Another 1 Mio $ Question

[keepsamuiclean]

Combining the threads about liability of construction companies, land sales on Samui and the new shopping mall I have the gutts to ask, what about forming a group which is addressing these concerns to the district chief?

This might sound naive but I am very much grown up and in the recent past I complained twice to him about evening construction noise of my neighbor (as he was not reacting) and then I got response and relief immediately. That I had to remember my neighbor later several times about what he assured me after the complaints is a different issue... but then it worked too.

We have several "clubs" on the island, Rotary for charity, Expat meetings for (?), for fine dining, Sisters on Samui (SOS), why not get together for environmental and development issues?

[sibeymai]

do you really think Thais will appreciate nosey farangs getting involved in things which are none of their business, regardless of the need to do so or the best intentions ?

[keepsamuiclean]

do you really think Thais will appreciate nosey farangs getting involved in things which are none of their business, regardless of the need to do so or the best intentions ?

As I wrote I have my good experiences. I have even a Thai landlord who accepted that I could not pay the complete rent as agreed on - due to the construction site next to my rented place.

[Boater]

do you really think Thais will appreciate nosey farangs getting involved in things which are none of their business, regardless of the need to do so or the best intentions ?

agreed, you would be trending in very deep water, what you seem to want to do is slighlty different to complaing about your nxt door neighbour!!!!!!

What is happening is happening, mostly for the good, but where there is good, there has to be a bit of bad !

Dont be silly and think that you can stand up to most of this, as if you get in the way of a well connected thai about to make a million dollars, i can assure you it will end up in tears on your side

Think first

[lazeeboy]

do you really think Thais will appreciate nosey farangs getting involved in things which are none of their business, regardless of the need to do so or the best intentions ?

agreed, you would be trending in very deep water, what you seem to want to do is slighlty different to complaing about your nxt door neighbour!!!!!!

What is happening is happening, mostly for the good, but where there is good, there has to be a bit of bad !

Dont be silly and think that you can stand up to most of this, as if you get in the way of a well connected thai about to make a million dollars, i can assure you it will end up in tears on your side

Think first

people have been killed over meddling in other peoples business ,i'd stay well clear of this issue ,i dont think you will get any backing on this from any ex pats ,not because we are cowards or anything like that ,most of us have wives and children to worry about

[keepsamuiclean]

Why are you still here??

"not because we are cowards or anything like that ,most of us have wives and children to worry about". Sorry, when your feelings are those - why don't you bring your wife and children to a safe place when you think Samui isn't?

Anyhow my next door neighbor is an influential Thai - and my landlord is his relative.

[lazeeboy]

Why are you still here??

"not because we are cowards or anything like that ,most of us have wives and children to worry about". Sorry, when your feelings are those - why don't you bring your wife and children to a safe place when you think Samui isn't?

Anyhow my next door neighbor is an influential Thai - and my landlord is his relative.

i've lived in samui for 14 years ,i dont get involved with problems that could endanger me or my family ,and yes i know all the big familes ,im polite to them when i see them but dont get too frendly ,like to keep a low profile ,i find its a lot safer that way

[keepsamuiclean]

Low profile is my thing too. Keeping away from gossip and keeping away from blaming the second next neighbor about releasing shit to the ocean. But I do not know how long I will be patient as it really hurts me what is going on on Samui.

[highdiver]

what exactly do you ant to raise before the govenor(district chief)?

the land sale? if they are done legit there is nothing he can do.

the new shopping mall. is a legit deal with building pemits according to the new building code controll.

the construction companies..

all the above have nothing to do with the distict chief. they have to do with the municipality and the mayor.

and as the mayor needs the local voting for him he will take into consideration your views but he will do what is best for the Samui voters.

i think you have the right motivation but I think many locals will not agree with you. they want progress. they dont want to remain a cocnut island.

everybody wants to make money.. farrangs and locals and when you go interfeing with that . you are taking a chance of pissing somone of.

if you wish to have quiet and no construction .....buy a private island and do what you want...

[southbot]

Actually the Thais here don't mind one bit if Farangs get involved in some local issues. Not all local issues of course, but some are OK.

The issue of noise polution is a hard one as the Thais have a totally different concept of what constitutes "noise" than what we Farang folk have. Most Thais don't seem to give a hoot about construction noise, karaoke base, fire crackers.

Strewth, my missus could sleep through a Boeing 747 crashing into the roof no worries!

Quite some years back such groups were formed, already done. Such groups would try to deal with issues such as polution, planning, zoning, garbage collection, sewerage treatment, marine health issues and other items less controversial.

