Copyright Scam? Anyone Else Had This?

[wadsy]

My g/f owns a small internet cafe in Chiang Mai. Yesterday a mixture of 8-10 police and 'music company representatives' turned up unannounced demanding to go through all the PC's looking for Thai Music. This has happened to her before we were together and one time it cost her 10,000 and the next time they demanded 50,000. Both times and again yesterday, they dragged her (and our six year old daughter) down to the Police Station. She called me and I told her to not pay them anything and you will let the Court handle it. The police were actually very good about all this and took her aside in a locked room and said to her to not pay them and that to deny all the things that they were saying as well.

Anyway she got charged and fingerprinted and I had to go and bail her out. 30,000 baht later (which the police gave her a receipt for and told her that she will have it all returned when she goes to Court) and she was allowed to go but she told me that the music company pr*&ks were not happy one little bit!

Heres the thing though, she has a program on the PC's that ensures that when you switch the PC off or restart it, everything that is downloaded to it gets wiped and it starts again. She got this program because of the trouble before with these a#$holes. That would mean that someone has come into her cafe sometime yesterday morning and 'downloaded' music and then they have turned up and 'found' it yesterday afternoon. This is bs and she has to go to the police station next week and make a statement apparently.

Has anyone else on TV had any experience with this or can offer any advice other than talking to a lawyer which btw my g/f is doing this week. I can't understand how she can legally held accountable under copyright laws if she can show the Court that she has done all she can to ensure that illegal downloads do not happen i.e installed the memory wipe program. Its not as if she was getting any benefit or financial reward in any way.

Thanks in advance for any constructive replies..........

[cmsally]

Same scenario posted a few days ago in the Chiang Mai forum.

Here

[A_Traveller]

I'd noted that some newer net cafes {only use occasionally} have installed reboot and wipe between sessions which may be driven by this kind of action. Some Thai friends in this business have also recently installed such a process but didn't say explicitly why.

Regards

/edit recently//

Edited September 17, 2007 by A_Traveller

[intumult]

I had noticed last week that the local internet cafe I normally use has stopped people from using USB keys and similar devices so that you cannot writ your mails on your own computer and then upload them at the cafe.

Maybe this is in response to a similar action taken against theinternet cafe and certainly would appear to stop downloads as well as uploads except for those left on the hard drive.

[Galong]

I reckon fleecing the little guy is how they get their jollies... and money.

They should go down to the deep south and help out there... oh wait, they fight back.

[TheWalkingMan]

Going forward, please reboot after every session. These scammers are just looking for a payout.

TheWalkingMan

[terryp]

You can scream, shout go to lawyers etc etc it will do nothing as the fact is you (girlfriend or wife) have broken the intellectual property laws (this is a heavy fine)……Running any business anywhere in the World …Checking your responsibilities/requirements/licenses is your duty.

As the law states ignorance is not a defense as it’s your responsibility to check fully before doing anything…..the easy mai pen rai Thai way is nonsence

PRS have been going around Thailand for the past 8 years that I know of; and I don’t have a business

This may seem heavy handed hitting the small guy but just think how many small guys are in business in Thailand making a living from IP (intellectual property)…that’s a lot of Royalties due…Billions in fact

Try to settle out of court and buy the licence's required (not cheap also)

My reply might sound hard; but these people from PRS have serious power, because the music was downloaded onto a computer owned by your wife puts the problem fully in her hands…very unfair but these guys don’t care about who or why just that they found un-licensed music. it could be on anything not just the computer. Even an ipod or a burnt cd

Edited September 17, 2007 by terryp

[stumonster]

did they just go to one computer and "find" the infringing items ?

did she have a visit in the days before asking for a "licensing fee" ?

did they take the computer away ? as soon as it is powered on again it will re-image the hard drive to a blank windows installation . ( unless it is configured to use an image from the network )

maybe get and expert witness / computer science professor to come to court to ask them some technical questions.

[TheWalkingMan]

Just curious, does anyone have a document which states the penalties for having downloaded music on your internet cafe computer. From what I have read, the penalties seem to vary and I am wondering if there is a concrete set of rules for the penalties or is it a case of "shoot for the moon and work your way back."

Thanks,

TheWalkingMan

Edited September 17, 2007 by TheWalkingMan

[Cyberstar]

... these people from PRS have serious power...

What is PRS, please?

[A_Traveller]

... these people from PRS have serious power...

What is PRS, please?

