Are Isaan Farmers 'poor'?

[Maigo6]

My brother in law is a 22-year old Rachabat student in Udon Thani. He lives in a house with thatched roof and hand-plastered walls. Has never held a job in his life. Gov pays his tuition. Completely dependant on his sister (my wife) if anything goes wrong. When I was his age, I was working abroad (full-time) going to uni (part-time) and saving for a rainy day. Very difficult for me to feel sorry.

Lazy, ignorant, unambitious.

Ummmm, he's a Student at Rajabhat in Udon Thani which means he is trying to get an education, it may give just the slightest possibility of getting a job that pays more than 3000 Baht per Month....................

Then you say he has never had a Job and he is Lazy, Ignorant and Unambitious.

I think you need to look at yourself a little more and to the reasons why you have such hostility against another member of your Family.

Unbelievable.........

[jts-khorat]

What's kids playing games got to do with POVERTY, don't kids play games where you from????

Imagine, if you NUKE Colombia you got rid of all the world's cocaine problems, RIGHT ???????

Like I said in my prevoius post, POVERTY ALLEVIATION is an complex issue involving socio-economic considerations.

It's SAD some people refused to see even the very basic ones......

Actually, what you really said was that kids sitting all day in the now --suddenly not existing -- game parlours is okay because they are kids and that nuking Colombia somehow will alleviate the problems of the Isaan farmers.

Pretty drastic and I am still trying to get your point.

So, besides poverty alleviation being a "complex issue involving socio-economic considerations", what exactly would be now your ideas of how those farmers could better themselves. I am really interested to hear as you have been quite shush about it...

[jts-khorat]

When I moved into my village they were already drinking moonshine, so I have not furnished there habit:

My wife and I built a new kitchen at our local school for the 200 kids (Is this putting whisky in there mouth?) Sometimes we take the ice cream man to the school and give the kids a treat is this wrong as well ?

No, helping out is never wrong. Projects helping children and their education are the best projects one can create, eg Andrew Hicks as well.

But are you not defeating your own argument here? Correct me if I am wrong, but why has the village as a community -- how many, 100-150 people? -- not managed to get something simple like a school kitchen going if the farmers would see the need for education for their kids instead of their 'unfostered' habits?

So would that not really mean that they rather drink while having their children malnourished and uneducated? Sounds really a lot like exactly what I am saying in this thread from my first post on.

[Maigo6]

So would that not really mean that they rather drink while having their children malnourished and uneducated? Sounds really a lot like exactly what I am saying in this thread from my first post on.

jts, I do understand what you are trying to say, even if you do come across as a westerner that has settled in a poor country through choice, then blame the poor of that country for being poor.

I'm quite sure that the majority of Thai people would have loved the choices that you had growing up in a western country.

Some of the things you write are on the ball, but other things are total hogwash.

I'm still up for that meeting in Isaan to find all those Villages with internet cafes, are you ?

[jts-khorat]

jts, I do understand what you are trying to say, even if you do come across as a westerner that has settled in a poor country through choice, then blame the poor of that country for being poor.

I'm quite sure that the majority of Thai people would have loved the choices that you had growing up in a western country.

Ah, sounds much more reasonable than pictures of straight jackets and personal attacks...

Yes, I also would believe that the Isaanites would have chosen to be born rather more privileged and in a western country. So do I. I do not romanticize poorness and I do think I made that clear.

I definitely do not blame them for being poor. But a lot of them really have themselves to blame if they personally and as a community stay poor (I guess this argument of mine was #really# what you were going up against).

To just shout it out one more time. I am not discussing here if they are 'happy' or not while poor.

I personally cannot believe that somebody can stay content if he constantly craves things he cannot afford; so I chose to believe that in reality they are quite unhappy and this becomes quite clear by just listening to them for not such a long time.

I DO strongly resist the argument that they have to stay poor by fate, that they can do nothing about it by themselves (without western help or the Thai government or other 'higher' forces; this is pure neo-colonialism).

