Are Isaan Farmers 'poor'?

[tracer5050]

This Farang grew up on a farm. But I only tell them what I know dont mean they listen . But I know even in the south US how hard farming was and is.

You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink. My grandfather used to say.

Maybe thats why i went to school learned early on I did not want tpo be a farmer. now i am in the farming area.

[srisatch]

I live in a village far out in the rice fields of Surin and in my view many of my neighbours can be called poor. I've just got back from southern Laos and they are relatively poorer there, but I still think there is rural poverty throughout Thailand.

Do readers agree with this and more particularly what do they think of those whose view is that there is no poverty here?

I've come across a number of farang recently who point to the obvious signs of growing wealth and then conclude that there is no poverty. This opinion is recurrent and insistent and I am curious to know why.

Any thoughts?

And why do you live in a place like that? I have been there, done that and I don't want to do it again and I guess within a while you may feel the same; if for no other reason... the mind, body and spirit that has led you there will be wanting to buy a few Louis Vuitton bags and a 4x4 baby stroller. Anyway given the ludicrous price of land in Thailand the family in total probably not too impoverished. Of course there is rural 'poverty' by whatever criteria...I live in a rich Chinese town in the North. There are plenty of Benzes and plenty of squalid shacks . families have been accumulating wealth for generations. But the land here is fertile. Doubt the same could be said of The Weeping Plain. Or maybe you are holed up in a Wat? You are rich enough, I suppose, to go on your private journeys. Real poverty is to be stuck in Surin with lousy education, no prospects for your children, and nothing to hope for but a house with a blue roof, a big TV, winning the lottery and a Toyota Vigo. But that is probably no worse than working for Tesco in Sunderland and having a 100K mortgage, a drugged out teenage son, and no prospect of any savings, is it?

[the gent]

I think that poor is more a state of mind than anything. Take a person with enough to eat, a home to live in, and his family. He will be happy until someone convinces him he's poor.

A quite extraordinary philosophy and possibly one that may have an application if such a Utopian world envisaged by the poster were to be populated by rosy cheeked simpleton hobbits content to live happily ever after under window paned mushrooms sure in the knowledge that they have been guaranteed their rural idyll because the fairy godmother has made it so.

Unhappily, back in the real world the grim truth for many in Isaan is that they will never be free from the worry that one day illness or a meagre harvest may well push their miserable indebtedness into final bankruptcy. And until that day dawns what do they have to occupy their economically stunted lives? Nothing more than the interminable prospect of having to scratch around in the dirt to eke out a pointless existence shackled by the realisation their children may well do no better.

True contentment comes with the absence of anxiety and fear. Who in their right minds could possibly argue against the fact that for many in Isaan that ambition is nothing more than an impossible dream.

No bloody wonder the poor buggers are driven to drink and foolishness.

[LongThaimer]

I live in a village far out in the rice fields of Surin and in my view many of my neighbours can be called poor. I've just got back from southern Laos and they are relatively poorer there, but I still think there is rural poverty throughout Thailand.

Do readers agree with this and more particularly what do they think of those whose view is that there is no poverty here?

I've come across a number of farang recently who point to the obvious signs of growing wealth and then conclude that there is no poverty. This opinion is recurrent and insistent and I am curious to know why.

Any thoughts?

And why do you live in a place like that? I have been there, done that and I don't want to do it again and I guess within a while you may feel the same; if for no other reason... the mind, body and spirit that has led you there will be wanting to buy a few Louis Vuitton bags and a 4x4 baby stroller. Anyway given the ludicrous price of land in Thailand the family in total probably not too impoverished. Of course there is rural 'poverty' by whatever criteria...I live in a rich Chinese town in the North. There are plenty of Benzes and plenty of squalid shacks . families have been accumulating wealth for generations. But the land here is fertile. Doubt the same could be said of The Weeping Plain. Or maybe you are holed up in a Wat? You are rich enough, I suppose, to go on your private journeys. Real poverty is to be stuck in Surin with lousy education, no prospects for your children, and nothing to hope for but a house with a blue roof, a big TV, winning the lottery and a Toyota Vigo. But that is probably no worse than working for Tesco in Sunderland and having a 100K mortgage, a drugged out teenage son, and no prospect of any savings, is it?

?????

What would happen to Thailand, if all Issan farmers were to leave their land with no EDUCATION and no PROSPECTS for their children ??? Who will do the dirty farming jobs, rich CHINESE traders ????

