Rescuers Seek Rescue From Other Rescuers

[ColPyat]

You are confused again since I haven't said the government should run this. Infact, if you really wanted to know, it would be handled with contracts against the state that are negatiated and can be canceled if improper things happend, like patients getting robbed.

You say that I'm a part of the system? You better drive yourself to the emergency room, you must have hit your head.

Ps. As a non-citiscen I'm not ALLOWED to vote or work with anything regarding politics here. Ds.

No, i said that your attitude is part of the problem.

As a non-citizen you are allowed to work if you have a work permit. You are just not allowed to stand for political office, but if you are qualified you can be an academic, an adviser, a consultant, a journalist, etc.

You are also allowed to make donations, even if you don't have a work permit. And maybe slightly in conflict with an anal interpretation of the law - you can without any problems become a volunteer yourself, as one of the board members here is, and even getting rather famous for it.

What you come up with is what is considered an excuse (and a lame one as well), and not an explanation, for not doing something.

Anyhow - when improper things happen, complaints are made, and convictions happen, then the responsible volunteers are sent to prison already now.

What you described is reality - these foundations have contracts with the state, have legally defined areas of responsibility, and have to supply paperwork.

What do you think is going on here? That they are just a bunch of thugs?

Again - some of these foundations are huge, and their social engagement covers many areas, not just the rescue. They work together with the authorities.

Edited September 18, 2007 by ColPyat

[TAWP]

Clearly the things I described around taking place as the reported events haven't lead to a single canceled contract.

What you have presented is excuses and personal attacks. As per usual.

[ColPyat]

Clearly the things I described around taking place as the reported events haven't lead to a single canceled contract.

What you have presented is excuses and personal attacks. As per usual.

They have though resulted in many volunteers being kicked out of the foundations, also being prosecuted and convicted.

You want to cancel the whole contract. Well, great, who is then going to pick up the injured? Such a system is not built in a day.

The problem is that you have cornered yourself into a completely unrealistic what if scenario out of which you come with not very informed comments, and get cranky when this is exposed.

Again - i do not deny that there are many faults with the system. Nobody does. But there is no existing alternative. So - we have to live with it, and the only thing we can do is improve upon what there is.

[TAWP]

Cornered?

Please, your strawman arguments are tiresome and inane.

And your argument that there isn't an existing alternative is uninformed and illogical. There is always an alternative. The hard part is getting them implemented. Or the current setup properly enforced.

As always with debates where you are involved it always ends up at this level. Why do you think this is?

I know, it's everyone else's faults.

[ColPyat]

Cornered?

Please, your strawman arguments are tiresome and inane.

And your argument that there isn't an existing alternative is uninformed and illogical. There is always an alternative. The hard part is getting them implemented. Or the current setup properly enforced.

As always with debates where you are involved it always ends up at this level. Why do you think this is?

I know, it's everyone else's faults.

Alright, and instead of staying with the topic we have to disintegrate into completely off topic personalization of the discussion.

The current set up is as well enforced as possible in Thailand. This is not the west - this is a developing nation with huge problems. Why do you expect these foundations to run as well as in the west, when there is no part of Thailand that is running any better?

Now, then, tell us the alternative to the long established foundations? Who else has the equipment, the infrastructure, the knowledge, the personnel, the funding, the training, and the here in Thailand all important contacts? What then is the exact realistic alternative to the foundations?

What about a positive contribution to the topic now, and not endless moaning and complaining about something you have obviously no direct knowledge about?

Edited September 18, 2007 by ColPyat

[sriracha john]

making more converts I see....

Rather than throwing donation money blindly at these foundations, how about they do something to clean themselves up?

What are the directors doing to control their own organizations? They want an improved public image? Which will lead to these donations... then the general public needs to think that something is being done to change those areas that need to be changed and a tremendous amount of that can all be done internally.

Doing nothing until raising it to the level that the police need to be called in after an exchange of gunfire does little to boost confidence in people looking to donate to worthy causes.

