Lucid Dreaming

[Jimjim]

Yooyung, what do you think has brought about your lucid dreaming and resulting interesting dreams? How do you have that much control? That fascinates me. Usually when I get lucid the dream comes to an end and I can't have any fun. I've had lucid dreams since I was a child, but they are rare. I can't remember the last one I had. Perhaps last year. I do think, however, that lucid dreaming and meditation are too much different things.

[sabaijai]

Does this relate to Buddhism at all? If not it might better be addressed in General Topics.

[Grover]

I have a question.

Considering that the goal of meditation is to reach a state of inifinite nothingness where does the art of dreaming with lucidity fit in?

As cool as it may be, I dont think it does - at least not in Theravada Buddhism.

BTW, the goal of Buddhist meditation is Nirvarna, which may or may not be the ambiguous sounding "infinite nothingness" you speak of.

Edited August 25, 2007 by Grover

[brahmburgers]

It appears as though this thread involves some who have experienced it and others who haven't. Then there are those who claim a spiritual teacher is necessary for LD and others (usually the ones with 1st hand experience) who don't seem to be as concerned about guides.

I have experienced lucid dreams, and here's by thumbnail take on it; it's heightening, enjoyable, and refreshing. Considering that all animals have a sleep-state, and we humans are horizontal about 1/3 of our lives, I don't see a problem with LD when experienced by an experienced person - (more on that later). It's like a spiritual highlight to the many hours of sleeping.

LD also takes some subtle skill to render it in to a heightening experience. Those with positive experience with mind-altering drugs and/or deep meditation are more likely to have such skills. There is a point where the dreamer goes from a regular dream in to a lucid dream and (for me) the transition is quick - and often requires a bit of waking consciousness - but not enough to fully awaken (then it's no longer a dream, is it?). It's a balancing act.

My best LD's involve flying or soaring. Sometimes I'll be in a regular dream in a precarious situation such as very high on a building or up in a large tree. The natural inclination far anyone, whether awake or in a dream, is to be cautious (don't fall and get injured) whereas the slight waking consciousness I add to the sleep dream will (sometimes) allow me to do the counter-intuitive act - such as let go of the building, cliff or tree branch - and allow me to soar on and on. Very heightening! I also use breath, as deep inhaling enables me to gain altitude, sometimes soaring over a vast landscapes or even up into the cosmos. Again, a slight waking consciousness comes in to play - to enable the deep breaths. I awake refreshed and re-charged.

Similar ecstatic dream-like states can be experienced during waking meditations and/or mind-altering drug states - but again, it helps if a person is experienced with such things - so that's a big reason why some posters have mentioned the need for an experienced teacher and/or guide - so the mind doesn't stray to places we don't want to dwell in; fear, anxiety, phobias, anger, vengefulness ....the list is endless.

[garro]

As others have mentioned this LD is all very entertaining but I too wonder if there is any real benefits other than reinforcing the 'I' concept. The mind can produce many wonderful things but for Buddhists I think this is dangerous ground if we begin seeing them as being part of me or mine. The delusion that I am in control of my thoughts is just that, as they are not my anything.

I know that since the beginning of the last century, and developments such as psychoanalysis, there has been great interest in the possible answers that lie in dreams and our sub-conscious. I think that there is only trouble in my sub-conscious when I choose to view it as significant.

Ajahn Chah told a wonderful story. if I can remember it correctly. He talked about a still mind being like a still pool in the forest. Lots of interesting animals will come to drink at the pool but they should be viewed only as passing visitors.

I have had lucid dreams in the past but in future when they occur I intend to just meditate. Hopefully this will stop my mind from getting into too much trouble.

[Yooyung]

Good day to you all,

Again, as to the benefits of being able to become lucid at will.....Well I cant really understand how anyone would think that it would be anything but?

I understand the concept of thoughts being transitory , not wanting to hang onto them, letting them pass to create a less cluttered clearer space in the mind. Thats all well and good.

