Baht Bus Fare - The Real Story

[Naam]

These days, on the rare occasions I take a Baht bus, I usually give them 20 Baht.

So blame me for pushing up the fares

I will. And so do all the English teachers living in the ghetto and retired individuals suffering from economic down-turn.

shame on him for pushing up prices. he should be tarred an feathered!

by the way... what exactly is a baht bus?

[Jingthing]

Racism

Obviously, but I guess some people just refuse to see things as they really are.

You must have a tough time in Thailand thinking that everyone is racist.

Local businesses trying to extract some extra money from tourists is commonplace in most countries. It's astonishing that you can't see this and continue to harp: Racist! Racism!.

I am not a tourist. I live here. Labeling everyone who has white skin as a tourist is ... racist. Not that I condone fleecing tourists, just addressing your point. Don't attack me personally, prove this isn't racism. I doubt you can.

BTW, I never once said that I think everyone in Thailand is racist. Funny you have to resort to such extreme absurd fantasy charges to defend your point; proves to me you have run out of ammo! I calls em like I sees em, and the baht bus pricing system is a classic example of racism. It is simple really. They see your skin color, they decide to treat you differently based on your skin color and other racial characteristics. Its hard to even imagine a clearer example of racism.

One definition of racism is: racial prejudice or discrimination.

Discrimination means treating people differently based on their race. Riders of baht buses are treated differently based on their race. It is not a race neutral ride.

You could argue that this is an example of benign racism. It isn't lynching or shooting, after all. But it is still racism.

Edited September 9, 2007 by Jingthing

[Naam]

Racism

Obviously, but I guess some people just refuse to see things as they really are.

i see the racism very clear. our housemaid, her husband the gardener and our driver ask every month for money because we are farangs.

do we need more evidence that rascism is rampant in Thailand?

[H2oDunc]

For me it boils down to 5 baht. No matter how you try to wrap it up in the classic " its not the money, its the principal " crap its still 5 baht. To get wound up over 5 baht is really hitting the bottom of the barrel. OK you are not a tourist, but if 10 baht is going to break the bank I suggest its time to leave. I remember getting a bus into town in London. Even to go 1 stop cost 1.50 pounds. To take a tube 1 stop cost 3 pounds. So as much as you try to rap it up as RACIST crap Its just you being TIGHT! Rant over!

[Manchester]

Pattaya People newspaper complaing about the baht buses too.

http://www.pattayapeople.com/default.asp?F...;IdArticle=7401

[Jingthing]

For me it boils down to 5 baht. No matter how you try to wrap it up in the classic " its not the money, its the principal " crap its still 5 baht. To get wound up over 5 baht is really hitting the bottom of the barrel. OK you are not a tourist, but if 10 baht is going to break the bank I suggest its time to leave. I remember getting a bus into town in London. Even to go 1 stop cost 1.50 pounds. To take a tube 1 stop cost 3 pounds. So as much as you try to rap it up as RACIST crap Its just you being TIGHT! Rant over!

Who said I was wound up? I have said before I pay the race based fare as insurance against violent beatings. Who said I can't afford the extra 5 baht (which actually for me adds up to about 1000 dollars a year)? Sounds like it is you who is wound up. I just mentioned the tourists versus resident thing to provide another proof that the pricing is based on RACE. All the ranting about its just 5 baht doesn't mean it isn't racism.

Edited September 9, 2007 by Jingthing

[DirkGently]

I agree with the OP, but I'm not sure i'd allow a situation to sink to violence for 10 baht.

For those who say "forget your principles". I say this. If you knew your neighbour was doing something wrong with drugs/robbery/fraud/people traffiking/insert crime here. Would you ignore it "'cos this is Thailand!

[soundman]

Even to go 1 stop cost 1.50 pounds. To take a tube 1 stop cost 3 pounds. So as much as you try to rap it up as RACIST crap Its just you being TIGHT! Rant over!

However, it is still the same price for everyone, right? Not different prices per postcodes?

Soundman.

[tropo]

Racism

Obviously, but I guess some people just refuse to see things as they really are.

You must have a tough time in Thailand thinking that everyone is racist.

