?

[DirkGently]

My wife too. She used to do it long ago, but has now, thankfully, stopped. I have noticed she spends less time burning sticks and offering things to the multitude of statues she has. I think/hope as time has gone on she relies on less of that nonsense and more on the real world.

There isn't a prayer that has ever brought a single tangible thing. Only hard work does that.

[Neeranam]

My wife too. She used to do it long ago, but has now, thankfully, stopped. I have noticed she spends less time burning sticks and offering things to the multitude of statues she has. I think/hope as time has gone on she relies on less of that nonsense and more on the real world.

There isn't a prayer that has ever brought a single tangible thing. Only hard work does that.

I beg to differ - prayer has brought me lots and lots of wondreful things.

[DirkGently]

Name One! Just one! Can't do it, can you? Pray and stoop all you like and your loved ones will still die, the news from your doc won't be good, you will still lose your job etc etc.

if nothing else, prayer has to be the single most dissapointing thing one can do.

[buffcoat]

Since the standard response to 'I prayed/wished/cast a spell for X and it then took place' is 'that was just coincidence' it is of course impossible to prove.

Some of us know that what we do can make a measurable change, your unbelief will not change that and it does not matter to me that you do not believe, everyone has the right to their own belief or lack.

If you need proof then as you rightly state that cannot be forthcoming.

[sukanyacondo]

Wife says, she used to do this for good luck when we met but she sees so many Monks "on the make" and from actually thinking now about what she was doing that she no longer believes it will do anything and least of all give her good luck. She does not believe it and is tired of seeing Monks ripping of Thai people.

Same with the amulets I think. Pray 1000 times you will have good luck, but she says rubbish now.

Now she just helps underpriveleged people ie no arms legs eyes etc by giving them money and helping with food etc, the Monks get nothing.

This is her reply to me asking today.

[simon43]

Dirkgently - I'm not particularly religious, but I can certainly recognise that prayer can calm a troubled/busy mind. It can help one to 'sort out' problems and dealings with other people.

To that extent, prayer can certainly bring wonderful things and one should never criticise the religious beliefs of another person, even if their belief and rituals look crazy to the 'unbeliever'

Simon

[DirkGently]

Oh come on! Like I said, Praying has never ever in the history of the universe given anybody a single tangible thing.

So what if prayer can calm a troubled mind! Nothing tangible there. A good foot massage can do the same thing, are you going to suggest that a foot massage is somehow holy?

I agree it is up to the individual to spend/waste their time as they choose.

Let's face facts. This is 2007. For every single 'miracle' there are a million prayers that are ignored. Just because little Lucy Smith gets over her heart problem it does'nt mean a thing when thousands of Africans die for want of water or people cry out lord save me, before they drown.

The same as waiting for santa.

[WaiWai]

Wife says, she used to do this for good luck when we met but she sees so many Monks "on the make" and from actually thinking now about what she was doing that she no longer believes it will do anything and least of all give her good luck. She does not believe it and is tired of seeing Monks ripping of Thai people.

Same with the amulets I think. Pray 1000 times you will have good luck, but she says rubbish now.

Now she just helps underpriveleged people ie no arms legs eyes etc by giving them money and helping with food etc, the Monks get nothing.

This is her reply to me asking today.

I am glad you asked and I expect you are, too . Is this a common trend with Thais ? I did start a thread called "Does Thailand need to become more Buddhist?" (or similar) in this section of the forum, and we had some great replies; esp. from ColPyat, but when it began to touch on certain sensitive issues, the responses stopped.

I don't follow any religion because following any one belief above all others is ... well, we know what is happening all around us.

Prayer, if dissociated from superstition , can serve many purposes, though; cathartic confession, cleansing of the mind before sleep, comforting thoughts in time of need, positive thoughts before sleep etc.

What has happened with Buddhism here is quite sad. I do hope there will be a revival of a more genuine pursuit of its wisdom. I hope your wife, along with many others, will not throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak .

[sukanyacondo]

I Think it may be a common trend with Thais in BKK as they experience more of the outside world.

