Welding Helmet-autodarken

[howto]

Have any experience with the Electronic Auto Darkening Welding Helmets?

Please share, where to purchase a decent inexpensive one?

I would especially appreciate comments from those using MIG or TIG.

*I don't weld, I burn rods and make sparks *

[chownah]

I don't know where to get one but would like one myself so if anyone knows where to get one in Chiangrai or Chiangmai or vicinity I'd like to know too. I have had a tiny bit of experience with one. It had an adjustable darkness setting so you could vary that for different types of welding and they work really well. On the other hand if you don't want to do alot of welding then the regular kind work fine too. I've never owned an automatic one and did virtually all of my welding with the flip up kind and with a little practice its not a problem....but you do need to get a reasonably good one of the flip up kind with a nicely adjustable knob for the friction on the flip up mechanism and a good solid fit on your head so that when you flip it up it says up and doesn't fall off your head in the flipping process. You've probably seen Thais weld by just holding the mask with one hand....I've never tried this but seems to work good for them.

Chownah

[Wee Jimmy]

I don't know where to get one but would like one myself so if anyone knows where to get one in Chiangrai or Chiangmai or vicinity I'd like to know too. I have had a tiny bit of experience with one. It had an adjustable darkness setting so you could vary that for different types of welding and they work really well. On the other hand if you don't want to do alot of welding then the regular kind work fine too. I've never owned an automatic one and did virtually all of my welding with the flip up kind and with a little practice its not a problem....but you do need to get a reasonably good one of the flip up kind with a nicely adjustable knob for the friction on the flip up mechanism and a good solid fit on your head so that when you flip it up it says up and doesn't fall off your head in the flipping process. You've probably seen Thais weld by just holding the mask with one hand....I've never tried this but seems to work good for them.

Chownah

Look in e-bay & get one sent out to Thailand.

Wee Jimmy.

[Gary A]

I bought one at Tool Pro in Udon Thani. It fits well and is lightweight. I'm quite satisfied with it. I don't remember how much it cost but it wasn't real expensive. Had it been expensive I would have remembered the price.

ADDED - I have a MIG welder and a buzz box. It has adjustable darkness control and works well for either type of welding.

Edited August 25, 2007 by Gary A

[v8tfcorty]

my work is based in laem chabang i use both mig and tig.

i use a different auto helmet for each welder but i brought both with me from australia.

all my other consumables come from diamond distributors/international they also sell auto helmets but ive never tried them.

they have shops in both laem chabang and bangkok i can supply the web address on monday.

any queries or questions dont be afraid to holla i weld day in day out......(not bad considering i was promoted to the office grrr)

[Clipped]

i used some of those really dark glasses before without a face mask and wearing shorts...

one week later i looked like a roast duck.

[Gary A]

i used some of those really dark glasses before without a face mask and wearing shorts...

one week later i looked like a roast duck.

I'm not too smart either. I always wear the helmet but for smaller jobs I weld in shorts, a T shirt and sandals. I have scars on the tops of my feet.

[Pond Life]

A cheap way to help the new welder.

Buy a Halogen spot lamp, 50 w will do, get it close to the work & you can see what your doing before the arc strikes.

[macan]

Slightly off-topic but i remembered a recent discussion on TIG welding that mentioned a brand of TIG welder that was a copy of a US brand, and I wondered if similar MIG outfits were also available here. I only see Stick and TIG welders in the DIY shops; had a look at the Diamond International site but only saw Lincoln Electric which I am guessing would be pretty expensive (they havent replied to my email enquiry yet)

I am looking for something to do repair work around the farm (pumps, handling tables, tanks) and some light fabrication with aluminium, stainless and mild steel but we dont need a professional set-up. Our mechanics are pretty good stick welders but as someone on the forum pointed out 'its like shaving with a spoon'.

So anybody got any recommendations for local suppliers and/or brands to look for?