Performing Rights Society. edit //Not sure that is the correct name for the Thai equivalent however.//

Regards

Edited September 17, 2007 by A_Traveller

[lazeeboy]

... these people from PRS have serious power...

What is PRS, please?

Performing Rights Society. edit //Not sure that is the correct name for the Thai equivalent however.//

Regards

so these people could go into any business ,look in there computer and find something ,theres not a computer on the planet that doesnt have something that is copied ,good racket to be in ...........

[technocracy]

You can scream, shout go to lawyers etc etc it will do nothing as the fact is you (girlfriend or wife) have broken the intellectual property laws (this is a heavy fine)……Running any business anywhere in the World …Checking your responsibilities/requirements/licenses is your duty.

As the law states ignorance is not a defense as it’s your responsibility to check fully before doing anything…..the easy mai pen rai Thai way is nonsence

PRS have been going around Thailand for the past 8 years that I know of; and I don’t have a business

This may seem heavy handed hitting the small guy but just think how many small guys are in business in Thailand making a living from IP (intellectual property)…that’s a lot of Royalties due…Billions in fact

Try to settle out of court and buy the licence's required (not cheap also)

My reply might sound hard; but these people from PRS have serious power, because the music was downloaded onto a computer owned by your wife puts the problem fully in her hands…very unfair but these guys don’t care about who or why just that they found un-licensed music. it could be on anything not just the computer. Even an ipod or a burnt cd

The PRS have absolutely nothing to do with copied or downloaded music and piracy - they are only interested in when the music used for a performance or broadcast etc. They have nothing to do with enforcing copyright.

In the UK you have MCPS - Mechanical Copyright Protection Service who basically is made up of a bunch of directors from major record labels. Who job it is to try and track down the pirates.

Maybe the PRS are going round Thailand - but more to do with music used in promotions and on TV etc. rather than internet cafes. I frequently hear music 'loaned' on Thai TV shows one not so long ago was using part of the James Bond theme!

[solo siam]

They did this at our local Apple store.

Apparently they normally send someone in earlier on in the day, who downloads music to the computers - then when they appear with the police later they're assured of getting some cash.

I'm not sure, but I think it's only Thai music they can do this with.

Either way the recording industry is getting on everybody's tits nowadays in just about all countries.

[A_Traveller]

PRS/MCPS in the UK, for example, is supposed to facilitate and secure royalties payments for musicians, composers etc., further I believe they provide a license for the public broadcasting of music. What appears to be happening here is that they are acting as pseudo-excise officers. Now, I was always under the impression, even here, that warrants were required for such activities, I may be in error. As I've said if a cafe feels at risk, add a process which deletes cache, downloads and reboots. In that situation even if something is found it would be a realistic defence to state that all reasonable steps had been taken.

It should be noted that the system here may be different, with split jurisdictions, one poster who could help for sure appears to be away presently.

Regards

/edit add emphasis//

Edited September 17, 2007 by A_Traveller

[A_Traveller]

Just to add to this, looks like the copyright body is MCT Music Copyright (Thailand) Limited tel: 66-2 2301049-50

Fax: 66-2 2031051 LINK Site in Thai Might be an idea to see what their position is on these actions.

HTH

Regards

//edit link//

Edited September 17, 2007 by A_Traveller

[wadsy]

You can scream, shout go to lawyers etc etc it will do nothing as the fact is you (girlfriend or wife) have broken the intellectual property laws (this is a heavy fine)……Running any business anywhere in the World …Checking your responsibilities/requirements/licenses is your duty.

As the law states ignorance is not a defense as it’s your responsibility to check fully before doing anything…..the easy mai pen rai Thai way is nonsence

PRS have been going around Thailand for the past 8 years that I know of; and I don’t have a business

This may seem heavy handed hitting the small guy but just think how many small guys are in business in Thailand making a living from IP (intellectual property)…that’s a lot of Royalties due…Billions in fact

Try to settle out of court and buy the licence's required (not cheap also)

My reply might sound hard; but these people from PRS have serious power, because the music was downloaded onto a computer owned by your wife puts the problem fully in her hands…very unfair but these guys don’t care about who or why just that they found un-licensed music. it could be on anything not just the computer. Even an ipod or a burnt cd

What a tosser!!! As I said in my OP, this has happened before and steps were taken by my g/f to ensure that the client computers are 'cleaned' at the end of each and every day by installing a program on every PC that wipes out any downloads that a customer may have done. In my opinion and others I have spoken to concerning this, (including a lawyer), she can show that she has taken resonable steps to negate the breaching of 'interllectual property laws' by installing this protection. And it is not a case of 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' as you so rightously pointed out, as she is fully aware of her responsilibites but you cannot protect yourself from MALICIOUS and ILLEGAL and FRAUDULENT ACTION ok?