Local businesses trying to extract some extra money from tourists is commonplace in most countries. It's astonishing that you can't see this and continue to harp: Racist! Racism!.

I am not a tourist. I live here. Labeling everyone who has white skin as a tourist is ... racist. Not that I condone fleecing tourists, just addressing your point. Don't attack me personally, prove this isn't racism. I doubt you can.

BTW, I never once said that I think everyone in Thailand is racist. Funny you have to resort to such extreme absurd fantasy charges to defend your point; proves to me you have run out of ammo! I calls em like I sees em, and the baht bus pricing system is a classic example of racism. It is simple really. They see your skin color, they decide to treat you differently based on your skin color and other racial characteristics. Its hard to even imagine a clearer example of racism.

One definition of racism is: racial prejudice or discrimination.

Discrimination means treating people differently based on their race. Riders of baht buses are treated differently based on their race. It is not a race neutral ride.

You could argue that this is an example of benign racism. It isn't lynching or shooting, after all. But it is still racism.

Absolute nonsense, once again.

If you look like a tourist, you'll be treated as a tourist. Obviously if you are white, ascertaining your status is easier.

If you are a black tourist (Indian, or African), then you'll pay the tourist/standard rate too. If you are a non-Thai Asian from Japan, China and Korea, you'll also be charged the standard rate (10 baht).

You don't have a clue about racism. It's nothing to do with race at all, it's to do with whether or not you are Thai or a tourist.

It also doesn't matter if you are a local resident or not, if you look like a tourist, you'll be charged like one. Why don't you walk around with a sign hung around your neck stating clearly (in Thai) that you are not a tourist and that you live here.

You're just a cheap charlie running around screaming "racist" with a huge chip on your shoulder.

Edited September 9, 2007 by tropo

[tropo]

Racism

Obviously, but I guess some people just refuse to see things as they really are.

i see the racism very clear. our housemaid, her husband the gardener and our driver ask every month for money because we are farangs.

do we need more evidence that rascism is rampant in Thailand?

Dr Naan, you've missed the point of this discussion. We're not discussing racism in Thailand, we're discussing whether or not being charged a 10 baht fare on a baht bus is due to racism, or tourism.

Edited September 9, 2007 by tropo

[soundman]

Well then tropo - why is it OK for Thai's to charge double for public transport when the taxi's, buses, trains etc don't do it back in the West?

Soundman.

[tropo]

. Who said I can't afford the extra 5 baht (which actually for me adds up to about 1000 dollars a year)?

You ride a baht bus 18 times a day everyday of the year? Hard to believe.

[Jingthing]

. Who said I can't afford the extra 5 baht (which actually for me adds up to about 1000 dollars a year)?

You ride a baht bus 18 times a day everyday of the year? Hard to believe.

You're right, my math was off.

[tropo]

Well then tropo - why is it OK for Thai's to charge double for public transport when the taxi's, buses, trains etc don't do it back in the West?

Soundman.

You should read the thread first. They don't charge double, but offer discounts to locals. Cheap Charlies and locals get discounts but often run into problems doing it. Do you really think the baht buses don't want to charge Thais full price? Of course they do, and will whenever they get the chance.

[Jingthing]

You don't have a clue about racism. It's nothing to do with race at all, it's to do with whether or not you are Thai or a tourist.

The Thai are a race, yes? I think Indian Thais get charged the racist rate too, unless they can indicate to the driver that they are actually Thai nationality. Same issue for Thais who racially appear to be farangs. The decision is based solely on RACIAL appearance. Garden variety racism. You almost never see Thai Indians on the baht buses, only Indian Indians. They seem to usually be on motos. I wonder if this racism is the reason why.

So I told you I pay the racist fare, how does that make me a cheap charley?

Edited September 9, 2007 by Jingthing

[tropo]

I agree with the OP, but I'm not sure i'd allow a situation to sink to violence for 10 baht.

For those who say "forget your principles". I say this. If you knew your neighbour was doing something wrong with drugs/robbery/fraud/people traffiking/insert crime here. Would you ignore it "'cos this is Thailand!

I would ignore it. If it was causing a problem for me, I'd move.

