Retirement Visa

[Miami Bob]

Does anyone know if interest income from stock/bond investments is considered exceptable as monthly income for a retirement visa and what exactly do they need to see as documentation?

[RDN]

Does anyone know if interest income from stock/bond investments is considered exceptable as monthly income for a retirement visa and what exactly do they need to see as documentation?

Don't know why the real 'gurus' haven't replied to this thread yet. I'm afraid that I don't know exactly what they want as documentary evidence of monthly income, but I do think it has to be very close to a pension income - interest on investments is possibly not close enough for them to accept - but don't take my word for it.

It's much easier to get a bank statement showing 800,000 baht in a bank and then use your investment interest each year to top up your Thai bank account back to the 800,000 mark. You don't have to transfer in 800,000 every year, just get the balance back up to that level.

Hope this helps.

[wca01]

It's possible. But you have to clarify and explain. A lawyer could solve this problem. Call 02-6431188 and ask Khun Anongnart for advice.

WC

[Thaiquila]

Related topic:

It is my understanding that for US citizens the US embassy takes your word for what you say is your income, and that this document from the US embassy is accepted by Thai immigration as proof of income for the visa. ?Is this true?

If it is true (and I am not suggesting anyone lie to embassy at all) if you believe your income is x annual dollars, you could state that to the US embassy and get your document, relieving you of some or all of your banking requirements.

Sounds too good to be true; so that's why I am asking about it.

[astral]

My understanding is that the Imm Dept wants a guaranteed income like a pension.

Investment income does not meet this requirement, as interest rates change, investments go bad etc. Mind you pension funds have been know to go bust as well.

You could ask the embassy what they will accept for the declaration?

[ProThaiExpat]

Keep in mind that the certification of retirement income, if used to qualify for the minimum 65k baht monthly minimum, must be obtained every year at renewal time.

I am not sure how much the U.S. Embassy or Counsulate is charging, but it is at least $25. Likewise, I can't believe the Embassy or Counsulate will certify anything other than what you declare to them, probably under oath, and perhaps documented, the source of the income. Thus the certification may very well say interest income of some many dollars or baht.

Clearly, if it is interest income from investments, you are skating on very thin ice.

Everything I have read, is that most immigration officers are leery of anything other than a bank account where they can see your spending habits and the annual renewal of your funds from overseas.

If you can convert your investments into somehting approaching an annuity, you would have a better chance.

RDN's advice regarding a Thai bank account is the best advice. You clearly have sufficient capital to put 800k baht into a savings account in Thailand, if your able to live off your interest income, and if your retirement plans are long term, that is the way to go. We who must renew every year with a different immigration officer every time or so, dread their having the option of accepting or denying our proferred documentation. One year you might get by on a interest income Embassy verified income stream with one immigration officer and then the next, no way. What do you say or what do you do from Thailand if your proferred document is not acceptable to an annally retentive immigration officer who interprets pension as stated in the regulation to mean just that.

[paulsenp]

Keep in mind that the certification of retirement income, if used to qualify for the minimum 65k baht monthly minimum, must be obtained every year at renewal time.

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What do you say or what do you do from Thailand if your proferred document is not acceptable to an annally retentive immigration officer who interprets pension as stated in the regulation to mean just that.

In the documentaion found at http://www.thaivisa.com/318.0.html it doesn't mention anything about the source of your income, it is simply "income".

[ProThaiExpat]

This is from the Immigration Department's own web page:

5. Financial Evidence:

- Bank account pass-book, bank statement

- Evidence showing reception of pension accompanied with Thai translation certified by the embassy or consulate of the country paying the pension

- Evidence presenting other sources of income or evidence of money transferred from overseas

Thaivisa's version of the regulations is inaccurate in its first sentence when it says you must get your retirement visa abroad. However, Div 3 Main Immigration's web page likewise says you must get your retirement visa abroad, and that is not true, so we are now at the ultimate point in all discussions regarding immigration regulations and that is they vary and a great deal of discretion is alowed each immigration officer making the decision.

In my post, I tried to point the way for the safest and most "slam dunk" method of satisfying the financial responsibility requirements of all immigration officers you might encounter. It has been said on the thai immigration website that if a long term retiree falls on bad times and can't make his 800k minimum, leniencey would be shown. Incredible that they would say such a thing, but it is possibly true in some instances. Coffee money is always an issue.

Many posters pose questions that suggest that they don't want to be inconvenienced by changing their existing financial setup when coming to Thailand. Fine, but appraise the risk of refusal. The level of risk of refusal on any given extention application goes up as one drifts from the bank account financial responsibility method to those that are more subject to market variables and finacial uncertainty. Clearly, income from a ten year treasury bond is a far more reliable income producer than dividends from a stock.

