Who's Who In Thailand's Muslim Insurgency

[bingobongo]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/II08Ae01.html

[geriatrickid]

I think they forgot to mention the IYMIG.

Impressionable Young Male Idealistic Group consisting mostly of young males ages 14 to 25 that are manipulated and coerced into doing most of the dirty work for the insurgents by older males, usually aged 35-50 that make sure to remain out of harm's way when there is trouble.

[kmart]

Its not a surprise that they target schools and schoolteachers. They rely on ignorance and backwardness as a recruiting ground.

[sceadugenga]

I think they forgot to mention the IYMIG.

Impressionable Young Male Idealistic Group consisting mostly of young males ages 14 to 25 that are manipulated and coerced into doing most of the dirty work for the insurgents by older males, usually aged 35-50 that make sure to remain out of harm's way when there is trouble.

A common fallacy is that the upper echelons of terrorist groups are cowards because they don't strap on the explosive belts or hijack the planes themselves. They are fully aware that their role is far more important than that of the "foot soldiers" and the security forces target them because of it.

With torture an accepted tool of anti-terrorism forces these days they know what their fate will be if captured, possibly far worse than disappearing in a puff of smoke somewhere.

[ColPyat]

Its not a surprise that they target schools and schoolteachers. They rely on ignorance and backwardness as a recruiting ground.

Actually, no, that is not the reason.

They target schools and teachers as they reject the Thai school system, and the Thai Nationalism that is part of the curriculum. Schools and teachers have always been one of the most important tools by the state to instill nationalism in the youth all over the country.

So, for example, in the 70's the most important village scout leaders were next to the Ampur officials the local teachers. Also during the referendum for the constitution now you could see all over the country school children ordered to take part in pro constitution marches without asking for parental consent.

Schools in Thailand are politicized.

[lotus eater]

Its not a surprise that they target schools and schoolteachers. They rely on ignorance and backwardness as a recruiting ground.

Actually, no, that is not the reason.

They target schools and teachers as they reject the Thai school system, and the Thai Nationalism that is part of the curriculum. Schools and teachers have always been one of the most important tools by the state to instill nationalism in the youth all over the country.

So, for example, in the 70's the most important village scout leaders were next to the Ampur officials the local teachers. Also during the referendum for the constitution now you could see all over the country school children ordered to take part in pro constitution marches without asking for parental consent.

Schools in Thailand are politicized.

That is right.

I fear that kmart (and many others I've read on tv) are determined, no matter the evidence or argument, to identify this problem as one caused by the intrinsic ignorance or malevolence of muslims. Something that could be called bigotry.

This problem is at root one of a linguistic, cultural and ethnic minority engaged in an insurgency against a government trying to assimilate them by stamping out said language, culture and ethnic identity by all sorts of means - including 'educational'.

If thais would accept a certain diversity in the country and offer the troubled south the sort of freedoms that Canada offers Quebec the insurgents could more easily be isolated. But so far the thai strategy has been uncompromising military force and an attempt to indoctrinate the young with thai nationalism and the thai language (hence attacks on schools and teachers.) This forceful strategy is serving to islamicize the insurgency; which is such a pity given the thai own lack of anti-islamic feeling. (Anyone who doubts this last fact should consider where just 2 open and practising muslims rose to in Thailand - Sonthi as head of the army and Surin as Thailand's ex foreign minister and its losing nominee to SecGen of the UN and now SecGen of Asean. In which other non-muslim country could this have happened?)

[geriatrickid]

And I disagree with you. You offered the example of the province of Quebec, well known for it's Xenophobia and for the remaining vestiges of state sponsored religion (You need only look at the publicly funded giant cross on top of Mt. Royal in Montreal to see that.)

1. Thai Nationalism that is part of the curriculum.

2. Schools and teachers have always been one of the most important tools by the state to instill nationalism in the youth all over the country.

3. Also during the referendum for the constitution now you could see all over the country school children ordered to take part in pro constitution marches without asking for parental consent.

4. Schools in Thailand are politicized.

Guess what, you just described the Quebec school system where a revisionist history is taught that emphasizes the "suffering" of the allegedly oppressed pur laine Quebecois. Little mention is ever made of the role or contribution of les autres (the others). During the multiple Quebec referendums, teachers in the french schools, who are some of the staunchest supporters of seperatism, were coercing and propagandizing their students.

I mention this point to correct the false impression that may have been given about Quebec and it's accomodation of "others". It is still a crime punishable to post signs in English in Quebec.

5. I fear that kmart (and many others I've read on tv) are determined, no matter the evidence or argument, to identify this problem as one caused by the intrinsic ignorance or malevolence of (certain religious group) Something that could be called bigotry.

