Kindness And Generosity In Thailand

[girlx]

i keep having friends who stay long term here tell me that if as a farang in thailand you are a kind and generous person, you will always be seen as a doormat and a sucker, and the thais will take you for all you are worth. i have found this to be true, personally, across all social classes and all over the country. thais call it being too "soft", with a snort of derision. being "good" doesn't seem to be a respected trait in this country as it is in my own. curious what you think...

[Etrigan]

Goodness is universal, not cultural. You would do well to remember that.

[girlx]

maybe but i am more interested in their general views as a culture. it seems it is more respected to be "hard" than "soft" here.

[Totster]

it seems it is more respected to be "hard" than "soft" here.

I suppose that would all depend on what areas one frequents...

totster

[bendix]

From a brief history of girlx's posts, it seems that everyone in Thailand is an evil bastard, except her. Classic victim mentality.

[girlx]

really, can you point out in any of my old posts where i said that please?

though i must admit, given recent happenings, i am starting to feel that way.

Edited August 15, 2007 by girlx

[girlx]

here's a quote from a friend's email- he has spent way more time in this country than i have:

I’ve found you have to show world class ruthlessness to these folk; if you give in, or show weakness they’ll cook you for dinner and invite their friends over to slurp the western soup.

yes they are ‘real’ people but the codes they live by are a little wonky – time and time again I see them respect the westerner who is ‘king/queen’ and totally use the one that opens himself to being nothing but an ATM/###### machine/status symbol. And Thais have a lot of hatred that can come out for sure – once they know it’s safe to ‘vent’ and that you can be manipulated – you may as well hang it up.

If you think they’re ever going to accept you, be real to you, respect you – (I think) you’re wrong. I know that’s a shallow thing to say, but sometimes life is easier if you play it cool and don’t make those attachments. You really are Queen – you look good, make a great western salary, have education and experience. If anyone ever abuses you you let them know you’re Queen and they can ###### right off right now. Never give in, never show that weakness, or if you show that weakness make sure the next second to show you’re hard.

depressing, i think.

[Totster]

depressing, i think.

Only if you believe it ..

totster

[kat]

Goodness is universal, not cultural. You would do well to remember that.

Actually, that's a very sweet sentiment, but not very realistic. It doesn't really hold much more relevance here than an advertisement jingle. If that were true, we wouldn't have such disparate reactions to calamity and tragedy, such as rushing to help a dying or afflicted person in the street or not. These differences are not necessarily based on "goodness" or badness, just beliefs. As an individual, I can make a decision to reject these beliefs, analyze them, and judge them, or not.

From a brief history of girlx's posts, it seems that everyone in Thailand is an evil bastard, except her. Classic victim mentality.

ok, wait a minute, that can easily be flipped around. I really don't think you have a superior view, only one that represents your particular interests here, like everyone else.

[thedi]

if as a farang in thailand you are a kind and generous person, you will always be seen as a doormat and a sucker, and the thais will take you for all you are worth. i have found this to be true, personally, across all social classes and all over the country.

This was also my personal experience.

I got the impression that Thais distinguish between people which are close to them and strangers. Close people (family, friends) are expected to be generous and are treated generously. Strangers are not expected to be generous and hence are not treated generously in return.

If you do not follow the pattern of normal conduct, you act strange. If you act strange and against your own interests, this suggests that you are not very clever. Why should a stupid be respected?

This is independent from Thailand. There may be a difference in the Thai society in weighting the belonging to the same group higher then in the West. But kindness is not considered 'stupid' per se.

In principle, it is not different to the west: if you give a 1000 $ to a punk begging in a street in any town in the west, you will not be respected by spectators, but rather looked at as a bit crazy - even by the punk on the receiving end

[Ulysses G.]

I pay much more than other employers in Chiang Mai and have my staff help me make rules about their employement, although we try to have as few rules as possible as long as things are going well.

All I can say is that they NEVER take advantage of me and go out of their way to save me money. They even refuse extra money to do extra things on a regular basis, because "you already pay us well".

A lot of it is because I have two great managers who do the hiring and keep the staff motivated in a positive way, but it is certainly possible to treat Thais fairly and not get stomped on for being too soft.

