Thai Corruption Revisited - My View.

[WaiWai]

As an Aussie, I was interested to see the "Corruption Index" someone quoted. When I first began to visit & live in other countries, corruption (& attendant inequalities) came as a massive shock . I did notice that people from other "Western" countries were less surprised. Our reactions will vary somewhat, depending on the precise nature of the intercultural interaction.

BTW, doesn't David Jones make quality stuff any more ? and which are these creams I could be making my millions from, please ?

[markm81]

As an Aussie, I was interested to see the "Corruption Index" someone quoted. When I first began to visit & live in other countries, corruption (& attendant inequalities) came as a massive shock . I did notice that people from other "Western" countries were less surprised. Our reactions will vary somewhat, depending on the precise nature of the intercultural interaction.

BTW, doesn't David Jones make quality stuff any more ? and which are these creams I could be making my millions from, please ?

You can see a summery here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

re David jones: They make good quality products, but its strange that its such a status symbol all the way in Thailand. Englands Harrods stuff is also perceived that way in Thailand. Ask any Bangkok person what david jones is and chances are they will know.

re the other cream... hint, you can get it in Paddy markets in sydney(and most of the cheap markets in australia). Sorry can't remember the name, but its all over thailand now, lots of people already exploiting the juicy profit margins!!

[JetsetBkk]

I just think that is why foreigners NOTICE the corruption so much. We are directly exposed to it.

I know that thais suffer the most from the corruption in thailand because it occurs daily with my family members who are thais.

So, let's get this straight: Thais (capital 'T', if you don't mind) suffer the most but don't notice it, whereas foreigners don't suffer so much but are directly exposed to it and do notice it.

its amazing how poorly logic can be used.

Couldn't agree more.

[uptou]

Corruption is very noticeable in Thailand because of the level of tourism as well. Impoverished locals with a lot of contact with toursits will try to find ways to rip them off. I know I would in their position. Esp. If it was someone like the macdonalds man. I would spend half my nights planning schemes to rip off some of the more sleazy farang. Sometimes locals may also come across as dishonest or immoral because of their reactions when they are caught cheating, or having made a mistake - however as a foreigner you can't expect the locals to react in the same way someone of your own culture would react.

so how do you take it,on a personal level when youre ripped off,even for say a few baht (its happened to all of us at some point).surely a cheat is a cheat regardless of location.ive seen locals dish out severe beatings on their fellow man for stealing so i'm not sure they feel the same as you.

[sukanyacondo]

I just think that is why foreigners NOTICE the corruption so much. We are directly exposed to it.

I know that thais suffer the most from the corruption in thailand because it occurs daily with my family members who are thais.

So, let's get this straight: Thais (capital 'T', if you don't mind) suffer the most but don't notice it, whereas foreigners don't suffer so much but are directly exposed to it and do notice it.

its amazing how poorly logic can be used.

Couldn't agree more.

Maybe he meant Thai people "accept it more easily"

[frodo]

Corruption is very noticeable in Thailand because of the level of tourism as well. Impoverished locals with a lot of contact with toursits will try to find ways to rip them off. I know I would in their position. Esp. If it was someone like the macdonalds man. I would spend half my nights planning schemes to rip off some of the more sleazy farang. Sometimes locals may also come across as dishonest or immoral because of their reactions when they are caught cheating, or having made a mistake - however as a foreigner you can't expect the locals to react in the same way someone of your own culture would react.

so how do you take it,on a personal level when youre ripped off,even for say a few baht (its happened to all of us at some point).surely a cheat is a cheat regardless of location.ive seen locals dish out severe beatings on their fellow man for stealing so i'm not sure they feel the same as you.

I think most Thai's have a life outside of spending half their nights devising ways to rip people off. Following the logic on this thread, I am under the impression that the police officers who pulled a friend over for a routine traffic stop a few years back and proceeded to break a headlight out, then fine him 2,000baht or face arrest for having a broken headlight, is perfectly acceptable since the officers are impoverished? What the heck, right? It was a few days before Songkran and they needed the money.

Edited August 19, 2007 by frodo

[markm81]

I just think that is why foreigners NOTICE the corruption so much. We are directly exposed to it.

I know that thais suffer the most from the corruption in thailand because it occurs daily with my family members who are thais.

So, let's get this straight: Thais (capital 'T', if you don't mind) suffer the most but don't notice it, whereas foreigners don't suffer so much but are directly exposed to it and do notice it.

its amazing how poorly logic can be used.

Couldn't agree more.

I think Bangkoksingapore was right... some of the people here have trouble with comprehension.