There was an environmental group, a "green Samui group", used to meet at Santi Buri and places like that, discuss environmental issues and stuff. Thais and Farangs from several walks of life including business, government and education.

It worked OK for a while but then developed problems. It was often hard to get anything done because any idea had to go from here to ther e, back again and over to Surat whereupon it would be ignored in any case, Samui was not important enough, did not have any pull or punch.

There was another effort made based around an image of a Monkey named "Samui Sam". This effort involved more of the issue of rubbish bins, garbage polution and stuff like that. It also worked for a while then died out.

I think such a group could formed again.

One big problem we had was the amount of people who would use the meetings as their own personal platform for their own ends, not those of the common goal and good. Farang and Thai were guilty of that one.

The problem is the people, the humans. It would work fine if you didn't have to involve them, eh?

A lot of the existing "clubs", "networks" and "groups" all appear to have their own agendas or those of their members.

More of  social gatherings than problem solving events on the whole it seems.

But generally this CAN be done and the Thais don't mind at all as long as the Farangs stay away from politics, religion or laying direct blame for any problem on any person or body/entity. Kind of like half a mouth gag on all the time but it could be done nonetheless.

The OP should form such a group themselves, eh?

[keepsamuiclean]

Just found out about The Meermaid of Samui Group and will try to join (if there is no language problem...). Thais and farangs together are anyhow better. Will inform if something is working out.

Thanks, Southbot for moral support.

And highdiver: I am clearly for restrictive development, not for a Robinson island.

[highdiver]

Just found out about The Meermaid of Samui Group and will try to join (if there is no language problem...). Thais and farangs together are anyhow better. Will inform if something is working out.

Thanks, Southbot for moral support.

And highdiver: I am clearly for restrictive development, not for a Robinson island.

just for the record me too. and the new construction law aims to do this.unfortunetly many project got permits before it was passed.

It has been my experince... as Southbot pointed out that those groups dont realy get something done and they spend more time talking then doing. afer joining several groups I gave up.

I also found that the mayor and the district chief are very keen to listen and implement many ideas but they dont have the budget for it.

there are a few "better of" Farrangs in my area that i tried to recruit to various projects and every one was excited about and gave great ideas.....it untill we came to the point of having to give money to get those things done....

when it comes to putting your money where your mouth is.... some just vaporised.... all talk and no walk..

I am contibuting directly to 2 public schools and i found out that doing it directly is the most efficiant way to do it. my only request from the school was to dedicate some lessons on enviroment. I belive that you cant fix this generation but we have more chance in the future if we start educating now.

I am not the only one.. there are many good hearted farrangs that live here that have and are contibuting with know how and personal funds to help the comunity.

I would like to praise you for taking a step in doing something for the comunity. I can only hope that we will have more like you in samui.

[highdiver]

p.s just look at what happened to those farrangs that devoted time to be tourist police volenteers.

peoople who went out and actually did something.

they were ridiculed and bashed all over the TV forum...

[Samuian]

How about this?

I don't know why these Signs are only to be seen in Tambon Maret (Lamai Area) but it's a step - there has been "Keep Samui Clean" "Green Samui" Campaigns and so on... but as it has been said already - it turned out that initiators behind these and other activities have a personal agenda taking advantage of "green" Issues.

Besides I do agree very much with the other posters, about "the Tahi way".. they ARE aware that not all is perfect on Samui - but here again - the main Issue is that the "orders" and the Budget still allocated by the SURATTHANI Municipality!

There is a Squadron of cleaners around in the wee hours of the morning, the clear the roadsides, the "Salaeng Man" is collecting Plastic Bottles, Glass, Plastic in general, Paper, Cardboard...

In Berlin - Germany - where I come from, we had "wild garbage" tips in the forests and Parks too, it took 30-40 years that the people understood that it is there "own" yard, they're polluting!

"the Family" a Christian Organization is carefully promoting these issues in schools on Samui.

I do know the Governor and the Vice G. and, and, and a lot of other "influential" people of Samui...

they ARE aware of the situation... but it will take time - because in this country NOBODY likes to point the finger at someone, nobody likes to blame someone, no one want trouble... maybe it will be slow... for western understanding, but it IS happening!

And believe me, if you happen to make millions and millions, would you be "concerned" about environmental issues, especially if your company is spending huge amounts on landscaping??

And not to forget, many of these people here had Coconuts,Sand and Sea all their life until WE came.....!!!!