I like her to think more about what she does and not to accept what she has been told without question but its not easy when you have been told it by your parents, teachers and society etc.

[WaiWai]

Right ...

I find it really interesting how Thais do seem susceptible to belief, of various kinds. The culture requires it. Certain myths they have been sold seem to have not been questioned much. Essentially, it's like China under Mao, but with no thought to equalize the wealth ... is it not ?

I am Australian, and very typically anti-conformist and anti-authoritarian. My culture and my parents contributed to that enormously. I wonder how I'd have turned out here .

Letting oneself enjoy "just being" is probably the most wonderful aspect of being (!) in Thailand for harried Westerners.

I have found myself on my knees (position taught by my culture) asking for help from "god" a few or more times in my life. The kneeling/bowing/head down seems universal, doesn't it .

Edited September 9, 2007 by WaiWai

[steveromagnino]

My wife too. She used to do it long ago, but has now, thankfully, stopped. I have noticed she spends less time burning sticks and offering things to the multitude of statues she has. I think/hope as time has gone on she relies on less of that nonsense and more on the real world.

There isn't a prayer that has ever brought a single tangible thing. Only hard work does that.

<deleted>.

A proper prayer for me is a moment of thought, to think about what is important to me, to thank myself and my ancestors for the things that are going well and that are important to me, and to ask for strength to focus on the things that are important but I have not yet acheived/done.

It is not a request for anything beyond myself, but rather a 'note to self'.

Every morning, when i put on my 'soi' I therefore get to remind myself of what is important, to dismiss the things that may cause a chemical reaction (making me angry, upset, sad, etc) which are not important, and focus on things positively which are.

In doing such a thing, over the last 10 years, I believe this daily ritual has allowed me to:

- acheive business success including managing a lot of very different, difficult clients

- deal with the grief of losing my father to cancer

- stay focused to learn new skills that I needed in a job change

- maintain my contact with my family including my elderly mum even though we are not together

- not lose my memory of my dad, the most important person in my life

- acheive athletic success, including being currently nationally ranked in 2 very different sports

- acheive success in helping others, by making time to focus on a few key actions that have raised significant amounts for people around me that were not as fortunate as me

- find happiness with the big picture, despite dealing with niggly things in the small picture

These may not seem tangible to you, but for instance success in work and sport is highly tangible to me, and knowing many successful athletes in their chosen sports, I can tell you at a high level most sports become increasingly a mental fight rather than a physical one.

I know very little about Buddhism, but for me, this is my purpose and the reason I pray. 5 minutes a day, before I start, I already have 'the end in mind'. I consider Buddhism a philosphy more than a religion - it gets easy to get caught up in the rituals rather than the more difficult task of actually thinking about what is important - that is kind of tough! Think how many people work 40 years, and yet have never really thought about what makes them happy, how to control the chemical reactions causing emotions, etc - same thing - easier to focus on the pointless stuff than using your brain.

If the only two things I asked for were to be more detached from the world around me, and be find happiness in life from what i have, then I would say I have a 100% success rate.

Based on a LOT of foreigners I meet here who seem unable to tolerate anything/anyone around them that isn't like the people back home, I would say more than a few should learn the reason and benefits of prayer. because they sure seem mighty unhappy about the most pointless stuff.

Good times. Why other people pray...well who knows.

BTW

Wai taew = waiing the feet of the other person. Pom = hair. It is the highest point of the body. Taew= feet, the lowest point. The ritual of wai taew is what wives were expected to do 100 years ago to their husbands each night, but is also part of the reason, as i understand it, for a wai all the way to teh floor in front of royalty in formal situations/temples and the reason why you apologise for sitting at the same height as royalty or monks, and why you wai differently to people of different ages/significance.

Essentially, wai taew is saying my head (my highest part of my body) is lower than your feet (your lowest part). Similar rituals exist in India as I understand.

Edited September 10, 2007 by steveromagnino

[WaiWai]

BTW

Wai taew = waiing the feet of the other person. Pom = hair. It is the highest point of the body. Taew= feet, the lowest point. The ritual of wai taew is what wives were expected to do 100 years ago to their husbands each night, but is also part of the reason, as i understand it, for a wai all the way to teh floor in front of royalty in formal situations/temples and the reason why you apologise for sitting at the same height as royalty or monks, and why you wai differently to people of different ages/significance.

