Not Gay Marriage Exactly But....

[foolforlove]

in thail culture, i have heard sometimes that two guys get some sort of commitment ceremony done. perhaps even at the local wat.

what is this called?

and how is it viewed in thai culture? just two guys who are friends doing this or what?

any info would be great...

[dukkha]

My partner and I had committmet ceremony at Anantisila Resort in Hua Hin on my 60th birthday.

It was held in the Lobby of the Hotel in view of all and sundry..we wore the traditional garlands and

his dad caught a bus all the way from Roi Et to represent the family, an Australian friend was

MC and it was a joyous occaison. We exchanged rings, mine was 10 baht and his 100 baht, we have

since remedied that somewhat...the entire village regard me as a son in law, they even use the

Isaan word for it when speaking about me in my absence..In fact it meant a lot to my thai

partner and many of the pictures taken now decorate our house in Roi Et, although we live

in Bangkok...there seemed to be no distinction among all the relatives regarding my gender.

I AM family however it is viewed, but not the slightest hint of homophobia even from the

local lads...a contrast to my own country of Australia, but dont get me started on that rant.

The Non Republic Of Homophobia is how I describe my birth country..easy to understand why

I have chosen to live here for almost 8 years I guess...hope this gives you a little insight,

but guess each case is different, after two and half years each day is a joy to be with him. Dukkha

[peekint]

I want to support everything dukkha said. I'm part of Tom's family, community, and temple.

We live in Chiang Mai Province, with a city townhouse and a country farm near Tom's village.

We had a small ceremony at the temple, but the big bash was simultaneous with our housewarming at the farm. Twenty monks, the whole village, lots of food. The Northern Thai traditions are probably a bit different from Central Thai and Isaan - you know, lots of string tying and things - so your mileage may vary.

My suggestion is drop by your local temple with your honey, and chat with the monks there. Unless it is a very strange place in Thailand, you'll find a warm welcome, lots of suggestions, and complete acceptance.

I'm from the USA, and I can't imagine ANYWHERE in the states where Tom and my integration in the local community could be as complete as it is here. In the States, if you're away from the Gay Ghettos of the inner cities, you have to be very careful being "together" in any substantial way for fear of being at best verbally assaulted, or at worst physically beaten (I won't even go into the inter-racial thing). My own parents, family, and friends there are fine - as are most folks who are "first hand" friends of any Gay people. It's the violence encouraged by the religious zealots and people like the toe-tapping anti-homosexual (but pro bathroom sex) senator from Idaho who make life miserable there.

Incidentally, the only time Tom and I have ever been persecuted or teased in Thailand were by a bunch of Aussies at our hotel in Pattaya a couple of years back.

[dukkha]

Peekint, as an Australian it comes as no surprise that it was louts of such ilk.

Ashamed to be Australian on many levels especially the homophobia, glad I am able

to live here without all that nastiness...thanks for your supporting my few words...

I forgot to mention we did go to our local Wat and the Abbot put a colored twine

around both our necks, and yes he certainly knew what we were about....cheers

to both you and Tom and may you have a long and fruitful relationship... Dukkha

[foolforlove]

wow, the aussies are taking quite the wrap in this thread. ;-)

anyway,

i can understand about the hotel in Hua Hin... where i am guessing the ceremony was designed/made-up by yourselves....

but at the Wat.. when you talk to the monks, is there a specific thai word for the ceremony you are asking for?

i guess i am wondering if there is some sort of standard thing "on the books" as far as same-gender ceremonies at thai temples.

i had the impression there might be...so is there?

thanks

[dukkha]

FFL..we just fronted up one day, Sam told him we were together and were given a blessing,

there was nothing formal at all about it, in fact he may have thought we were together on that

day and happened to be visiting the Temple, but Sam did intimate that the Abbot knew the

story regarding Sam and myself and that is why we were given identical twine and put

around our necks, good enough for me...Aussie bashing, we are good at that especially if

there is a poof amongst us...utter disgust for me, recently the gay precinct in Oxford

Street had a series of bashings....it is regarded as somewhat of a national sport in my

country, not to say it does not happen in other Western Countries, Breakback Mountain

attested to that in the 60's..and more recently Matthew Shephard and a list of persons

we will never hear or know of...growing up in Melbourne in 50's was horrific, and times

have changed, but we as homosexual men and wimmin will never be accepted truly,

a lot of lip service to me... Dukkha

[peekint]

There is no buddhist "wedding" for gay couples - or straight ones, either. Buddhism views marriage as a secular issue (all the more reason why I'm disappointed that Thailand hasn't become one of the leaders in the world for Gay marriage - there should be no religious objections). That's not to say that a number of pseudo-religious rites and ceremonies haven't developed, but they are quite regional, usually based on a combination of Brahman Buddhism and Animism (especially in the North and Isaan).