I rather trust strongly that they CAN help themselves, that some of them do (by hard work, foregoing fun and making planned decisions); I know plenty of them.

I also DO believe that many ways of helping themselves are within their grasp, affordably with their small financial means, as they are enabled enough to get them; eg being able to read and write (not a point anybody seems to denounce at all).

That helping oneself is easy I have never said, but it becomes much easier with the right role models.

Regarding the internet cafes; in the end I can speak only from my own personal experience (what seemingly makes this thread all about me -- better: 'me, me, me' -- but then again I guess that nearly everybody in this forum posts mainly their personal experiences, so far I have heard pretty few statistics quoted).

I got the impression visiting the family of my girlfriend that there were a lot of internet cafes, maybe not in every tiny hovel but well within motorcycle range, eg every larger market.

This is by my definition well within affordable and reachable range for just about anybody and if their kids can ride there on a bike to play, well...

[toptuan]

4 members family in Thai - 160B. If they can find work. They can, about 3 months a year. The rest - idling, alcohol, boredom

That's all I see when I go there. That's the only option they offer to me - Lao Khao 6am and all day long.

Why do they think so low of me?

Just in February this year I clocked up 350 hours of work in Tokyo. Would they care?

Would they <deleted>! They don't do that much work over a year or two altogether.

Look at the kids...the only thing they have to play with is this bottle of lao khao their parents had downed 5am.

Then, the parents continue. Day in, day out. Until some accidental work drags them away - to get the money for the refill and to pay their alcohol debts (if they can).

Pretty broad paint brush, there, my friend. Don't paint all of Isaan with the brush you dipped into this sad family--addicted to alcohol, laziness, and boredom.

In the last five farmer families I visited over three years, the farmer-dads/husbands were up before dawn, and worked until dusk. In fact, the last farmer I visited came home two hours AFTER dusk, about 8pm, for a dinner that he could hardly put to his mouth for sheer exhaustion. His kids told me that he does this all week long. Mom spent all day long preparing for meals, and cleaning up after meals. Kids helped the parents between sessions of homework. And they weren't just putting on a show for the visiting farang. It seemed the whole village was this industrious. Quite a different picture, but hopefully one that balances out your very sorry connections in Isaan.

[esbobes]

it seems like most farang in this thread want to paint the isaan farmers as not being poor because they resent having to give them money or some other unfortunate embarrassing reason involving the business deal they call a relationship. ah, i cant believe what people have said in this thread. pity and shame on you.

I have proof from many reports that Issan farmers drink because Farangs send them money and they just have extra money.

Please don't give money to Issan farmers you are the reason they drink.

If you give them objects they will sell it.

Farangs are hurting Issan farmers.

Please stop being so nice.

it seems like most farang in this thread want to paint the isaan farmers as not being poor because they resent having to give them money or some other unfortunate embarrassing reason involving the business deal they call a relationship. ah, i cant believe what people have said in this thread. pity and shame on you.

People like you are killing the Issan farmers. Please wake up and wise up.

I think yo are a good man but you are doing harm, shame on you

When I moved into my village they were already drinking moonshine, so I have not furnished there habit:

My wife and I built a new kitchen at our local school for the 200 kids (Is this putting whisky in there mouth?) Sometimes we take the ice cream man to the school and give the kids a treat is this wrong as well ?If I give someone work to do I cannot stipulate dont use the money for whisky, its up to them, in no way do I try to change or give the people in my village false hope. if we have a party everyone gets free food and and the kids get treats this is a real treat for them and good fun for all.

Now they have more money for moonshine.As they don't have to buy food for the childrenm.

Keep on feeding them they will have more children

My familiy sell moonshine what don't you understand

[think_too_mut]

Pretty broad paint brush, there, my friend. Don't paint all of Isaan with the brush you dipped into this sad family--addicted to alcohol, laziness, and boredom.

