Lease & Usufruct Providers

[Khun Bob]

Not really that much happenning on this thread - anyway the choices seem to be :

Sunbelt

IsaanLawyers

Silom Thai Lawyers (mentioned earlier in this thread)

SamuiForSale

HuaHin (not sure who)

Pattaya (one mentioned earlier in this thread, but there may be some more)

While this thread has not had that much comments, this may be indicative of the options available.

Seems that if there is any legal minded person who wants to setup a legal services firm n Thailand and provide good service for a reasonable price then they will do very well for them selves. (Wish I had a legal background...)

[ThaiLawOnline]

Seems that if there is any legal minded person who wants to setup a legal services firm n Thailand and provide good service for a reasonable price then they will do very well for them selves. (Wish I had a legal background...)

I don't know what this mean. But I am a registered lawyer from the Bar of Quebec, number 199862-5. I studied civil law which also applies to Thailand. But laws of every countries are different, this is why I work with Thai lawyers.

The problem is that if you say that you are a lawyer, people will tend to think you want to steal their money, ask high fees. And if you say that you have low fees, they will say that you are not a good lawyer.

I don't go in Phuket, rarely in BKK or Hua Hin, not work anymore in Pattaya and Chiangmai is far away. I love Isaan and work here. Now, any lease or usufruct contract can be sent by email. You will need witnesses and to register it.

This thread is going nowhere. If someone says they are lawyers, some people with throw rocks at them. If they say they are not lawyers, people will not believe them or trust them. This is not a flea market where you can get a template of a contract for 50 baht and change the name of the people to please everyone. Each case is different and I hope that people can see the differences between REAL lawyers, REAL law firms, brokers, lawyers to be, etc.

Let me remind you a FACT: Foreigners can't be lawyers since many years in Thailand. It's forbidden. (If I remember, since 1972). And do you see many big law firms advertising here? Tilleke Gibbins? Baker Mackenzie? No. Why, because they don't need and people are paying good money for them.

Isaan Lawyers is in-between. We need to advertise to survive because there are not so many foreigners in our Area. At the same time, we don't like it. But we need to be known and encourage clients to compare prices and services. That's the way it is. Unfortunately, law has become a business. When I was in Canada, I used to think it was an art....

[Bomonster]

Hi bob

I had a usufruct drawn up by sunbelt not that long ago on our property and they were very professional they tell you up front how much its going to cost. They keep you well informed by e-mail or in person I was very happy with there services.

regards

Scotsman

i was told by land office in pattaya that the gov had stopped doing the sittagapgintalordshevit in favour of a 30 year different version with both names you and wife going on the channot and in the gov computer ?

[Naam]

i was told by land office in pattaya that the gov had stopped doing the sittagapgintalordshevit in favour of a 30 year different version with both names you and wife going on the channot and in the gov computer ?

that's not a usufruct but just an ordinary lease.

[Bomonster]

i was told by land office in pattaya that the gov had stopped doing the sittagapgintalordshevit in favour of a 30 year different version with both names you and wife going on the channot and in the gov computer ?

that's not a usufruct but just an ordinary lease.

The land office in jomtiem refused point blank and when challanged they said this is the new legistlation, i showed them a copy of a usufruct sent to me by a member, they told me yes that was ok in 2548 not now, new gov guidelines.

[Khun Bob]

If this is so then I'm not surprised, but it will be a big pain as usufructs have such a significant advantage over leases.

Still I guess that Pattaya and Bangkok is where most foreigners would be doing usufructs.

I wonder if Sunbelt or IsaanLawyers would care to comment on this ?

Seems funny that it may be halted in Pattaya, where as in other places the land office staff, have never heard of a usufruct !

Also, I wonder Bomonster if this happenned as I seem to recall that you wanted to do a usufruct your self and not use legal assistance (correct me if I'm wrong)

i was told by land office in pattaya that the gov had stopped doing the sittagapgintalordshevit in favour of a 30 year different version with both names you and wife going on the channot and in the gov computer ?

that's not a usufruct but just an ordinary lease.