Lets consider then the fact that normally most people have NO control whatsoever within the dreamstate. Given this fact it could be said that during the dreamstate the mind is left to wander aimlessly wether we like it or not. It is during state that all the years of hard work trying to be "in the moment' amount to nothing, as you are not even aware of the fact that the giant T - rex nipping at your heels is in fact a construct of your own mind. Its all very well talking about letting thoughts 'pass' while your sitting on a bus on your way to work, fully concious and aware that you are simply going through the mundane motions of everyday exhistence.

Now, I know that some will say that 'control' is not the objective. I tend to disagree. While you meditate and try to 'let go' of the jumbled thoughts that drift in and out of your mind ,arent you infact conciously taking control of your own mind? While 'letting go' of any particular thought YOU are choosing to do so, which means to some extent you are controling what is allowed to stay and what is cast out ( ok or let out) of your mind.

I feel that becoming lucid (almost) whenever I feel like it has been a real awakening for me. Its not a skill that I have perfected by any means. I do practice mindfulness and meditate in a way on a daily basis. I think they are both very positive things. Infact, it was the concept of mindfulness that got me thinking about lucid dreaming. The fact that a state of such clarity can be reached during waking hours and yet not during the dreamstate lead me to investigate the whole thing further.

Anyway thanks for all your replies so far. I would much rather talk about stuff like this than prattle on about all the negative sides to living in Thailand. It seems to me that a lot of these forums are just an outlet for people to air their dirty laundry.

Cheers.

[autonomous_unit]

Yooyung, I cannot say I am very Buddhist in my inclinations, but it strikes me that if you want to study mindfulness and use your dreaming as a tool, you should be focusing more on how and why you think the way you do in dreams. For example, you described earlier a dream where you became angry at your dream situation, but do not know why. This seems like a more useful question to consider than dozens of other experiments about what happens when you walk through walls etc.

In short, lucid dreaming is just another venue for fantasy, in my opinion. What value is there in fantasy or escapism? To be self-aware, you have to look into the layers of thoughts and reactions which make you who you are, rather than diving into ever more elaborate (dreamed or real) experiences. The only real benefit of the dream state, I think, is that you have the luxury to focus on this inward study without any negative consequences, whereas in waking life you risk becoming inattentive to those demands around you (assuming you are not sequestered for meditation).

[thaicurious]

Usually when I get lucid the dream comes to an end and I can't have any fun.... I do think, however, that lucid dreaming and meditation are too much different things.

try balancing your awareness of the dream with the dreaming itself. if you do not have control over your consciousness then bringing forth too much consciousness will destroy your dream and awaken your body. if you put too much stock in the dream then you will destroy your consciousness and become recaptured within the dream (it will become non-lucid). so before you can work to "have any fun" you first need to learn how to stabilize your experience.

lucid dreaming and meditation are only different if you want them to be different. or they can be the same. just like you can meditate while you walk, you can meditate while you dream.

Does this relate to Buddhism at all? If not it might better be addressed in General Topics.

most certainly lucid dreaming can be related to buddhism. particularly it is addressed in dzogchen and there it is refered to as dream yoga.

As others have mentioned this LD is all very entertaining but I too wonder if there is any real benefits other than reinforcing the 'I' concept. The mind can produce many wonderful things but for Buddhists I think this is dangerous ground if we begin seeing them as being part of me or mine. The delusion that I am in control of my thoughts is just that, as they are not my anything.

you can reinforce your sense of self through gaining control of your dreaming but also you can use your contol of your dreaming to deconstruct your sense not just of self but even of your vision of reality itself. for instance, once you have gained control of your dreaming, say you can create a fire where there was no fire, and once you gain control over yourself, say, you can place your dream character directly into the fire, then you can come to realize the illusion of the fire which did not burn or of yourself which did not catch fire.

I know listening to other peoples dreams might be a tad boring, but the one I had this morning ( considering I was fully lucid and aware that it was not reality) is perhaps worth mentioning.

might i suggest that before you concentrate on the dream elements you study the behavior of own dream character. as i mentioned before, just because you are lucid dreaming does not declare you aware. the same as just because someone is going about their day during waking life, doesn't declare that person aware.

after you become better aquainted with your dream character then you might start manipulating dream elements. for instance, if you see a door in a wall, create two doors, three doors. if you see a book, pick it up and see what happens when you read it. try to work consciously within the dream instead of just going about your day.