In the last five farmer families I visited over three years, the farmer-dads/husbands were up before dawn, and worked until dusk. In fact, the last farmer I visited came home two hours AFTER dusk, about 8pm, for a dinner that he could hardly put to his mouth for sheer exhaustion. His kids told me that he does this all week long. Mom spent all day long preparing for meals, and cleaning up after meals. Kids helped the parents between sessions of homework. And they weren't just putting on a show for the visiting farang. It seemed the whole village was this industrious. Quite a different picture, but hopefully one that balances out your very sorry connections in Isaan.

I laughed my head off.

The post above is exactly the coreography Isaan farmers stage for their pray. Or whatever their daughters have dragged in. Their success is evident - just look at the quoted post.

[Heng]

They get the whole village involved?

[Maigo6]

The post above is exactly the coreography Isaan farmers stage for their pray. Or whatever their daughters have dragged in. Their success is evident - just look at the quoted post.

So you reckon that people in Isaan rise at 6am only when a Farang is about?

You reckon they act industrious just because a Farang is about ?

Jeez TMT, you've been in Tokyo too long, the strain is showing, you need a few weeks on the Farm to chill out.

[meemiathai]

But a lot of them really have themselves to blame if they personally and as a community stay poor (I guess this argument of mine was #really# what you were going up against).

Not saying you are wrong.

But maybe also a lot of them have tried very very hard like my sister in law but still cannot get their way out of poverty.

People talk about studying hard. Not everyone is borned to be capable doing well in studies. So what chances does one get if one is not good at studies but willing to work hard in richer places comparing to poorer places like maybe Isaan? I really can't think of a way to suggest to my sister in law. She works in a factory and goes to work at 8am and finishes at 10pm and gets about 6000baht a month. Any suggestions how to get rich?

[meemiathai]

They get the whole village involved?

Yes thais always go that far just to prey on one single farang!

The whole village putting on a show! Where can you find so many cheap actors? Only in Thailand!

[meemiathai]

The post above is exactly the coreography Isaan farmers stage for their pray. Or whatever their daughters have dragged in. Their success is evident - just look at the quoted post.

So you reckon that people in Isaan rise at 6am only when a Farang is about?

You reckon they act industrious just because a Farang is about ?

Jeez TMT, you've been in Tokyo too long, the strain is showing, you need a few weeks on the Farm to chill out.

Wow a few weeks! They are going to get really tired acting such a long time!

That must be better than hollywood!

[tracer5050]

[roietjimmy]

Ladies....and gentlemen..... Tonight we are proud to present the Thrilla from Isaan!! In the blue corner wearing the cowboy hat and snear, hailing from Phu Kradung, Mai....go.....6. In the red corner all the way from Tokyo, just coming off his victory against three opponents at the same time, I give you Think to....mut!! Our referee is the ever logical, jts korat from Phuket. Our judges for tonights event are Heng and Meemaithai.

[jts-khorat]

Any suggestions how to get rich?

Find a guy like you. Seriously, her only way to get #rich#. But why this lack of being modest in her wishes?

Between being not poor and rich is a long stretch of road.

Learning hard might get her a salary double hers, what will make her live not uncomfortable by Thai standards. Being willing to work as a worker off-province or a migrant worker off-country maybe a small multiple (those jobs are only temporary and she needs some money to invest into an agency, with risk).

Again, one might notice, not much mentioning of farming here.

And to the notion, not everybody is born to be a good learner. True, so she will have to study #harder# (if there is not something clinically wrong with her). Sorry if this sounds elitist, but putting in more effort than anybody else is an option she definitely has.

[meemiathai]

Ladies....and gentlemen..... Tonight we are proud to present the Thrilla from Isaan!! In the blue corner wearing the cowboy hat and snear, hailing from Phu Kradung, Mai....go.....6. In the red corner all the way from Tokyo, just coming off his victory against three opponents at the same time, I give you Think to....mut!! Our referee is the ever logical, jts korat from Phuket. Our judges for tonights event are Heng and Meemaithai.

[meemiathai]

Any suggestions how to get rich?