If it wasn't for price collusion created by FILTHY RICH rice traders and corrupted government officials, and if Issan farmers were getting fair deal out of their hard work, they certainly wouldn't be as poor as they are now.

[OxfordWill]

No they are just pretending, and love living in huts and not having ipods.

[tracer5050]

As bad as it is the rich always get richer and the poor , well we all know

[bingobongo]

They seem to have new pick-up trucks like Toyota Vigos here in Khon Kaen.

This would say that, yes they are poor and can't afford a real car, but no they're not poor as they have new trucks.

don't mistake debt slavery for true wealth, i doubt that most of those new pick-up trucks are paid off. the number of NPLs on trucks/autos/motorcycles are climbing

[Bagwan]

This is the hovel that my sister in law and her husband lived in when I first met them. If this isn't poverty then I don't know what is.

Lack of education and job opportunity reduced them to working a farm just outside Lomsak for a rich Thai/Chinese living in Korat. The day before this picture was taken they were told to get off the land by the new owner who had won the farm in a card game. Thai Rak Thai? Bulldust! My wife and I purchased a good sized farm nearby and built a bricks and mortar home with all necessary mod cons for them.

The new owner of the farm now has gambling debts and wants to sell. Through a proxy I have offered to buy at half the going price and this is the only offer that he has received in three months. Please God he accepts so that we can see his face when sis in law et al move in.

[JR Texas]

This is the hovel that my sister in law and her husband lived in when I first met them. If this isn't poverty then I don't know what is.

Lack of education and job opportunity reduced them to working a farm just outside Lomsak for a rich Thai/Chinese living in Korat. The day before this picture was taken they were told to get off the land by the new owner who had won the farm in a card game. Thai Rak Thai? Bulldust! My wife and I purchased a good sized farm nearby and built a bricks and mortar home with all necessary mod cons for them.

The new owner of the farm now has gambling debts and wants to sell. Through a proxy I have offered to buy at half the going price and this is the only offer that he has received in three months. Please God he accepts so that we can see his face when sis in law et al move in.

Around Khon Kaen you see some farmers that are well off in terms of Thai standards.....there are pockets of wealth scattered all around Thailand. It it worth remembering that a lot of the material wealth that is visible is the result of bank loans, many of which will never be paid back.......growing numbers of people are falling into debt in Thailand.

The vast majority of Thais are anything but wealthy. Only a tiny fraction of the population is wealthy (less than 1%). Poverty is much worse than depicted in the mainstream mass media......the reason is that the govt. defines poverty as making less than 900 baht per month (not sure about the accuracy of this today as this figure comes UN data a few years back). So, you make 901 baht and you are not impoverished in Thailand. Give me a break!

[jts-khorat]

don't mistake debt slavery for true wealth, i doubt that most of those new pick-up trucks are paid off. the number of NPLs on trucks/autos/motorcycles are climbing

That would be exactly my point; why would you put yourself in debt all over your ears to be able to race around in a shiny new car that has absolutely no possible positive impact on your livelihood as farm equipment or sending your kids to school would certainly do.

What is the face gained if everybody in your village knows anyway that you have to sleep on the naked concrete floor to have the money to pay off the car (as I know a good number of Thais are doing).

I know that I myself lack a lot of financial discipline, but so far the rule of the day was: if I cannot afford it in cash I will have to wait until I can.

It IS really simple (and you would not need to go to school to learn that, this was what my grandmother put into me at minor age).

[bina]

yes there is poverty in thailand and i dont see too many farangs running to be poverty stricken unless they have back up money to play poor with.

i am poor. i have no money. i am housed and have access to good education and medical services for me and my kids as long as i stay on kibbutz. if anon and i were to move back to thailand, or leave the kibbutz, we would fall in to the category of very very poor. we have no land, no savings in the bank, no insurance coverage, no job prospects.

one of the reasons we continue to stay in the limbo we are now in is to put off moving to thailand (until the youngest goes to the army) because we would be dirt poor. we have no money for medical emergencies (his cousin dies two weeks ago due to cancer and no money to pay for treatment apart from pain killers), no house apart from his parents wooden shack, no transportation to get to any kind of job, no computer and internet for me so i can learn about anything neccesary or use resources like mednet or other sites, or stay in contact with you all, and learn all the new rules about visas etc. we have no money for visas, no money to invest in anything and basically would be living hand to mouth. fortunately, we both can subsistance farm so we wouldnt starve to death. i will have no pension. we will have to live on the baht that anon would make as a farmer or general labourer.

