Gay Shades Of Grey

[Rickys]

Hi Guys,

I need a bit or help in terms of under the whole shades of “Shade of Grey” issue

Situation is I have known my Thai guy for almost 2 years now. We have a good friendship, our relationship is not exclusive for various reasons, distance being one of them, but at least when we are together usually 2 -3 times a year we enjoy the time we spend together. But the relationship isn’t the issue.

I normally speak with my Thai guy once a week and early last week he mentioned he was going to go home for 2 weeks and has taken his annual leave entitlement from work to do so. Not a problem, so I asked if it was OK to call him and I got the response “sure” but “mobile phone coverage in the south is not very good and there is no coverage when it rains!”

Now from a few questions I asked I know he’s not really going home, he’s going elsewhere, and I think he knows I know. I don’t mind him going elsewhere with others I just wish he would be honest with me.

Last year there was a similar situation where he told me he apparently went to a place for work in the middle of Thailand where there was no mobile coverage as it was between 2 hills! Turns out he actually went overseas! Which he told me afterwards. Once again I was OK with this and told him it was fine. He said he felt guilty and I said no need to feel guilty, I just asked him be honest with me in the future and he agreed he would.

I guess when push comes to shove I don’t liked being lied to. I am sure in 2 weeks time I will find out where he has been, but its upset me that he can’t be up-front and tell me. I guess loosing face come into play here as well.

No point in me getting angry and cross as that’s not the Thai way and it will get me no-where and I am trying to approach it with a “Cool Heart”

Of course I could be completely wrong and maybe he is going home after all and it’s just my suspicious western mind working overtime.

I’ve just got a million things going around in my head as to why he wouldn’t tell the truth. Any guys on here that could give me a bit of insight into things and maybe how to approach it would be appreciated.

Ohh to look inside a Thai guys mind!

[Kaojai]

Of course I could be completely wrong and maybe he is going home after all and it’s just my suspicious western mind working overtime.

No two people are ever going to be 100% honest with each other. It may just be more convenient to bend the truth or to save feelings or because we tell the other what we think he wants to hear.

Without knowing anything about either of you it's difficult to say, but in most farang/Thai relationships there is a certain amount of built-in dishonesty. I have heard (or read) some older farangs lament that all they want is for their Thai friend to be truthful. I doubt very much that's what they want. What they want is selective honesty.

My relationship with my Thai friend began in similar circumstances. I would spend three or four months a year here and he would spend that time with me. Now I live here full-time, but we spend time together and time apart because it would drive both of us absolutely bonkers if we were together 24/7/365.

On those few occasions when I thought he was being untruthful with me, I've turned out to be wrong 90% of the time and the other 10%, on reflection, were trivial things.

If you discover that he is being dishonest on a regular basis over things that matter to you, then be upfront with him about it. The Thai mind is not as exotic as so many people like to think. After being together for more than five years I don't find my friend's way of thinking to be unfathomable to my Western mind. I think that's too often a convenient excuse.

If the problem can't be resolved then you have to decide whether it's worth living with ... or decide to move on. But don't let unsubstantiated suspicions become a problem. I've been wrong so many times that I now automatically assume that I've misunderstood something if it bothers me. Before you confront him, confront yourself about what you really expect from the relationship and from him and decide if you're being realistic. There's probably room for improvement on both sides.

[ProThaiExpat]

There was a recent thread that treated the issue of Thai g/fs and b/fs and their concept of truth, white lies and the like. The consensus was that Thais in a relationship, have a different value system when it comes to degrees of truth and the need to tell the whole truth. There are sins of omission and commission as well. If your b/f thinks his activities, when you are not around, are his business and not yours, he would have no difficulty keeping those activities from you with white lies as to what he is doing, when you press him.

In all honesty, do your really have a right to monitor his activities or require him to tell all to you when you are, at best, a holiday lover? I would be surprised if you posted information to the effect that you had a holiday lover that shared with you all his "activities" when you weren't around. That is just not the Thai way.

[popshirt]

On those few occasions when I thought he was being untruthful with me, I've turned out to be wrong 90% of the time and the other 10%, on reflection, were trivial things.