Essentially, wai taew is saying my head (my highest part of my body) is lower than your feet (your lowest part). Similar rituals exist in India as I understand.

Thanks, steve.

Enjoyed your comments about prayer, too.

[siamamerican]

My wife too. She used to do it long ago, but has now, thankfully, stopped. I have noticed she spends less time burning sticks and offering things to the multitude of statues she has. I think/hope as time has gone on she relies on less of that nonsense and more on the real world.

There isn't a prayer that has ever brought a single tangible thing. Only hard work does that.

<deleted>.

A proper prayer for me is a moment of thought, to think about what is important to me, to thank myself and my ancestors for the things that are going well and that are important to me, and to ask for strength to focus on the things that are important but I have not yet acheived/done.

It is not a request for anything beyond myself, but rather a 'note to self'.

Every morning, when i put on my 'soi' I therefore get to remind myself of what is important, to dismiss the things that may cause a chemical reaction (making me angry, upset, sad, etc) which are not important, and focus on things positively which are.

In doing such a thing, over the last 10 years, I believe this daily ritual has allowed me to:

- acheive business success including managing a lot of very different, difficult clients

- deal with the grief of losing my father to cancer

- stay focused to learn new skills that I needed in a job change

- maintain my contact with my family including my elderly mum even though we are not together

- not lose my memory of my dad, the most important person in my life

- acheive athletic success, including being currently nationally ranked in 2 very different sports

- acheive success in helping others, by making time to focus on a few key actions that have raised significant amounts for people around me that were not as fortunate as me

- find happiness with the big picture, despite dealing with niggly things in the small picture

These may not seem tangible to you, but for instance success in work and sport is highly tangible to me, and knowing many successful athletes in their chosen sports, I can tell you at a high level most sports become increasingly a mental fight rather than a physical one.

I know very little about Buddhism, but for me, this is my purpose and the reason I pray. 5 minutes a day, before I start, I already have 'the end in mind'. I consider Buddhism a philosphy more than a religion - it gets easy to get caught up in the rituals rather than the more difficult task of actually thinking about what is important - that is kind of tough! Think how many people work 40 years, and yet have never really thought about what makes them happy, how to control the chemical reactions causing emotions, etc - same thing - easier to focus on the pointless stuff than using your brain.

If the only two things I asked for were to be more detached from the world around me, and be find happiness in life from what i have, then I would say I have a 100% success rate.

Based on a LOT of foreigners I meet here who seem unable to tolerate anything/anyone around them that isn't like the people back home, I would say more than a few should learn the reason and benefits of prayer. because they sure seem mighty unhappy about the most pointless stuff.

Good times. Why other people pray...well who knows.

BTW

Wai taew = waiing the feet of the other person. Pom = hair. It is the highest point of the body. Taew= feet, the lowest point. The ritual of wai taew is what wives were expected to do 100 years ago to their husbands each night, but is also part of the reason, as i understand it, for a wai all the way to teh floor in front of royalty in formal situations/temples and the reason why you apologise for sitting at the same height as royalty or monks, and why you wai differently to people of different ages/significance.

Essentially, wai taew is saying my head (my highest part of my body) is lower than your feet (your lowest part). Similar rituals exist in India as I understand.

Many forget prayer is not only meant to fortify our beliefs in a God, but to look at ourselves in a spiritual sense. I'm a non-believer, but would probably benefit by starting the day with a prayer. I get so wrapped up in the daily challenges and I forget to take a moment to reflect on my past and the future.

Nice post and nice to hear about your accomplishments.

[Neeranam]

Well said Simon and Steve.

The only scoffers at prayer seem to be the ones who have never tried it. I used to scoff myself.

[steveromagnino]

Well said Simon and Steve.

The only scoffers at prayer seem to be the ones who have never tried it. I used to scoff myself.