[Suszzy]

i keep having friends who stay long term here tell me that if as a farang in thailand you are a kind and generous person, you will always be seen as a doormat and a sucker, and the thais will take you for all you are worth. i have found this to be true, personally, across all social classes and all over the country. thais call it being too "soft", with a snort of derision. being "good" doesn't seem to be a respected trait in this country as it is in my own. curious what you think...

you sound a bit unhappy.

i don't believe all thais are the same and i think your friends are probably

giving you the wrong info.

chill...smile

[lannarebirth]

My observation is that doing good is indeed respected here in LOS. Being stupid or delusional isn't. So many time here, I see farangs "doing good" to satisfy a desire in themselves rather than addressing true need. Doing good should be it's own reward,.

[sbk]

if as a farang in thailand you are a kind and generous person, you will always be seen as a doormat and a sucker, and the thais will take you for all you are worth. i have found this to be true, personally, across all social classes and all over the country.

This was also my personal experience.

I got the impression that Thais distinguish between people which are close to them and strangers. Close people (family, friends) are expected to be generous and are treated generously. Strangers are not expected to be generous and hence are not treated generously in return.

If you do not follow the pattern of normal conduct, you act strange. If you act strange and against your own interests, this suggests that you are not very clever. Why should a stupid be respected?

This is independent from Thailand. There may be a difference in the Thai society in weighting the belonging to the same group higher then in the West. But kindness is not considered 'stupid' per se.

In principle, it is not different to the west: if you give a 1000 $ to a punk begging in a street in any town in the west, you will not be respected by spectators, but rather looked at as a bit crazy - even by the punk on the receiving end

Excellent point here and one that many seem to not take into consideration. I have been on the receiving end of much kindness and generosity from Thai people. All of whom are either relatives or close neighbors. But then, I have established myself and am known to be here for the long haul. Something that, at least where I live, matters.

[OlRedEyes]

Goodness is universal, not cultural. You would do well to remember that.

[canadiangirl]

I got the impression that Thais distinguish between people which are close to them and strangers. Close people (family, friends) are expected to be generous and are treated generously. Strangers are not expected to be generous and hence are not treated generously in return.

If you do not follow the pattern of normal conduct, you act strange. If you act strange and against your own interests, this suggests that you are not very clever. Why should a stupid be respected?

This is a very interesting comment thedi.

This is something I've been wondering about myself, in terms of a future in Thailand. My feeling is that Thais are much more deeply invested in their families, and much less invested in their friends than a farang in a similar situation.That that process of -- say -- young people moving to the big city, and having a group of friends be "like a family" together doesn't happen very much (I might be wrong.) I think people save their "deep connections" for their family, and have much more superficial relationships with their friends. So I wonder for myself, unless I happened to marry a Thai, if I would not always be "floating on the surface" of things, never really belonging?

As least within Chinese culture, it is very much true that there is an in-group/out-group mentality, where people are VERY tight with their family and close friends, and basically don't give a s* about strangers.

If they see a homeless person on the street, they would think "what have they done so that none of their friends/family are willing to help them?" They find that Westerns treat strangers a lot better than a Chinese person in the same situation would, but treat their friends a lot worse.

[kat]

Yes. I am going to follow up on what SBK and Thedi mentioned. Thailand can be a rough place if you are forever on the outside circle. There are very real distinctions between strangers, intermediate associates, and family and close friends. I think part of the contrasting views and experience of Thailand depends on where you find yourselves on that continuum. As foreigners, we are at various times on any one of those, but might spend most of our time on the outer loop the moment we leave our insulated nest/family/spouse, especially if we are not married or related here.

That's why we can have such different experiences, but neither one is really wrong. I think there's a lot to be learned by the way a society treats its strangers.

Edited August 15, 2007 by kat

[Nignoy]

i keep having friends who stay long term here tell me that if as a farang in thailand you are a kind and generous person, you will always be seen as a doormat and a sucker, and the thais will take you for all you are worth. i have found this to be true, personally, across all social classes and all over the country. thais call it being too "soft", with a snort of derision. being "good" doesn't seem to be a respected trait in this country as it is in my own. curious what you think...

I remember well, being stranded in the early 60,s with 6 other soldiers , in an area what is now called Pattaya, our vehicle had broken down, after 2 days we ran out of food and water, the local villagers looked after us for 8 days until we got help from a passing USAAF truck, they treated us well and when we were eventually recovered , they would accept no payment or gifts,we have met with this type of genourosity many times over the last 40 years, have never been treated as a thai doormat or a sucker. But I have met a lot of farangs who have just maybe they have deserved it!!Maybe you are just being treated the same way you try to treat the Thai,s Nignoy

[sutnyod]

My observation is that doing good is indeed respected here in LOS. Being stupid or delusional isn't. So many time here, I see farangs "doing good" to satisfy a desire in themselves rather than addressing true need. Doing good should be it's own reward,.