[bina]

hey since u all brought it up:

can someone give me the words for all things welding:

anon has it in his head to buy a welder (not sure even in english what all the stuff is called) and we are having some language problems as technical thai is not my lexicon...

plasma welding

steel

other metal

he wants a small machine for same as macan wants... we are shopping around; in israel they cost about 4000+ shekels which seems to him outrageous. i tried to explain that safety and well made cost more then junk...

also, how are the metal rods called?

any company recommendations (provided i can find them here, not thru the net):

what should we be looking for??

he knows how to weld, but being thai, he is sort of haphazard about safety, proper useage and also identifying what he wants ...

thanx bina

[INDI12]

i hAVE 2 AUTO/ADJUSTABLE HELMETES IN MAEJO (OUTSIDE CHIANG MAI) I USE FOR FLUXCORE WIRE WELDING and they work great. One is new in box and other is used. I think i paid about $60 for it USD and brought them with me from states. would probably sell it for that amount. Won't be back until december though. Also i saw them in the Chinese hardware (what other kind is there) in chiang mai. On the fish market road behind the big fruit market on the ping river near the us consulate.Its the first major road behind fruit market. Big shop has alot of stuff and even some wire feed welders but no flux cored wire machines only gas when i was last there a year or so ago.. Also had some gas mig welders at the big tool shop corner of super highway and chotana road (or the road that leads to mae rim from super highway interecstion). I think its one of the only super highway intersections not completed yet...........

[JBL]

I dont mind the auto helmets too much, the only problem I have is mine only has a on button and it auto turns of after 5 min or so of non use, and I give mysefl an initail flash just to remind myself to turn it back on, I use it for both tig & mig but for som reason feel more comfortable using the manual flip type when I arc weld - no particular reason just my preferance

[howto]

Hey everyone...

Sorry for being absent, all the children have been sick for a the last week,

and I'm getting it too (kid's germs).

I do have info from my research since mid 2006...

I will share it.

The data in the tables are mostly from

- Northern Tools

- Harbor Freight

- a few misc places.

The text below was "lifted from several places and condensed,

it's not my words.

Do note that there is a "local Thai" company in my list that sells a AD helmet...

but it is +6 year old technology for an incredible amount of +100 usd.

A helmet I would not give $20 for.

---------------------

Range-Of-Specs_Auto-Darken-Welding-HelmetsWhile many welders still use the old static lens (non-electronic) helmet or mask,

once you use an auto-change (electronic) helmet you will never go back.

I'll start with a word of warning.

Many of this type helmet that sell for $50-70 are low quality.

Often they will not function as stated and will last for only a short while.

Buyer Beware.

No other welding item you ever purchase will affect you more than a good welding helmet.

Nowhere does the Expression "YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR" apply more than with an electronic helmet.

If you need to wait a little to get a better helmet, do it,

as you will probably be looking again shortly if you go too "cheap" on this product.

The biggest difference as they go up in price are features.

Adjustability, in arc sensing, delay, different shades etc.

* It is best to buy a helmet with adjustable shade 9-13 as we all have different tolerance to arc.

* Most users prefer the "adjustable shade control knob" to be external.

* The less expensive units will have much smaller viewing area, as small as 1.5 x 3" versus 2" x 4" on the better helmets.

All the top of the line helmets are within 1/4" of 2" x 4", the cartridge looks larger, but that is the viewing area.

* If you need a magnifier lens, note that not all units will accommodate them.

* Getting Flashed, It's true that even high-dollar AD hoods will flash in certain "out of position" work positions,

and 4 sensors greatly reduces this effect to nearly zero.

* All these helmets are good for stick welding, plasma torch (cutter) (scratch start) and some MIG.

* Many helmets will not work with welding/cutting processes such as

Plasma Torch (cutter) with High Frequency Pilot Start,

Low Amp DC TIG welding (at less than 10 amp)

Inverter Arc

The helmet will keep flashing throughout the weld process and no setting seems to affect it.

The reasons,

smoke hides the arc from the sensors

the "tip" hides the arc from the sensors

the arc is not bright enough (at low amps) to activate the sensors.

Better helmets do not have this problems and they will state they are compatible.

- Overhead Vertical welding of "any kind" is not recommended, the reason for this has to do with

the slag that can be dropped on the safety plate of the front of the helmet.

When slag hits the front shield in any other position it will readily bounce off, but

in the overhead position it will tend to lay there and melt through the plate and damage the (expensive) cartridge.

The replacement cartridge cost as much as a new helmet and "burning" is not covered by any warranty

- Power Source

Do not get a helmet that "only" uses regular AA or AAA batteries of any type (common, alkaline, NiCad)

"Solar Only" units need to be placed in actual sun from time to time or you will experience problems.