The land office in jomtiem refused point blank and when challanged they said this is the new legistlation, i showed them a copy of a usufruct sent to me by a member, they told me yes that was ok in 2548 not now, new gov guidelines.

Edited October 29, 2007 by Khun Bob

[Naam]

i was told by land office in pattaya that the gov had stopped doing the sittagapgintalordshevit in favour of a 30 year different version with both names you and wife going on the channot and in the gov computer ?

that's not a usufruct but just an ordinary lease.

The land office in jomtiem refused point blank and when challanged they said this is the new legistlation, i showed them a copy of a usufruct sent to me by a member, they told me yes that was ok in 2548 not now, new gov guidelines.

when i enquired about a year ago i was told that Pattaya land office was (unlike before) willing to accept a usufruct with BOTH names (husband and wife). now they turned 180 degrees and insist on a 30 year lease. well... what can i say besides "Amazing Thailand"

[Bomonster]

<br />If this is so then I'm not surprised, but it will be a big pain as usufructs have such a significant advantage over leases.<br /><br />Still I guess that Pattaya and Bangkok is where most foreigners would be doing usufructs.<br /><br />I wonder if Sunbelt or IsaanLawyers would care to comment on this ?<br /><br />Seems funny that it may be halted in Pattaya, where as in other places the land office staff, have never heard of a usufruct !<br /><br />Also, I wonder Bomonster if this happenned as I seem to recall that you wanted to do a usufruct your self and not use legal assistance (correct me if I'm wrong)<br /><br />

i was told by land office in pattaya that the gov had stopped doing the sittagapgintalordshevit in favour of a 30 year different version with both names you and wife going on the channot and in the gov computer ?

<br />that's not a usufruct but just an ordinary lease.<br />

<br /><br />The land office in jomtiem refused point blank and when challanged they said this is the new legistlation, i showed them a copy of a usufruct sent to me by a member, they told me yes that was ok in 2548 not now, new gov guidelines.<br />

<br />

<br /><br /><br />

yes you are correct re the usufruct. I was advised re a member that the need for a lawyer was not necessary?I have heard so many cases of sh*t law advice and my first experience of a thai lawyer 2 year ago was poor, plus the lawyer from my selling agent has just scarperd with clients money, not mine thank god.

I also the next day having reg the chanoot went back to the land office and sat down with the top man who explained that this route was now stopped is he lying to me?

nothing simple thailand

[Khun Bob]

<br />If this is so then I'm not surprised, but it will be a big pain as usufructs have such a significant advantage over leases.<br /><br />Still I guess that Pattaya and Bangkok is where most foreigners would be doing usufructs.<br /><br />I wonder if Sunbelt or IsaanLawyers would care to comment on this ?<br /><br />Seems funny that it may be halted in Pattaya, where as in other places the land office staff, have never heard of a usufruct !<br /><br />Also, I wonder Bomonster if this happenned as I seem to recall that you wanted to do a usufruct your self and not use legal assistance (correct me if I'm wrong)<br /><br />

i was told by land office in pattaya that the gov had stopped doing the sittagapgintalordshevit in favour of a 30 year different version with both names you and wife going on the channot and in the gov computer ?

<br />that's not a usufruct but just an ordinary lease.<br />

<br /><br />The land office in jomtiem refused point blank and when challanged they said this is the new legistlation, i showed them a copy of a usufruct sent to me by a member, they told me yes that was ok in 2548 not now, new gov guidelines.<br />

<br />

<br /><br /><br />

yes you are correct re the usufruct. I was advised re a member that the need for a lawyer was not necessary?I have heard so many cases of sh*t law advice and my first experience of a thai lawyer 2 year ago was poor, plus the lawyer from my selling agent has just scarperd with clients money, not mine thank god.

