Rescuers Seek Rescue From Other Rescuers

[llothar]

Thailand is a developing nation with many problems. he foundations are improving in many ways.

I'm reall getting tired of this there is no execuse for not acting in a way thailand could if they want to get out of this barbarian style of society. First of all punish them and punish them hard. 10 millions for an incident like the girl taken to an hospital for profit reasons. Show this guys they can't make money out of acts like this. Punish the people with the most face, make them loose there face. Make emergency care free for all (even the ######ed up healthcare system of the USA has a rule like this to prevent these problems).

It the guys up there would be willing to change they could easily do it.

[ColPyat]

Thailand is a developing nation with many problems. he foundations are improving in many ways.

I'm reall getting tired of this there is no execuse for not acting in a way thailand could if they want to get out of this barbarian style of society. First of all punish them and punish them hard. 10 millions for an incident like the girl taken to an hospital for profit reasons. Show this guys they can't make money out of acts like this. Punish the people with the most face, make them loose there face. Make emergency care free for all (even the ######ed up healthcare system of the USA has a rule like this to prevent these problems).

It the guys up there would be willing to change they could easily do it.

Just another ill informed rant.

No, these things are not easy to change, especially with governments that do not exactly have the welfare of the people as their main interest. The rescue system is improving, and has so in the more than 7 years i have had personal affiliation with them.

The girl that was taken to the private hospital was i believe the case in Phitsanulok recently and got impoverished with the hospital bills. Judging from the news - the entire fault there is with the hospital and not the rescue services who just delivered the injured to the nearest hospital. I have seen many cases similar to this - both hospitals trying to scam the injured, and also hospitals refusing admittance to injured.

The rescue foundations transport injured for free already, gasoline and equipment paid for by the volunteers personally (and not reimbursed by anyone). Hospitals though aren't free - but that is hardly the fault or responsibility of the rescue organisations.

[Dupont]

Thailand is a developing nation with many problems. he foundations are improving in many ways.

I'm reall getting tired of this there is no execuse for not acting in a way thailand could if they want to get out of this barbarian style of society. First of all punish them and punish them hard. 10 millions for an incident like the girl taken to an hospital for profit reasons. Show this guys they can't make money out of acts like this. Punish the people with the most face, make them loose there face. Make emergency care free for all (even the ######ed up healthcare system of the USA has a rule like this to prevent these problems).

It the guys up there would be willing to change they could easily do it.

Is this a Thai Visa fantasy Thailand scenario thread

Back to the real world, just who is going to do the punishing?

Could.... Should.... Would.... WON'T not in this lifetime.

[llothar]

The rescue foundations transport injured for free already, gasoline and equipment paid for by the volunteers personally (and not reimbursed by anyone). Hospitals though aren't free - but that is hardly the fault or responsibility of the rescue organisations.

I was talking about the hospitals. Make this head bonus that the hospitals pay rescue workers illegal and take huge fines from the hospital management.

This would (yeah yeah i'm on my better thailand dream) remove the cause and not the sympthom.

Then we still have cases like the english guy in pattaya who was refused from getting treatment, because he looked like like a low-so backpacker without money and died while his premium health insurance card was still untouched in this guest house room. But you change it step by step, but i don't really see a first step.

[ColPyat]

I was talking about the hospitals. Make this head bonus that the hospitals pay rescue workers illegal and take huge fines from the hospital management.

This would (yeah yeah i'm on my better thailand dream) remove the cause and not the sympthom....

Payments from hospitals to the rescue teams are already forbidden and illegal. The foundations get money from the hospitals, but that is not distributed to the volunteers.

It would be nice to inform before making judgments based on rumor.

[llothar]

The foundations get money from the hospitals,

Sorry are you so stupid that you really think this makes a difference?

And are you so so blind to not see the reality?

[TAWP]

I thought bribes was illegal too.

Therefor it mustn't exist in Thailand.

[sriracha john]

...Unfortunately it is not very simple...

and what was the excuse used at the time of the pre-coup referenced thread?

[sriracha john]

It's there an overuse of the word 'heroism'? If your doing your job, be it drag dead bodies out of cars, guard a bank, patroll an armybase or sing karaoke, your not a hero. You are doing your job. Heroism is performing an act that goes above and beyond what is expected of you.

Would shooting a firearm at a rival gang......... errr, ambulance crew to avenge the attack on one of your own gang... errr, ambulance crew, be considered going above and beyond the call of duty? Surely, the normal duties of providing EMT services would not extend to such level of involvement and only the really heroic would commit themselves to such level of bravery.

[ColPyat]

The foundations get money from the hospitals,

Sorry are you so stupid that you really think this makes a difference?

And are you so so blind to not see the reality?

I have seen "the reality" for several years, my flaming friend, while working with the rescue volunteers.