Edited August 22, 2007 by Samuian

[keepsamuiclean]

Samuian - think the signs were a trial, put up with just about 5 mtr distance to each other - without any supporting garbage bin - and after a few weeks the first fell down. I am afraid almost all are now garbage itselves.

That the problems are well known is promising, that it is slow here is for sure. But we cannot wait for 40 years.

Just thinking that here is a new resort with the name "Atlantis" - nomen est omen??

If I were earning mios and mios I would put heavy amounts into measurements for environmental protection like sun energy, garbage pressing, shredders; now I can only try not to damage the environment by having no car and going with songthaews as often as possible, save on electricity with saving bulbs and proper wiring, do not burn garden garbage, get the toilet tanks emptied - not into the sea, have city water and not a well, keep my old trees, do not intend to construct new but demolished bungalows and put a green house instead.

To your sentence:

"And not to forget, many of these people here had Coconuts,Sand and Sea all their life until WE came.....!!!!"

I have to state that my place is better off than before. My landlord said 6 years ago, that the foreigners would build the future of Samui - but he did not think of 3 or 4 big shopping centers or a water park in the hills.

[ClaudeFeller]

These signs are typical for the municipality:

Good intention but no idea at all! There is no public garbage bin in whole Samui

At least a lot of money for Aksorn or whoever did the printing job.

Spend half of the money but buy some garbage bin instead of 1000 ugly signs.

[PaulAllen]

Did anyone read the signs?

It isn't telling you to put garbage in a bin it is telling you when to put your garbage by the road. From 7 p.m. to 5 a.m. But someone said the trash trucks are around at like 9 in the morning anyway so I guess someone forgot to tell them or maybe they didn't read the signs either.

[keepsamuiclean]

Yes Paul Allen, I read them. But what is the sense of a nice picture when there is no garbage bin to put it in between 7 pm and 5 am? Where have all the blue "OTTO" containers gone? Putting a black garbage bag on the road attracts the dogs at night. I like the dogs during the day and besides of our two I am feeding two visiting dogs so that they do not have to open garbage. But the others?

[SamuiJens]

Yes Paul Allen, I read them. But what is the sense of a nice picture when there is no garbage bin to put it in between 7 pm and 5 am? Where have all the blue "OTTO" containers gone? Putting a black garbage bag on the road attracts the dogs at night. I like the dogs during the day and besides of our two I am feeding two visiting dogs so that they do not have to open garbage. But the others?

Sometimes the Ban Rak area looks like a dump, because of lack of, and as you say, the dogs will get the bags opened!

[highdiver]

the solution is real easy...

as you are so keen to do something lets do it....

go to the mayor and tell him everything there is to tell about waste mangement.

he will fully heartedly agree with you.... and you will probably be surprised if you speak to him that he is well aware of the problems and the way to solve them...

then he will show you the yearly budget of samui and explain that he does not have enough money. he will also explain to you that the municipality has bought last year 4 or 5 rubbish trucks but its just not enouh so they have to go around even up to 10 am an still they can handle the load.

so if you really want to help. he wil ask you to get him rubbish bins.. you know the big ones.. and maybe 10-15 trucks.while we are at it throw in 2-3 Madvac Litter Pickers: Vacuum sweepers to clean roads and sidewalks and roads

so lets see:

rubbish Bins for all the island.... about 500-600 big ones should do it. 1t about 25k a unit is about 15 million.

rubbish trucks for all the island .. about 15 trucks rear load would be about 3.5-4 million a truck. is about 52 million

2-3 vacume sweepers... at about 3 million are about 9 million.

so the budget should be around 70-75 million...but we know what will happen if we just give the money... it may disappear along the way or somone will make a nice comission and we dont that so better we buy it and give it to the people of Samui.

I will even make it easy for you where to get it:

Taepakorn Brother Co., Ltd.

Address: 80/97 Moo 6, Bang Yai, Nonthaburi, 11140, Thailand

Tel: 9263603

Fax: 9033818

http://www.taepakorn.com/about_e.html

or better try and look at this company.

http://www.royalequipment.co.th/Products.aspx?CatID=6

they realy care for the enviroment..

but as we would like to do it right..... lets compare prices and get the best deal so here are all the companies that deal in waste management..

http://www.hotfrog.in.th/Products/Waste-Ma...ipment-Services

bottom line we need about 70 million to get this moving.

now we can open a NPO headed by farrangs and thai and give it a nice name like SOS .

We can ask all our dear friends and members of TV who regularly have something to say about how thing are not managed well to dig in thier pockets and actually do something to help samui.....I am afraid you want get to much there..

