Dating From Your Own Pool

[siam-i-am]

Now before i met these girls my previous GF was a warm, kind, selfless very poor Thai girl and she said to me "Why you not get Thai lady middle class, you can get one so easy, why you stay me?"

Sorry but I don't believe a word you say. Hi So-Low So maybe, but the above never. The words Mitty and Walter spring to mind

[Dustoff]

If the OP is like me, and I suspect he is, his "pool" is the Primal Swamp and any woman who will have us is a step up.

I couldn't care less about class or caste but have found that it is important to Thais and is a functional part of their culture which mostly came from India and Ceylon. I have also found that many upper class Thais fervently deny that a class system exists here and even if it did, they would never practice such prejudice.

Not all of them however. My wife had a 'friend' for years until the other lady (richer family, had a degree) told her outright that she only pretended to be her friend for her benefit.

Argh! A classic example of class arrogance and snobbery! My wife was crushed and is still hurting two years later.

[Dustoff]

... im no human analsyst but...

Hmm, I should hope not - sounds like something that requires delicate surgery.

There do seem to be a number of posters on here however who seem to think that you act like one.

Irritation-wise, that is...

[a2396]

The OP seems to have condemned the whole of middleclass womanhood (and especially those in the west) on the basis of two relationships - Perhaps if he had chosen these partners for their personality (not their dress size) he might have had a different experience to report. I think it would be instructive to hear from those women on their experience with the OP - These things are by their nature two sided.

An interesting question to ask is how many Westerners in Thailand actually have a choice in the class of women they meet?

I doubt that the vast majority do on the basis that the majority do not come into social contact with middleclass Thai women - John David Morley discusses this and the impact it has on the foreigner's perception, experiences and choices in a foreign country in his book Pictures from the Water Trade

The synopsis is that as a foreigner your social interaction in [Thailand] starts in 'Hotels, Bars, Restaurants' [What the Japanese refer to as the Water Trade], he also discusses the difficulty of moving from that social circle to the wider community and how many choose not to progress their social circle.

My own observation is that while I have worked with many foreigners in offices full of well educated and middle class Thais, hence having direct contact with these middleclass women (and importantly the wide social circle of friends and relatives outside the office) - Interestingly very few of those foreigners chose to date from the pool of well educated middleclass women they were meeting, choosing rather to select partners from 'The Water Trade'.

I've been in many discussions with foreign colleagues on why they don't want to date the middleclass woman they are being introduced to (Introductions being so very important) - The reasons have been many, not wanting to have a relationship at work is clearly one, but I think not wanting to have partner who is on an equal footing is another. Choosing a partner from 'The Water Trade' perhaps leaves the guy believing he is in control.

But it is a choice that comes with its own restrictions.

There could be any number of really wonderful very poor women who would make great wives but that maybe would never be comfortable in the occasional social function I must do, or if I get transferred to Singapore or Europe would have trouble adjusting, etc.

I know of three highly qualified expats in high profile career positions who have married Thai women from 'The Water Trade' only to find what Valjean says above is a huge issue. Moving into each other's life is not easy if you are not 'equipped' by education and upbringing to do so.

And its not just about career and social image - Marriage and relationships are also about having and raising children. Since we are in the main part talking about Foreign men marrying Thai women we might be mindful of something Ghandi said 'When you educate a woman you educate a family' - The corollary is also true –often tragically so.

Good post. For those Farnags, who are employed here in LOS in some professionlal capacity, they may have some opportuntiy to mix with middle or upper class Thai ladies. I think the majority of Farangs, who are are selecting ladies, do not have such opportunity, ie they may be retired, hold lessor status & pay level jobs (such as English teachers) or be living overseas & choosing ladies from the internet. For such Farangs, the percentage of various "water trade" girls is much higher. It is not easy to cross social lines here, not even for Thais.

[WaiWai]

analsyst

Perhaps you can offer a definition of "farnags", Dustoff.

(no offence to the authors of the typos intended)

[jackmuu]

Race and class only matter to bigots and racists.

Very true

[calibanjr.]

Race and class only matter to bigots and racists.

Very true

Why I think this is a valuable thread. I'm from an overly-analytical (debatable, I'm probably on your side) generation from an overly-analytical (debatable, I'm probably on your side) area (Boston, notice how I don't even bother calling it the US at this point in U.S. history).

Race and class only matter consciously to bigots and racists who (if we're lucky) only spout easy-to-spot platitudes, etc. I would make the argument (easily made since it is really PopSoc101) that race and class matter to everybody. I can fill in the blanks later, if requested (doubtful).

[thai_narak]

you watch too much thai soft operas where the poor is always the good gurl... this is not always the case in real life.

[jackmuu]

you watch too much thai soft operas where the poor is always the good gurl... this is not always the case in real life.

Anyone who watches that crap is not in touch with reality anyway...

[Jersey_UK]

Social Class important or not? For me, no.

"Class" important? - yes. and IME not restriced to Social background.

Have met plenty of HISO Anglos who IMO had no "class", no matter what they or their peers thought.