You don't need to have the "right words" and say "I want that". Pretend you're in Beijing at a Chinese restaurant where the whole menu is in Chinese. How would you order?

Frankly, I think it will be even easier than that, if you and your bf just show up at his local temple and chat with the monk.

You haven't mentioned if you speak Thai or not (not a bad idea, if you plan to marry a Thai man!), but you'll enjoy it all more if you do. And, finally, you haven't mentioned how open you and your bf are in your relationship in his home village, with his parents, etc. Believe it or not, there are some "closeted" Thais, though most of them are married and seem to go after younger Thai guys, but the Chinese culture can be very strong here. If your bf is an eldest or only - you may have trouble about the grandkids thing! hahaha.

My husband is an eldest and only son, but it was no problem at all for us.

And, if you are investigating this behind your bf's back (which I suspect you are, since he would know all these things already), just go to a local temple without him and chat with a monk. In Chiang Mai, go to Wat Suan Dok, there are many english speaking monks there. I think there are similar types of temples in BKK where they train monks in English to go work overseas.

Chances are, the monks will be very helpful, and probably even a good friend of Dorothy as well.

[dukkha]

I taught at the Buddhist University at Wat Suan Dok for 4 years and can assure

you that many of my cheekee monkee students were indeed dear friends of

Dorothy, you are showing your age if you know that phrase, American in origin

from decades ago...I like the word 'queer' as it is more inclusive of my straight friends,

both men and wimmin...we see the world the same way although our sexual preference

maybe be different... Dukkha

[FranklyNoMore]

in thail culture, i have heard sometimes that two guys get some sort of commitment ceremony done. perhaps even at the local wat.

what is this called?

I think the term is called b*ll*cks.

Why gays need some kind of ceremony to justify or pledge some kind of commitment to their relationship is beyond me. Why gays want to go down the same route as hetros is beyond me. All you need to do is commit and be honest to yourself.

Having the need to prove this to your partner by some sort of ceremony is as fake and false as the hetro ceremony. Why? because when one or both of you decide to end the relationship that ceremony will mean as much as it did on the day you had it, nothing.

Instead of advocating gay marriage and going down that route just to get the same benefits and rights as hetros, gays should be fighting to end those benefits that hetro people get when they are married. Ceremonies and pieces of paper to justify your commitment to each other really isnt needed unless of course your very insecure.

[dukkha]

At 59 I was ready to committ and we both were happy to do so, nothing to do insecurity...this is it for me

[dukkha]

Anyone who objects to those who want the piece of paper displays a level of their own insecurity or jealousy or both.

What is the point of critising anyone for their needs/wants or desires...some people dance to forget, others to remember..I know which category I fall into...and for moi it has always been the Tango, cos it takes two only...may the band play on and on..I dont have to justify my making a public committmet to the person I wish to spend my life with..it is a matter between both of us, it aint some simulation of hetero fanfare, and that is the point I am making in my dottage...for those who cannot accept it, not my problemo... Dukkha

[FranklyNoMore]

I think gays and hetros are missing the point about marriage and civil unions.

You dont need a piece of paper to justify your commitment to someone. Honesty is all you need. Honesty to yourself and your partner. Those who need the paper or ceremony need this because of trust issues.

If you marry me this will unequivocally prove your love to me and ease my insecurity issues. It will mean you wont leave me and we will be together forever because you said so in the ceremony.

Marriage is flawed because you can end it anytime you choose. That\'s why its a complete waste of time and such a pretence. It\'s not the truth. It\'s the truth that suits at the time.

Now into my 4th relationship, ive been through insecurity issues. 4 years into my current relationship I certainly dont need a ceremony or piece of paper to make me feel good about my relationship or to prop it up. It will continue or end without either hence my point that marriage is a complete waste of time and isnt the truth.

Thats just how I see it and of course others will see it differently especially those who have had a ceremony and i respect that.

Maybe someone can tell me why they feel the need to have a ceremony or marriage in the first place and what that then brings to their relationship that wasnt there before.

[foolforlove]

i just want to enjoy doing this with my bf. and create an occasion for us to remember in the future.

a piece of paper doesnt help us, really.

but its an occasion to create memories. much like a birthday or new years... i still like to have birthday cake on my birthday, but that doesnt mean i am insecure or whatever..... this will be like a birthday except we can remember this as a special time about our relationship.

[dukkha]

Dont have any piece of paper, never will have, but had a great 60th birthday with

friends who travelled from Australia to celebrate and meet my Partner for the first

time. The few words that were said by a friend to the guests stating that my partner and

I wanted them to know that we were committed to one another was part of the evening.

We have some noice snaps that we occaisonally look at, and I think in our case it

did help in my partner being granted a Visitor's Visa to Awstrayia...they wanted

sufficient evidence that this was not a bogus trip for some guy I had met one night

in some bar... Dukkha