[Jingthing]

Well then tropo - why is it OK for Thai's to charge double for public transport when the taxi's, buses, trains etc don't do it back in the West?

Soundman.

You should read the thread first. They don't charge double, but offer discounts to locals. Cheap Charlies and locals get discounts but often run into problems doing it. Do you really think the baht buses don't want to charge Thais full price? Of course they do, and will whenever they get the chance.

What are you saying? That white locals are entitled to the Thai race price according to the baht buse mafia? You are wrong, as usual. They are making the decision based on racial appearance only.

Edited September 9, 2007 by Jingthing

[soundman]

Well then tropo - why is it OK for Thai's to charge double for public transport when the taxi's, buses, trains etc don't do it back in the West?

Soundman.

You should read the thread first. They don't charge double, but offer discounts to locals. Cheap Charlies and locals get discounts but often run into problems doing it. Do you really think the baht buses don't want to charge Thais full price? Of course they do, and will whenever they get the chance.

The last time I checked the listed price is 5B for a short trip. Why make it compulsory for a farang (tourist or resident) to pay 10B when the actual legitimate fare is 5B?

[tropo]

You don't have a clue about racism. It's nothing to do with race at all, it's to do with whether or not you are Thai or a tourist.

The Thai are a race, yes?

No, the Thais are not a race, they are a nation of people who are PART of a race which extends thousands of miles past the borders of Thailand in all directions.

You're confusing "nationalism" with "racism".

As a very crude example, visit Cambodia and what you'll discover that Cambodians are not fond of Thais (to put it mildly) and they are exactly the same race.

Historically Thais were at war with Burmese, also of the same race.

[soundman]

As a very crude example, visit Cambodia and what you'll discover that Cambodians are not fond of Thais (to put it mildly) and they are exactly the same race.

Unless you are talking species as in homo sapiens or "the human race" I think you will find that the kymer are a very different "race" to malay, shan, karen, lao or hmong etc.

They even look radically different, so much so that they might get charged 10B as well on the Baht bus.

[tropo]

The last time I checked the listed price is 5B for a short trip. Why make it compulsory for a farang (tourist or resident) to pay 10B when the actual legitimate fare is 5B?

Where did you check the listed price? Where is it?

[tropo]

As a very crude example, visit Cambodia and what you'll discover that Cambodians are not fond of Thais (to put it mildly) and they are exactly the same race.

Unless you are talking species as in homo sapiens or "the human race" I think you will find that the kymer are a very different "race" to malay, shan, karen, lao or hmong etc.

They even look radically different, so much so that they might get charged 10B as well on the Baht bus.

You're talking about ethnic groups and nationalities, not races.

Look radically different? No way!

[soundman]

The last time I checked the listed price is 5B for a short trip. Why make it compulsory for a farang (tourist or resident) to pay 10B when the actual legitimate fare is 5B?

Where did you check the listed price? Where is it?

On a sticker on the rear window pane behind the drivers head, which I presume is supposed to be displayed under Thai law....

[tropo]

The last time I checked the listed price is 5B for a short trip. Why make it compulsory for a farang (tourist or resident) to pay 10B when the actual legitimate fare is 5B?

Where did you check the listed price? Where is it?

On a sticker on the rear window pane behind the drivers head, which I presume is supposed to be displayed under Thai law....

You will not see any stickers indicating the price of a baht bus ride is 5 baht.

Apparently there are some stickers stating the price is not over 10 baht.

Maybe Jingthing can enlighten us as he is a very frequent baht bus rider, and should be aware of all the stickers in them.

[libya 115]

We can debate it for pages and pages. They don't care. Even the Pattaya city hall and mayor supports the double pricing. I pay 10B and I think that is just fine. Anyway, I would say most Thais aren't paying 5B anymore, except for very very short journeys maybe. 10B is standard.

Yes, agreed, I have traveled a few times in the cab and the only time I have seen a Thai pay 5Baht was for a child, all these trips were for Jomtien to Pattaya or the other way round, many Thais went less than half way but still paid 10Baht.

For you Cheap Charlie's out there who obviously are in Thai terms very wealthy and only pay 5Baht, I just wounder how you can sleep at night?

