Thailands History

[jaiyenyen]

Hi

Now that i am living in Thailand, i would like to learn a bit more about it's history.

I've tried asking my G/F but all i get is a blank look (i have that effect on women).

Can anyone recommend any books?

Regards Jaiyenyen

[pgs]

um - where do you want to start?

Any particular part of history you're interested in, or just general from as early as possible?

[jaiyenyen]

Yes, sorry, i should have been more specific.

I am more interested in the last 500 years or so, and just a general history of events that have happenned in the country and to it's people.

[garro]

'Thailand: a short history' by David Wyatt is a good start although I found it a bit dry.

Four Reigns by Kukrit Pramoj is a work of finction but gives a description of Thailand at the turn of the century.

'Buddha in the Jungle' and 'Forest recollections' by Kalama gives an excellent insight into life of the common Thai man at the beginning of the century.

There is also tons of stuff available on the internet if you do a search.

[Upcountry]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand

That'll get you started. If you have decent Internet access you can find a lot of history and cultural background information about Thailand in general, and about individual cities and provinces. Some travel/accommodation web sites have interesting information about parts of Thailand, and history, as well.

[ColPyat]

Hi

Now that i am living in Thailand, i would like to learn a bit more about it's history.

I've tried asking my G/F but all i get is a blank look (i have that effect on women).

Can anyone recommend any books?

Regards Jaiyenyen

History is danger zone in Thailand. Very difficult subject.

Here is a link that shows why:

Problems in Contemporary Thai Nationalist Historiography

by Patrick Jory

http://kyotoreview.cseas.kyoto-u.ac.jp/iss...rticle_251.html

In this paper you get an excellent overview, and it also mentions names of some very capable historians.

[threelegcowboy]

Go to a large shopping center like in Pattaya or BKK and find a BOOK STORE. Bookzine is one and there are several others. Used book stores can be found. If you cant find any ask this thread or any long term falang where to find (and tell what neighborhood you live in). If you travel by air then buy from the expensive airport book shops. There are a ton of Thai history books.

[Payboy]

Hi

Now that i am living in Thailand, i would like to learn a bit more about it's history.

I've tried asking my G/F but all i get is a blank look (i have that effect on women).

Can anyone recommend any books?

Regards Jaiyenyen

are you looking for the unadultrated, unabridged version, or are you looking for the official version?

Edited August 25, 2007 by Payboy

[jaiyenyen]

Thanks for your help everyone,the book reccommendations are very helpfull Garro.

Regards

Jaiyenyen

[Goshawk]

that's interesting.. my post has disappeared.

it's only a book mods...

[ColPyat]

that's interesting.. my post has disappeared.

it's only a book mods...

It's a bit of a touchy subject here...

The writer is blacklisted, and the book is not sold in Thailand. Better not to mention both here.

[Aujuba]

Do some searches on wikipedia there is a lot of information there. Amazingly you can even find some info on the books which are under the table in LOS.

[PeaceBlondie]

The wikipedia article seems brief. This was the only comment on world war two: "During the war, Thailand was allied with Japan." Recently I asked a dinner table full of Thai ajarns (who don't teach history) whether Thailand was occupied by the Japanese Army during the war. They insisted no, and I dropped the subject like a hot chili pepper. However, wasn't there something about a death railroad built on the River Kwai in Kanchanaburi? Didn't the Thai ambassador bring a declaration of war to Secretary Hull (the USA's secretary of state, foreign affairs minister), and Hull ignored it?

[garro]

I don't think it is possible to get a correct history about any country.

History is constantly rewritten to explain where we are today.

I prefer personal histories such as those provided by Kalama.

I think the best critique of history was provided by Tolstoy in 'War and Peace'.

He argued that every single person on the planet takes part in any historical event but only the view of a powerful minority ever gets heard and this we call history.

[PeaceBlondie]

Speaking of Tolstoy, is War and Peace consistent with the fact that he was a Christian pacifist near the end of his life?

Whoops, I didn't mean to get off subject. I read another Wiki article that clearly says Japan occupied Thailand during the ww2, and after Japan lost, Thailand was considered a conquered territory. Then the US intervened against British and French interests, only insisting that certain provinces be returned to those imperial powers.

[roietjimmy]

Try, "A History of Thailand" authored by Chris Baker and Pasuk Phongpaichit and published by Cambridge University Press. It can be found in bookstores throughout Bangkok.