Me too :-)

Knowing just a little of your background from the board Neeranam, and having seen an aunt go through the same battle (sadly unsuccessfully) I am sure you can add a lot more in terms of how important it can be to know yourself and to tackle demons inside rather than just wandering along through life without dealing with them. I've had it pretty easy, but even so the prayers for me have had made a tangible difference.

Religion is nothing if you only do the rituals, but too often Atheists and naysayers cannot see there is something other than the ritual bit.

As for my own accomplishments WaiWai, they are far too insignificant and far too few to really comment on, other than to say without some self reflection I might have struggled to acheive even these. As Frank or Tony would have said, 'The Best Is Yet to Come'

[bina]

i think suotmon isnt really prayer in the western religions sense, but rather, as steve says: a silent reminder to onceself about things: my husband never asks for things, he basically states facts out loud to himself as a sort of way of concentrating on specifics:

anon 'wei tao' to give respect to elders and get their 'blessings' the same way a jewish father blesses his children : may u have health wealth happiness etc....

he also refuses to give money for the 'wat junk' (amulets strings etc etc) saying that budhism is in the heart and its all superstition, but will give money to beggars etc...

his father btw is totally covered in tattooes against knife attacks, pali inscriptions etc, and his mother still worships or gives respect to various tree spirits and gods...

anon is not educated except for the year as a monk which apparently gave him an excellent base in 'clean cut' budhism minus all the gobbldigook; he had a good teacher.

check out the thread about women and superstition etc in the ladies forum...

in most cultures it seems that women do tend to latch on to more prayers, superstitions, rituals, whatever: maybe cause they usually had to deal with more problems from childbirth and childrearing to being always slightly in a more vulnerable position in society at work in life it self....

if your wife feels good doing this stuff, as long as she doesnt start wasting lots of money on charms, curses, potions etc, then let it go...

bina

[sukanyacondo]

"Religion is nothing " Well we can agree on this bit, unfortunately none of the rest ,Atheist and happy prayerless and happy too.

[Chopper]

Well said Simon and Steve.

The only scoffers at prayer seem to be the ones who have never tried it. I used to scoff myself.

Me too :-)

Religion is nothing if you only do the rituals, but too often Atheists and naysayers cannot see there is something other than the ritual bit.

Steve what about agnostic? I am. I like to think I am an Atheist with an insurance policy.

[Neeranam]

The following book is a must read.

http://www.amazon.com/s/103-1409446-465104...us%20Experience

[Neeranam]

Prayer replaces the negative with virtue and points to the blessings of Life. It allows us to turn our hearts and minds to the beneficial, inspiring our thoughts and actions.

The purpose of Buddhist prayer is to awaken our inherent inner capacities of strength, compassion and wisdom rather than to petition external forces based on fear, idolizing, and worldly and/or heavenly gain. Buddhist prayer is a form of meditation; it is a practice of inner reconditioning. Buddhist prayer replaces the negative with the virtuous and points us to the blessings of Life.

For Buddhists, prayer expresses an aspiration to pull something into one's life, like some new energy or purifying influence and share it with all beings. Likewise, prayer inspires our hearts towards wisdom and compassion for others and ourselves. It allows us to turn our hearts and minds to the beneficial, rousing our thoughts and actions towards Awakening. If we believe in something enough, it will take hold of us. In other words, believing in it, we will become what we believe. Our ability to be touched like this is evidence of the working of Great Compassion within us.

What's more, it can a function as a form of self-talking or self-therapy in which one mentally talks through a problem, or talks through it aloud, in the hope that some new insight will come or a better decision can be made. Prayer therefore frequently has the function of being part of a decision-making process.

[JetsetBkk]

i think suotmon isnt really prayer in the western religions sense, but rather, as steve says: a silent reminder to onceself about things...

I didn't understand your "suotmon" reference when I read it. But last last I asked the g/f what was the Thai word for what she was doing and she said "สวดมนต์", which as you said is "sùat mon" [ http://www.thai2english.com/dictionary/3423.html ]. She also said it was like the Christian prayer.

Edited September 11, 2007 by JetsetBkk