even now we live only with absolute basics and i worry that we now have to buy shoes for my youngest as school starts next week. we dont travel. we dont go out to eat.

in thailand our situation would be worse. as my parents put it, we would be joining the ranks of the infinite poor, only for me it would be by choice, for anon, that is what he was born into.

to quote dolly parton: we were poor but we had lovin' -- well, dont romantize being poor. i'm rather sick of it. living simply cause u choose to is different than living simply cause u have to, with no choice. and most thai farmers dont have much choice. just ask all the thai migrants i see here .

bina

[meemiathai]

You might be poor in money terms, bina. But you are very rich in some ways. I don't know how to say it.

Money can't buy attractiveness. And you are one very attractive soul! Best wishes!

[Andrew Hicks]

I think anything you can do no matter how small you help the farmers makes you a better person . i try what i can anyway. how ever small

With many of the kids at our village school at below the recommended body weight, I'm running a plan with a Japanese contact to provide food at lunchtime for the whole school. We are also providing books and uniforms.

We hope to adopt the school in the long term if funds can be raised and this way directly help the children and lessen the burden for their families.

Yes, edcation gives some hope for the future and good nutrition and morale are important. I hope the idea could take off for other schools too.

[jts-khorat]

well, dont romantize being poor. i'm rather sick of it. living simply cause u choose to is different than living simply cause u have to, with no choice. and most thai farmers dont have much choice.

I follow your posts for a long time in the farming forum, so I do know that you are really living your life very much by choice. And I respect you for that very much.

Nobody would wish to romaticize poverty, self-chosen or not.

But it is not simply not true that Thai farmers have no choice. Going from basically nothing to just a little bit is really not that big a step, even in Thailand, even in Isaan. It takes a lot of effort and determination. And squandering years of effort away can be done in a mere moment.

And maybe staying a substistence farmer is not part of the solution. The migrant workers you cite are a way; Patpong another (albeit a rather sad one). A factory in Bangkok an obvious way -- I was rather surprised to hear that a person applying himself and working hard shifts can get a salary quite comparable to a university graduate in office work; so even education is not a must.

Another way, maybe the most difficult because it has no obvious short-time gain, would be to sit down while your friends are doing siesta and learn; anything, really, that brings you forward, preferrably languages. Even in Isaan, books are not that difficult to get and they are not priced that outrageously to give you a modest knowledge base (another discussion altogether, but somebody learnign a language from a book all by himself might be better off than learning it by rote in a Thai school from a teacher who does not know the language himself).

I know Thai people who are extremely proud to have made their way with their own hands, from absolutely nothing, never taking a single Satang. Fun is not a word very much in this equation and the step from poor to rich is a large one even with all the determination. But this is not what we are discussing here, we discussing really if the poorest of the Isaan farmers are that poor by fate or -- really, in the end -- by choosing the lifestyle they are living.

I would say, many are choosing (not consciously maybe) the lifestyle by the decisions they make.

[Maigo6]

I would say, many are choosing (not consciously maybe) the lifestyle by the decisions they make.

That must be one of the most idiotic posts I have seen on Thai Visa in 4 years, including my own idiotic posts.

[JohnnyThai]

i cant believe there are actually people in this thread arguing that Isaan farmers aren't poor because they have food to eat.

[JohnnyThai]

I think anything you can do no matter how small you help the farmers makes you a better person . i try what i can anyway. how ever small

With many of the kids at our village school at below the recommended body weight, I'm running a plan with a Japanese contact to provide food at lunchtime for the whole school. We are also providing books and uniforms.

We hope to adopt the school in the long term if funds can be raised and this way directly help the children and lessen the burden for their families.

Yes, edcation gives some hope for the future and good nutrition and morale are important. I hope the idea could take off for other schools too.

please let me know how this goes, how much you collect, how much is needed, etc.

[Neeranam]

I would say, many are choosing (not consciously maybe) the lifestyle by the decisions they make.

That must be one of the most idiotic posts I have seen on Thai Visa in 4 years, including my own idiotic posts.

Agreed.

[tracer5050]

there are poor people all over the world , Issan is a poor part of the world as well as Thailand , Think the Thai govnerment could do more ?