In the situation described in the OP, where were the supervisors and senior personnel? Will all those involved be identified and fired? Surely this can be done at the organizational level, even without the involvement of the police, who also, by the way need to seek out these criminals and have them prosecuted...aided by the organizations themselves who should cooperate fully and can easily identify them. To not do so is gang-mentally... and thus their gang-like impression held by the public is reinforced by their gang-like behavior.

The organizations themselves have to insist on only maintaining the highest level of personnel.

Failing that, the general lack of trust by the public persists, as demonstrated here by the vast majority of Thais ignoring the foundation donation seeker that makes frequent rounds soliciting funds.

It's the general public's way of telling these foundations to clean up their act.

Edited September 18, 2007 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

The organizations themselves have to insist on only maintaining the highest level of personnel.

Failing that, the general lack of trust by the public persists, as demonstrated here by the vast majority of Thais ignoring the foundation donation seeker that makes frequent rounds soliciting funds.

It's the general public's way of telling these foundations to clean up their act.

Well, yes, and a lot of what you describe is done internally on a regular base. Just because it is not in the news, does not mean that they do not have internal disciplinary actions. Crews get dissolved, members do get the boot.

But there are limits, the same limits that you can find here in any organizational structure here in Thailand. Root cause is the power of the informal networks and influence over due process.

Basic fact though is that in the last 15 years or so the foundations have cleaned up much of their act. !3 years or so ago here in Bangkok clearly defined areas and duty shifts have been introduced, which led to the ceasing of the major hostilities between the two biggest foundations here - Por teck Tueng and Ruamkatanyu. There are still conflicts, especially in the suburbs, between the Bangkok foundations and the smaller upcountry outfits (as seen in the OP), and occasionally there are territorial disputes between neighboring crews of the same foundation.

The training of the volunteers has improved, and so has their equipment.

And yes, there is still much to be done, but many things are very difficult to change. When the whole society has such a huge informal power network and corruption - you simply cannot expect the rescue foundations to be free of that.

And, as i have already posted a year ago - the so called foundations making donation seeking rounds are fake outfits. They are not legitimate rescue organisations. You cannot blame the established foundations though for those fake outfits - there you have to blame the law enforcement and the parts of the civil service that cover and protect those outfits through the endemic system of corruption and patronage.

Por Teck Tueng volonteers (and Ruamkatanyu, i believe as well) are not allowed to solicit for donations. People who want to donate can come to their head quarters and make donations there (and if you make friends with the local team donations in form of equipment might be accepted, not cash though). If you see them soliciting for donations - you can report them to their headquarters, and there will be action taken as this is against the rules.

[gbt71fa]

The old tirades against rescue foundations and their volonteers ...

Nobody says that all is in order, and that there is not much to be improved upon, but these foundations are the only functioning rescue system in Thailand. The irony here especially is, that while you rant against them, these volunteers have been busy last night in Phuket getting injured and dead passengers out of the airplane catastrophe.

These volunteers do not get paid, often have to buy their own equipment themselves, and often risk their lives trying to help.

..........................and taking pictures of the dead, charred bodies to sell them to newspapers...yep, real angels of mercy they is....

[Tony Clifton]

Isn't it also a great setup for money laundering since they only run on donations?

[meom]

In theory maybe but then you have to look how they spend their donations.

[ColPyat]

Isn't it also a great setup for money laundering since they only run on donations?

I don't think so.

These foundations are genuine organisations with a long tradition and very religious backgrounds. For money laundering there are far better options available.

Their main festivals are the grave yard cleaning festivals which happen every 15 or twenty years. The last major one of the Por Teck Tueng (Thailand's oldest and biggest foundation) about two or three years ago had members of the absolute elite of Thailand attending, including a Privy Council member as palace representative, a representative of the Supreme patriarch (who was too ill to attend in person), and the heads of the most powerful Thai Chinese families (which are usually never seen in public).

I describe that just to show that these foundations are not just a few thugs on the road, as is so widely and entirely mistakenly assumed. These foundations have a very established place in most levels of Thai society, including the very top.

[sriracha john]

and yet their reputation remains mired in mud....

[Plus]

Their main festivals are the grave yard cleaning festivals which happen every 15 or twenty years.

Twenty years between their "main" festivals? Wow, that's quite a wait.