BB

The fare on the Jomtien to Pattaya route is 10 baht, even for those who appear to be racially Thai; that route is an exception!!!!! Take the baht bus on the cross town routes like Pattaya Tai and Pattaya Klang. The people that appear to be racially Thai are paying 5 baht.

It should keep us up at night to pay what people who look racially Thai pay? Why? Do you suffer from some kind of white man's burden guilt complex? Not all of us are so psychologically plagued.

BTW, if you are a farang and going far out Jomtien beach road, expect to often be pressured (sometimes violently) to pay 20 baht or more. Indeed, it is common for them to stop at some point and either kick you off (have a nice long walk in the hot sun or wet rain, farang) or demand a magical tranformation into a 100 baht taxi. Some service! And yes, I think there should be a law that requires the baht bus drivers to go as far down Jomtien Beach road as needed to serve all the passengers on their so called bus. There is implied contract for that when you board the bus; they break it all the time!

This is a race based system. Judgments are made based on racial appearance. If this was a locals discount why can't I get a locals ID card that would offer me whiteface the same so called local's discount?

'jingthing', your Pattaya travel observations are becoming risible.

If you travel from the South Pattaya Road, by Songthaew, as I have been doing regularly for the last six+ years you will know that the Baht Bus leaves, when full and that the charge is 10 Baht.

If you go {sic; "far out"} along the Jomtien Beach Road then have the farang decency to pay 20 baht.

Most Songthaew, travelling from Pattaya Tai to Jomtien Beach Road do not expect to finish their journey at the complete end of the Jomtien Beach Road. In fact most terminate at Sai Chayapreuk.

It is common courtesy, if you wish to travel the complete length of Jomtien Beach Road to negotiate a fare, by charter. Do not expect it as an automatic right.

There is no race issue here. Thai subjects would get no different treatment than us farang. The South Pattaya-Jomtien route is a different case altogether.

I wish you good luck if you persist in being a 'Cheap Charlie' and niggle and fret about a 5/10 baht fare. Be a man (or woman): pay 10 baht with a smile.

[DirkGently]

Tropo, would you really move evrytime you found something that you don't like?

Where are you from? Did you move here because there was something you didn't like?

Where next?

Are you seeking utopia?

Where is perfect?

[Jingthing]

I agree the Jomtien / Pattaya is different. For that route, Thais also pay 10 baht. I agree it is reasonable to pay 20 baht to go far out Jomtien beach road and I do that. I also often pay 20 baht to go from Jomtien far into Pattaya, but have been told by Thais that they can all the way from Jomtien well into Naklua and pay 10 baht (impossible for race based priced farang). I don't agree 100 or 200 baht is reasonable, and that is what is often demanded. They often kick you out way earlier than Soi Chayapreuk.

I pay the farang fares. Whether I smile or not is kind of my business. No real time to relate to the drivers because if you don't move fast, they will chop your arm off. How many long term baht bus riders haven't had their arm hit by the window as they speed off? I have encountered some lovely sweet drivers. Mostly not. I see the rate decisions being made based on racial appearance based on my direct observation of reality. If you doubt this, if you are a whitey, try to go around town and hand them 5 baht for a 10 baht farang route. Watch the reactions! Now ask a Thai friend to do the same. Watch them drive off without comment. Get it now?

Let us imagine a time in the future when the Chinese are the new America. A Chinese visits New York City. The fare box has two meters. One for Chinese (double rate) and one for all other races. Local American Chinese have to prove everytime that they are really Americans, not Chinese. Or worse, they never get to pay the local fare because of their race (and that is the situation for farangs in Pattaya). Sound racist to you? Whats the diff? Would you call that fare system a locals discount or would you call it what it is, a race based pricing system?

Now I agree Thailand is different and part of the experience of Thailand is Thai xenophobia and racism. I don't think it is our place to try to change Thailand. But I do think it is our place to see clearly what is going on.