I also the next day having reg the chanoot went back to the land office and sat down with the top man who explained that this route was now stopped is he lying to me?

nothing simple thailand

I wonder if this is why people pay alot to the legal service firms - is the top man making it difficult for you as you by yourself and he thinks he can make out of it ?

How would you independently find out if rules with respect to usufructs had been changed and what, if any, those changes are ? But usufructs are a very old arrangement, somethign like this would surely require a change in law that would take some time to implement. And you are the first person to mention this problem. The only problems I've heard with usufructs is that the people in the land office dont have familiarity with them.

[Bomonster]

<br />

<br />If this is so then I'm not surprised, but it will be a big pain as usufructs have such a significant advantage over leases.<br /><br />Still I guess that Pattaya and Bangkok is where most foreigners would be doing usufructs.<br /><br />I wonder if Sunbelt or IsaanLawyers would care to comment on this ?<br /><br />Seems funny that it may be halted in Pattaya, where as in other places the land office staff, have never heard of a usufruct !<br /><br />Also, I wonder Bomonster if this happenned as I seem to recall that you wanted to do a usufruct your self and not use legal assistance (correct me if I'm wrong)<br /><br />

i was told by land office in pattaya that the gov had stopped doing the sittagapgintalordshevit in favour of a 30 year different version with both names you and wife going on the channot and in the gov computer ?

<br />that's not a usufruct but just an ordinary lease.<br />

<br /><br />The land office in jomtiem refused point blank and when challanged they said this is the new legistlation, i showed them a copy of a usufruct sent to me by a member, they told me yes that was ok in 2548 not now, new gov guidelines.<br />

<br />

<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />yes you are correct re the usufruct. I was advised re a member that the need for a lawyer was not necessary?I have heard so many cases of sh*t law advice and my first experience of a thai lawyer 2 year ago was poor, plus the lawyer from my selling agent has just scarperd with clients money, not mine thank god.<br /><br />I also the next day having reg the chanoot went back to the land office and sat down with the top man who explained that this route was now stopped is he lying to me?<br /><br />nothing simple thailand <br /><br /><br />

<br /><br />I wonder if this is why people pay alot to the legal service firms - is the top man making it difficult for you as you by yourself and he thinks he can make out of it ? <br /><br />How would you independently find out if rules with respect to usufructs had been changed and what, if any, those changes are ? But usufructs are a very old arrangement, somethign like this would surely require a change in law that would take some time to implement. And you are the first person to mention this problem. The only problems I've heard with usufructs is that the people in the land office dont have familiarity with them.<br />

<br /><br /><br /> No tha guy was fair and took me to one side and explained to me that it was down to this government now who are not recognising certain laws and having a free reign , i think . the manager was very aware of the usufruct and as i showed him the photo copy of one he, immediately new and pointed out the date. I am satisfied with his explanation and only too glad i did not go the illegal company route.

[Khun Jean]

Usefruct is the fashion of the moment.

I bet the people at the landoffice first saw all farangs waving with company papers to own land, now you have a lot of people waving with usufruct papers.

They just make a big sigh and think, which law (100s of years old) will be the next to be used for circumventing the land ownership law.

It is not comparable with around 10 years or longer ago. Then you had only very few foreigners wanting to buy land. Unfamiliarity and pressure by lawyers made the people at the landoffice unsure and they went with it. Thanks to Thaksin and his buddies and a big scandal on Koh Samui this 'company' construction is over. When thousands of foreigners nowadyas are running to the land office with usufructs you can bet that will be corrected very soon. Leaving only the preferred way of leasing.

The popularity of the usufruct will be its death. How soon, i think within a few years, maybe even sooner.

[Khun Bob]

Thanks for the replies - I guess this begs a few more questions now....

* If someone in the main office (whatever) has made a decision that usufructs cannot be used in the way most foreigners would like on land, is this a blanket policy ? In other words if you go somewhere and get a usufruct set up by the land office, is that usufruct still valid after this central decision ?