>>>

As desribed by Colpyat, these people are volunteers who spend their own money on buying and maintaining their own trucks, and they buy their own radios and perform these services in their own, private time. They are driven by desire to help people in distress and have some religious reasons, too. So far it's all good.

But then, in real life, when at the accident site they meet volunteers from other groups there's a good chance of a fight over accident victims. Sometimes they fight with sticks, sometimes they carry guns. They could also give a chase to rival resquers and shoot at the truck carrying an injured person, too.

You need a willing suspension of disbelief to accept that kickbacks from hospitals and a chance to pocket injured's personal possessions are not their main motivators.

>>>>

Even Colpyat admits that they have a bad reputation. Where did it come from? Nasty rumors spread by rival gangs? Or is it a feedback from accident victims themselves?

>>>>

The stickers are everywhere, to me they look like a lion taking away his share. "This woman is MINE, her life belongs to ME now". Sure lots of people think it's a cool idea. You don't see stickers with children in them. They won't sell.

[ColPyat]

...Even Colpyat admits that they have a bad reputation. Where did it come from?...

The bad reputation comes mostly from the past, where the fights between the two main Bangkok based organizations were really out of hand. That was a time when there were no real territorial boundaries, and no duty shifts. That changed though bout 13 years or so ago. Clear areas of responsibility were created, and the two foundations have a daily shift rotation now. The fights between the two main organisations have ceased.

There are a lot of exagerated rumors around, such as the thefts. They do happen, but they are rare, and when found out will be harshly punished. Many thefts though happen before the rescue arrives. In the areas i am familiar with there are sois where the people living there are known to rob accident victims. Thefts also happen in the hospitals.

Another rumor is that rescue volunteers would kill victims of accidents in the cars. That is just pure fantasy.

There is not a "good chance" that there is a fight developing at an accident scene. There is a small, tiny, chance. It depends on the area. The southern part of Bangkok, Thonburi, and the suburbs have more problems, but in the years i have been following the whole thing, with literally thousands of accident and crime scenes, i remember being present at one fight when the victim was still on the road, and maybe a dozen fights that happened after the victim was delivered already.

Before making allegations about the motivation of these volunteers i would suggest gathering some personal experience with the different crews. It is not too difficult to ride with them. Yes, of course, there are rotten apples, nobody does deny that. Where is no corruption here in Thailand?

These wide sweeping statements about their financial motivations are wrong and exaggerated. Most volunteers are not in it for the money (and there are far safer and legal ways to make money while in that strange world than doing illegal and highly risky things).

Most young volunteers are starting because it is simply cool and exiting. Many have a very strong sense of trying to help the community. There are others who have done something wrong in their lives, and want to balance the karmic sheet.

There are many regular festivals every year, the absolute highlights are the very rare graveyard cleaning festivals in their graveyards for unclaimed corpses, including a mass funeral for the bones of the dead. I have been at many of them all over Thailand. The large one of the Por Teck Tueng was an absolute highlight - one of the most impressive religious festivals i have seen in twenty years in Asia (and that includes some very obscure festivals in India and Tibet which i have attended).

In other such upcountry festivals i have seen spirit expulsion ceremonies of haunted grounds, spoken with Thai Chinese spirit mediums. I have always been welcomed in the most polite and friendly way.

This is living culture and tradition.

These foundations are much more than what rumor suggests. I wish people would go out and inform themselves before mocking something they clearly have never bothered to find out much about, and just follow nasty uninformed rumormongering.

With that attitude you people miss out on something very special this country has to offer.

[canadiangirl]

With that attitude you people miss out on something very special this country has to offer.

Wow, ColPyat --- really good post!

[Plus]

I always try to make way for these rescue trucks even in heavy traffic, now I know that they carry guns and are ready to use them if you get in their way.

Or is ok for them to shoot each other as long as they don't shoot victims and bystanders?

That must have been a sight - two rescue trucks with full lights and sirens chasing and shooting at each other at neck breaking speeds in the middle of the night.

Do you wanna be a victim ready to be rescued by either of these trucks?

I fully realise that they are the only choice for accident victims, but that doesn't excuse them, does it?

[ColPyat]

I always try to make way for these rescue trucks even in heavy traffic, now I know that they carry guns and are ready to use them if you get in their way.