Solar assisted Lithium Batteries are best, average battery life is 1500-2000 hours.

Caution, some manufactures use a proprietary expensive battery replacement.

My Specs for Cheapest to Expensive AD Helmets

October 2006, helmets costing $70 are becoming available with all "high-end" features except for having 4 arc sensors.

September 2007, "high-end" $300 helmets costing are now available for $100~120.

Table 2006-10

Very Cheap chumsin.com

*Local Thai Entry Level Low Mid Level Mid Level High End Viewing Field 94 x 35 mm

(3.70 x 1.37 in) 90 x 40 mm

(3.54 x 1.57 in) 97 x 47 mm

(3.85 x 1.85 in) 97 x 47 mm

(3.85 x 1.85 in) 97 x 60 mm

(3.85 x 2.38 in) 97 x 60 mm

(3.85 x 2.38 in) Lens Speed (second) 1/3,600 1/1,000

*yes, slow 1ms 1/10,000 1/18,000 1/20,000 1/25,000 # of Arc Sensors 2 2 2 2 2 ~ 4 4 Clear Shade State 4 4 3-4 3-4 3-4 3-4 Shade Control No Adjustment

Fixed at #10 9-13

Adjust Knob

Internal 9-13

Adjust Knob

Internal 9-13

Adjust Knob

Internal or

External 9-13

Adjust Knob

Internal or

External 5-13

Adjust Knob

Internal or

External Sensitivity Control None None Internal Adjust Internal Adjust Internal Adjust Internal Adjust Delay Control None .10 ~ 1.0 sec .10 ~ 1.0 sec .10 ~ 1.0 sec .10 ~ 1.0 sec .10 ~ 1.0 sec UV Protection Shade 15 15 15 15 15 15 Lens Power Control On: Manual

Off: Auto On: Manual

Off: Auto On: Auto/Manual

Off: Auto On: Auto/Manual

Off: Auto On: Auto/Manual

Off: Auto On: Auto/Manual

Off: Auto Power Source Battery Only

Short Life

AA or AAA Solar assist

Replaceable

Lithium -Battery Only

-Solar Only

-Solar + Lithium Solar assist

Replaceable

Lithium Solar assist

Replaceable

Lithium Solar assist

Replaceable

Lithium Inverter Arc Capable No Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Mig or Mag/Co2 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Plasma Torch-scratch Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Plasma Torch-HFauto No No No No Yes Yes Low Amp TIG Rated No No Maybe 10 Amp Yes 10 Amp Yes 5 Amp Yes 5 Amp autogen oxy/acetylene No No No No Yes Yes Magnify Lens Holder No No adaptable? adaptable? sometimes Yes usually Yes Weight 14.3 oz (406 g) 18.3 oz (520 g) 16 oz (454g) 16 oz (454g) 18 oz (510g) 18 oz (510g) Cost

not worth $20

3,900 Bt

not worth 500 Bt

+/- $50

+/- $100

+/- $200

+/- $300

*2007-08-25

is now $100

Some changes a year later

Table 2007-08

Very Cheap chumsin.com

*Local Thai Entry Level Low Mid Level Mid Level High End Viewing Field 94 x 35 mm

(3.70 x 1.37 in) 90 x 40 mm

(3.54 x 1.57 in) 97 x 47 mm

(3.85 x 1.85 in) 97 x 47 mm

(3.85 x 1.85 in) 97 x 60 mm

(3.85 x 2.38 in) 97 x 60 mm

(3.85 x 2.38 in) Lens Speed (second) 1/3,600 1/1,000

*yes, slow 1ms 1/10,000 ~

1/18,000 1/20,000 ~

1/25,000 1/20,000 ~

1/25,000 1/25,000 # of Arc Sensors 2 2 2 2 4 4 Clear Shade State 4 4 4 3.5-4 3.5 3.5 Shade Control No Adjustment

Fixed at #10 9-13

Adjust

Internal 9-13

Adjust

Internal or

External 9-13

Adjust

Internal or

External 9-13

Adjust

Internal or

External 5-13

Adjust

Internal or

External Sensitivity Control None None Internal Adjust Internal Adjust Internal Adjust Internal Adjust Delay Control None 0.10 ~ 1.0 sec .10 ~ 1.0 sec .10 ~ 1.0 sec .10 ~ 1.0 sec .10 ~ 1.0 sec UV Protection Shade 15 15 15 15 15 15 Lens Power Control On: Manual