An easy read covering major events from 1351 thru 2001.

[Andrew Hicks]

Hi

Now that i am living in Thailand, i would like to learn a bit more about it's history.

I've tried asking my G/F but all i get is a blank look (i have that effect on women).

Can anyone recommend any books?

Regards Jaiyenyen

The best one is 'A History of Thailand' by Chris Baker and Pasuk Phongpaichit, Cambridge, 2005.

It's thoroughly scholarly but very readable. I couldn't put it down, as they say.

[roietjimmy]

Hi

Now that i am living in Thailand, i would like to learn a bit more about it's history.

I've tried asking my G/F but all i get is a blank look (i have that effect on women).

Can anyone recommend any books?

Regards Jaiyenyen

The best one is 'A History of Thailand' by Chris Baker and Pasuk Phongpaichit, Cambridge, 2005.

It's thoroughly scholarly but very readable. I couldn't put it down, as they say.

Two votes for "A History of Thailand". Great minds think alike

[Andrew Hicks]

Hi

Now that i am living in Thailand, i would like to learn a bit more about it's history.

I've tried asking my G/F but all i get is a blank look (i have that effect on women).

Can anyone recommend any books?

Regards Jaiyenyen

The best one is 'A History of Thailand' by Chris Baker and Pasuk Phongpaichit, Cambridge, 2005.

It's thoroughly scholarly but very readable. I couldn't put it down, as they say.

Two votes for "A History of Thailand". Great minds think alike

We old blokes must stick together!

[Sateev]

Wyatt's Thailand: A Short History is top notch, although sometimes turgid.

Come to think of it, so am I.

Sateev

[ovenman]

Wyatt's Thailand: A Short History is top notch, although sometimes turgid.

The Wyatt book is a good read, probably more than enough Thai history for the casual reader. The Wyatt book's shortcoming in my opinion is that it becomes rather thin when it reaches the twentieth century. One will have to look else where for modern Thai history.

[jumnien]

There is a very good book regarding the recurring power struggle in Thai Society that gives a lot of insight into the present political situation. It's currently not for sale in Thailand and I'm not sure if its against forum rules to mention its title. On a quick trip to KL or Singapore you might want to pick up a copy.

[Tod Daniels]

You are unlikely to find anything closely resembling the true account of thai history inside the glorious "Land 'O Thais". You are far more likely to find books on it outside the country which bear at least a semblance of the truth. Inside the country you are only able to get books which do not stray far from the "officially sanctioned" version.

Thais are oh-so selective in their perception and the memory of their country's history. I have also found them for the most part to take offense easily to anyone who might challenge "thai history according to thais". Just last week I was nearly in a shouting match with a fairly educated thai who too offense that I mentioned the King (note the respectful capitalization), is an American by birthright. They insisted he was born in the glorious "Land 'O Thais", when in fact he was born just outside of Cambridge Massachusetts. Straying away from the forbidden topic of the monarchy, I have found most thais grasp of history even as recent as WWII is sketchy at the very best.

You have to realize history is written by the winners. I believe the last big 'win' the glorious "Land 'O Thais" had was when they pushed the Burmese back into their country after they sacked Ayutthaya in the 18th century. There are many internet sites which have at least some measure of truth in them but I would shy away from any site written by a thai national or hosted in this country as they will most likely have only the ‘for public consumption’ version.

If you are out of the country I would pick up the 'banned' book, whose name cannot be mentioned. It is definitely an interesting read and certainly makes for some thoughtful reflection on all things whacky and wonderful going on inside the glorious “Land ‘O Thais”.

Edited August 26, 2007 by tod-daniels

[steveromagnino]

The wikipedia article seems brief. This was the only comment on world war two: "During the war, Thailand was allied with Japan." Recently I asked a dinner table full of Thai ajarns (who don't teach history) whether Thailand was occupied by the Japanese Army during the war. They insisted no, and I dropped the subject like a hot chili pepper. However, wasn't there something about a death railroad built on the River Kwai in Kanchanaburi? Didn't the Thai ambassador bring a declaration of war to Secretary Hull (the USA's secretary of state, foreign affairs minister), and Hull ignored it?

You mean Ambassador M.R. Seni Pramote? As I recall he said he had something to present, but did not wish to, so Hull said, then don't.