Or is ok for them to shoot each other as long as they don't shoot victims and bystanders?

That must have been a sight - two rescue trucks with full lights and sirens chasing and shooting at each other at neck breaking speeds in the middle of the night.

Do you wanna be a victim ready to be rescued by either of these trucks?

I fully realise that they are the only choice for accident victims, but that doesn't excuse them, does it?

Usually you should make way for the trucks because they transport injured to the hospital.

And as to guns here in Thailand - you should always assume that anybody has a gun in their car - because many have.

The rest of your post is a bit incoherent, sorry, i don't understand what point you are trying to make.

[peterpanner]

I had the "chance" to be on such a truck after a motorbike accident. They are a lot more like animal transportation utility trucks than an actual ambulance. I passed out a few times but I believe to remember that they got me to a hospital pretty fast. Better than nothing when you are in need.

Not really related - many people came to try and help me here in Bkk. I had a really bad car accident in a European capital, a thousand people gathered to see me bleeding like a slaughtered pig but not one actually did anything.

[OlRedEyes]

And another rant...

You made the developing not 3rd world country point earlier

The 'foundations' is part of Thai society, a product thereof, cannot be divorced therefrom. Innit.

Sure you will have something outstanding to say. You seem to take all this very personally....

[ColPyat]

Sure you will have something outstanding to say. You seem to take all this very personally....

Yes, i do take this personally. If you would have spent years of your life studying and working with these rescue volunteers, and would have to read insulting rumor mongering by people who have never spent any time with them - then i guess you would feel similar.

And yes, i find it insulting after making efforts here trying to answer questions and to communicate some of what i have learned, just to be shot down by off topic rants and insulting comments, which often are more guided by personal animosities than any reasoning based on fact.

Yes, i am aware that anybody can post here, but it does lower the standard when rumor dominates the debate.

Edited September 19, 2007 by ColPyat

[Plus]

Shoot out between two rescue teams is not a rumor. Maybe they are nice people in your view, but I wouldn't be so proud of having freinds who always carry guns and occasionally shoot at rival trucks. This is a stuff for B-movies about gang culture, not emergency services.

On a side note. Once Colpyat complained that people here do no appreciate his "inside" information. In this case he acts and talks like an official spokesman for those goons. If you provide "insider" information you should at least pretend that you are impartial. Any news source that is so clearly slanted should expect to be shot down.

[ColPyat]

Shoot out between two rescue teams is not a rumor. Maybe they are nice people in your view, but I wouldn't be so proud of having freinds who always carry guns and occasionally shoot at rival trucks. This is a stuff for B-movies about gang culture, not emergency services.

On a side note. Once Colpyat complained that people here do no appreciate his "inside" information. In this case he acts and talks like an official spokesman for those goons. If you provide "insider" information you should at least pretend that you are impartial. Any news source that is so clearly slanted should expect to be shot down.

A shootout between two suburban teams does not mean that all rescue teams are engaged in those activities. You cannot extrapolate from one incident to all rescue teams.

No, not all rescue teams carry guns, this is an unfounded assumption, and complete rubbish. A minority of rescue teams carry guns.

No, i am not a spokesperson for anybody, but i argue against such almost insane exaggerations and distortions of reality. In a previous post i have already described that in thousands of crime and accident scenes i have seen only one single fight between different teams while the injured was still present (and yes, this is a very bad incident), and not more than a dozen fights that happened after the injured was delivered.

Thousands of injured delivered without any misconduct against a dozen incidents of misconduct, and only one in which the injured was still present (and which was caused by conflicting orders and the late arrival of the government organized rescue crew that has not allowed to take the injured away from the accident scene, which led then to serious aggravation between bystanders and the rescue crews and the crews with each other).

In the year old thread i have described in detail the territory in which these volunteers have to work, and why a reputation of not taking shit is absolutely necessary. If they would not be feared, then they would simply not be able to get into some of the most dangerous areas of town to get injured out.

I personally have been at incidents when because of incomplete radio calls rescue crews arrived in the middle of large gang fights, and had to make their way out, i have seen incidents when people tried to stab them, throw stones and bottles, where even the cops had to leg it.