It makes a bloody difference, and you are the one with intellectual challenges not to see that. The foundations here in Bangkok are massive organisations - the Por Teck Tueng, for example, has their own hospital, desaster relieve operations, high tech equipment. They support affiliated upcountry foundations, and have large poverty programs.

The moneys received from the hospitals, all according to law, are a tiny percentage of their budget. They are supported massively by donations from some of the richest Thai Chinese business clans, their festivals do get attended by the highest religious authorities, even the palace sends representatives, or even members of the Royal family.

Anyone who thinks that these foundations are nothing but a bunch of thugs has his head in a very dark place, and should start informing himself. These foundations have a established place in Thai society. But naturally - there is corruption and ineptitude, as everywhere here. Name me one institution here that is free from this.

[ColPyat]

Name me one institution here that is free from this.

This is the same wrong excuse that i'm not accepting anymore, like your previous excuse that this is a developing country.

I don't want to see plans and i don't want to see excuses i only care about results. And the result of the current situation is

that this is happing everywhere and everytime. Only the most serious events make it into the news.

You could be a pround member of the goverment. From there you also only gets promises and stories how

great this society is - being proud is the first requirement of an "Untertan" (don't know how to translate this world in english).

And for > 80% the situation is as bad as before.

That the 21th richest economy in the world is not having an public financed and organized unique 24 hour emergency system

is so terrible ancient and barbaric society. Oh yes, maybe it is because this would cost money and this would take money from

the high society. (Even the USA - the most anti communist society on earth - is having a state run emergency system).

Not charity where even the biggest moron who's only success in life was to take over the family business from his parents

can gain face, no just good old enforced tax money. It's not charity its your responsibility.

Well, don't accept it if you don't want to, but fact is that Thailand is a developing nation with many problems, and that should explain conditions.

What is the aim of your rant? Do you make the foundations responsible for the fact that Thailand has no functioning state run EMS system?

Where have i said that i am a "proud member of the government", and show "how great this society is"? No on both points.

Your rants here are a bit confused and disordered. Please start bringing your thoughts in order before posting.

These foundations are the only functioning EMS system in Thailand. Live with it.

[meom]

For example in Bangkok are there only the two rescue foundations mentioned that attend to emergencies or is there also something operated by the government?

[ColPyat]

For example in Bangkok are there only the two rescue foundations mentioned that attend to emergencies or is there also something operated by the government?

There is in some areas, and it doesn't work.

In most districts i am familiar with they never come, and in one district i know very well they cause many problems. For example, in one case they came very late, have not allowed the earlier arrived Por Teck Tueng volonteers to bring the injured to the hospital, resulting in the death of the injured in the public hospital they have sent the injured in, which has also refused emergency treatment because the injured's relatives could not be found for some signatures. While the Por Teck Tueng volonteers were standing around, the bystanders were increasingly angry because nobody was allowed to take the injured away.

They only send the injured to the local public hospital, and not to the hospital at choice, because they directly receive money from the hospital per injured.

In another case i was present their late coming has even caused a large fight between two different foundation crews.

Several members of the government organized crew there have been thrown out of the other foundation crews previously because of misconduct.

Edited September 17, 2007 by ColPyat

[meom]

Thanks for your reply CP. I've never had any serious accident in LOS but if it happened I guess I wouldn't care by whom and how I was delivered to the hospital (or morgue) as long as I get there in time (except for the morgue; time don't matter anymore then) to fix something.

Seems to me in general they're doing a good job.

Edited September 17, 2007 by meom

[ColPyat]

Thanks for your reply CP. I've never had any serious accident in LOS but if it happened I guess I wouldn't care by whom and how I was delivered to the hospital (or morgue) as I long got there in time (except for the morgue; time don't matter anymore then) to fix something.

Seems to me in general they're doing a good job.

Thanks, i think so too, in general.

They are the best we got here. Unfortunately, i have to add. There is much to criticize, no argument with that. But a lot of that is not entirely their fault, or not their fault at all. What i have seen though in the many years is that they do gradually improve. But they are part of Thai society. This society is dysfunctional, and naturally these foundations as part of the society here, are affected and handicapped by this sad state of affairs here.

[meom]

Thanks for your reply CP. I've never had any serious accident in LOS but if it happened I guess I wouldn't care by whom and how I was delivered to the hospital (or morgue) as I long got there in time (except for the morgue; time don't matter anymore then) to fix something.

Seems to me in general they're doing a good job.

Thanks, i think so too, in general.

They are the best we got here. Unfortunately, i have to add. There is much to criticize, no argument with that. But a lot of that is not entirely their fault, or not their fault at all. What i have seen though in the many years is that they do gradually improve. But they are part of Thai society. This society is dysfunctional, and naturally these foundations as part of the society here, are affected and handicapped by this sad state of affairs here.