I do not want to have this descend into a discussion of religion, as I am fully aware of people's sensitivities. I have deleted the reference to the religion to avoid offence and a violation of TV rules in respect to my next comment; There are indeed self proclaimed adherents of a certain religion that are pushing an agenda. It may not be fully supported by the religion but the religion is used as a pretext upon which to demand specific changes and actions. The followers of said religion will not accomodate contrary views.

6. This problem is at root one of a linguistic, cultural and ethnic minority engaged in an insurgency against a government trying to assimilate them by stamping out said language, culture and ethnic identity by all sorts of means - including 'educational'.

This is the same excuse trotted out to support the Taliban's closing of schools and rules forbidding the education of girls. In order for the impoverished and uneducated deep south to move forward, there must be a consistent system of education. All that the National government is trying to do is to ensure that all Thais have access to the same type of education. In the west it is called, a minimum standards curriculum

You also conveniently did not mention the targeted murder of public health workers. How is a polio vaccination worker a tool of the state? Why is a public health nurse targeted when she tries to explain disease avoidance a legitimate target? How does a nutrition specialist bringing important food upplements merit murder?

8. But so far the thai strategy has been uncompromising military force and an attempt to indoctrinate the young with thai nationalism and the thai language (hence attacks on schools and teachers.) This forceful strategy is serving to islamicize the insurgency; which is such a pity given the thai own lack of anti-islamic feeling.

No. The Thai response has been one of restraint for the past year.If the Thai military wanted to impose a scorched earth strategy, it could easily do so. I know that this may seem naive, but the Thai military really is trying to minimize collateral damage.

9. (Anyone who doubts this last fact should consider where just 2 open and practising muslims rose to in Thailand - Sonthi as head of the army and Surin as Thailand's ex foreign minister and its losing nominee to SecGen of the UN and now SecGen of Asean. In which other non-muslim country could this have happened?)

Try Canada, the USA and many EU nations. Thailand also has a fairly liberal approach to non Bhuddists. The Thai government doesn't block the construction of mosques and even funds many of them. Foreign Christian preachers are allowed to preach at existing churches. Now reverse that and look at what happens if a Bhuddist wants to build a Temple in Malaysia or Indonesia. Saudi and Iranian clerics can visit the mosques of the south and preach. If a Bhuddist, Christian, or Jew tried to go to Saudi Arabia or Iran to preach, you know what would happen. Thailand isn't perfect, but they are certainly a heck of a lot more open than those that are continually criticizing the nation.

However, the key fact that you did not address is that the main source of funds is foreign. Why are foreigners funding the insurgency if not to cause problems on a larger scale. Those foreign entities really don't carry about the locals, they are after bigger things.

Edited September 8, 2007 by geriatrickid

[ColPyat]

And I disagree with you. You offered the example of the province of Quebec, well known for it's Xenophobia and for the remaining vestiges of state sponsored religion (You need only look at the publicly funded giant cross on top of Mt. Royal in Montreal to see that.)

1. Thai Nationalism that is part of the curriculum.

2. Schools and teachers have always been one of the most important tools by the state to instill nationalism in the youth all over the country.

3. Also during the referendum for the constitution now you could see all over the country school children ordered to take part in pro constitution marches without asking for parental consent.

4. Schools in Thailand are politicized.

Guess what, you just described the Quebec school system where a revisionist history is taught that emphasizes the "suffering" of the allegedly oppressed pur laine Quebecois. Little mention is ever made of the role or contribution of les autres (the others). During the multiple Quebec referendums, teachers in the french schools, who are some of the staunchest supporters of seperatism, were coercing and propagandizing their students.

I mention this point to correct the false impression that may have been given about Quebec and it's accomodation of "others". It is still a crime punishable to post signs in English in Quebec.

5. I fear that kmart (and many others I've read on tv) are determined, no matter the evidence or argument, to identify this problem as one caused by the intrinsic ignorance or malevolence of (certain religious group) Something that could be called bigotry.

I do not want to have this descend into a discussion of religion, as I am fully aware of people's sensitivities. I have deleted the reference to the religion to avoid offence and a violation of TV rules in respect to my next comment; There are indeed self proclaimed adherents of a certain religion that are pushing an agenda. It may not be fully supported by the religion but the religion is used as a pretext upon which to demand specific changes and actions. The followers of said religion will not accomodate contrary views.

6. This problem is at root one of a linguistic, cultural and ethnic minority engaged in an insurgency against a government trying to assimilate them by stamping out said language, culture and ethnic identity by all sorts of means - including 'educational'.