Absolutely my experience also. In fact your entire response is very insightful and right on the money as far as I'm concerned.

[Scott]

Basically, you have a dishonest friend, so you might want to be a little careful. Selective honesty is one thing; saying your going shopping (but failing to mention in another country), is quite another.

Nobody likes being lied too. It's hurtful and disrespectful. There are lots of ways of skirting around the truth.

My motto is "don't ask, if you really don't want to know."

Best of luck to you.

[PeaceBlondie]

Probably all cultures tend not to "tell the whole truth" all the time, and it appears to many Westerners that Thais tell less of the entire truth than we idealize ourselves as doing.

We excuse ourselves without explaing, "I'm going to defecate." The little white lies that we always tell seem small to us because we always tell them. Many Thais prefer not to answer anything that might embarrass, might cause anybody of importance to lose face, etc.

My boyfriend has countless reasons to excuse himself from my presence. He's going to help a friend prepare a funeral, he's going to take our friend's wife shopping, go see his mother, goto the temple, shop, eat lunch, etc. Maybe he doesn't exactly do exactly that, but I don't care.

If you have an open relationship, he not only isn't going to tell you, he assumes you don't want to know the other guy was better.

[Rickys]

Helpful words so far guys, thank you. Even if some were tough to hear / read.

I guess when push comes to shove its the "bending the truth" bit I don't like. OK, he is in Thailand and I am thousands of miles in the UK and I by no stretch of the imagination control him or would want to. As ProThaiExpat states I guess have no right to monitor his activities and we all have our own lives and often tell little white lies, or whopping big grey ones from time to time.

I just thought me and my Thai guy were open and honest enough with each other to be truthful. I have told him countless times its not a problem if he goes visiting, I'm not going to get angry or upset, I would just prefer to know he is safe wherever he is going. (Don't really want the details) I guess with the way the world thats the most important thing nowadays.

I guess he knows my soft spot for him and knows I would do anything for him and is probably playing on that a little, and he knows if he does tell me he's been somewhere I won't react badly. (Whether thats a good thing or bad thing I don't know) and that the bit I'm struggling with the most. The stupid thing in all this is he knows I know.

I guess I should get over myself, stop behaving like a lovesick teenager and just put it out of my mind. Nothing much I can do now. As Scott has said "don't ask, if you don't want to know"

I guess the situation is reversed when I am in Thailand and take him overseas for a break.

Who knows after spending time with someone else it might even prove to him that I am "one of the good guys" or it could go horribly wrong. (Fingers crossed its the first.)

Going to Thailand for the past 5 years I should know better after all this time.

[Krub]

Helpful words so far guys, thank you. Even if some were tough to hear / read.

I guess when push comes to shove its the "bending the truth" bit I don't like. OK, he is in Thailand and I am thousands of miles in the UK and I by no stretch of the imagination control him or would want to. As ProThaiExpat states I guess have no right to monitor his activities and we all have our own lives and often tell little white lies, or whopping big grey ones from time to time.

I just thought me and my Thai guy were open and honest enough with each other to be truthful. I have told him countless times its not a problem if he goes visiting, I'm not going to get angry or upset, I would just prefer to know he is safe wherever he is going. (Don't really want the details) I guess with the way the world thats the most important thing nowadays.

I guess he knows my soft spot for him and knows I would do anything for him and is probably playing on that a little, and he knows if he does tell me he's been somewhere I won't react badly. (Whether thats a good thing or bad thing I don't know) and that the bit I'm struggling with the most. The stupid thing in all this is he knows I know.

I guess I should get over myself, stop behaving like a lovesick teenager and just put it out of my mind. Nothing much I can do now. As Scott has said "don't ask, if you don't want to know"

I guess the situation is reversed when I am in Thailand and take him overseas for a break.

Who knows after spending time with someone else it might even prove to him that I am "one of the good guys" or it could go horribly wrong. (Fingers crossed its the first.)

Going to Thailand for the past 5 years I should know better after all this time.

Rickys,

Looks like you are in love

Good luck

[expatwannabe]

Rickys

Until you actually move in with him, you shouldn't assume he's anything more than a good friend you have sex with. Even if you move in together, he may continue to be evasive. Doesn't mean he has anything to hide, necessarily. But you can't negotiate the rules until you're living together.