Hence both parties knew of but did not officially recognise the declaration of war. And subsequently the Pramote family were heavily involved in backing the resistance.

Indeed history is written by the victors, and is seldom a true and clear view of the actual events. The idea that Thailand would have had any choice in the matter to not accept Japanese coming in is ludicrous; Singapore lasted how many days/hours and was the bastion the the UK here in Asia???!

e.g. America's Cup - USA version: we sailed one boat from USA to Britain, beat 15 challengers around an island 1 against 15, and so we won a cup we held for 151 years. Everyone else's version -USA did indeed sail across, but were coming second when they took a shortcut over a reef that was expressly prohibited in the verbal race instructions, but had for some reason not been written down in the written race instructions. Had they not done that, they would not have won.

Regarding most other history sources; the banned book is perhaps 80% right, and 20% pure fantasy. The journal article runs at similar stats; maybe not quite hitting 80% truth - Duncan makes a great story teller - like the Davinci code throwing in some facts with some theories throughout can be strangely compelling and believable. By combining multiple data sources only then is the truth revealed. And wikipedia is at least part truth; only by reading a LOT of other information are you likely to get a decent picture of the real story.

Baker/Phongpaichit have written a fair bit, not just books but articles etc as well; I think they are perhaps the single most balanced source - even the Taksin book was to me very evenly balanced and fairly non partisan.

Tod-Daniels: the fact that Thailand did not become a colony while all other nations in the area did is a victory of sorts. Your point of history is written by the winners to set up your punchline of last great military success is a bit harsh - after all measuring success of a country in terms of military victories as some foreigners and Thais love to do is a fairly pointless exercise; being an army grunt is perhaps the job in the world requiring almost the lowest possible IQ/EQ. Witness various superpower's intepretations of various wars and success thereof e.g. Vietnam to see how far that sort of thinking can get you :-) As for your 'fairly educated Thai friend' I suspect that not a single Thai friend of mine does not know that our beloved King was born in USA; fairly educated is perhaps a relative term.

My own feeling is pretty much most people worldwide have a terrible understanding of pretty much anything outside their own direct job, group of friends and racial group. Some know a tiny bit about their country's history, but here in Thailand the education system being not so hot, Thais certainly don't set any records in terms of knowing much about the history of Thailand, any more than most Americans or other nationalities know much about theirs. And yes, plenty of meddling going on in terms of what is taught; hopefully things are improving and not getting worse!

Compared to the odd person you meet who has an almost encylopaedia like knowledge of poets, playwrights, composers and statesmen from their country, seems like most of the people in the world these days instead of learning that, have an encyclopadia like knowledge of porn websites, quotes from Sienfeld and cheat codes for playstation. Not that there is anything wrong with that. And as a Thai, I'd sadly put many (but far from all Thais) in that category. But if you want, there is a library for economic research and countless books written in Thai outlining many of the good and bad aspects of Thai history; far from biased; just head over to the house that Rama 5 built in the compound near the UN; I haven't been there for a while, but HUGE amounts of reading material there.

[Mid]

Indeed history is written by the victors,

japan ....................

just one of many , not so sweeping mate .

[garro]

I think it is very easy to criticize how other countries present their history and forget the lies, about our own country's history, we soaked up from history books in school. You only have to look at the drunken Brit on holiday singing 'Rule Britannia' or the drunken Paddy as he cries into his beer, while singing rebel songs, or the load American who informs everyone who will listen how we 'saved your asses' during WW2, to realize that all the history we have learned has been just a tool of manipulation. I don't think LOS should be singled out for criticism as it is just doing what every other country in the world does.

[steveromagnino]

I think it is very easy to criticize how other countries present their history and forget the lies, about our own country's history, we soaked up from history books in school. You only have to look at the drunken Brit on holiday singing 'Rule Britannia' or the drunken Paddy as he cries into his beer, while singing rebel songs, or the load American who informs everyone who will listen how we 'saved your asses' during WW2, to realize that all the history we have learned has been just a tool of manipulation. I don't think LOS should be singled out for criticism as it is just doing what every other country in the world does.

Truer words never spoken ;-)

For life in general, one minute we are thinking that student loans are the worst system in the world...until we start working and paying tax. We think all healthcare should be user pays...until a member of family gets terminally ill. We are totally pro the envinroment...but still drink bottled water, drive a gas guzzler and talk about how everyone else is to blame.