Many immigration officers are lazy police officers who care less what is going on and will approve anything the Embassy certifies, it is the diligent, inquisative and perhaps bigoted one that must be considered when your next years happiness in Thailand is at stake. "Be safe than sorry" is the motto many of us long term retireees follow when dealing with immigration. Others run risks and more power to them, if they are willing to face the uncertainty of those risks.

[RDN]

This is from the Immigration Department's own web page:

5. Financial Evidence:

- Bank account pass-book, bank statement

- Evidence showing reception of pension accompanied with Thai translation certified by the embassy or consulate of the country paying the pension

- Evidence presenting other sources of income or evidence of money transferred from overseas

Thaivisa's version of the regulations is inaccurate in its first sentence when it says you must get your retirement visa abroad. However, Div 3 Main Immigration's web page likewise says you must get your retirement visa abroad, and that is not true, so we are now at the ultimate point in all discussions regarding immigration regulations and that is they vary and a great deal of discretion is alowed each immigration officer making the decision.

In my post, I tried to point the way for the safest and most "slam dunk" method of satisfying the financial responsibility requirements of all immigration officers you might encounter. It has been said on the thai immigration website that if a long term retiree falls on bad times and can't make his 800k minimum, leniencey would be shown. Incredible that they would say such a thing, but it is possibly true in some instances. Coffee money is always an issue.

Many posters pose questions that suggest that they don't want to be inconvenienced by changing their existing financial setup when coming to Thailand. Fine, but appraise the risk of refusal. The level of risk of refusal on any given extention application goes up as one drifts from the bank account financial responsibility method to those that are more subject to market variables and finacial uncertainty. Clearly, income from a ten year treasury bond is a far more reliable income producer than dividends from a stock.

Many immigration officers are lazy police officers who care less what is going on and will approve anything the Embassy certifies, it is the diligent, inquisative and perhaps bigoted one that must be considered when your next years happiness in Thailand is at stake. "Be safe than sorry" is the motto many of us long term retireees follow when dealing with immigration. Others run risks and more power to them, if they are willing to face the uncertainty of those risks.

Agree with that PTE, but I have just thought of a reason why there is confusion about getting a "Retirement" visa in Thailand. We are really talking about a type "O-A" visa and this is what various "official" web sites say:

First, the Ministry of Foriegn Affairs says:

( http://www.mfa.go.th/web/12.php#Type )

III. CHANNELS TO SUBMIT VISA APPLICATION

o Applicants can submit their applications both at the Thai embassy / consular missions where they have their permanent residence or at the Office of the Immigration Bureau in Thailand. (Address : Section 1, Sub-Division 1, Immigration 1, Immigration Bureau, Soi Suan Plu, off South Sathorn Road, Sathorn District, Bangkok 10120. Telephone 287-4948 (direct line) or 287-3101-10 ext. 2236)

o Please be advised that the following applicants are eligible to apply for this type of visa in the country :

- Applicants undergoing Health Rehabilitation Programin hospitals or Health Centers. These organizations will apply on behalf of the individual applicant.

- Applicants who are spouses / parents / children of applicants above.

- Applicants to whom the agencies or organizations approved by the Office of the Immigration Bureau have applied for visa on their behalf. The above mentioned applicants must have qualifications stated in I and II.

- The Consular missions will be notified to issue visa to the individual applicant when the Office of Immigration Bureau has given approval.

......................

Second, the Thai Embassy in London says:

( http://www.thaiembassyuk.org.uk/visalongstay.html )

3. Channels to submit visa application and visa fee

* 3.1 Applicants can submit their applications at the Thai consular missions aboard.

* 3.2 The Office of the Immigration Bureau (Address: Section 1, Sub-Division 1, Immigration Bureau, Soi Suan Plu, off South Sathorn Road, Sathon District, Bangkok 10120. Tel. 0066-22873101-10 ext.2236

* 3.3 The following applicants may also apply for this type of visa in the country if:

- applicants undergoing health rehabilitation program in hospitals or health centers. These organizations will apply on behalf of the individual applicant.

- Applicants who are spouse / parents / children of applicants above.

- Applicants to whom the agencies or organizations approved by the Immigration Bureau have applied for visa on behalf. The above mentioned applicants must have qualifications sated in 1-2

* 3.4 Once the documents are matched with requirements, the consular missions shall issue the Non-Immigrant visa “O-A” (Long Stay) single (1) entry, the visa fee is GPP 15.00-(as of since September 1992, the new cost has not yet been effective)

.......................