I only began living with my bf a year and a half ago after a protracted long-distance relationship. Since moving in, my bf was upset that I wanted to know where he was all the time. But two things happened. First, I explained that I didn't care where he went, but that I needed to know for emergencies. Second, I told him that I would never tell him where I was going if he didn't also tell me where he'd be. That sort of changed the dynamic. Now we tell each other where we'll be all the time. It's not about checking up on each other. It's about keeping your partner informed - for emergencies or whatever.

Anyway, I don't think you have a right to do this until you move in together. And even then, it will take time.

EW

[FranklyNoMore]

Seems to me that your Thai guy has more than one punter on the go at the same time, a very common practice indeed among working boys and girls. It only becomes a problem if two of you book a holiday at the same time, then you might see the Thai version of Houdini or not depending on who has the biggest wallet.

[Rickys]

I know I am one of a few “friends” that visit the LOS. As “My Canadian friend” or my “French friends” sometimes slips out in conversation when we speak.

I am cool about this as long as I don’t hear any further details. I’ve also learnt not to ask too many questions as the brick wall comes up.

It was interesting when the coup happened last year. I happened to be with him at the time the amount of overseas phone calls and SMS’s he got from “overseas friends” to check he was OK was quite an eye opener. And he clearly felt a little awkward. Quite how he manages us all and a full time job!

I just find it difficult taming the green eyed monster sometimes and stopping my over-active imagination working overtime!

I guess when you have invested 2 years in a good friendship and learn to adapt to each other ways, its difficult not to feel a little hurt. (cue the violins!)

[Kaojai]

Situation is I have known my Thai guy for almost 2 years now. We have a good friendship, our relationship is not exclusive for various reasons, distance being one of them, but at least when we are together usually 2 -3 times a year we enjoy the time we spend together. But the relationship isn’t the issue.

I guess when you have invested 2 years in a good friendship and learn to adapt to each other ways, its difficult not to feel a little hurt. (cue the violins!)

Nothing personal, but you don't have a relationship, you are a customer who has a regular barboy or freelancer. Nothing wrong with that, but you exist only while the meter is running.

If you ever come to Thailand full-time, look for a full-time "friend" who is not a professional. At this point, any discussion about fidelity or loyalty is ridiculous. Every morning at the beach I buy fruit from the same lady, but we aren't choosing a table setting pattern we like or booking a suite at the Dusit Thani.

[Rickys]

Just though I should put things into context.

My friends works as a professional in an office based job. Works Monday to Friday, quite long hours, and seems to spend the rest of the time sleeping (which I guess is quiet natural for Thais!!) and has 2 weeks holiday a year.

He hates the bars and clubs with a passion, which suits me fine as its not really my scene either.

And we met via a "Social networking site".

[geriatrickid]

Just though I should put things into context.

My friends works as a professional in an office based job. Works Monday to Friday, quite long hours, and seems to spend the rest of the time sleeping (which I guess is quiet natural for Thais!!) and has 2 weeks holiday a year.

He hates the bars and clubs with a passion, which suits me fine as its not really my scene either.And we met via a "Social networking site".

Good for you (Not meant sarcastically). Just because he's Thai doesn't mean he doesn't suffer from the same stresses as any other "cubicle" dweller. His behaviour might just be a product of that. It seems to me that you have a realistic approach to the relationship, so don't worry. Stay the course and maintain your patience.

Some people may not appreciate or understand your relationship because all they know is the bar scene type of guy (or girl). One can't begrudge the guy some other friends, otherwise life can get lonely. They just might be that. If he's been your friend for 2 years, obviously you must be worth it, don't you think? Or maybe, you are that solid friend that serves as the anchor point in his life that gives him the confidence to have other friends. Please don't forget that for a gay Thai professional, life can be pretty hard. Due to workplace constraints a gay guy may not have close friends at the office. ( Not too different from any other place is it?) The network you saw might just be the surrogate circle of buddies. Relax, don't stress it and enjoy what you have. Most importantly, don't sell yourself short. He just might love you, and figure you know it already. If it aint broke, don't try and fix it.