We despise buying imported junk from abroad, wish that Walmart would leave the mom and pops alone to 'help the poor people' then go shopping ourselves at factory outlet shops.

Takes a bit of brain power to separate the micro and macro view; same holds true for writing and publicising history. Always wondered as a kid why my mum read Chomsky and various other alternative views - its the only way to get a fair picture! Oz has a great episode on this with Augustus Hill :-)

[ColPyat]

Always wondered as a kid why my mum read Chomsky and various other alternative views - its the only way to get a fair picture! Oz has a great episode on this with Augustus Hill :-)

There is only one big difference between here and most developed countries/societies - there it is not illegal to research/publish/read all alternative views on history (as long as it is not racially inciting by blatantly faking history), and it is up to the individual to inform himself (or stay an idiot), while here research/publishing/reading too freely is under the threat of severe punishments by the "law".

[distortedlink]

THIS IS INTERESTING

THAILAND`S ROLE DURING WORLD WAR TWO

Thailand responded pragmatically to the military and political pressures of World War II. When sporadic fighting broke out between Thai and French forces along Thailand's eastern frontier in late 1940 and early 1941, Japan used its influence with the Vichy regime in France to obtain concessions for Thailand. As a result, France agreed in March 1941 to cede 54,000 square kilometers of Laotian territory west of the Mekong and most of the Cambodian province of Battambang to Thailand. The recovery of this lost territory and the regime's apparent victory over a European colonial power greatly enhanced Phibun's reputation.

Then, on December 8, 1941, after several hours of fighting between Thai and Japanese troops at Chumphon, Thailand had to accede to Japanese demands for access through the country for Japanese forces invading Burma and Malaya. Phibun assured the country that the Japanese action was prearranged with a sympathetic Thai government. Later in the month Phibun signed a mutual defense pact with Japan. Pridi resigned from the cabinet in protest but subsequently accepted the nonpolitical position of regent for the absent Ananda Mahidol.

Under pressure from Japan, the Phibun regime declared war on Britain and the United States in January 1942, but the Thai ambassador in Washington, Seni Pramoj, refused to deliver the declaration to the United States government. Accordingly, the United States refrained from declaring war on Thailand. With American assistance Seni, a conservative aristocrat whose antiJapanese credentials were well established, organized the Free Thai Movement, recruiting Thai students in the United States to work with the United States Office of Strategic Services (OSS). The OSS trained Thai personnel for underground activities, and units were readied to infiltrate Thailand. From the office of the regent in Thailand, Pridi ran a clandestine movement that by the end of the war had with Allied aid armed more than 50,000 Thai to resist the Japanese.

Thailand was rewarded for Phibun's close cooperation with Japan during the early years of war with the return of further territory that had once been under Bangkok's control, including portions of the Shan states in Burma and the four northernmost Malay states. Japan meanwhile had stationed 150,000 troops on Thai soil and built the infamous "death railway" through Thailand using Allied prisoners of war. As the war dragged on, however, the Japanese presence grew more irksome. Trade came to a halt, and Japanese military personnel requisitioning supplies increasingly dealt with Thailand as a conquered territory rather than as an ally. Allied bombing raids damaged Bangkok and other targets and caused several thousand casualties. Public opinion and, even more important, the sympathies of the civilian political elite, moved perceptibly against the Phibun regime and the military. In June 1944, Phibun was forced from office and replaced by the first predominantly civilian government since the 1932 coup.

Edited August 26, 2007 by distortedlink

[steveromagnino]

http://www.thingsasian.com/stories-photos/20378

Thanks Emperor Tud - good read :-)

I am fairly sure that I have heard either officially or via the family that this is how things went down; I'll check it out as to how exactly he refused to present it :-)

AS for the British, well that was how it was done back in the day, to the victor go the spoils and with it demands for reparation. USA had a better plan which has lead to a prolonged peace period for Germany and Japan - what is that quaint phrase that Eisenhower used - the industrial military complex - I think it was. Not a bad export for USA really.

During the cold war, very easy to wonder how THailand could stay a dictatorship so long, but communism was not so far from catching on here, plus a lot of the cash used to prop up guys like Marcos, the Shah and various army lads here went a long way to influencing and ensuring that didn't happen everywhere.