* If you already have a usufruct setup, could you be left like people who used a company to own land - ie in an illegal situation and potentially lose the rights you expected to have to the land

* How would some one find out exactly what has happenned ? I think goin along and asking would not be so good, as clearly it will just amplify the situation.

If usufructs are considered as a loophole, an more people start asking about them then it can only make the situation worse. But, what concerns me is that if you have one/get one and you think you are ok for the rest of your life and this then turns out to not be the case, can you move over to a lease. I guess that one solution if you have a usufruct or can get one is to lease the land to your self. Then again if the usufruc is considered invalid for this purpose, would lease issued from it also be considered invalid ?

DBTTWYCATL - Dont Bring To Thailand What You Cant Afford To Lose !

Well if usufructs have had their honeymoon is it the turn of superficies (spelling) next or are there any other old laws

[Bomonster]

Thanks for the replies - I guess this begs a few more questions now....

* If someone in the main office (whatever) has made a decision that usufructs cannot be used in the way most foreigners would like on land, is this a blanket policy ? In other words if you go somewhere and get a usufruct set up by the land office, is that usufruct still valid after this central decision ?

* If you already have a usufruct setup, could you be left like people who used a company to own land - ie in an illegal situation and potentially lose the rights you expected to have to the land

* How would some one find out exactly what has happenned ? I think goin along and asking would not be so good, as clearly it will just amplify the situation.

If usufructs are considered as a loophole, an more people start asking about them then it can only make the situation worse. But, what concerns me is that if you have one/get one and you think you are ok for the rest of your life and this then turns out to not be the case, can you move over to a lease. I guess that one solution if you have a usufruct or can get one is to lease the land to your self. Then again if the usufruc is considered invalid for this purpose, would lease issued from it also be considered invalid ?

DBTTWYCATL - Dont Bring To Thailand What You Cant Afford To Lose !

Well if usufructs have had their honeymoon is it the turn of superficies (spelling) next or are there any other old laws

would the british embassy be able to help re the usufruct,i like most poeple like black or white no grey, everything over here shifting sands.It would be a great test if we had somebody that could call all the offices and ask them ( thai person) if they are still doing usufructs and see who is and who isnt.

[donx]

Usefruct is the fashion of the moment.

I bet the people at the landoffice first saw all farangs waving with company papers to own land, now you have a lot of people waving with usufruct papers.

They just make a big sigh and think, which law (100s of years old) will be the next to be used for circumventing the land ownership law.

It is not comparable with around 10 years or longer ago. Then you had only very few foreigners wanting to buy land. Unfamiliarity and pressure by lawyers made the people at the landoffice unsure and they went with it. Thanks to Thaksin and his buddies and a big scandal on Koh Samui this 'company' construction is over. When thousands of foreigners nowadyas are running to the land office with usufructs you can bet that will be corrected very soon. Leaving only the preferred way of leasing.

The popularity of the usufruct will be its death. How soon, i think within a few years, maybe even sooner.

Maybe it's popularity will lead to more loosening of the foreign ownership laws.

Twelve years ago when I first visited Thailand on a business trip, I met an American married to a Thai. He owned a bungalow by a beach. Actually he didn't own it and neither did his wife. The bungalow was bought by his brother-in-law. Why? Because at that time Thai women married to a farang couldn't own property.

I'm sure that there were other farang doing the same thing. It wouldn't surprise me if the usufruct is performed on a regular basis for the Thai laws to be changed to allow such things as 99 year leases.

I could be completely wrong and I really don't care personally as I have no problem with my wife holding the title of any of our Thai property. With three kids to inherit them, I'm not concerned about me needing to put my name on the chanotes.

[Khun Jean]

I agree it should open up the minds of the ones in charge.

But i highly doubt it.

Fingers crossed, because it will be a huge boom in land prices.

Not to bad for people in our situation.