Learn to read

[markm81]

I just think that is why foreigners NOTICE the corruption so much. We are directly exposed to it.

I know that thais suffer the most from the corruption in thailand because it occurs daily with my family members who are thais.

So, let's get this straight: Thais (capital 'T', if you don't mind) suffer the most but don't notice it, whereas foreigners don't suffer so much but are directly exposed to it and do notice it.

its amazing how poorly logic can be used.

Couldn't agree more.

Maybe he meant Thai people "accept it more easily"

Actually I said nothing of the sort... For the tenth time in this thread, posters are having trouble understanding simple English.

I never said thai people notice it any less than foreigners or are less sensitive to the corruption in thailand. The locals have the hardest time, especially the honest ones, as they are often have trouble fitting into the system.

And if you guys read my posts carefully, you will notice that I never condone corruption and dishonesty, I just condemn the losers here who go to thailand thinking they are great and mighty farang, and then patronise and insult the thais by commenting on how inherently corrupt and dishonest thai people are.

If you have a problem with thailand, and you can't refrain from being rude and insulting to the Thai people, take your holidaying elsewhere.

[jasreeve17]

Shockingly poor arguments and examples, again, from Mark.

Wait til some of the more argumentative members on the board get hold of your "logic".

Jasreeve17, if you have something to say, be specific. You are using the refuge of the ignorant by making statements that are vague and irrefutable in nature.

Are you denying that thais(generally) are obsessed with western products? I don't have any studies to back this up, however most thais are fairly conscientious and intelligent are aware of this obsession.

Or are you denying how this fits in with the rest of the argument?

Because the logic is pretty straight forward, sorry you missed it!

Where to begin?

Endure's right we should stick to the discussion points and not bicker, so I'll address a couple of your comments:-

Post 1

"Corruption is more prevalent in Thailand and generally Thais are more influenced by money than most foreigners. However Corruption in Thailand is not exceptional."

Which one is it? Are they more influenced or less so? Are they exceptional or not?

"there is a strong link between wealth, development and corruption."

Yes. The more development and wealth, the less the corruption. The less the development, with less wealth to go round, the more that people will fight (corruptly) to get it. I think that you're suggesting the opposite, which I believe is wrong.

"For you smug and ignorant farang who complain about getting ripped off in thailand(esp. you McDonalds man), WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THAILAND? More bang for your buck? Can't find a girl friend back home? Playing important because you are suddenly wealthier than 95% of the population?"

Shows a high level of generlization and prejudice.

"Corruption is very noticeable in Thailand because of the level of tourism as well."

Why? I would have thought that the tourist industry would be showing the best examples of Thai life and culture, especially when the tourist board's goal is to achieve a "higher level of quality tourists.

"Impoverished locals with a lot of contact with toursits will try to find ways to rip them off. I know I would in their position."

I suggest that this is a character flaw on your part. To tar the "impoverished locals" with that brush is just plain rude. It also shows a lack of understanding. Impoverished Thais are generally exceptionally nice people who wouldn't rip anybody off. The higher classes, the corrupt ones, they are a different matter...

"I would spend half my nights planning schemes to rip off some of the more sleazy farang."

I would hope that you could spend your time in a more socially constructive manner.

"The Thais have nothing to be ashamed of. A nation should be ashamed if its ideals break down in relative prosperity - eg. Germany WW2. Life for Thai people is a real struggle."

Your argument moves 180 degrees from second to second. Do you know anything about the period between the first and second World wars in Germany? Life was very much more difficult than life is for any Thai today. Also, please be aware that struggling Thais are not the problem with regard to corruption, lies and cheating. Quite the opposite.

Post 3

"Farang should realise that if they can't find a girlfriend back home, then looking for one in thailand may lead to trouble."

"It is usually the men who go seeking these girls that later complain on these boards about dishonest thais"

Awful generalization, again.

Post 22

"Thais now think westerners are better than them"

This is simply untrue and shows zero understanding of Asian / Thai mindsets. Have you listened to the Thai national anthem recently? Do you understand the concept of Nationalism?

"and that western things are better than Thai made"

That's because it is true. A product made in Australia, Germany, USA is almost always better (and more expensive) than the equivilent Thai product. I don't know what this consumer driven point has to do with this thread though.

"Furthermore, many thais buy cheap australian brands, for up to 5x the retail price in australia."

This is simple untrue. Some Thais may buy some imported products which are more expensive than locally produced products. It's called a free market economy / marketing. It has nothing to do with corruption in Thailand.