In a way I agree although I would not call Thai society dysfunctional; maybe in comparison to other societies but I think Thai society in itself functions quite well in its own right and as such will find its own way to improve without comparison to other societies.

Anyway getting off topic now

[ColPyat]

In a way I agree although I would not call Thai society dysfunctional; maybe in comparison to other societies but I think Thai society in itself functions quite well in its own right and as such will find its own way to improve without comparison to other societies.

Anyway getting off topic now

Obviously the exact state of dysfunctionality is debatable.

For me, the rescue foundations, and the areas they work in are a very good reflection of Thai society. With and through them you get to see a lot of what is usually hidden from view - the crime, the violence, the corruption, the desperation. You get into the houses of the poor, but also of the rich and mighty (they also kill themselves and have the occasional murder). You get insides to the police and many other institutions. You see the patronage system at work on many levels.

Of course you see a lot of good things as well, such as individual attempts to improve society. And you see the compromises one has to make while trying to improve the situation.

[TAWP]

CP wrote: "because they directly receive money from the hospital per injured."

No-one sees a problem with this?

And btw, I fail to see how being upset with something bad is slagging off on Thailand. If I or, heaven forbid, my son or anyone else in my family gets hurt in an accident I want the care to be topnotch and professional. Being dragged from a wreck without any medical supervision and then tossed in the back of a lorry is the opposite of this. Then I rather people would just hail down a taxi and get me to the hospital that way. Would probably be more comfortable...

You should be upset with those that think everything is fine and nothing needs to be changed.

[Prakanong]

Thailand is a developing nation with many problems. he foundations are improving in many ways.

I'm reall getting tired of this there is no execuse for not acting in a way thailand could if they want to get out of this barbarian style of society. First of all punish them and punish them hard. 10 millions for an incident like the girl taken to an hospital for profit reasons. Show this guys they can't make money out of acts like this. Punish the people with the most face, make them loose there face. Make emergency care free for all (even the ######ed up healthcare system of the USA has a rule like this to prevent these problems).

It the guys up there would be willing to change they could easily do it.

Just another ill informed rant.

No, these things are not easy to change, especially with governments that do not exactly have the welfare of the people as their main interest. The rescue system is improving, and has so in the more than 7 years i have had personal affiliation with them.

The girl that was taken to the private hospital was i believe the case in Phitsanulok recently and got impoverished with the hospital bills. Judging from the news - the entire fault there is with the hospital and not the rescue services who just delivered the injured to the nearest hospital. I have seen many cases similar to this - both hospitals trying to scam the injured, and also hospitals refusing admittance to injured.

The rescue foundations transport injured for free already, gasoline and equipment paid for by the volunteers personally (and not reimbursed by anyone). Hospitals though aren't free - but that is hardly the fault or responsibility of the rescue organisations.

According to the report I read they did not take her to the nearest hospital which was a govt. one but to the private hospital further away.

Maybe the private hospital offers something for rescue workers bringing them customers?

[Mid]

no maybe's ,

spotters fee's are paid .

[ColPyat]

According to the report I read they did not take her to the nearest hospital which was a govt. one but to the private hospital further away.

Maybe the private hospital offers something for rescue workers bringing them customers?

Yes, maybe. These things happen.

But maybe it was one of the other reasons i have listed.

[ColPyat]

no maybe's ,

spotters fee's are paid .

Some hospitals do that, and some crews take advantage of it.

But by far not all, and it would be a mistake to generalize without having proof.

The crews i am working with send the injured to the most suitable hospital, which generally is the hospital the injured is insured in (if not too far), the nearest public hospital, but also trying to avoid the hospitals that are known to blackmail injured such as happened in the OP.

[ColPyat]

CP wrote: "because they directly receive money from the hospital per injured."

No-one sees a problem with this?

And btw, I fail to see how being upset with something bad is slagging off on Thailand. If I or, heaven forbid, my son or anyone else in my family gets hurt in an accident I want the care to be topnotch and professional. Being dragged from a wreck without any medical supervision and then tossed in the back of a lorry is the opposite of this. Then I rather people would just hail down a taxi and get me to the hospital that way. Would probably be more comfortable...

You should be upset with those that think everything is fine and nothing needs to be changed.

Of course you want top notch care. But you won't get that in Thailand. That is one of the downsides of living in a country with only a very rudimentary social security net, in which the only functioning EMS system are these private Thai Chinese foundations.

These volunteers do improve though. More and more of them have now basic EMS equipment such as spinal boards, and air supports for fractures, and basic medicine packs (all paid for by the volunteers themselves, and not cheap). Their EMS training is improving as well. You would be much worse off in a taxi.

Edited September 18, 2007 by ColPyat

[Tony Clifton]

Colpyat,

can you explain the proliferation of yellow rescue stickers on vehicles?