Yes! In addition there is a difference between doing good and doing good. You should help people if it enforces the good in them. That means you should help a decent person who was befallen by bad luck, but you should not help somebody (financially or otherwise) if he/she will use your assistance to pursue bad habits (gambling, cheating, drinking). Maybe the statement of the OP is true for the latter case, but if you have some experience here you will be able to distinguish the two.

edited typos

Edited August 15, 2007 by sutnyod

[kat]

i keep having friends who stay long term here tell me that if as a farang in thailand you are a kind and generous person, you will always be seen as a doormat and a sucker, and the thais will take you for all you are worth. i have found this to be true, personally, across all social classes and all over the country. thais call it being too "soft", with a snort of derision. being "good" doesn't seem to be a respected trait in this country as it is in my own. curious what you think...

I remember well, being stranded in the early 60,s with 6 other soldiers , in an area what is now called Pattaya, our vehicle had broken down, after 2 days we ran out of food and water, the local villagers looked after us for 8 days until we got help from a passing USAAF truck, they treated us well and when we were eventually recovered , they would accept no payment or gifts,we have met with this type of genourosity many times over the last 40 years, have never been treated as a thai doormat or a sucker. But I have met a lot of farangs who have just maybe they have deserved it!!Maybe you are just being treated the same way you try to treat the Thai,s Nignoy

oh, right, so if something bad befalls you, it's your fault. There is a lot of good in Thailand, but this kind of thinking represents the very worst.

[bendix]

i keep having friends who stay long term here tell me that if as a farang in thailand you are a kind and generous person, you will always be seen as a doormat and a sucker, and the thais will take you for all you are worth. i have found this to be true, personally, across all social classes and all over the country. thais call it being too "soft", with a snort of derision. being "good" doesn't seem to be a respected trait in this country as it is in my own. curious what you think...

I remember well, being stranded in the early 60,s with 6 other soldiers , in an area what is now called Pattaya, our vehicle had broken down, after 2 days we ran out of food and water, the local villagers looked after us for 8 days until we got help from a passing USAAF truck, they treated us well and when we were eventually recovered , they would accept no payment or gifts,we have met with this type of genourosity many times over the last 40 years, have never been treated as a thai doormat or a sucker. But I have met a lot of farangs who have just maybe they have deserved it!!Maybe you are just being treated the same way you try to treat the Thai,s Nignoy

oh, right, so if something bad befalls you, it's your fault. There is a lot of good in Thailand, but this kind of thinking represents the very worst.

I refer the honorable members to my story of my lost mobile phone at Suvarnabumi, posted yesterday.

[kat]

Where is it, 'o honorable one?

*Found it: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...33904&st=30

Edited August 15, 2007 by kat

[cdnvic]

From a brief history of girlx's posts, it seems that everyone in Thailand is an evil bastard, except her. Classic victim mentality.

It's only been for that brief history. Aside from a recent rough patch, she's not normally like that.

[November Rain]

I haven't found that the Thais look down on farang for trying to do good things. Of course, the analogy of giving the "punk" $1,000 - but then, anyone would think a donor of that ilk to be crazy.

I think that Lannarebirth had a good point when he said that the act of doing good should be its own reward. If someone is looking for praise from anyone, then, not only do they have the wrong motivation, but they won't get it.

I generally get a lot of positive feedback from Thais (far more than from farang in fact). Sure, the cynical could say they're laughing behind my back. I don't think they are, but if they are - so what? It doesn't affect me. I get offers of help all the time. Complete strangers offer to give me lifts to places (no, not pervs!), and the Thais I know well are unfailingly helpful, even when it puts them out. I would never expect, or get, this amount of help or neighbourliness in my own country. I think a lot of Thais actually like to feel that they've helped or "protected" a farang. That has been my experience anyway. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Edit - BTW, girlx - I've just read the excerpt from your friend's email more thoroughly. I think he sounds a bit burnt out. I felt equally negative to HK & the HK Chinese before I left there. Having visited HK recently, I now recognise it was pure stress & burn-out on my part. I think when you feel that negative towards the society & people you're living with, it's time to recognise it & move on.