[Khun Bob]

Thanks for the replies - I guess this begs a few more questions now....

* If someone in the main office (whatever) has made a decision that usufructs cannot be used in the way most foreigners would like on land, is this a blanket policy ? In other words if you go somewhere and get a usufruct set up by the land office, is that usufruct still valid after this central decision ?

* If you already have a usufruct setup, could you be left like people who used a company to own land - ie in an illegal situation and potentially lose the rights you expected to have to the land

* How would some one find out exactly what has happenned ? I think goin along and asking would not be so good, as clearly it will just amplify the situation.

If usufructs are considered as a loophole, an more people start asking about them then it can only make the situation worse. But, what concerns me is that if you have one/get one and you think you are ok for the rest of your life and this then turns out to not be the case, can you move over to a lease. I guess that one solution if you have a usufruct or can get one is to lease the land to your self. Then again if the usufruc is considered invalid for this purpose, would lease issued from it also be considered invalid ?

DBTTWYCATL - Dont Bring To Thailand What You Cant Afford To Lose !

Well if usufructs have had their honeymoon is it the turn of superficies (spelling) next or are there any other old laws

would the british embassy be able to help re the usufruct,i like most poeple like black or white no grey, everything over here shifting sands.It would be a great test if we had somebody that could call all the offices and ask them ( thai person) if they are still doing usufructs and see who is and who isnt.

I think calling and asking the land offices would just hasten their demise. What is needed is an alternative way of finding out so that you can know, witout the land office knowing that you want to know and why you want to know

If they know what you want to know it will just raise more alarms.

Has to be said that the legal service firms, who asisst in doing leases and usufructs would/should be a fair source of information on this - seems that some people choice of where to consider may be influenced by the local land offices' policy on usufructs !

Still, does having a usufruct override any changes in law, that take place after the usufruct is issued ?

With the old company route, I beleive it was always known and stated that having a shell/holding company to own land was not permitted. It was just never enforced, till recently.

I just been reading the SEA forum on here about owning land in Cambodia - sure a foreigner can own land, but if some important person would like it - tough - laws dont apply !

I agree Black and White is nice - but I guess it is really just dark grey to light grey - because you never really know what can happen. Still, you have to do as much to protect your self as possible and keep an eye open on changes/rumours, and always have a few backup plans.

[Khun Bob]

Be interesting to hear from the legal service providers what the current status of obtaining usufructs is...

Edited November 4, 2007 by Khun Bob

[Khun Bob]

So who helped you do a lease or usufruct on Thai land ?

And, have you had difficulty registering a usufruct at a land office ? If so, which one ?

[Khun Bob]

Any update on land offices not allowing foreigners to register a usufruct ?

Also anymore service providers to add to the list of companies assisting foreigners with leases and usufructs ?

[Khun Bob]

I thought this would have been a useful topic for discussion - but I guess I am wrong.

Sem like there are just a few providers and only one has commented on here. Also few people want to speak of their experience. Agreed there are discussions in other topics.

Still some useful information has been covered.

Any update on land offices not allowing foreigners to register a usufruct ?

Also anymore service providers to add to the list of companies assisting foreigners with leases and usufructs ?

[Khun Bob]

Bump - any more providers ?

I thought this would have been a useful topic for discussion - but I guess I am wrong.

Sem like there are just a few providers and only one has commented on here. Also few people want to speak of their experience. Agreed there are discussions in other topics.

Still some useful information has been covered.

Any update on land offices not allowing foreigners to register a usufruct ?

Also anymore service providers to add to the list of companies assisting foreigners with leases and usufructs ?

[scotsman]

Well khun Bob

I got sunbelt asia to setup my usufruct last year in pattaya it was suppose to be for life but at that time pattaya land office would not do it for life only 30 years. Now the people at sunbelt told me they could force them to do it for life but it would take more time so I just agreed to the 30 years which is ok for me. My Thai wife owns the land & house I am ok with that but I needed some protection from the family so I got a usufruct. I also have a will in Thai & english leaving the house & land to me in the event of my wifes death. I don't think a usufruct is getting around the land laws as I don't own the land my Thai wife does. I don't see how they can stop anyone from getting a usufruct if its the law for everyone Thai or foreigner to have one on there wife's or any other Thai person's land.