This is the same excuse trotted out to support the Taliban's closing of schools and rules forbidding the education of girls. In order for the impoverished and uneducated deep south to move forward, there must be a consistent system of education. All that the National government is trying to do is to ensure that all Thais have access to the same type of education. In the west it is called, a minimum standards curriculum

You also conveniently did not mention the targeted murder of public health workers. How is a polio vaccination worker a tool of the state? Why is a public health nurse targeted when she tries to explain disease avoidance a legitimate target? How does a nutrition specialist bringing important food upplements merit murder?

8. But so far the thai strategy has been uncompromising military force and an attempt to indoctrinate the young with thai nationalism and the thai language (hence attacks on schools and teachers.) This forceful strategy is serving to islamicize the insurgency; which is such a pity given the thai own lack of anti-islamic feeling.

No. The Thai response has been one of restraint for the past year.If the Thai military wanted to impose a scorched earth strategy, it could easily do so. I know that this may seem naive, but the Thai military really is trying to minimize collateral damage.

9. (Anyone who doubts this last fact should consider where just 2 open and practising muslims rose to in Thailand - Sonthi as head of the army and Surin as Thailand's ex foreign minister and its losing nominee to SecGen of the UN and now SecGen of Asean. In which other non-muslim country could this have happened?)

Try Canada, the USA and many EU nations. Thailand also has a fairly liberal approach to non Bhuddists. The Thai government doesn't block the construction of mosques and even funds many of them. Foreign Christian preachers are allowed to preach at existing churches. Now reverse that and look at what happens if a Bhuddist wants to build a Temple in Malaysia or Indonesia. Saudi and Iranian clerics can visit the mosques of the south and preach. If a Bhuddist, Christian, or Jew tried to go to Saudi Arabia or Iran to preach, you know what would happen. Thailand isn't perfect, but they are certainly a heck of a lot more open than those that are continually criticizing the nation.

However, the key fact that you did not address is that the main source of funds is foreign. Why are foreigners funding the insurgency if not to cause problems on a larger scale. Those foreign entities really don't carry about the locals, they are after bigger things.

Actually, you confused two posts here (as you did with several other issues here).

I brought up the point about the school system, not though anything about Quebec as i don't know anything about that part of the world.

Down south is a very dirty civil war, and both sides figt dirty. Read this article about the Thai response:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/200...057/0/RSS_WORLD

Also, the Thai school system unfortunately is not just about minimum education, it is very much about instilling nationalism (which is also a major problem for me when i have to send my little one to school soon, but that is besides the point). The PULO has already pointed out clearly that they have nothing against education - but against the particular Thai education system.

Also, don't lump Afghanistan etc. into the insurgency down south, there are huge differences, such as Afghani fanatics having received money and training from US/Saudi since the 50's, and the southern insurgents haven't. The only comparable insurgency was in Aceh (recently solved through negotiations), and Kashmir at the beginning in which the religious element did play a lesser role than the separatist element (which though was taken over soon by Pakisthan/US/Saudi sponsored Afghan Arabs and Pakisthanis).

As this is though about South Thailand, we should leave the rest of the world, which has very little to do with an entirely Thai home made problem, out of this.

There is no proof whatsoever about the financing allegation of the southern insurgency. Personally, i do not believe that this is well financed at all. But it is extremely well planned and executed. Low budget - home made bombs, a few AK 47s, stolen M16s, the infamous "Luah Bai" - nails on the roads, cheaply printed flyers distributed to a well organized underground agitprop network. Basically - we are talking about nasty and dirty low budget guerrilla warfare. No expensive high tech.

And yes, in Malaysia there are countless Buddhist temples. The Chinese minority goes to temples there, and many are Mahayana Buddhist. There are countless Hindu temples there as well. Indonesia has churches of all Christian denominations, one whole island is Hindu - Bali. So - what are you on about?

[lotus eater]

And I disagree with you. You offered the example of the province of Quebec, well known for it's Xenophobia and for the remaining vestiges of state sponsored religion (You need only look at the publicly funded giant cross on top of Mt. Royal in Montreal to see that.)

1. Thai Nationalism that is part of the curriculum.

2. Schools and teachers have always been one of the most important tools by the state to instill nationalism in the youth all over the country.

3. Also during the referendum for the constitution now you could see all over the country school children ordered to take part in pro constitution marches without asking for parental consent.

4. Schools in Thailand are politicized.

Guess what, you just described the Quebec school system where a revisionist history is taught that emphasizes the "suffering" of the allegedly oppressed pur laine Quebecois. Little mention is ever made of the role or contribution of les autres (the others). During the multiple Quebec referendums, teachers in the french schools, who are some of the staunchest supporters of seperatism, were coercing and propagandizing their students.

I mention this point to correct the false impression that may have been given about Quebec and it's accomodation of "others". It is still a crime punishable to post signs in English in Quebec.