What do you think rescue in Bangkok is? Some sort of nicy-nicy-do-gooder activity?

No - it often means getting into and working in the worst and most violent areas of town, not knowing what to expect, dealing with some of the most brutal lowlifes imaginable, sometimes getting injured out when there is no police around, where only a reputation is what makes a difference between getting done in or not.

[TAWP]

I like how the rescue guy in the other thread was so proud over getting another guy so good in the head with a plank of wood in their fight.

I wonder if that guy needed to be rescued. if he did, would the first guy then have turned around and started hauling him into his truck since he 'was in his area'?

[ColPyat]

I wonder if that guy needed to be rescued. if he did, would the first guy then have turned around and started hauling him into his truck since he 'was in his area'?

Trying to be reasonable here.

There is more than just territorial pride in the importance of the area and its boundaries.

The rescue teams have to be responsible for the area the work in. They have to radio in when they start working, when they take a break, and when they go home. They have to radio in the incidents, and names and details of the people transported. What happens is their responsibility.

If a injured is picked up by a neighboring or fake crew, and anything untoward happens - the crew on duty in the area will be made responsible first. Sometime other volunteers, such as radio volunteers who are only there to radio in incidents, might pick up injured, even though they have not the proper training and permission to do so.

Many conflicts happen because of overzealous crews, fake crews, or crews that are in for they money "steal" injured from the areas of responsibility of a particular crew.

Mostly though neighboring crews do work together well, and help each other out.

I repeat that - the rescue teams of the proper foundations are not some thugs going wild. They are registered, they are known by the police and hospitals of their areas. They carry ID cards, and which injured they pick up at which incident at what time is documented in their headquarters, the police, and the hospitals. They work with the authorities within the law.

Yes, things do happen occasionally, some teams are using their position to do criminal things. You cannot expect that in a country like Thailand where corruption and abuse of power is endemic the rescue teams are entirely free of that. They are part of the society. They are no worse (and i would say far better) than many other organizations and institutions here.

[peterpanner]

I like how the rescue guy in the other thread was so proud over getting another guy so good in the head with a plank of wood in their fight.

I wonder if that guy needed to be rescued. if he did, would the first guy then have turned around and started hauling him into his truck since he 'was in his area'?

I couldn't help myself but really enjoy your post. Great question.

[Tony Clifton]

Talked with a friend here today and, locally, part of the problem has been solved with Por Tek Tung and one more foundation alternating every other day so that they never meet.

[ColPyat]

Talked with a friend here today and, locally, part of the problem has been solved with Por Tek Tung and one more foundation alternating every other day so that they never meet.

This has happened in Bangkok about 13 years ago with the Por Teck Tueng and the Ruamkatanyu. Nowadays they mostly work very well together, and in many areas they are now closed friends as well.

I don't know where you are located, but this is a step in the right direction. Development and improvements do take time.

Edited September 19, 2007 by ColPyat

[Plus]

Personally observed a dozen fistfights between "ambulance' crews? I don't remember when I last saw a fistfight myself. Why is it considered normal to wack eachother with wooden planks and brag about it in interviews? Some really ######ed up friends you have, Colpyat.

It requiers a willing suspension of disbelief (I like that phrase, Hillary Clinton used it recently).

[ColPyat]

Personally observed a dozen fistfights between "ambulance' crews? I don't remember when I last saw a fistfight myself. Why is it considered normal to wack eachother with wooden planks and brag about it in interviews? Some really ######ed up friends you have, Colpyat.

It requiers a willing suspension of disbelief (I like that phrase, Hillary Clinton used it recently).

To be honest - some of those fights were worse than just fistfights.

As to my friends - i chose not to cocoon myself into some sheltered existence in a fantasy land, lose touch with reality and theorize/moralize about things i do neither understand nor make any attempt to do so.

Reality is a complex thing, no absolutes but shades of grey - especially in a country like Thailand. It's easy to sit in suburbia and judge. Get personally involved things aren't that easy anymore. But no - you wouldn't dirty your fingers by getting involved.

[sbk]

Lets keep this a civil discussion, personal insults will not be tolerated.