[Khun Bob]

Hi Scotsman and thanks for your post

This is an interesting subject you have raised, slightly off this topic and very worthy of its own thread.

Anyway, I have come across a couple of people now who have had difficulty in setting up a usufruct for life. And I beleive both these involved the Pattaya land office.

I just wonder if you have a 30 year usufruct or a lease ? From what I know of usufructs, which is very little, I beleived it was only possible to have one for the life of the person specified (usufructee?).

However, as far as I am concerned, a usufruct has several advantages over a lease, and if I were in a similar situation to yourself, I would probably go with a usufruct. But I do wonder, if in the future, usufructs being used in this was may be declared invalid. In which case a lease would be better. Still if it does happen, I would hope that there is an opportunity to take an invalid usufruct and convert that to a lease, for up to 30 subsequent years, from the time of the usufruct being declared invalid. Of course, this may be deemed not possible and if converting to a lease, it must be taken from the time the invalid usufruct was registered.

Not so nice, but perhaps something to bear in mind. But I still think usufructs are better and see what happens. I guess a lot of other things can happen to...

Well khun Bob

I got sunbelt asia to setup my usufruct last year in pattaya it was suppose to be for life but at that time pattaya land office would not do it for life only 30 years. Now the people at sunbelt told me they could force them to do it for life but it would take more time so I just agreed to the 30 years which is ok for me. My Thai wife owns the land & house I am ok with that but I needed some protection from the family so I got a usufruct. I also have a will in Thai & english leaving the house & land to me in the event of my wifes death. I don't think a usufruct is getting around the land laws as I don't own the land my Thai wife does. I don't see how they can stop anyone from getting a usufruct if its the law for everyone Thai or foreigner to have one on there wife's or any other Thai person's land.

[scotsman]

Hi Khun Bob

You can have a usufruct for life or 30 years I have a 30 year usufruct not a lease as you have to pay 30 years tax for that. There has been many people in pattaya after me that have got usufructs for life in pattaya it all depends on who your lawyer gets at the land office. But I can tell you that if I wanted it for life I could have got sunbelt to go back to the land office another day. He would see someone else and get it for life but it would have taken more time & more tea money to get so I was happy with 30 years. I don't think the law will change for anyone with a usufruct as we don't own the land so why would they make a usufruct invalid? It only gives us the use of the land & house it can still be sold but we still have the right to stay.

[Khun Bob]

Thanks very much scotsman - some very useful information there.

May I ask what the total cost for you of getting a 30 year usufruct was ? Did you also get a tabien baan in your name as well (I understand this is also another benefit of having a usufruct over a lease) ?

You have some very valid points on why things should not change - and I certainly hope that they dont.

Cheers

Hi Khun Bob

You can have a usufruct for life or 30 years I have a 30 year usufruct not a lease as you have to pay 30 years tax for that. There has been many people in pattaya after me that have got usufructs for life in pattaya it all depends on who your lawyer gets at the land office. But I can tell you that if I wanted it for life I could have got sunbelt to go back to the land office another day. He would see someone else and get it for life but it would have taken more time & more tea money to get so I was happy with 30 years. I don't think the law will change for anyone with a usufruct as we don't own the land so why would they make a usufruct invalid? It only gives us the use of the land & house it can still be sold but we still have the right to stay.

[scotsman]

Well as other posters have informed you it was 9500 to draft and 8500 to register but in pattaya it also cost extra for tea money so with 7% vat tax = approx 25k. I did not want a yellow book its not worth anything its just for show as my Thai wife owns house & land. I have it registered on the land title so I don't need a yellow book.