We can even go around to the big hotels and busineses and ask them for a donation as it is tax detuctable. and maybe go around contributing the local rich Thai business man as well. and then we can ask the locals to assist as well.

now lets see if we can get something moving.

the ball is in your court.

[keepsamuiclean]

highdiver - this is a nice answer!! Also frustrated in a certain way? Seems that we really should come together for some kind of improvement. I do not have your estimated millions, sorry! If you like send my a pm and then we can have further dicussions - and perhaps a few solutions,

[ClaudeFeller]

The budget is not the problem as long as they collect just 30 Baht a month for private household and (I think) 200 Baht for hotels and resort.

Water, electrictiy, waste: The whole public supply is ridiculously cheap!

[Samuian]

...save on electricity with saving bulbs and proper wiring, do not burn garden garbage, get the toilet tanks emptied - not into the sea, have city water and not a well, keep my old trees, do not intend to construct new but demolished bungalows and put a green house instead.

I am managing a hotel where we have implemented exactly this and some more, like a large underground rain water collecting containment 200 m3! The hot air from A/C is used to produce the hot water...as well as the cooling for the a/c!

o your sentence:

"And not to forget, many of these people here had Coconuts,Sand and Sea all their life until WE came.....!!!!"

I have to state that my place is better off than before. My landlord said 6 years ago, that the foreigners would build the future of Samui - but he did not think of 3 or 4 big shopping centers or a water park in the hills.

Well... I think the big malls are not all that bad after all.... but a 7/11 or a family mart on every corner... destroys the income of all the small businesses.

Well lets hope Atlantis is not NOMEN EST OMEN!

And work towards it - its right - each and every one kicks in - things will be brighter!

@highdiver: as Claude wrote: The budget is not the problem - but it goes ALLL to Surat and from there it is relocated to the Ampoe's!

And today I SAW THE FIRST VAC-CLAENER CAR On the new Bypass Rd. Chaweng!

As they are going to have this fair again - around the Lake... wait when they pack in - horror!

Like all other fairs... the entire fiargrounds are completely littered with rubbish - mainly discarded plastic bags...

we start from here, from right below our hair or hat!

A figure from a few years ago was that Samui and KPG had collected a swooping 480 Mill. Tax wad!

Edited August 23, 2007 by Samuian

[keepsamuiclean]

Samuian, you said before that it's going slow here, that people know the problems but nobody dares to point his fingers to somebody else. And I agree fully with it.

When your hotel implemented several measurements why not PROMOTE these measurements to the people you know and talk about it that other new constructions of big hotels do not get a building permit without doing the same. As you are the manager it could be that your bosses are Thai and would be glad when their hotel is a forerunner in environmental protection. A talk to Community Magazine could help, to report about the hotels which are a a kind of forerunner already. I know some more who would qualify regarding recycling and nature protection. Then all concerns could start on a positive level.

Anyhow was quite astonished about the tax amount of 480 mio. If this figure is now similar highdivers calculation is affordable.

And Claude, I have a small resort and pay for garbage removal 150 Baht/month since 2001. Told them a few times I would like to pay more....., nothing more than a smile came up. Knowing owners of houses in the hills who bring their garbage to the Tesco bins as there is no collection point. They really could earn more money.

[Samuian]

....your bosses are Thai and would be glad when their hotel is a forerunner in environmental protection. A talk to Community Magazine could help, to report about the hotels which are a a kind of forerunner already.

They are, believe me and people DO look at the new technology being implemented here! We got 100 Points out of one hundred!

Yes, there is money but as I wrote it ALL goes into the Coffers of Suratthani, then it is redistributed and Samui sees only a trickle of what is actually collected here and on KPG!

One must understand Thai-Society first, it is a very different fabric then this of western societies! Much more relaxed and things do happen without much noise and tohoowabohoo.

People from western societies are quick to judge, quick to point the finger, here it is frowned upon.

As I wrote just yesterday I saw the first Vac-Cleaner-Vehicle and it is a beginning!

The can't charge you more for the garbage collection - because there aren' only farang people here on the island!

but also low-income earners!

In the early days EVERYONE did dig in and burn the garbage, we have so far come already a long way!

I am NOT a keen friend of the community magazine, sorry!

All these maps, brochures, Magazines ADD to the garbage problem we are discussing here!

They are printed to line the pockets of the issuers! They all could have an environmental issue in EVERY Single publishing, but they don't, so why expect them to change things.

is there one publishing that is made from RECYCLED paper? NO? but on top they all are going high-gloss!