Off: Auto On: Manual

Off: Auto On: Auto/Manual

Off: Auto On: Auto/Manual

Off: Auto On: Auto/Manual

Off: Auto On: Auto/Manual

Off: Auto Power Source Battery Only

Short Life

AA or AAA Solar assist

Replaceable

Lithium Solar assist

Replaceable

Lithium Solar assist

Replaceable

Lithium Solar assist

Replaceable

Lithium Solar assist

Replaceable

Lithium Inverter Arc Capable No Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Mig or Mag/Co2 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Plasma Torch-scratch Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Plasma Torch-HFauto No No No No Yes Yes Low Amp TIG Rated No No Yes 10 Amp Yes 5 Amp Yes 5 Amp Yes 5 Amp autogen oxy/acetylene No No No No Yes Yes Magnify Lens Holder No No adaptable? adaptable? sometimes Yes usually Yes Weight 14.3 oz (406 g) 18.3 oz (520 g) 16 oz (454g) 16 oz (454g) 18 oz (510g) 18 oz (510g) Cost

not worth $20

3,900 Bt

not worth 500 Bt

+6 year old

technology

+/- $50

+/- $80

+/- $120

+/- $200

Hope this info it helps.

(I hope these tables are viewable once posted!)

[Gary A]

Here are the specifications on mine;

　　　　 Power Supply: Solar cells,No battery change required.

　　　　 Light State: Shade DIN 3 (4)

　　　　 Variable Shade: From DIN 9(8)to DIN 13(14)

　　　　 Viewing Area: 98X43mm (3.86X1.69)

　　　　 Switching Time: Light to Dark: 1/25000s.

　　　　　　　　　　　　　　 Dark to Light: Delay time adjustable

　　　　 Total Weight: 435g

　　　　 Helmet's gravity center adjustable

　　　　 Sensitivity: Adjustable.

I'm going to Tool Pro Thursday to buy some wire and a new tip for the torch. If I remember, I'll check on the price.

[howto]

Well, I have learned you cannot "paste" a html data table.

Does anybody know how I should provide this "data table"?

Will "text" work (spacing issue?)

I would prefer not doing an .xls attachment, but could.

Fever too high to mess with this much right now.

Hey v8tfcorty

would you please post that source address?

I'll have the missus give a call.

Hey pondlife

I have used the 50 halogen trick for some time.

It does work.

Even made my own "base" few years ago, magnetic (neo magnets) and a clamp.

Just getting too old and blind and was wondering if the AD helmet may help.

Hey macan

ummm, please stay on topic, may I suggest you start a new thread?

Please, I do not intend this to be rude.

Hey bina

ummm, please stay on topic, may I suggest you start a new thread?

Please, I do not intend this to be rude.

Hey Indi12

I may be interested in your helmet,

depends on the specs.

Talk to me about it please.

Hey JBL (my favorite loudspeaker)

Tanks for the heads up info...

I've also seen some complain about

*their nose being too close to the filter and causing smudges on the inside.

*the adjustment band being really cheap and breaking at the screws.

Thanx to all for the replies, I'm outta here and back to bed.

I have not felt this bad in years.

[v8tfcorty]

http://www.diamondinter.com/contact.html

[howto]

Hey everyone...

So I turned the datatables into gif images, moving forward...

[recap]

I do have info from my research since mid 2006...

I will share it.

The data in the tables are mostly from

- Northern Tools

- Harbor Freight

- a few misc places.

Do note that there is a "local Thai" company in my list that sells a AD helmet...

but it is +6 year old technology for an incredible amount of +100 usd.

A helmet I would not give $20 for.

My Specs for Cheapest to Expensive AD Helmets

October 2006, helmets costing $70 are becoming available with all "high-end" features except for having 4 arc sensors.

September 2007, "high-end" $300 helmets costing are now available for $100~120.

--------------------

[howto]

Here are the specifications on mine;

　　　　 Power Supply: Solar cells,No battery change required.