If this is such as 'serious' concern why do they first demand extortionate amounts then gradually reduce this down? Another cafe owner in town on another recent post said they first demanded a 'fine' of 100,00 baht and then reduced this on negoiation to 25,000 baht!! This is crap and is, as I said, purely and simply nothing but FRAUD and BLACKMAIL.

[JetsetBkk]

This may seem heavy handed hitting the small guy but just think how many small guys are in business in Thailand making a living from IP (intellectual property)…that’s a lot of Royalties due…Billions in fact

Try to settle out of court and buy the licence's required (not cheap also)

What a tosser!!!

Hmm, I was going to be a bit more polite, but I think you got the message across!

It appears that the downloading is being done by these b@$t@rds so they know exactly which machine to go to and demand their hush money.

How about installing a keylogger and video surveillance? You might be able to show that it was the guy demanding the pay-off who planted the mp3's.

Edited September 17, 2007 by JetsetBkk

[wadsy]

did they just go to one computer and "find" the infringing items ?

did she have a visit in the days before asking for a "licensing fee" ?

did they take the computer away ? as soon as it is powered on again it will re-image the hard drive to a blank windows installation . ( unless it is configured to use an image from the network )

maybe get and expert witness / computer science professor to come to court to ask them some technical questions.

Yeah they took the computer away and as soon as it powered up again there will be no music on there. My g/f has to attend the police station next week to make a statement apparently and she will be taking a lawyer with her and asking them to power up the machine to look at the evidence again i.e. the files that were found.. It won't be there of course, showing the police this is exactly what the program was designed to do. They are nothing but rogues dressed up as semi-legitimate enforcers. My guess is that during that morning someone came in and put the Thai music on the pc and then they came in during the afternoon and 'found' the music. Yeah I think that getting a computer expert to Court will be the way to go.

[solo siam]

did they just go to one computer and "find" the infringing items ?

did she have a visit in the days before asking for a "licensing fee" ?

did they take the computer away ? as soon as it is powered on again it will re-image the hard drive to a blank windows installation . ( unless it is configured to use an image from the network )

maybe get and expert witness / computer science professor to come to court to ask them some technical questions.

Yeah they took the computer away and as soon as it powered up again there will be no music on there. My g/f has to attend the police station next week to make a statement apparently and she will be taking a lawyer with her and asking them to power up the machine to look at the evidence again i.e. the files that were found.. It won't be there of course, showing the police this is exactly what the program was designed to do. They are nothing but rogues dressed up as semi-legitimate enforcers. My guess is that during that morning someone came in and put the Thai music on the pc and then they came in during the afternoon and 'found' the music. Yeah I think that getting a computer expert to Court will be the way to go.

Does it wipe the days information on booting down or up?

[wadsy]

How about installing a keylogger and video surveillance? You might be able to show that it was the guy demanding the pay-off who planted the mp3's.

I think that might be an option. You're right, they are nothing but b@$t@rds.

[duchovny]

Hard to believe some of the naive people on here think this is actually legit.

This is a pure scam to extort internet shops and bars out of huge money. Add up all the internets and bars in Thailand that have forked out 30,000 baht. This is a major earner for the police and whoever else they are pretending to be.

I left Thailand and detracted my investments from there a year ago. It feels great to be out of there.

I originally moved to Thailand for a less stressful life but as you can see by reading this forum, that's hardly the case now.

Thailand is shooting itself in the foot to the advantage of its neighbours, especially Cambodia.

Okun Tran.

[Phil Conners]

You can scream, shout go to lawyers etc etc it will do nothing as the fact is you (girlfriend or wife) have broken the intellectual property laws (this is a heavy fine)……Running any business anywhere in the World …Checking your responsibilities/requirements/licenses is your duty.