Post 24

"I just think that is why foreigners NOTICE the corruption so much. We are directly exposed to it."

It doesn't sound like you are. Look at several of your earlier remarks.

Post 25

"Jasreeve17, if you have something to say, be specific. You are using the refuge of the ignorant by making statements that are vague and irrefutable in nature."

I'm answering you now. Your statements are specific and easily refutable. Or at least I believe so and am writing this reply to support this belief.

"Are you denying that thais(generally) are obsessed with western products? I don't have any studies to back this up, however most thais are fairly conscientious and intelligent are aware of this obsession."

I think that it has nothing to do with your argument on the original post. Also, you keep saying "most Thais" when you mean the Siam sq Thais. This is indicative of about 5% of Thai people only. Meaningless.

Post 28

"The smelly and sleazy farang been mentioned because often Thais have to put up with a class of farang that are an embarrassment to the rest of us at best. Especially in places like Pattaya. These are the Farang that don't know, or care, about Thai culture, and just go about their days being generally rude and obnoxious to the Thais."

Awful generalization again. You are also showing a superialistic attitude whilst scolding others for exhibiting this same quality.

"Compare Thais to people from other less developed nations and you see that there are usually similar levels of corruption, and so the corruption is 'unexceptional'. "

In your first thread you quoted the HDI index, and came to a different conclusion. You show consistent inconsistencies. You make one claim in one statement then the opposite claim in the next statement. It's strange to read.

Post 30

"You are probably right about them being old. Thats probably why they complain about everything."

Awful generalization again. Based on zero knowledge. Many people would consider it to be a very rude and ignorant thing to say. You may want to reconsider this one.

"I feel embarrassed by the way many people from Australia(and other western countries) treat the thais, spurred on by ignorant notions that the Thais are unusually corrupt."

Nobody has suggested that except you. People on this board think that the average person in the street is loevely and kind. The elites are the corrupt pond slime.

Post 32

"re David jones: They make good quality products, but its strange that its such a status symbol all the way in Thailand. Englands Harrods stuff is also perceived that way in Thailand. Ask any Bangkok person what david jones is and chances are they will know."

David Jones and Harrods are not big status symbols in Thailand. They are status symbols to a tiny percentage of young Thais in Bangkok. It's called fashion.

Post 38

"think Bangkoksingapore was right... some of the people here have trouble with comprehension.

Learn to read"

That's not the way to make friends and influence people, is it?

"The locals have the hardest time, especially the honest ones, as they are often have trouble fitting into the system."

You are implying that the honest local Thais are in a minority. That's shockingly disrespectful and plain nonsense. 99.9% of Thais are very comfortable fitting into the Thai system. Who are you to say otherwise?

Just my thoughts...

[duratanium]

When the g/f had to go to the police station over a lost handbag containing ID card etc she was very surprised when the officer dealing with the case did NOT ask for the usual 20 Baht for filling out the form.

She concluded it was because she was with a Farang at the time.

So, if a Thai has to pay to report something similar when a sleazy, smelly farang is not there then that smacks of corruption on Thai v Thai and nothing to do with Farang being here.

[jasreeve17]

That's something to consider too. (bounce)

[JimmyCA]

Playing important because you are suddenly wealthier than 95% of the population?

Just because you have been there many years does not make you astute observer of thai culture. Marrying a thai girl who steals your posessions does not make Thai girls into prostitutes - just makes you a bad judge of character who was taken in by the prospect of someone who, all other things being equal, would be out of your league.

Alas .... if things were equal there would be no cheap places to eat, few tourists, even fewer mongers, no stickmanbangkok, and no TV etc etc etc.....

How would the world survive?

[meemiathai]

there is a general idea that farang are something special and better

etc ..................

It has got nothing to do with skin colour.

[meemiathai]

if my choice was between making a 40 baht/hour or scheming rich sleezy foul smelling farang, well, it wouldnt be much of a choice at all. you might claim differently, but of course it is just your 'guess' at what you would do. you dont know for sure.

i have been in some pretty rough spots in my life, and i always managed to get myself out of them without hurting or scamming others. so yeah, i do know for sure that i would not spend all night trying to think of ways to scam "sleazy" people.

that said, OP i agree with your point that cultural values are different here and rather than try to impose ours on the thais, we should make an effort to understand how they think and roll with it. not easy though.

That is because you have the opportunities to. They don't. A lot of them don't see future. Poverty is what they see ahead and and that makes being dishonest very tempting if it helps to generate wealth.

In the west you have the choice to choose to work hard and have a future.