[LongThaimer]

well, dont romantize being poor. i'm rather sick of it. living simply cause u choose to is different than living simply cause u have to, with no choice. and most thai farmers dont have much choice.

I follow your posts for a long time in the farming forum, so I do know that you are really living your life very much by choice. And I respect you for that very much.

Nobody would wish to romaticize poverty, self-chosen or not.

But it is not simply not true that Thai farmers have no choice. Going from basically nothing to just a little bit is really not that big a step, even in Thailand, even in Isaan. It takes a lot of effort and determination. And squandering years of effort away can be done in a mere moment.

And maybe staying a substistence farmer is not part of the solution. The migrant workers you cite are a way; Patpong another (albeit a rather sad one). A factory in Bangkok an obvious way -- I was rather surprised to hear that a person applying himself and working hard shifts can get a salary quite comparable to a university graduate in office work; so even education is not a must.

Another way, maybe the most difficult because it has no obvious short-time gain, would be to sit down while your friends are doing siesta and learn; anything, really, that brings you forward, preferrably languages. Even in Isaan, books are not that difficult to get and they are not priced that outrageously to give you a modest knowledge base (another discussion altogether, but somebody learnign a language from a book all by himself might be better off than learning it by rote in a Thai school from a teacher who does not know the language himself).

I know Thai people who are extremely proud to have made their way with their own hands, from absolutely nothing, never taking a single Satang. Fun is not a word very much in this equation and the step from poor to rich is a large one even with all the determination. But this is not what we are discussing here, we discussing really if the poorest of the Isaan farmers are that poor by fate or -- really, in the end -- by choosing the lifestyle they are living.

I would say, many are choosing (not consciously maybe) the lifestyle by the decisions they make.

I hope you are not on drugs !!!!!!!!!!

[somtaamgaiyang]

well, dont romantize being poor. i'm rather sick of it. living simply cause u choose to is different than living simply cause u have to, with no choice. and most thai farmers dont have much choice.

I follow your posts for a long time in the farming forum, so I do know that you are really living your life very much by choice. And I respect you for that very much.

Nobody would wish to romaticize poverty, self-chosen or not.

But it is not simply not true that Thai farmers have no choice. Going from basically nothing to just a little bit is really not that big a step, even in Thailand, even in Isaan. It takes a lot of effort and determination. And squandering years of effort away can be done in a mere moment.

And maybe staying a substistence farmer is not part of the solution. The migrant workers you cite are a way; Patpong another (albeit a rather sad one). A factory in Bangkok an obvious way -- I was rather surprised to hear that a person applying himself and working hard shifts can get a salary quite comparable to a university graduate in office work; so even education is not a must.

Another way, maybe the most difficult because it has no obvious short-time gain, would be to sit down while your friends are doing siesta and learn; anything, really, that brings you forward, preferrably languages. Even in Isaan, books are not that difficult to get and they are not priced that outrageously to give you a modest knowledge base (another discussion altogether, but somebody learnign a language from a book all by himself might be better off than learning it by rote in a Thai school from a teacher who does not know the language himself).

I know Thai people who are extremely proud to have made their way with their own hands, from absolutely nothing, never taking a single Satang. Fun is not a word very much in this equation and the step from poor to rich is a large one even with all the determination. But this is not what we are discussing here, we discussing really if the poorest of the Isaan farmers are that poor by fate or -- really, in the end -- by choosing the lifestyle they are living.

I would say, many are choosing (not consciously maybe) the lifestyle by the decisions they make.

Well since we live in such a meritorious and class free society, it would be interesting to know how many students from Kalasin, Roi-et, Mukdahan, (the list is endless) have entered Chulalongkorn or Thammasat this year. Since Isaan has the highest population it would be purely logical to assume that it should be about 40% shouldn't it! Quality of and access to quality education in the rural areas in Thailand is very poor

Add that to the idea that moving up in class in society is a virtual impossiblity and there you have it, an under educated farming workforce to produce rice for the rest of the country which is slowly dwindling as people move to the city to be factory and construction labour.

[Heng]

But it is not simply not true that Thai farmers have no choice. Going from basically nothing to just a little bit is really not that big a step, even in Thailand, even in Isaan. It takes a lot of effort and determination. And squandering years of effort away can be done in a mere moment.