I guess however that I am more comfortable socially with the lower social classes - esp. BG's from Isaan, IMO their scoial class and origins are a lot of what makes many of them fun to hang with - I like down to earth ............so why did I marry a woman from Bangkok who is arguably not from a working class background?.....because she has "class"

Class War? I'm up for it

[bendix]

A <deleted> can come from any social group.

As the OP more than adequately illustrates.

C'mon, Bendix. I'm a regular and know you're a bit of a curmudgeon, but usually worth a read, even though we're quite often not on the same page opinion-wise. That kind of a throw-away critique (implying the insult of the "tool" post you used) isn't up to your standards. The OP has addressed a topic that is relevant (though obviously not novel) to us strangers in a strange land. I will agree that it is infelicitously worded, but the T word isn't really applicable. Yet.

My apologies for disappointing your calibanjr. I will try much harder in future.

However, in my defence the original post was trite, meaningless and designed only to show what a top bloke he is for dating only 'salt of the earth' type girls. Throw in some patronising platitudes mimicing the way his thai gfs speak bargirl English, and . . well . . . . my opinion remains the same.

[Dustoff]

analsyst

Perhaps you can offer a definition of "farnags", Dustoff.

(no offence to the authors of the typos intended)

No prob, WeeWee.

I hoped someone would ask..

Far-nag n. Farangs who annoy by constant scolding, complaining, or urging.

2. Nags who get perty far out there.

Life is fun, ain't it?

(edited to eliminate the part that says this post has been edited)

Oh, crap...

Edited August 11, 2007 by Dustoff

[WaiWai]

No prob, WeeWee.

I hoped someone would ask..

Far-nag n. Farangs who annoy by constant scolding, complaining, or urging.

2. Nags who get perty far out there.

Nice work, Duckoff .

[tamsin]

very wealthy middle class and stunningly beautiful size 8's, one was 19 the other 24,

I would never boast about these girls

i think you were ... picrk

[ColPyat]

I never met so many stuck up snobbish pricks as the farangs in Thailand screaming "My girlfriend has a degree and a car!"

Yes.

And those snobs never fail to amuse me.

I never played the class game back in the west - why should i start here? Just because some quarters of Thai society are still stuck in archaic feudalism doesn't mean that i have to be as well.

As long as the partnership works - what does it matter which class the partners have been born into?

[qwertz]

The true snob never rests.

There is always a higher goal to attain.

And there are by the same token,

Always more and more people to look down on.

Sebastian Chamfort

[mellow1]

Why don't you just go for a girl you like and are attracted to.The hel_l with all the other bullshit.

[bkkmadness]

I never met so many stuck up snobbish pricks as the farangs in Thailand screaming "My girlfriend has a degree and a car!"

Yes.

And those snobs never fail to amuse me.

I never played the class game back in the west - why should i start here? Just because some quarters of Thai society are still stuck in archaic feudalism doesn't mean that i have to be as well.

And those snobs never played the game back home either, because most of them couldn't. But they come over here and suddenly class becomes everything.

It's not always about playing up to the Thais though, in fact I see most farangs playing the class game because they are trying to prove something to other farangs.

You can see clearly with many comments on this forum how snobbish farang are in Thailand when it comes to Thai women (or even their own friends). Countless a post on this forum contains the words "my middle class educated friends/girlfriend/wife etc."

Also do it seems to be the case that if a girl is studying at uni then she's automatically middle class, and god forbid she drives a car, then she's Hi So!

Edited August 11, 2007 by bkkmadness

[rogerman]

PS I am not aiming to start a class war but after reading many posts on here the majority of TV members seem to believe there is a definite difference between the classes in Thailand.

The majority of TV posters are idiots.

People want to stop worrying about classes and whether their gfs are thai chinese and just get on with finding someone compatible. I never met so many stuck up snobbish pricks as the farangs in Thailand screaming "My girlfriend has a degree and a car!"

I couldn't agree with you more.....nothing worse than yet another dopey "no it all" farang mouthing off that he knows better than others..... i know a guy at sarasas school thats like this. He met this girl in a bar....she told him she loved him within half an hour now he'll marry her lol. he'll buy a house in issan after he marries her.....what he doesn't realise is thats she's earning more than he is........And he thinks she's studying hairdressing (which he paid for).....three guesses what she's doing

[lannarebirth]

The British continue to be the most class conscious society on earth. You've managed to find a way to make all the classes you divide yourselves into unattractive.

[chinthee]

I don't necessarily think all the posters on this thread who state their partners are educated, etc., are doing so to brag or for class distinction reasons. They mostly do it just to differentiate that their spouse or partner is not a BG. This differentiation makes some difference in the discussion of various topics at hand. I admit though, that many of us, myself included, have done that in a knee-jerk reaction to clearly state that our partners are not BGs. That is pretty stupid and I admit it.