5. I fear that kmart (and many others I've read on tv) are determined, no matter the evidence or argument, to identify this problem as one caused by the intrinsic ignorance or malevolence of (certain religious group) Something that could be called bigotry.

I do not want to have this descend into a discussion of religion, as I am fully aware of people's sensitivities. I have deleted the reference to the religion to avoid offence and a violation of TV rules in respect to my next comment; There are indeed self proclaimed adherents of a certain religion that are pushing an agenda. It may not be fully supported by the religion but the religion is used as a pretext upon which to demand specific changes and actions. The followers of said religion will not accomodate contrary views.

6. This problem is at root one of a linguistic, cultural and ethnic minority engaged in an insurgency against a government trying to assimilate them by stamping out said language, culture and ethnic identity by all sorts of means - including 'educational'.

This is the same excuse trotted out to support the Taliban's closing of schools and rules forbidding the education of girls. In order for the impoverished and uneducated deep south to move forward, there must be a consistent system of education. All that the National government is trying to do is to ensure that all Thais have access to the same type of education. In the west it is called, a minimum standards curriculum

You also conveniently did not mention the targeted murder of public health workers. How is a polio vaccination worker a tool of the state? Why is a public health nurse targeted when she tries to explain disease avoidance a legitimate target? How does a nutrition specialist bringing important food upplements merit murder?

8. But so far the thai strategy has been uncompromising military force and an attempt to indoctrinate the young with thai nationalism and the thai language (hence attacks on schools and teachers.) This forceful strategy is serving to islamicize the insurgency; which is such a pity given the thai own lack of anti-islamic feeling.

No. The Thai response has been one of restraint for the past year.If the Thai military wanted to impose a scorched earth strategy, it could easily do so. I know that this may seem naive, but the Thai military really is trying to minimize collateral damage.

9. (Anyone who doubts this last fact should consider where just 2 open and practising muslims rose to in Thailand - Sonthi as head of the army and Surin as Thailand's ex foreign minister and its losing nominee to SecGen of the UN and now SecGen of Asean. In which other non-muslim country could this have happened?)

Try Canada, the USA and many EU nations. Thailand also has a fairly liberal approach to non Bhuddists. The Thai government doesn't block the construction of mosques and even funds many of them. Foreign Christian preachers are allowed to preach at existing churches. Now reverse that and look at what happens if a Bhuddist wants to build a Temple in Malaysia or Indonesia. Saudi and Iranian clerics can visit the mosques of the south and preach. If a Bhuddist, Christian, or Jew tried to go to Saudi Arabia or Iran to preach, you know what would happen. Thailand isn't perfect, but they are certainly a heck of a lot more open than those that are continually criticizing the nation.

However, the key fact that you did not address is that the main source of funds is foreign. Why are foreigners funding the insurgency if not to cause problems on a larger scale. Those foreign entities really don't carry about the locals, they are after bigger things.

This is not the place for a very lengthy back-and-forth on this sort of topic. So I'll do my best to be brief, even if the comments are consequently rough and ready.

Your introduction of the Taliban etc is, in my opinion, a red herring. I repeat that this is chiefly a problem of language, culture and ethnicity. The Basques in Spain and the Tamils in Sri Lanka are better parallels. (Although in this case Thailand annexed Pattani much more recently (1902) than the other examples.) But I think Colpyat is right that the rest of the world is best left out of this.

My chief point is that where a country has a linguistic, cultural, ethnic minority it is perhaps better to accommodate the diversity and protect the facets that the minority values. The alternative of stamping out those differences can easily lead to escalating violence and brutality on both sides - which is happening in the south. A recent Newsweek article had another report of the hard tactics employed by the army, its lack of punishment of past army atrocities and the harsh tactics of undisciplined and untrained soldiers. And the insurgents are indeed lashing out at all and any representatives of the state - which they see as 'foreign'.

I admire and was praising the thais' lack of anti muslim feeling - hence the examples I cited of Sonthi and Surin. I asked which other non-muslim country has muslims rising to positions at the very top, or anywhere near it - I think none. Of course there are plenty of countries which have varying degrees of tolerance to minorities; but the subject here is minority muslims. So the problem in Thailand is nothing to do with religion - but will become one if present official stategy continues. Furthermore if the insurgency in the south is suppressed an even worse backlash could be the bombings etc in the rest of Thaiand - with disastrous consequences to tourism. (Sri Lanka is an example of this sort of thing.)

And as for the supposed intolerance of muslim countries - apart from those covered by Copiyat - there is free and open worship in churches by christians throughout the muslim countries of N Africa, the Levant and the middle east (except Arabia and Afghanistan); and I can cite christians having held the very highest positions in government, the courts, diplomacy and the armed forces in for example Egypt, Palestine, Iraq and Pakistan. So I too ask - what are you on about?