BTW, I still think the Thais are a race and Thailand is a country controlled by people of the Thai race. You could get anthropological and say the Thai are a subset of a greater Asian race.

http://www.magma.ca/~thaiott/thaihis1.htm

The origin of the Thai race is still a matter of debate, though many theories and hypotheses have been presented. One hypothesis contends that the Thais emigrated from Sichuan Province in central China and founded a kingdom in southern China. In 1255 they were driven farther south by the Mongol ruler, then into Indochina and present day Thailand. A theory based on linguistic evidence tells that the Thais migrated southward from the southern Chinese provinces of Kwangtung, Kwangsi and Yunnan where the Thai language is still spoken. The latest hypothesis claims that archaeological and anthropological evidence prove that the Thais have been in the area which is present day Thailand for a long time. Thus, further research is needed before any definite conclusions can be drawn.

Also, do not understand why people keep calling me a cheap Charley when I do pay the race based fares. I really don't get that. I am always pleased to pay money to avoid violence. Money well spent and I like the way my face looks unsmashed. You could call me a Cheap Charley defender though.

Edited September 9, 2007 by Jingthing

[tropo]

Tropo, would you really move evrytime you found something that you don't like?

Where are you from? Did you move here because there was something you didn't like?

Where next?

Are you seeking utopia?

Where is perfect?

You really misunderstood my comment. What I'm basically saying is that if people next door to me in Pattaya were involved in illegal activities, I would not report them to anyone. IF I couldn't handle the situation, I would move. Personally I'd just mind my own business and moving would only be a consideration if my own safety was in jeopardy.

The place where I live right now is perfect.

[tropo]

BTW, I still think the Thais are a race and Thailand is a country controlled by people of the Thai race. You could get anthropological and say the Thai are a subset of a greater Asian race.

One of the reasons why the word "race" brought up in an argument makes no sense at all is because the word itself is ambiguous and the meaning thereof is open to debate.

You like to call Thais a race, I call them a subgroup in a wider group of physically similar people.

I prefer the definition of the word race as: "A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics."

This definition covers the whole SE Asia Geographic area, and a large part of Indonesia and the Philippines.

I've never yet met a Filipino in Thailand who doesn't always get mistaken as a Thai. No one has EVER picked my GF as being Filipino in 1 1/2 years of living here.

If we mixed up say 10 Indonesians, 10 Malaysians, 10 Filipinos, 10 Burmese, 10 Cambodians, 10 Vietnamese, 10 Laotians and 10 Thais in a lineup, I'd like to see how close anyone could get to picking out the Thais.

[Jingthing]

BTW, I still think the Thais are a race and Thailand is a country controlled by people of the Thai race. You could get anthropological and say the Thai are a subset of a greater Asian race.

One of the reasons why the word "race" brought up in an argument makes no sense at all is because the word itself is ambiguous and the meaning thereof is open to debate.

You like to call Thais a race, I call them a subgroup in a wider group of physically similar people.

I prefer the definition of the word race as: "A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics."

This definition covers the whole SE Asia Geographic area, and a large part of Indonesia and the Philippines.

I've never yet met a Filipino in Thailand who doesn't always get mistaken as a Thai. No one has EVER picked my GF as being Filipino in 1 1/2 years of living here.

If we mixed up say 10 Indonesians, 10 Malaysians, 10 Filipinos, 10 Burmese, 10 Cambodians, 10 Vietnamese, 10 Laotians and 10 Thais in a lineup, I'd like to see how close anyone could get to picking out the Thais.

This is over my head, but thanks for the insight. I don't even really care about race. Some will say ethnic Thais are a race, others will not. But they are clearly an identifiable group of people with similar racial characteristics. I agree baht bus drivers make snap racial decisions, an Indonesian or Filipino could pass as a Thai. Different people are treated differently based on their racial appearance, which I have explained before meets the definition of racism. To me, people are people. I feel warmth towards good people of all races. However, the topic we are talking about is baht bus fares. The drivers make decisions based on race or physical appearance that gives clues about race, or whatever you like to call it. Please at least admit that fact. These race based things are messy and there are lots of exceptions. Look at South Africa under apartheid, how they dealt with Indians and mulatos. My point is all of this unpleasant messiness over race is just not needed. If we were all treated the same, no matter what our racial appearance, then there are no debates about whether such and such a practice is racism.

Edited September 9, 2007 by Jingthing