The sticker is a man seen from behind in yellow coveralls carrying an injured or dead girl in a way that would injure a person even further if not dead (I know, it's just a sticker but to me it's quite representative of an ailing system).

I've seen trucks carrying anything from dead fish to scrap metal and they have that sticker on.

Are those stickers handed out by officials or can they be bought at the local market by anyone wanting to be a hero?

Does the sticker make the vehicle an ambulance or it's driver a rescue worker?

Are there as many people driving around with that sticker on as there are ordinary civilians wearing jackets, caps and t-shirts with POLICE on them?

[ColPyat]

Colpyat,

can you explain the proliferation of yellow rescue stickers on vehicles?

The sticker is a man seen from behind in yellow coveralls carrying an injured or dead girl in a way that would injure a person even further if not dead (I know, it's just a sticker but to me it's quite representative of an ailing system).

I've seen trucks carrying anything from dead fish to scrap metal and they have that sticker on.

Are those stickers handed out by officials or can they be bought at the local market by anyone wanting to be a hero?

Does the sticker make the vehicle an ambulance or it's driver a rescue worker?

Are there as many people driving around with that sticker on as there are ordinary civilians wearing jackets, caps and t-shirts with POLICE on them?

It's a bit of a fashion - the mandate of coolness.

It's not an officially recognized sticker of the foundations. Many members have those stickers on their cars, but i guess, judging from the amount of the stickers seen, also many normal folks have it on because it is cool.

I don't know if these particular stickers are for sale, but many of those stickers are self made. In the many empty hours waiting for something to happen one or the other creative guy on a team is making stickers for himself and his mates.

The officially recognized stickers are the names and signs of the foundations, and the radio call numbers. These ones are not supposed to be on non member's and unregistered vehicles (but of course this is not followed often, and does lead to internal conflicts).

But, the cars of the volunteers are their own private cars. Most of them do not have the money to have completely separate cars only used for their rescue activities, and have to use these trucks also for their professional lives. Their trucks are a source of pride - they constantly better their stickers, tune them, spend lots of money to improve this and the other bit on them. Hours of debate where to source better alarm lights, new horns, get better radios and antennas. Don't mock their cars. There are increasingly enforced rules concerning the trucks, and the equipment they are supposed to have. So, they should have a covered back.

Problem though is, of course, that it all comes out of the pockets of the volunteers themselves, and making money is not that easy at times. So, they have to make do with what they have.

Unfortunately the wildly spread rumors have direct affects on the lack of equipment and quality of care. A while ago I have tried to get some funding for friends of mine by approaching companies asking them for donations in form of equipment, etc (not cash!).

Due to the bad reputation of the foundations these companies were not interested. The point that this is the only functioning system in existence, and should therefore be improved, did not make any impression.

We can go on and on about what is wrong. The problem though is that presently there just is no alternative, and neither is there much political will by any government to improve much. It's down to private engagement, both by the volunteers and the general public. If anybody who complains about the system as it is would make a bit of an effort to improve, be it by personal engagement or by equipment donations - we would have a much better EMS system here. But only complaining and spreading of rumors does not help - it makes things worse.

[TAWP]

I wouldn't donate, I would vote for a complete overhaul of the system from the ground up. As with a lot of things here. Sorry to disappoint you.

[ColPyat]

I wouldn't donate, I would vote for a complete overhaul of the system from the ground up. As with a lot of things here. Sorry to disappoint you.

Yeah, well, good luck with that.

Lets be realistic - vote as much as you want - it won't happen. And instead of getting better care, which is your point as i understand, you will be stuck in a purely academic what if debate which changes nothing at all.

[TAWP]

Much like we are now since you yourself said no-one wanted it to improve...

[ColPyat]

Much like we are now since you yourself said no-one wanted it to improve...

Yes, very true.

The only difference is that you (the "libertarian") are relying on the government, while i (the "social democrat" who favors an increased role of the government in social security) am realist enough to understand that private engagement of concerned individuals is presently the much quicker way to improve than waiting for a completely disinterested government.

Personally, as long as you refuse to engage yourself in any form, you have no right to complain, especially in light of your often stated political conviction - being a libertarian - which philosophy is individual liberties and individual responsibilities as opposed to a powerful government.

You want a better system - then do something about it other than just complaining. There is a lot you personally could do other than waiting for a response by the government. Your attitude is part of the problem - and not part of the solution.

[TAWP]

You are confused again since I haven't said the government should run this. Infact, if you really wanted to know, it would be handled with contracts against the state that are negatiated and can be canceled if improper things happend, like patients getting robbed.

You say that I'm a part of the system? You better drive yourself to the emergency room, you must have hit your head.

Ps. As a non-citiscen I'm not ALLOWED to vote or work with anything regarding politics here. Ds.