　　　　 Light State: Shade DIN 3 (4)

　　　　 Variable Shade: From DIN 9(8)to DIN 13(14)

　　　　 Viewing Area: 98X43mm (3.86X1.69)

　　　　 Switching Time: Light to Dark: 1/25000s.

　　　　　　　　　　　　　Dark to Light: Delay time adjustable

Sensitivity: Adjustable.

　　　　 Helmet's gravity center adjustable

　　　　 Total Weight: 435g

I'm going to Tool Pro Thursday to buy some wire and a new tip for the torch.

If I remember, I'll check on the price.

Hey Gary A,

those are decent specs.

Do you wish the viewing area was larger?

As it is a 2 arc sensor unit, does it "flash" you often?

And is it "manual on/Auto off"? JBL mentioned that as an annoyance.

Do let us know the price if you can get it.

Hey v8tfcorty

Thanks for posting that source address!

[Gary A]

Here are the specifications on mine;

　　　　 Power Supply: Solar cells,No battery change required.

　　　　 Light State: Shade DIN 3 (4)

　　　　 Variable Shade: From DIN 9(8)to DIN 13(14)

　　　　 Viewing Area: 98X43mm (3.86X1.69)

　　　　 Switching Time: Light to Dark: 1/25000s.

　　　　　　　　　　　　　Dark to Light: Delay time adjustable

Sensitivity: Adjustable.

　　　　 Helmet's gravity center adjustable

　　　　 Total Weight: 435g

I'm going to Tool Pro Thursday to buy some wire and a new tip for the torch.

If I remember, I'll check on the price.

Hey Gary A,

those are decent specs.

Do you wish the viewing area was larger?

As it is a 2 arc sensor unit, does it "flash" you often?

And is it "manual on/Auto off"? JBL mentioned that as an annoyance.

Do let us know the price if you can get it.

Hey v8tfcorty

Thanks for posting that source address!

The viewing area seems plenty big. Actually it never occurred to me that there may be bigger ones available. It has never flashed me so that must not be a problem. Then again, all my work is usually right in front of me so there are no odd positions. The darkness adjustment knob is on the left side and there is no on/off switch. It's probably more than three years old now and has never failed me. I'd really hate going back to a standard helmet. It seems kind of strange though, that when the Thais do any welding for me, they prefer the old standard helmet. That standard one has the lens that flips up rather than flipping the entire helmet.

[howto]

Here are the specifications on mine;

　　　　 Power Supply: Solar cells,No battery change required.

　　　　 Light State: Shade DIN 3 (4)

　　　　 Variable Shade: From DIN 9(8)to DIN 13(14)

　　　　 Viewing Area: 98X43mm (3.86X1.69)

　　　　 Switching Time: Light to Dark: 1/25000s.

　　　　　　　　　　　　　Dark to Light: Delay time adjustable

Sensitivity: Adjustable.

　　　　 Helmet's gravity center adjustable

　　　　 Total Weight: 435g

I'm going to Tool Pro Thursday to buy some wire and a new tip for the torch.

If I remember, I'll check on the price.

Hey Gary A,

those are decent specs.

Do you wish the viewing area was larger?

As it is a 2 arc sensor unit, does it "flash" you often?

And is it "manual on/Auto off"? JBL mentioned that as an annoyance.

Do let us know the price if you can get it.

Hey v8tfcorty

Thanks for posting that source address!

The viewing area seems plenty big. Actually it never occurred to me that there may be bigger ones available. It has never flashed me so that must not be a problem. Then again, all my work is usually right in front of me so there are no odd positions. The darkness adjustment knob is on the left side and there is no on/off switch. It's probably more than three years old now and has never failed me. I'd really hate going back to a standard helmet. It seems kind of strange though, that when the Thais do any welding for me, they prefer the old standard helmet. That standard one has the lens that flips up rather than flipping the entire helmet.

Hey Gary A

Thanks for replying...

Yes, my "old" current helmet has the lens that flips up.

Good to know that your "Tool Pro" helmet

- seems to be Auto On/Off

- it has an "external" darkness adjustment knob.

Please do try to get a "current price" for it.

***chownah, you paying attention? We are getting close to the truth!

[chownah]

***chownah, you paying attention? We are getting close to the truth!

Which truth is that?...did I miss something?

chownah

[Gary A]

Here are the specifications on mine;

　　　　 Power Supply: Solar cells,No battery change required.