Edited August 15, 2007 by November Rain

[Sanpatong]

Girl.. I've said this before (as someone else ) but I think it's also largely the environment you cho(o)se to be in. You've in the past been in an environment where most Thais you meet are migrants, hustlers, people out for a buck and with no fall-back family or social structure in place. That's not an environment where you can really grow without being either ruthless, or be cut down/taken advantage of. I find it VERY noteworthy that your sentiments are now very much the same as is so common among Western men who live in places like Pattaya; again an environement where everyone they meet is a migrant, hustler, people out for a buck and with no fall-back family or social structure in place. Those can be very negative environments.

I understand you moved to Chiang Mai to stay for a while recently; give it some time. I know it's not your scene, but do give it some time and meet people (Thais also, and then people actually FROM Chiang Mai or otherwise established in the region, as well as foreign women who stay in Chiang Mai longer term.). For a quick fix of a 'bar & bungalow scene' it's not that far to Pai for the weekend.

But don't date the trekking guides.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Sanpatong

[kat]

I think there are many personal examples of kindness, but culturally I really don't think girlx is far off the mark. Have you ever observed how underlings are treated in Thai society? Have you ever tried to analyze why? Furthermore, have you ever witnessed how a former powerless person behaves towards their new underlings, once they have a little power? It's quite instructive.

[Sanpatong]

I think there are many personal examples of kindness, but culturally I really don't think girlx is far off the mark. Have you ever observed how underlings are treated in Thai society? Have you ever tried to analyze why? Furthermore, have you ever witnessed how a former powerless person behaves towards their new underlings, once they have a little power? It's quite instructive.

Good points, thanks for highlighting. Indeed people who are 'just above', or 'recently got above' poor-people level can act so obnoxious, self centered and generally nasty that it's completely clear to everyone that they're NOWHERE near truly higher class people who find no need to constantly put down anyone they perceive as being lower than them, and suck up to anyone they perceive as being higher than them.

TRUE classy people actually are very respected by 'underlings' and for good reasons. Class is not about how much money you have or how much power you have, it's also very much about how many people actually respect you and by how much.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Sanpatong

[chinthee]

I think there are many personal examples of kindness, but culturally I really don't think girlx is far off the mark. Have you ever observed how underlings are treated in Thai society? Have you ever tried to analyze why? Furthermore, have you ever witnessed how a former powerless person behaves towards their new underlings, once they have a little power? It's quite instructive.

I've witnessed this hierarchical, master/slave behaviour to be mostly in Bangkok. Down south, I really haven't seen that as much. Also, this is not just a Thai trait. You can witness that in many places across Asia.

Also, I've always been liberal in dispensing kindness and generosity in simple ways. It has always worked in my favor. However, I also project an air of authority and Thais immediately sense it. Dressing well helps too. Another good thing to do that I found always pays dividends is to do some simple kind things for the lower echeleon Thais in your life. For example, I frequently drive out early mornings to buy Jok (pork/rice soup). I sometimes buy an extra bag (25 Baht.). I always give it to my valets/doormen, maid with a smile. They love me for that, and go out of their way to help in return. I never suspect they are laughing behind my back. They all snap to attention when I show up, unlike their response to some other people.

Sometimes I do the same and buy Gai Yang (grilled chicken) and Som Tam, Larb or other Isaan dishes. All cheap, but make a lasting impression, as these people are rarely shown appreciation it seems, and especially by farangs.

Never had a single problem in Thailand. Never.

[kat]

I think there are many personal examples of kindness, but culturally I really don't think girlx is far off the mark. Have you ever observed how underlings are treated in Thai society? Have you ever tried to analyze why? Furthermore, have you ever witnessed how a former powerless person behaves towards their new underlings, once they have a little power? It's quite instructive.

I've witnessed this hierarchical, master/slave behaviour to be mostly in Bangkok. Down south, I really haven't seen that as much. Also, this is not just a Thai trait. You can witness that in many places across Asia.

Also, I've always been liberal in dispensing kindness and generosity in simple ways. It has always worked in my favor. However, I also project an air of authority and Thais immediately sense it. Dressing well helps too. Another good thing to do that I found always pays dividends is to do some simple kind things for the lower echeleon Thais in your life. For example, I frequently drive out early mornings to buy Jok (pork/rice soup). I sometimes buy an extra bag (25 Baht.). I always give it to my valets/doormen, maid with a smile. They love me for that, and go out of their way to help in return. I never suspect they are laughing behind my back. They all snap to attention when I show up, unlike their response to some other people.