Well said. Not to mention a good majority of the well to do nowadays (like in many countries) were poor themselves just a few generations ago. I think for many, it's just too painful a pill to swallow that they and their families may have in fact 'squanded' years and perhaps decades of effort. Hence, 'it must be the system that is set against me' (which is not the same as an unfair system... which no one is saying it isn't) and most likely 'someone must be keeping me down.' It's the same kind of self defeatist attitude that plagues the poor worldwide.

[Payboy]

Going from basically nothing to just a little bit is really not that big a step, even in Thailand, even in Isaan.

i don't think so..

for a person who already has 10000 baht to earn 100 baht is relatively easy...

...but for a person who has only 100 baht it is not so easy to earn another 100 baht

Edited September 1, 2007 by Payboy

[Heng]

That's the problem with a lot of folks. They believe that moving on up has to be "easy." Similar to those college grad surveys (before these kids enter the workforce) where so many believe -without any real basis other than hope- they will be multimillionaires before 30. Reality is a little harder, but by no means impossible.

[LongThaimer]

But it is not simply not true that Thai farmers have no choice. Going from basically nothing to just a little bit is really not that big a step, even in Thailand, even in Isaan. It takes a lot of effort and determination. And squandering years of effort away can be done in a mere moment.

Well said. Not to mention a good majority of the well to do nowadays (like in many countries) were poor themselves just a few generations ago. I think for many, it's just too painful a pill to swallow that they and their families may have in fact 'squanded' years and perhaps decades of effort. Hence, 'it must be the system that is set against me' (which is not the same as an unfair system... which no one is saying it isn't) and most likely 'someone must be keeping me down.' It's the same kind of self defeatist attitude that plagues the poor worldwide.

Poverty alleviation is much more complex than teaching people to be SENSIBLE . Poor people also have the right to improve conditions of their lives, some may also bear the same consumerist tendencies as the wealthier people, such is human nature. BUT lack of FORESIGHT is not the main reason why they are poor.

Thailand's free market economy has been fairly successful over the decades raising the standard of living for millions of people. Unfairness is not the issue here either, the real question is, did the free enterprise actually TRUELY helped the POOR in the long run ?????

[LongThaimer]

That's the problem with a lot of folks. They believe that moving on up has to be "easy." Similar to those college grad surveys (before these kids enter the workforce) where so many believe -without any real basis other than hope- they will be multimillionaires before 30. Reality is a little harder, but by no means impossible.

Impossible ????

The problem with many folks is that they think they can walk on water !!!!!

[Heng]

But it is not simply not true that Thai farmers have no choice. Going from basically nothing to just a little bit is really not that big a step, even in Thailand, even in Isaan. It takes a lot of effort and determination. And squandering years of effort away can be done in a mere moment.

Well said. Not to mention a good majority of the well to do nowadays (like in many countries) were poor themselves just a few generations ago. I think for many, it's just too painful a pill to swallow that they and their families may have in fact 'squanded' years and perhaps decades of effort. Hence, 'it must be the system that is set against me' (which is not the same as an unfair system... which no one is saying it isn't) and most likely 'someone must be keeping me down.' It's the same kind of self defeatist attitude that plagues the poor worldwide.

Poverty alleviation is much more complex than teaching people to be SENSIBLE . Poor people also have the right to improve conditions of their lives, some may also bear the same consumerist tendencies as the wealthier people, such is human nature. BUT lack of FORESIGHT is not the main reason why they are poor.

It's certainly not the answer for all of the poor, but for a good number, yes, sensibility and foresight, especially over generations is all it takes for folks to leave the poor ranks.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Heng

[Maigo6]

It's certainly not the answer for all of the poor, but for a good number, yes, sensibility and foresight, especially over generations is all it takes for folks to leave the poor ranks.

Said by a self made man who had to fight his way out of poverty against all the odds.

[meemiathai]

I would say, many are choosing (not consciously maybe) the lifestyle by the decisions they make.

That must be one of the most idiotic posts I have seen on Thai Visa in 4 years, including my own idiotic posts.

I disagree. He is not entirely wrong.

I do agree with him but it is like saying you can choose to walk from BKK to Pattaya but you are just choosing(not consciously maybe) to take a bus.

[tracer5050]

I talk to many people here in the village, afterthey get to know you. They will tell you they are poor . at least some of them know it , But make the best of where thay are. work hard to feed the family.