Find a guy like you. Seriously, her only way to get #rich#. But why this lack of being modest in her wishes?

Between being not poor and rich is a long stretch of road.

Learning hard might get her a salary double hers, what will make her live not uncomfortable by Thai standards. Being willing to work as a worker off-province or a migrant worker off-country maybe a small multiple (those jobs are only temporary and she needs some money to invest into an agency, with risk).

Again, one might notice, not much mentioning of farming here.

And to the notion, not everybody is born to be a good learner. True, so she will have to study #harder# (if there is not something clinically wrong with her). Sorry if this sounds elitist, but putting in more effort than anybody else is an option she definitely has.

I must add. She never complains. She never moans like I do how unfair this society is. I don't get the feeling that she really really wants to be rich, but I do think she might have wished she had more money when her new born baby got ill and died probably due to the lack of money to get appropriate treatment a few years ago. I do think she wants to earn more money as well to provide for his 15 yrs old son. I am glad I just heard from my wife that my sister in law's son said what he wants for his birthday present a few days later is just a football magazine costing 20 something bahts. Can I not love them?

[meemiathai]

I'm a bit worried, do you guys think they would be putting on a show only? We have been married only for 8 years.

[coldcrush]

This is an answer to this question from an Isaan Farmer "Poor or not poor they always make the farm". Upto you all what you take from that!

TIT

[Andrew Hicks]

When I moved into my village they were already drinking moonshine, so I have not furnished there habit:

My wife and I built a new kitchen at our local school for the 200 kids (Is this putting whisky in there mouth?) Sometimes we take the ice cream man to the school and give the kids a treat is this wrong as well ?

No, helping out is never wrong. Projects helping children and their education are the best projects one can create, eg Andrew Hicks as well.

But are you not defeating your own argument here? Correct me if I am wrong, but why has the village as a community -- how many, 100-150 people? -- not managed to get something simple like a school kitchen going if the farmers would see the need for education for their kids instead of their 'unfostered' habits?

So would that not really mean that they rather drink while having their children malnourished and uneducated? Sounds really a lot like exactly what I am saying in this thread from my first post on.

This is to say thanks for all the positive comments on this thread and on the 'Adopt a Village School' project that I am running in my village in Surin. Thanks for your interest and donations... we'll be needing more when the lunchtime feeding programme begins next term. With almost half the kids underweight and some perhaps malnourished, it'll be interesting to see what impact we can have over time.

This particular school already has a kitchen and the teachers, who have a real commitment to the children, are active in fund raising. We gave a television and were dragged up onto the school to receive a cerificate along with a host of ordinary farmers who'd given a few hundred baht. It's this 'can-do' attitude that made me really want to help them further.

Call it 'poverty' or not, the kids in the school have immediate needs and I want to do something about it. Okay so it's irritating to see some of the feckless drunks around the place who aren't doing anything for the future of their families, but that's not the kids' fault.

The problems in the countryside are immense and it's difficult to help but I think this is the best way. All support is much appreciated!

Andrew

[frikkiedeboer]

I live in a village far out in the rice fields of Surin and in my view many of my neighbours can be called poor. I've just got back from southern Laos and they are relatively poorer there, but I still think there is rural poverty throughout Thailand.

Do readers agree with this and more particularly what do they think of those whose view is that there is no poverty here?

I've come across a number of farang recently who point to the obvious signs of growing wealth and then conclude that there is no poverty. This opinion is recurrent and insistent and I am curious to know why.