Sometimes I do the same and buy Gai Yang (grilled chicken) and Som Tam, Larb or other Isaan dishes. All cheap, but make a lasting impression, as these people are rarely shown appreciation it seems, and especially by farangs.

*When I left Thailand, I gave away tons of stuff rather than sell it. I gave an fairly nice dvd player to the manager of my building. I had beautiful relationships with the Thais who worked around me, and they were always helpful. With one exception: the actual people who owned and lived in the condo/building, and would come up with half-baked schemes to try and scam me out of money.

Never had a single problem in Thailand. Never.

Yes, I used to do the same for my doormen and condo staff. It was fun to make them happy, and give them good food. Never had a problem with them, except for one guy that didn't understand his boundaries for awhile. My problems always began when I was travelling or a stranger somewhere.

*I also gave away tons of stuff when I was moving, rather than sell it. I gave the manager of my building a very decent dvd player, and gave some luggage to the doormen. I had beautiful relationships with the Thai staff that worked around me. My problems began with the owners and some of the people who lived in the condo, who came up with some half-baked scheme to cheat me out of money. The owner didn't refund my deposit, and tried to give me some round-about story. I just stayed longer without paying rent and got my money's worth.

Edited August 15, 2007 by kat

[chinthee]

I think there are many personal examples of kindness, but culturally I really don't think girlx is far off the mark. Have you ever observed how underlings are treated in Thai society? Have you ever tried to analyze why? Furthermore, have you ever witnessed how a former powerless person behaves towards their new underlings, once they have a little power? It's quite instructive.

I've witnessed this hierarchical, master/slave behaviour to be mostly in Bangkok. Down south, I really haven't seen that as much. Also, this is not just a Thai trait. You can witness that in many places across Asia.

Also, I've always been liberal in dispensing kindness and generosity in simple ways. It has always worked in my favor. However, I also project an air of authority and Thais immediately sense it. Dressing well helps too. Another good thing to do that I found always pays dividends is to do some simple kind things for the lower echeleon Thais in your life. For example, I frequently drive out early mornings to buy Jok (pork/rice soup). I sometimes buy an extra bag (25 Baht.). I always give it to my valets/doormen, maid with a smile. They love me for that, and go out of their way to help in return. I never suspect they are laughing behind my back. They all snap to attention when I show up, unlike their response to some other people.

Sometimes I do the same and buy Gai Yang (grilled chicken) and Som Tam, Larb or other Isaan dishes. All cheap, but make a lasting impression, as these people are rarely shown appreciation it seems, and especially by farangs.

*When I left Thailand, I gave away tons of stuff rather than sell it. I gave an fairly nice dvd player to the manager of my building. I had beautiful relationships with the Thais who worked around me, and they were always helpful. With one exception: the actual people who owned and lived in the condo/building, and would come up with half-baked schemes to try and scam me out of money.

Never had a single problem in Thailand. Never.

Yes, I used to do the same for my doormen and condo staff. It was fun to make them happy, and give them good food. Never had a problem with them, except for one guy that didn't understand his boundaries for awhile. My problems always began when I was travelling or a stranger somewhere.

*I also gave away tons of stuff when I was moving, rather than sell it. I gave the manager of my building a very decent dvd player, and gave some luggage to the doormen. I had beautiful relationships with the Thai staff that worked around me. My problems began with the owners and some of the people who lived in the condo, who came up with some half-baked scheme to cheat me out of money. The owner didn't refund my deposit, and tried to give me some round-about story. I just stayed longer without paying rent and got my money's worth.

That's unfortunate. However, regarding giving stuff when moving, I accidently found a great solution to disposing of "junk" you no longer want. A few months ago, my relatively expensive printer/scanner, etc., gave out, and rather than fix it, I just wanted to replace it. I was carrying it myself down to the rubbish bins, and one of the doormen I like spotted me. He told me he could get money for the components of the printer and I happily gave it to him. Same thing later with an expensive desk chair went bust. He was happy to take it off me. Seems they know where to squeeze some money out of these items, and told me the rubbish collectors would have done the same. Glad to help someone I know who deserves it.