[meemiathai]

"Playing important because you are suddenly wealthier than 95% of the population?"

I dont agree with everything Mark says, but this does ring true. Farang sure do walk with their chins high in Thailand. I get the feeling its the first time many of them have ever been respected in their lifes, or atleast Thais pretend to be respect. Honestly, one of the weirdest thing about Thailand is how much they look up to farang, and i dont think its just because they have the money. there is a general idea that farang are something special and better.

And BangkokSingapore, its made worse because many Thais now think westerners are better than them, and that western things are better than Thai made(going back to a post in the macdonalds thread, THAT is main reason why some thais eat macdonalds).

AN example - thais think that anything made by aussie company david jones are very luxurious, and it is a status symbol for them

to buy David Jones products.

Furthermore, many thais buy cheap australian brands, for up to 5x the retail price in australia. Thats a lot of baht for a cream that doesn't do much, just because it is made in australia.

I can't believe this! You think people go eat mcdonalds because they think farang is better?

[tropo]

Give them time to adjust to it - It took us a long time, and we still don't have it right.

Talk about an understatement.

Edited August 19, 2007 by tropo

[rainman]

And BangkokSingapore, its made worse because many Thais now think westerners are better than them, and that western things are better than Thai made(going back to a post in the macdonalds thread, THAT is main reason why some thais eat macdonalds).

Well, maybe Western food are better. Take McDonald's as an example. It's crap food, but it's clean. Because they're the largest fast food company, they're the most controlled. But if you eat Thai fast food, as in the food shops on the street, nobody controls them. Have you ever spent some time watching how they wash the dishes? Or the meat they put in the soups? Not to mention it's hanging in the sun for probably 6 hours before you eat it and develops bacteria. McDonald's burgers at least are in the fridge. So yes, Western fast food, even if crap food, is still better than Thai fast food.

[Solosiam]

And BangkokSingapore, its made worse because many Thais now think westerners are better than them, and that western things are better than Thai made(going back to a post in the macdonalds thread, THAT is main reason why some thais eat macdonalds).

Well, maybe Western food are better. Take McDonald's as an example. It's crap food, but it's clean. Because they're the largest fast food company, they're the most controlled. But if you eat Thai fast food, as in the food shops on the street, nobody controls them. Have you ever spent some time watching how they wash the dishes? Or the meat they put in the soups? Not to mention it's hanging in the sun for probably 6 hours before you eat it and develops bacteria. McDonald's burgers at least are in the fridge. So yes, Western fast food, even if crap food, is still better than Thai fast food.

Don't know about that, the 3 times I've been in from food in Thailand in over 5 years have all been at Western food places. At least with the Thai carts you watch them amke the food, so know that nothing untoward is happening.

[zipster31]

Some real humanitarians posting the usual mean-spirited <deleted> on here then...? Get a life or at least a new set of cliches to spout, <deleted>.

I think of this forum when I want to delay ejacualation, I swear.

ha ha, that's funny. I think of doing the hoovering and empting the bin.

[Lancelot]

And BangkokSingapore, its made worse because many Thais now think westerners are better than them, and that western things are better than Thai made(going back to a post in the macdonalds thread, THAT is main reason why some thais eat macdonalds).

Well, maybe Western food are better. Take McDonald's as an example. It's crap food, but it's clean. Because they're the largest fast food company, they're the most controlled. But if you eat Thai fast food, as in the food shops on the street, nobody controls them. Have you ever spent some time watching how they wash the dishes? Or the meat they put in the soups? Not to mention it's hanging in the sun for probably 6 hours before you eat it and develops bacteria. McDonald's burgers at least are in the fridge. So yes, Western fast food, even if crap food, is still better than Thai fast food.

Rain Man, why do you hate the Thai people, why are you so racist, why are you implying that Thailand is not perfect?!?

Just a bit of banter. Thailand is a good country and the Thais are a good people. Some folks on this forum can not tolerate dissent and love to lash out and insult anyone that disagrees with them and their personal points of view.

Like they say here, up to you (them)

[rainman]

Rain Man, why do you hate the Thai people, why are you so racist, why are you implying that Thailand is not perfect?!?

1. I don't hate people, I live in Thailand for almost 4 years.

2. I'm not racist, my wife is Thai.

3. Thailand is not perfect. We all know it, otherwise the OP wouldn't complain about corruption.

I'm just being realistic. Sorry if I busted your dream world bubble.

Edited August 19, 2007 by rainman

[rainman]

Just a bit of banter. Thailand is a good country and the Thais are a good people. Some folks on this forum can not tolerate dissent and love to lash out and insult anyone that disagrees with them and their personal points of view.