As the law states ignorance is not a defense as it’s your responsibility to check fully before doing anything…..the easy mai pen rai Thai way is nonsence

PRS have been going around Thailand for the past 8 years that I know of; and I don’t have a business

This may seem heavy handed hitting the small guy but just think how many small guys are in business in Thailand making a living from IP (intellectual property)…that’s a lot of Royalties due…Billions in fact

Try to settle out of court and buy the licence's required (not cheap also)

My reply might sound hard; but these people from PRS have serious power, because the music was downloaded onto a computer owned by your wife puts the problem fully in her hands…very unfair but these guys don’t care about who or why just that they found un-licensed music. it could be on anything not just the computer. Even an ipod or a burnt cd

What a load of bull. They only care about THAI music. Any non-Thai music found is ignored. So much for intellectual property laws...

[Nickthegreek]

Hi,

Sorry to hear about this.I can give you some advice,as I currently own two internet cafes and this is what I do.

Firstly disconnect you usb ports,either in the Bios or physically from inside the case.

Secondaly download a free programme called win guard pro :http://www.winguardpro.com/

Thirdly only dont let your customers use the usb in your machines.scan the usb on your machine and then any folders downloaded may only be downloaded onto your shared doc folder.you can then see the files downloaded.

I hope this helps for the future I relise its maybe too late now.

I had heard of this problem and so far to date,its not been an issue for me..

Any futrher help please ask.

Nick

[elkangorito]

Hard to believe some of the naive people on here think this is actually legit.

This is a pure scam to extort internet shops and bars out of huge money. Add up all the internets and bars in Thailand that have forked out 30,000 baht. This is a major earner for the police and whoever else they are pretending to be.

I left Thailand and detracted my investments from there a year ago. It feels great to be out of there.

I originally moved to Thailand for a less stressful life but as you can see by reading this forum, that's hardly the case now.

Thailand is shooting itself in the foot to the advantage of its neighbours, especially Cambodia.

Okun Tran.

I must say that I agree with this.

A Thai friend of my'n has a restaurant (well established, 20 years) & has recently employed a live band (of which I am a part).

Not long ago, a representative of some sort of 'karaoke' music company, knocked on his door & asked to see some copyright permission for using the music (English & Thai). He admitted that he did not have any such right & he was given a period of time in which to pay a levy in order to allow him to utilise such music in his restaurant. I believe the annual fee was about 6 000 Baht (six thousand) or so. This fee covered ALL the music that he used.

Police do not knock on your door to solve copyright problems. It sounds like you have been 'set up' by a cafe user. I can imagine this; the user uploads music to your computer(s) & then informs the cops (who are in on this scam) to come & bust you. All parties involved then split the profits (fines).

Take it to court. Make those lying bastards pay!

Edited September 17, 2007 by elkangorito

[Cyberstar]

Police do not knock on your door to solve copyright problems.

Couldn't agree more than i do. Solving copyright problems isn't but business and belongs to regular office hours.

It sounds like you have been 'set up' by a cafe user. I can imagine this; the user uploads music to your computer(s) & then informs the cops (who are in on this scam) to come & bust you.

The phrase in bold is the real problem (for the targets of the scam as well as for Thailand and Thais to ever be considered a decent nation with decent natives.)

[dave111223]

Just follow the process along, i'm sure you will be asked repeated to "Just pay and get it over with", but i'm sure once the case gets closer and closer to actually going to court the paper work will all mysteriously "disappear".

The fact that she was fingerprinted and had to be bailed out is absolutely ludicrous.

[ZZZ]

I know that radio is a bit old fashion but is it legal to record Thai music from the radio/TV to mp3 files on your computer/ipod ??

As far as I know you could not play back these files at an entertainment venue but could you play Thai music from a radio in a bar??

It's all very confusing, there were no big issues with recording music to tape, as long as it was not used commercially.

[raslin]

What's the problem?

If the music on the radio is in copyright and you make a recording this is an infringement of the copyright. i.e. you have copied it.

Of course, it cannot be enforced if you only play it to yourself (who else knows?).

Play it to a friend and you have problems: copyright and performing right.

[ZZZ]

I did a search on the subject and according to relevant laws you are allowed to record anything, you have legally obtained, on your computer. The conditions are that it is for personal use and not to be used commercially or distributed.

You are allowed to record streaming audio from any web radio or FM radio card to mp3 files on your computer. You are also allowed to burn these to CD's or copy to an MP3 player for your own use.

Actually manufacturers of blank digital recording media and digital recording equipment have to pay a royalty fee of 2% on everything they manufacture, this is then distributed by the music industry.

If you buy blank CD or DVD and just record data on this you are being ripped of by the music industry as they are getting a cut of what you paid for the empty disk

Edited September 18, 2007 by ZZZ