　　　　 Light State: Shade DIN 3 (4)

　　　　 Variable Shade: From DIN 9(8)to DIN 13(14)

　　　　 Viewing Area: 98X43mm (3.86X1.69)

　　　　 Switching Time: Light to Dark: 1/25000s.

　　　　　　　　　　　　　Dark to Light: Delay time adjustable

Sensitivity: Adjustable.

　　　　 Helmet's gravity center adjustable

　　　　 Total Weight: 435g

I'm going to Tool Pro Thursday to buy some wire and a new tip for the torch.

If I remember, I'll check on the price.

Hey Gary A,

those are decent specs.

Do you wish the viewing area was larger?

As it is a 2 arc sensor unit, does it "flash" you often?

And is it "manual on/Auto off"? JBL mentioned that as an annoyance.

Do let us know the price if you can get it.

Hey v8tfcorty

Thanks for posting that source address!

The viewing area seems plenty big. Actually it never occurred to me that there may be bigger ones available. It has never flashed me so that must not be a problem. Then again, all my work is usually right in front of me so there are no odd positions. The darkness adjustment knob is on the left side and there is no on/off switch. It's probably more than three years old now and has never failed me. I'd really hate going back to a standard helmet. It seems kind of strange though, that when the Thais do any welding for me, they prefer the old standard helmet. That standard one has the lens that flips up rather than flipping the entire helmet.

Hey Gary A

Thanks for replying...

Yes, my "old" current helmet has the lens that flips up.

Good to know that your "Tool Pro" helmet

- seems to be Auto On/Off

- it has an "external" darkness adjustment knob.

Please do try to get a "current price" for it.

***chownah, you paying attention? We are getting close to the truth!

I did remember to take a look and the price for the helmet is 3,300 baht.

[howto]

Hey Gary A

Thanks for replying...

"I did remember to take a look and the price for the helmet is 3,300 baht."

A decent price. I want one.

Could you please post their phone number (easier for the missus).

[Gary A]

Hey Gary A

Thanks for replying...

"I did remember to take a look and the price for the helmet is 3,300 baht."

A decent price. I want one.

Could you please post their phone number (easier for the missus).

Sorry, I can't locate a phone number for them. The store is right on Outer Ring Road just east of the 210 and 2 intersection.

[howto]

Hey Chownah, The "truth"...

Umm, you are the only other to express an interest in obtaining one...

I don't know where to get one but would like one myself so if anyone knows where to get one in Chiangrai or Chiangmai or vicinity I'd like to know too...

Well here it is, please do not seem to be ungrateful to us.

[Paraphrased by Gary A]

"Gary A" gave us Specs from Tool Pro in Chaingmai...

　　　　 Power Supply: Solar cells,No battery change required.

　　　　 Light State: Shade DIN 3 (4)

　　　　 Variable Shade: From DIN 9(8)to DIN 13(14)

　　　　 Viewing Area: 98X43mm (3.86X1.69)

　　　　 Switching Time: Light to Dark: 1/25000s.

　　　　 Dark to Light: Delay time adjustable

Sensitivity: Adjustable.

　　　　 Helmet's gravity center adjustable

　　　　 Total Weight: 435g

Cost: 3300 baht

***Plus you got some additional very useful info...

The viewing area seems plenty big.

It has never flashed me so that must not be a problem.

Then again, all my work is usually right in front of me so there are no odd positions. The darkness adjustment knob is on the left side {external]

and there is no on/off switch [auto on/off].

It's probably more than three years old now and has never failed me.

I'd really hate going back to a standard helmet...

[end parapharase]

***Plus you saw the tables listing the state of helmets since 2006.

So there is the truth.

Chownah, You knew darn well what was ment by the "truth".

Don't be flippant. We don't want to read it.

Geez, I've been sick as a dog for 2 weeks and I''m not flippant.

Edited September 9, 2007 by howto

[howto]

Hey Gary A

Thanks for replying...

"Sorry, I can't locate a phone number for them. The store is right on Outer Ring Road just east of the 210 and 2 intersection."

Thanks for the location info.

Bit I live in Pathumtani close to Taalad Thai (inside outer ring road).

I'll have the missus look it up the number.

Still working on an answer from "diamondIntl".