I don't think I ever said Thailand isn't a good country or the people are not good, but it isn't perfect and I will voice my opinion if you like it or not. My wife, who is Thai, will not eat from street shops either because she calls the food dirty. People that can't afford more than 20 Baht for a meal eat from street shops (and perhaps some adventurous Farangs). I can understand that, but if you have an option to eat clean food or dirty food, I will choose the clean food. "Up to you" what you want to eat.

[Lancelot]

I'm just being realistic. Sorry if I busted your dream world bubble.

No problem Rainman, maybe english is not your first language...

(I thought you might get it with the smiley)

PS-JOKE!

Edited August 19, 2007 by Lancelot

[Solosiam]

I'm just being realistic. Sorry if I busted your dream world bubble.

No problem Rainman, maybe english is not your first language...

(I thought you might get it with the smiley)

PS-JOKE!

It's never a good joke if it needs explaining.

[Lancelot]

I'm just being realistic. Sorry if I busted your dream world bubble.

No problem Rainman, maybe english is not your first language...

(I thought you might get it with the smiley)

PS-JOKE!

It's never a good joke if it needs explaining.

Maybe, then again maybe not

[longway]

I'm just being realistic. Sorry if I busted your dream world bubble.

No problem Rainman, maybe english is not your first language...

(I thought you might get it with the smiley)

PS-JOKE!

It's never a good joke if it needs explaining.

Maybe, then again maybe not

maybe its time to change to de-caff.

[Lancelot]

maybe its time to change to de-caff.

No argument there LW

[zipster31]

Hi,

This is a spin off from the macdonalds thread which side tracked.

Corruption is more prevalent in Thailand and generally Thais are more influenced by money than most foreigners.

However Corruption in Thailand is not exceptional. Thailand ranks 63/163 on the corruption index. However its HDI index which factors living standards is 74. (BEST is 1, worst it 163). So if poverty levels determine corruption, Thailand would be expected to be MORE corrupt - and there is a strong link between wealth, development and corruption.

For you smug and ignorant farang who complain about getting ripped off in thailand(esp. you McDonalds man), WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THAILAND? More bang for your buck? Can't find a girl friend back home? Playing important because you are suddenly wealthier than 95% of the population?

Just because you have been there many years does not make you astute observer of thai culture. Marrying a thai girl who steals your posessions does not make Thai girls into prostitutes - just makes you a bad judge of character who was taken in by the prospect of someone who, all other things being equal, would be out of your league.

Corruption is very noticeable in Thailand because of the level of tourism as well. Impoverished locals with a lot of contact with toursits will try to find ways to rip them off. I know I would in their position. Esp. If it was someone like the macdonalds man. I would spend half my nights planning schemes to rip off some of the more sleazy farang. Sometimes locals may also come across as dishonest or immoral because of their reactions when they are caught cheating, or having made a mistake - however as a foreigner you can't expect the locals to react in the same way someone of your own culture would react.

Corruption embedded in Thai officials is a huge problem in Thailand, however it doesn't stem from any trait that is embedded in the Thai genome! It is there in most poor countries, and it was prevalent throughout most of western history! Look at Europe a couple of hundred years ago!

The Thais have nothing to be ashamed of. A nation should be ashamed if its ideals break down in relative prosperity - eg. Germany WW2. Life for Thai people is a real struggle.

Finally, the western way of life/business is new to Thais. Give them time to adjust to it - It took us a long time, and we still don't have it right.

Corrupion is corruption, whoever it involves. It is wrong and ugly, affecting everybody here. Corruption stems from the "top" and filters all the way to the bottom. As I see it, the people in power at the top of the food chain are the ones who can change things. They need to lead by example and the people will follow. Simple really. Until things change at the top of the tree, corruption will carry on to be the blight of the LOS.

[rainman]

Lancelot, no worries I'm a bit cranky today because my puppy dog keeps biting my feet all evening.

[LinkPopularity]

Mark,

read some books about Buddha !

every truth has a counter truth ... Thailand is great ... most Thais are corrupt

both statements are true ... live with it ...

or leave Thailand !

like it or not, but those cranky, whiny, complaining, old, fat farangs are part of it ! hehe

anyway, I've no problem with the corruption, they try, but they can never out-smart me, actually I kind of like, it's a game, whenever they try to rip me off, but fail, I'm just like them, I smile and ... well, they smile ... LOS

but guys like you, trying so hard to deny reality, are the only real losers !