Edited August 26, 2007 by thaicurious

[brahmburgers]

Usually when I get lucid the dream comes to an end and I can't have any fun.... I do think, however, that lucid dreaming and meditation are too much different things.

try balancing your awareness of the dream with the dreaming itself. if you do not have control over your consciousness then bringing forth too much consciousness will destroy your dream and awaken your body. if you put too much stock in the dream then you will destroy your consciousness and become recaptured within the dream (it will become non-lucid). so before you can work to "have any fun" you first need to learn how to stabilize your experience.

lucid dreaming and meditation are only different if you want them to be different. or they can be the same. just like you can meditate while you walk, you can meditate while you dream.

Does this relate to Buddhism at all? If not it might better be addressed in General Topics.

most certainly lucid dreaming can be related to buddhism. particularly it is addressed in dzogchen and there it is refered to as dream yoga.

As others have mentioned this LD is all very entertaining but I too wonder if there is any real benefits other than reinforcing the 'I' concept. The mind can produce many wonderful things but for Buddhists I think this is dangerous ground if we begin seeing them as being part of me or mine. The delusion that I am in control of my thoughts is just that, as they are not my anything.

you can reinforce your sense of self through gaining control of your dreaming but also you can use your contol of your dreaming to deconstruct your sense not just of self but even of your vision of reality itself. for instance, once you have gained control of your dreaming, say you can create a fire where there was no fire, and once you gain control over yourself, say, you can place your dream character directly into the fire, then you can come to realize the illusion of the fire which did not burn or of yourself which did not catch fire.

I know listening to other peoples dreams might be a tad boring, but the one I had this morning ( considering I was fully lucid and aware that it was not reality) is perhaps worth mentioning.

might i suggest that before you concentrate on the dream elements you study the behavior of own dream character. as i mentioned before, just because you are lucid dreaming does not declare you aware. the same as just because someone is going about their day during waking life, doesn't declare that person aware.

after you become better aquainted with your dream character then you might start manipulating dream elements. for instance, if you see a door in a wall, create two doors, three doors. if you see a book, pick it up and see what happens when you read it. try to work consciously within the dream instead of just going about your day.

I like how 'Thaicurious' explains things in a non-judgemental way. it's that type of methodical, scientific, knowledgable, and compassionate approach to the topic that is more likely to be helpful and further the discussion.

[sabaijai]

Moved to general topics, not relevant to Buddhism.

[chevykanteve]

Hello again,

Sorry about that last reply. I went out played snooker and got a teeny bit wipsy. Having said that though I do still agree with most of what I said in that state ( thank god I dont drink like that too often)

If I seemed like a bit of a dick then its probably because I was.

Ok, again this morning I was able to induce fully lucid dreams on 3 seperate occasions. I am not going to go into details as they are personal. All I can say is during the experiences I am as aware of my immediate surrounds as I am in normal waking states. Now, I understand the concept of 'mindfulness' being incorparated into the waking state but what about also having that level of awareness in the dream state?

I have read a reasonable amount of literature about buddha/buddhism. Didnt he sit under a tree some considerable amount of time and battle the 'demons' in his head? I think that possibly what he is talking about IS the state of being lucid while dreaming. Its a part of us all.I think that as part of his ordeal he,as a natural progression of being mindful was also able to have complete awareness of other states ( unless you believe the buddha didnt sleep) one of those states that CAN be controlled is the dreamstate.

I dont want to harp on about it too much though. I respect buddhism and actually would call myself a humanist with slight buddhist leanings. It just seems to me that concious awareness of the dreamstate is all part of being 'mindful' Its all very well to be mindful of your waking life, watching the postman etc why cant it also used as a tool while dreaming?

Oh, i'm harping on about it again.....

Anyway. Has anyone else out there been able to reach this state with consistancy? If you have then I would like to hear about it, as everyone else I talk with about it to looks at me a bit strangley... some a bit like maybe they think I have lost it. I actually think I've found it!

I find this discussion absolutely fascinating. I've previously experienced astral-projection (someone else actually saw me) as well as telepathic experiences --two of which were very compelling. But "lucid dreaming" is somehing I've yet to experience. PM me if you have the time.