Any thoughts?

there is no doubt that many thai farmers in isaan are poor. any sucessful farmer will tell you that farming is a hard work,hands on, full-time, year-round job. no farmer will ever get rich lying about in an hammock drinking lao-khaow. unfortunately nobody seems to have told many isaan farmers this, nor that education is the key to upliftment, so they resist any form of education,mostly taking the kids out of school after a four year stint, rape the land by insisting on using out-dated, unsustainable traditional farming methods, and spend at least half the year lazing about. to their credit, most do not bemoan their lot, and it seems that they have chosen this lifestyle after considering the alternative. in my village, there is work every day for anybody who wants it. there is an area where labourers congregate to be picked up for work on the lands, and you will seldom see the same face in the queue two days in a row. most work a day or two, then it is back to the hammock. the (very good) free (almost) education at the local high school is mostly not taken advantage of, and pupils can be seen lazing about all day outside the well-equiped classrooms. teachers told me they are powerless to get these kids into the classrooms because the parents react badly on hearing that a teacher disciplined their children,so they leave them be and concentrate on teaching the few who are actually interested in bettering themselves.(and these few will be the sucessful ones) i know i am generalising and apologise to any thai not fitting the profile, but it is hard to ignore something that is so glaringly obvious to anybody having spent a few years in isaan and having bothered to get involved in the local community.

i have spent years trying to understand the mindset, the stubbornness and the resistance to change and education, and can come to only one conclusion: that they choose this for themselves, and are happy with their lot. that they know their lives will change forever and their traditions and beliefs will die out if they accept, or succumb to western- type education (or educated eastern, for that matter)

sufficiency economy,perhaps...?

Edited September 6, 2007 by frikkiedeboer

[think_too_mut]

They get the whole village involved?

I watched that happening from the porch of "my house" when a girl from a nearby house brought her farang into the village.

The hammock at their porch had never been idle, day or night, with family members taking turns in it.

When the farang came, they went as busy as bees.

5am off to cotton fields, labouring until dark for 120baht, children for 70 baht, all day. They even took the farang one day, he was so proud that he "went native and experienced Thai village life first hand".

All the activity died out when he was gone. Hammock importance was quickly restored.

It was effective and the farang chipped in. Soon, their house got upgraded, a pickup truck (second hand but unsure if the money was enough for a new one but gambled or boozed away) turned up, they opened a shop in the house...now they sit all day long in front of it, conduct their social life and charge for whatever people buy from the shop. Once they told me to put the money into "cash box" and take out the change myself.

Most of the people in the pic I enclosed 3 pages above are from that shop and the beer crates came from there too.

The same farang was coming 3 times a year, clearing the debth the shop had made - they just give alcohol and things "into the book" and villagers never pay back about 30% of the debth. It was meant to be the profit.

To restock, the shop owners have to "borrow" from the farang.

If they banned the bad customers, who will ever come? Not even those banned if they ever had any money.

And that's pretty much the deal - they all have their "right" to suck farang's blood, the principal family the most, but others feel entitled too.

The goodies that come with the in-house farang are being redistributed through that shop. Poor farang (from Holland) thought he had given them the means to live better. They do live easier and have more than before - but the way it hapens was not exactly the idea our farang had.

Edited September 6, 2007 by think_too_mut

[esbobes]

They get the whole village involved?

I watched that happening from the porch of "my house" when a girl from a nearby house brought her farang into the village.

The hammock at their porch had never been idle, day or night, with family members taking turns in it.

When the farang came, they went as busy as bees.

5am off to cotton fields, labouring until dark for 120baht, children for 70 baht, all day. They even took the farang one day, he was so proud that he "went native and experienced Thai village life first hand".

All the activity died out when he was gone. Hammock importance was quickly restored.

It was effective and the farang chipped in. Soon, their house got upgraded, a pickup truck (second hand but unsure if the money was enough for a new one but gambled or boozed away) turned up, they opened a shop in the house...now they sit all day long in front of it, conduct their social life and charge for whatever people buy from the shop. Once they told me to put the money into "cash box" and take out the change myself.

Most of the people in the pic I enclosed 3 pages above are from that shop and the beer crates came from there too.

The same farang was coming 3 times a year, clearing the debth the shop had made - they just give alcohol and things "into the book" and villagers never pay back about 30% of the debth. It was meant to be the profit.

To restock, the shop owners have to "borrow" from the farang.

If they banned the bad customers, who will ever come? Not even those banned if they ever had any money.