[bieles]

My motto is "don't ask, if you really don't want to know."

... and another "always keep a finger homeland"

[PeaceBlondie]

We can take Rickys' word for it that this professional office worker is not a professional bar worker, but that Rickys is not the only farang who spends time with this boyfriend.

Ricky, don't lose that number if it's the only one you have. But yours is not the only phone number he has.

[farang prince]

We can take Rickys' word for it that this professional office worker is not a professional bar worker, but that Rickys is not the only farang who spends time with this boyfriend.

Ricky, don't lose that number if it's the only one you have. But yours is not the only phone number he has.

PB, I wonder what Steely Dan would do? Perhaps go "back to the jack"? In Rickys' case, his Jack is out of the bottle. The relationship is what it is. He will either have to accept it or move on.

Edited August 19, 2007 by farang prince

[Steve2UK]

Rickys

Until you actually move in with him, you shouldn't assume he's anything more than a good friend you have sex with. Even if you move in together, he may continue to be evasive. Doesn't mean he has anything to hide, necessarily. But you can't negotiate the rules until you're living together.

I only began living with my bf a year and a half ago after a protracted long-distance relationship. Since moving in, my bf was upset that I wanted to know where he was all the time. But two things happened. First, I explained that I didn't care where he went, but that I needed to know for emergencies. Second, I told him that I would never tell him where I was going if he didn't also tell me where he'd be. That sort of changed the dynamic. Now we tell each other where we'll be all the time. It's not about checking up on each other. It's about keeping your partner informed - for emergencies or whatever.

Anyway, I don't think you have a right to do this until you move in together. And even then, it will take time.

EW

Expatwannabe has got it right - and I can echo all his points from my own experience of a 6-month live-together relationship here in LOS - now finished [and, yes, I do know that's not so long in the scheme of things]. I've encountered many instances of Thai's who just don't feel comfortable having to account for things - e.g. who they're with, what they were doing etc. As described in expatwannabe's second paragraph - that's only likely to change if you say (and are in a position to say) "OK - same goes for me. I don't tell you either". Maybe it's a combination of the classic Thai jealousy/face issues, but anyhow - that approach tends to work.......... but only once you're really together 1-1.

BTW, Rickys, maybe another factor is that your guy may not have been in a 1-1 live-together before and so a] is not used to what that typically calls for and b] feels the need to guard his freedom a bit?

[Lancelot]

Sometimes I think we farangs tell a fib or two as well. I can't speak for others but if my (Mom or GF) cooks something that I didn't particularly like, then asks me how I liked it, I tell her it was gourmet! Whe my GF asks if she looks slimmer, you guessed it, I fib again.

And then there were some of the job interviews I've had. I lied like the proverbial dog (not sure a dog has ever lied to me.)

I understand the OPs concerns, but personally speaking, I'll admit to stretching the truth a bit to save some hurt feelings (or get that job!)

Edited August 21, 2007 by Jai Dee
post edited at OP's request

[Rickys]

I understand about the face issues, but not really about jealous issues. Do Thai’s get jealous? From what I have heard its not like in the west, unless I haven’t had the full scorn of a Thai in a jealous rage yet.

Just finding it a bit tough as there is no way I can communicate with him now until he comes back from where-ever next week!! Mobile off, no emails etc. And then I can’t really go steaming in with “where have you been?” So needless to say my mind is coming up with all sorts of images. Its driving me insane trying to make sense of it all

Am I being just another Farang who “thinks too much”?

[farang prince]

I understand about the face issues, but not really about jealous issues. Do Thai’s get jealous? From what I have heard its not like in the west, unless I haven’t had the full scorn of a Thai in a jealous rage yet.

Just finding it a bit tough as there is no way I can communicate with him now until he comes back from where-ever next week!! Mobile off, no emails etc. And then I can’t really go steaming in with “where have you been?” So needless to say my mind is coming up with all sorts of images. Its driving me insane trying to make sense of it all

Am I being just another Farang who “thinks too much”?

Do Thai's get jealous? Wait until you experience it. Hint: Find something sturdy to hide behind.