[chinthee]

I'm not sure if this is relevant or not. I used to meditate daily and studied the art intensively about 17 years ago for about 8 years. I also attended at some Wats in Thailand, etc., and read everything I could, mostly from the Theravada school. I wasn't seeking Nirvana, I was just seeking a way to handle an extraordinarily stressful and sometimes life-threatening lifestyle.

Later, about a decade ago, I moved to Thailand full time, but never kept up my meditation studies anymore. However, for about the past 5 years, I've been able to "induce" dreaming in the most strange circumstances. For example, sometimes I will like to take a nap in the afternoon. I will lie down. I will consciously start a dream sequence, which morphs into a full dream state and sleep state. Later, i will remember most of the details of both the dream and the process of passing from an awake state to the sleep state and back again.

I'm not sure if this is something extraordinary or not. I have said to myself I would like to get back to meditation practice, but somehow it doesn't occur. Meanwhile, I'm able to induce almost "dreams on command."

Is this similar?

[sukanyacondo]

I Think Ill stay blissfully unaware thanks!!

[sukanyacondo]

I'm not sure if this is relevant or not. I used to meditate daily and studied the art intensively about 17 years ago for about 8 years. I also attended at some Wats in Thailand, etc., and read everything I could, mostly from the Theravada school. I wasn't seeking Nirvana, I was just seeking a way to handle an extraordinarily stressful and sometimes life-threatening lifestyle.

Later, about a decade ago, I moved to Thailand full time, but never kept up my meditation studies anymore. However, for about the past 5 years, I've been able to "induce" dreaming in the most strange circumstances. For example, sometimes I will like to take a nap in the afternoon. I will lie down. I will consciously start a dream sequence, which morphs into a full dream state and sleep state. Later, i will remember most of the details of both the dream and the process of passing from an awake state to the sleep state and back again.

I'm not sure if this is something extraordinary or not. I have said to myself I would like to get back to meditation practice, but somehow it doesn't occur. Meanwhile, I'm able to induce almost "dreams on command."

Is this similar?

Its old age!! I can fall asleep at the drop of a hat now and I can often hear myself starting to snore a bit, I know Im doing this but its so nice I dont stop. I can be asleep in a minute and often have a quick dream. Im 43 now eeeeeeeeeek

This has been happening to me for about 3-4 years now.

[chinthee]

I'm not sure if this is relevant or not. I used to meditate daily and studied the art intensively about 17 years ago for about 8 years. I also attended at some Wats in Thailand, etc., and read everything I could, mostly from the Theravada school. I wasn't seeking Nirvana, I was just seeking a way to handle an extraordinarily stressful and sometimes life-threatening lifestyle.

Later, about a decade ago, I moved to Thailand full time, but never kept up my meditation studies anymore. However, for about the past 5 years, I've been able to "induce" dreaming in the most strange circumstances. For example, sometimes I will like to take a nap in the afternoon. I will lie down. I will consciously start a dream sequence, which morphs into a full dream state and sleep state. Later, i will remember most of the details of both the dream and the process of passing from an awake state to the sleep state and back again.

I'm not sure if this is something extraordinary or not. I have said to myself I would like to get back to meditation practice, but somehow it doesn't occur. Meanwhile, I'm able to induce almost "dreams on command."

Is this similar?

Its old age!! I can fall asleep at the drop of a hat now and I can often hear myself starting to snore a bit, I know Im doing this but its so nice I dont stop. I can be asleep in a minute and often have a quick dream. Im 43 now eeeeeeeeeek

This has been happening to me for about 3-4 years now.

bloody hel_l. that's what it is, but like you I'm not that old.

Edited August 26, 2007 by chinthee

[sukanyacondo]

This started happening to me about 38 yrs oldish it used to annoy me a lot as I never ever slept except at night. Now i can wake up at 7am and still sleep at 11am . Now i just accept it but it can annoy me when I am at work, doc said I was ok.

I know its not that old an age and I asked my friends if they had similar but they said not.

Life??? a funny old thing.

Now I often find the need to sleep at these times almost unstoppable I really have to fight to stay awake?? do you get this too???Or am I a natural Buddhist???????