And that's pretty much the deal - they all have their "right" to suck farang's blood, the principal family the most, but others feel entitled too.

The goodies that come with the in-house farang are being redistributed through that shop. Poor farang (from Holland) thought he had given them the means to live better. They do live easier and have more than before - but the way it hapens was not exactly the idea our farang had.

You forget the Farang feels good he thinks he helps he thinks the family loves him. In Holland nobody loves him . So he gains even more then the family in the mean time he is killing the family.

The Farang is doing harm and should be bar from Thailand.

People like you should beat the **** out of the fool.

Edited September 6, 2007 by esbobes

[esbobes]

Maybe if needed

Farangs can send me money and I will give it to real poor people.

This way you will known the poor will really get it.

Glad to help That's what life about.

[BADBRAD]

They get the whole village involved?

I watched that happening from the porch of "my house" when a girl from a nearby house brought her farang into the village.

The hammock at their porch had never been idle, day or night, with family members taking turns in it.

When the farang came, they went as busy as bees.

5am off to cotton fields, labouring until dark for 120baht, children for 70 baht, all day. They even took the farang one day, he was so proud that he "went native and experienced Thai village life first hand".

All the activity died out when he was gone. Hammock importance was quickly restored.

It was effective and the farang chipped in. Soon, their house got upgraded, a pickup truck (second hand but unsure if the money was enough for a new one but gambled or boozed away) turned up, they opened a shop in the house...now they sit all day long in front of it, conduct their social life and charge for whatever people buy from the shop. Once they told me to put the money into "cash box" and take out the change myself.

Most of the people in the pic I enclosed 3 pages above are from that shop and the beer crates came from there too.

The same farang was coming 3 times a year, clearing the debth the shop had made - they just give alcohol and things "into the book" and villagers never pay back about 30% of the debth. It was meant to be the profit.

To restock, the shop owners have to "borrow" from the farang.

If they banned the bad customers, who will ever come? Not even those banned if they ever had any money.

And that's pretty much the deal - they all have their "right" to suck farang's blood, the principal family the most, but others feel entitled too.

The goodies that come with the in-house farang are being redistributed through that shop. Poor farang (from Holland) thought he had given them the means to live better. They do live easier and have more than before - but the way it hapens was not exactly the idea our farang had.

You forget the Farang feels good he thinks he helps he thinks the family loves him. In Holland nobody loves him . So he gains even more then the family in the mean time he is killing the family.

The Farang is doing harm and should be bar from Thailand.

People like you should beat the **** out of the fool.

How do you know that "in Holland nobody loves him?" And how is he "killing the family?" It seems he is helping the family, and if it makes him feel good than great. Sounds like the family is definately not making the most of an oppurtunity, but how is the farang doing harm?

[kat]

By encouraging and rewarding dependence, corruption, and laziness.

* When progress is given to you rapidly with no standards for improvement or credibility, you don't gain the skill or knowledge that comes from striving and working your way up. You have simply been handed something.

Edited September 7, 2007 by kat

[BADBRAD]

I take your point and agree with you that this is certainly not teaching anyone how to better themselves. At the same time if the guy chooses to spend his money in this way and it improves the families life (even if only temporarily), is it such a bad thing?

[kat]

hmmm, I think to say it is a bad thing is a bit too simplistic, or black and white.

Sometimes I think it is a naive thing, a self-motivated thing, a destructive thing, and yes, sometimes a good thing.

But the best is when you can help people help themselves - real development. Handouts let the government off the hook because they never have to deal with the huge wealth and development gaps in the country, and if people are getting handouts, they have no reason to demand a better chance.

Edited September 7, 2007 by kat

[BADBRAD]

I agree with everything in your last post 100% Kat. I think sometimes we see what is obviously a problem and want to help in someway (maybe naively, maybe self-motivated) so we try to cure the symptom and not the disease. Sometimes I think it is also beyond an individuals power to combat the true cause of the problem and so they do what they can in the immediate. Also you can only help people in a way they want to be helped. Few poor people will refuse money.