They rainbow warrior has anchored on the shores of samui....

We, each and every single individual starts to change his/her attitude towards consumption, produces less garbage, refusing plastic bags when shopping, buys organically grown vegies, support environmental action - THATS THE WAY TO GO!

I don't drive a car... even there are. Do take the bike only when necessary. the last resort i have been managing became a green oasis!

We should discuss how to, who is the culprit and what is wrong, pointing fingers, whining an wailing is wrong - i guess...

to start somewhere each one in his/hers own little backyard... is the only way to go.

Edited August 24, 2007 by Samuian

[keepsamuiclean]

"The can't charge you more for the garbage collection - because there aren' only farang people here on the island!

but also low-income earners!"

But the entry fees to National Parks are also higher for foreigners than for Thais... and hotels and resorts are certainly not branded with the lable of low-income earners! Let it be according to the number of rooms; a private family is paying 30 Baht per month, a resort with 12 rooms has to pay 360 Baht plus 120 Baht for the restaurant, a resort with 40 rooms 1200 Baht plus 400 Baht for the restaurant and so on.

[ClaudeFeller]

"The can't charge you more for the garbage collection - because there aren' only farang people here on the island!

but also low-income earners!"

But the entry fees to National Parks are also higher for foreigners than for Thais... and hotels and resorts are certainly not branded with the lable of low-income earners! Let it be according to the number of rooms; a private family is paying 30 Baht per month, a resort with 12 rooms has to pay 360 Baht plus 120 Baht for the restaurant, a resort with 40 rooms 1200 Baht plus 400 Baht for the restaurant and so on.

Garbage:

Who pays 30 B for garbage collection?

Only those thai peoples who cannot burn their garbage behind the house or those who are concerned about their garbage or the resorts/hotels/"house for rent". I would like to know how much a hotel has to pay (Samuian, tell us!).

The fees are countrywide, they cannot be fixed on our will.

Water:

It is 8 Baht/m³ for private households - thats ridiculous. For commercial use the monthly fees are 200 Baht, if they use more than 25 m³ they additional amount costs 10-12 Baht/m³. No reason to save water. But here too the fees are countrywide.

Electricity:

The unit is 3,6 Baht per kWh, for more than 500 (?) units it is about 4 Baht. Again no reason to save energy and the fees are countrywide.

But things are maybe changing like we can see on the plans to let the Nathon Hospital be a private company.

Maybe one day the garbage/water/electricity fees will be more realistic too.

[Rooo]

"The can't charge you more for the garbage collection - because there aren' only farang people here on the island!

but also low-income earners!"

But the entry fees to National Parks are also higher for foreigners than for Thais... and hotels and resorts are certainly not branded with the lable of low-income earners! Let it be according to the number of rooms; a private family is paying 30 Baht per month, a resort with 12 rooms has to pay 360 Baht plus 120 Baht for the restaurant, a resort with 40 rooms 1200 Baht plus 400 Baht for the restaurant and so on.

Garbage:

Who pays 30 B for garbage collection?

Only those thai peoples who cannot burn their garbage behind the house or those who are concerned about their garbage or the resorts/hotels/"house for rent". I would like to know how much a hotel has to pay (Samuian, tell us!).

The fees are countrywide, they cannot be fixed on our will.

Water:

It is 8 Baht/m³ for private households - thats ridiculous. For commercial use the monthly fees are 200 Baht, if they use more than 25 m³ they additional amount costs 10-12 Baht/m³. No reason to save water. But here too the fees are countrywide.

Electricity:

The unit is 3,6 Baht per kWh, for more than 500 (?) units it is about 4 Baht. Again no reason to save energy and the fees are countrywide.

But things are maybe changing like we can see on the plans to let the Nathon Hospital be a private company.

Maybe one day the garbage/water/electricity fees will be more realistic too.

Realistic to whom Claude?

[ClaudeFeller]

Realistic concerning the real costs to

- install and maintain an undersea cable for a huge demand of electricity

- install and maintain high voltage cables on a ring road without enough space

- burn the garbage in a expensive, oil fired waste treatment plant

- deliver fresh water by truck, built a million baht groundwater dam, built three waste water plants and not using them

[keepsamuiclean]

Asked my staff - nobody is paying for garbage collection. They put it to a certain place or at the road and then it's gone -or not. One said that only owners of a house have to pay and he only rented the land and built a small bungalow.

I would like to "sponsor" the wild garbage collection for my staff of four with 500 Baht per month. But this should reach the accounts of Tessaban and spend for the purpose of garbage collection. How can this be done?