I think it's really stupid to see farangs here attempting to gain face or acceptance into hi-so groups. I know one very well-off, but honestly quite unattractive guy (an acquaintance not friend) who was so intent on doing this, he basically sponsored a Chula uni girl in a mia noi fashion, bought her a beemer etc., and because she was a light-skinned, skinny bangkok Thai-Chinese, he thought people would respect him more. Just the opposite happened. Most saw through her for the hoe she was, and everyone I knew thought he was a weak, shallow status-seeker. The Thais he was so desperately seeking acceptance from were laughing behind his back.

I agree with posters who just don't give a sh!t. Live your life and enjoy. Don't involve your wife in any business-related socializing if you have reason to believe you will be embarrased.

Edited August 11, 2007 by chinthee

[jackmuu]

The British continue to be the most class conscious society on earth. You've managed to find a way to make all the classes you divide yourselves into unattractive.

What a cock!

[Jockstar]

I only date my own pull! :D

[bkkmadness]

I don't necessarily think all the posters on this thread who state their partners are educated, etc., are doing so to brag or for class distinction reasons.

Well I wasn't particulary talking about this thread and I agree that sometimes it's stated because it does effect the thread. But most do it for bragging rights, just bring it up even though it has no relevance at all.

I read a post from some guy the other day talking about his gf, he said "but she's not from Issan" when defending something she had done, as if it makes the slightest bit of difference. There's even a general feeling amongst many farang that if you have a gf from Issan that's a bad thing and she must be in the trade. Of course the real brag is saying that your gf is not only Chinese Thai but was also born in Bangkok.

[LaoPo]

I'm surprised that most posts are about class and style or social status.

Class & style comes from within a person and not social status, whether inherited or not.

Class & style is a natural self-esteem and you don't have to be born rich to possess it. Most of the time it comes from the parents who have the same self-esteem and/or are proud people; nothing, but nothing wrong with that. On the contrary I would say.

Education is something else; it's not so easy to marry-and-survive with a -much lower- educated partner, for both of them.

If the lower educated partner has no urge to educate him/herself more and more during the relationship (married or not) and the more educated one has no problems with that, fine.

That's particular the case if both partners decide (1 West/1 Thai/Easterner) to live in the Eastern country since the more educated partner would, in most cases, live amongst the circles of the lesser educated.

However, if both partners would live in the West and the lesser educated partner is confronted with the higher educated circles of the other, it could lead to problems and he/she could feel the differences in a painful way.

But, that's the same with people in the West and has nothing to do with International relationships; the latter are more difficult because of differences in culture and language and education also.

It's a proven fact that International relations have a higher chance of failure than non-International relations, because of those differences.

Just IMHO.

edit:

If you have some time to spare at your pool-side, read this:

http://marriage.about.com/cs/intercultural...ternational.htm

LaoPo

Edited August 11, 2007 by LaoPo

[dukkha]

Why not try the typing pool, or even the pool table...cant one like a person for who they are

without all the ascibed status etc...and if you do go into the deep end of the pool be sure you

can stay afloat.. Dukkha

[chinthee]

The British continue to be the most class conscious society on earth. You've managed to find a way to make all the classes you divide yourselves into unattractive.

What a cock!

I wouldn't call someone a chicken for stating the obvious. Let's ask it this way. Can you name a more class conscious major modern society that has its populace locked into less attractive class categories ? One of my British partners once stated it to me like this: "As a social climbing brit, you want to appear that you have money, but not that you have had to work for it." Is that the ideal class you aspire to?

The problem with Brits is that they don't have a lot of chance to move into other classes that they desire so much, unlike more modern places. Ok, let it loose boys.

[LaoPo]

Can you name a more class conscious major modern society that has its populace locked into less attractive class categories ?

India maybe?

LaoPo

[chinthee]

Can you name a more class conscious major modern society that has its populace locked into less attractive class categories ?

India maybe?

LaoPo

Yeah, that's really messed up. But, they're all caught up in Hindi caste distinction and economic level discrimination more than legacy class distinctions as they are in Britain.

[November Rain]

The British continue to be the most class conscious society on earth. You've managed to find a way to make all the classes you divide yourselves into unattractive.

What a cock!

I wouldn't call someone a chicken for stating the obvious. Let's ask it this way. Can you name a more class conscious major modern society that has its populace locked into less attractive class categories ? One of my British partners once stated it to me like this: "As a social climbing brit, you want to appear that you have money, but not that you have had to work for it." Is that the ideal class you aspire to?

The problem with Brits is that they don't have a lot of chance to move into other classes that they desire so much, unlike more modern places. Ok, let it loose boys.

Will a girl do?

I still don't get this class thing. Another thing I don't get is how it keeps getting brought back to Brits. I can only assume that the people that keep commenting on the British class system have been watching too many Merchant Ivory films. I'm British & I genuinely don't know what class I am. Seriously. My parents & their families are both working class, but they worked to give me an education & any advantage they could. By the time my Dad died he was a director of a company. I now get no salary managing a non-profit org. So, what am I? Anyone like to categorise me? It's a ridiculous argument. People matter - class doesn't.