As I wa sayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyi

nnnnnnnnnnngzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz eeeeeeeeeeeeeeek its happened again

[ColPyat]

My best LD's involve flying or soaring.

The flying ones are not bad. But my absolute best ones involve a young Sophia Loren...

[Jim's_a_Thai_Fox]

Hi there,

fascinating subject. I would like to know more from the OP about what techniques he used to get to the point where he can induce several lucid dream states in 'one sitting'.

I have read the book 'Soul Traveller' written by the ex NASA scientist - amazing (if all of it was ture, of course).

One of my main motivations behind meditation is to experience Out Of Body experiences. Most of the time, I simply fall into a deep sleep, which is fine, but it is not lucid and I remember nothing from the dream. I have also listened to the Monroe Institute's "Gateway" series (guided meditation)... Google "robert Monroe" for some fascinating reading material, and "Russell Targ" whilst you're at it. I digress... sorry.

Cheers

James

[thaicurious]

I like how 'Thaicurious' explains things in a non-judgemental way. it's that type of methodical, scientific, knowledgable, and compassionate approach to the topic that is more likely to be helpful and further the discussion.

thank you brahmburgers. very kind of you to mention. i might also note here that anonymous unit seems on similar path.

[thaicurious]

For example, sometimes I will like to take a nap in the afternoon. I will lie down. I will consciously start a dream sequence, which morphs into a full dream state and sleep state. Later, i will remember most of the details of both the dream and the process of passing from an awake state to the sleep state and back again.

you can put the body to sleep and then create a dream, but also you can create a dream from a daydream while the body is awake and then to step consciously into the daydream whereupon it becomes a lucid-type dream. i suppose this would be considered some sort of trance state but as far as i can tell, at the point where the body sleeps and the mind is awake it is, after all, a lucid dream.

becoming aware of the betweens, of the bardos, isn't that what this is so very much about. and so your becoming aware of the passing from awake to sleep is in fact on this path. as you expand your consciousness into that between state, you can grow & utilize that awareness to lead yourself to awaken in your dreams.

[Jimjim]

I find this discussion absolutely fascinating. I've previously experienced astral-projection (someone else actually saw me) as well as telepathic experiences --two of which were very compelling. But "lucid dreaming" is somehing I've yet to experience. PM me if you have the time.

Really? So some people actually saw your spirit leave your body and go to another plane? Awesome! Why not let them post here and tell us how that is possible? I can't wait.

[quiksilva]

I often have lucid dreams but tend to become too aware of them and I wake up, the problem is that I have trouble 'balancing' this awareness so in fact it can be very annoying.

I can recall as a child having the very distinct impression that I was floating just before drifting off to deep sleep. I have had it a few times since but very rarely, I don't think this is what can be described as LD though as it seemed to happen before I drifted off, but it was very odd.

Oh and sometimes I physically 'trip over' in my dreams, also a very odd sensation, has anyone else had this happen to them or know why it happens?

Edited August 28, 2007 by quiksilva

[rychrde]

As has been said before, the only place in buddhism you will find talk of such things is within the dream and sleep yogas of dzogchen. The subtle difference between the two is that the dream yogas are practices within dreams, whereas the sleep yoga is the practice of remaining aware as you slide from being awake to being asleep.

In my personal experience the latter is far more difficult, but maybe that's just me. So to the skeptics, yes one can meditate within dreams, and yes there are results from such meditations. The dream yoga also stresses to bring the benefits of dream practice into waking life, and vice versa.

Abilities and intentions are two different things. There are some here with natural gifts that others find hard work to cultivate. Those gifts can remain amusements or can be used for a deeper understanding of oneself, and others. Re OP I think there is enough info here to take the latter route, if you wish :-)

re Monroe Inst, it may be a path for those who prefer less religious baggage. It was born from the remote viewing experiments and its focus is on brain entrainment - the brain works at different frequencies for different states. there are even free audio/visual books and software to help you experiment. I think these are from the Farsight Inst.

This area has a lot of crap and fluff out there giving the good stuff a bad reputation. keep your mind open but don't let it leak out.

rych