Finally, the Hong Kong Thai Consulate says:

( http://www.thai-consulate.org.hk/retirement_visa.htm )

IV. Procedure for consideration and issuance of visa

a. Thai embassies or consulates

- Application will be forwarded to the Office of the Immigration Bureau in Thailand via the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for approval. Once approval is granted, embassies or consulates will be notified to issue visa to the applicant.

b. The Office of the Immigration Bureau

(Address : Section 1, Sub-Division 1, Immigration 1, Immigration Bureau, Soi Suan Plu, Off South Sathorn Road, Sathorn District, Bangkok 10120. Telephone 02-287-4948 (direct line) or 02-287-3101 - 10 ext. 2236).

The following applicants may apply for this type of visa in Thailand :

- Applicants undergoing Health Rehabilitation Program in hospitals or Health Centers. These organizations will apply on behalf of the individual applicant.

- Applicants who are spouses / parents / children of applicants above.

- Applicants to whom the agencies or organizations approved by the Office of the Immigration Bureau have applied for visa on their behalf. The above mentioned applicants must have qualifications stated in I.

...................

Now, it is possible that what they all mean is this: you can get a type "O-A" from the Embassy/Consulate in your own country if you are over 50 and fulfill the other requirements (money/health/criminal record), BUT you can also get a type "O-A" at Soi Suan Phlu if you also fulfill the other requirements of (i) undergoing Health Rehabilitation, (ii) being a spouse / parent / child of applicant undergoing Health Rehabilitation, or (iii) being an applicant to whom the agencies or organizations approved by the Office of the Immigration Bureau have applied for visa on your behalf.

What do you think?

[KevinN]

You go to the US embassy and pay your $30 for notary service,tell them how much you get,and they stamp a form that you said you get XXXX dollars in income every month,,take that to Thai immigration,,and thats all that is needed.

But it would be easiest for you to put your 800K in the bank,use it to live off of and then top it up at the end of the year,or have monthly transfers to it every month,then all you have to do is show immig. your bank book that shows withdraws and deposits,,they love it. Thats what I have been doing for the last couple of years and makes them happy.

[bkkharry]

I took my retirement statement showing how much I recieve each month to the American Embassy. They notarized this statement. Thai Immigration converted $ amount on statement to baht. No problem-spent less than 1/2 hour getting my non immigrant O extended for another year. Have to wait a month while they process it, but acutal time spent at immigration half an hour. Much easier than I thought it would be.

[ProThaiExpat]

bkkharry: It would help the discussion if you would advise what you mean by "retirement statement". May we assume it is a statement of your pension received yearly?

[bkkharry]

My retirement statment is a documet I receive each month for direct deposit of my pension into a US bank, shows how much I recieve each month and all my other deductions. Ie, US income tax, insurance. Since the US will not deposit retirement checks in non us banks, have my check deposted in my US account back in the States. ATM money out each month for living expenses, then once a year wire transfer what ever amount I need to meet reqirements for extending my non immingrant O.

[KevinN]

But according to the written rules ,if you have XXX dollars in a Thai bank acct. then you are not required to have a monthly income,,and if you have sufficent [65,000] baht per month income the rules say you do not need a bank acct.

And they would not accept my monthly bank statements as proof,,even tho everyone for the 6 month period that I printed were exactly alike except for the dates

do you mean that you have to have both??

[ProThaiExpat]

It should be kept in mind, that immigrations primary focus these days is detecting people who work in Thailand without a work permit or are involved in illegal activities. So, I would be surprised if they do not require you to show a bank account wherein it is shown that you deposit your pension into your bank account and draw fom it for living expenses.

Other proof of your meeting your living expenses from your pension proceeds may be satisfactory, such as ATM receipts might do. Many have posted that the bank account is mandatory even with a certified pension from the Embassy, but the requirement may vary from immigration office to immigration office.

Do any of you reading this post who verify pensions every year, also show your bank books as indicated above?????

[ProThaiExpat]

bkkharry: Your last sentence suggests you have a bank account that you top off?

Are you required to show a bank account in addition to your pension verification?

[KevinN]

PTE;;said;;Do any of you reading this post who verify pensions every year, also show your bank books as indicated above?????

I do,,when I got my first "O" they wanted the letter from the embassy and other stuff,,I had 6 months of bank statements with deposits and ATM wirhdraws from my US bank,she wanted to see the letter from the embassy only,didnt care about pension letters from my unions that stated pension for life time or SSA form that they send every year with the amount of their payment

I had more than enough pensions for the visa which required 65,000 baht figured at 40=$1,then wanted to know if I had a Thai bank acct. I did but told her I very seldom use it because I made ATM draws,,she said to put 60K in it and come back next week with the book and a letter from the bank.

I called to her attn. the fact that I had more in income than was required by the rules and she said "I require both income and a bank acct." and she has required it every year since, not only the book,but a new lifetime pension letter from the embassy and a letter from the bank,,,sure love that paperwork.

She doesn't want to see any proof,,just embassy letter,bank book and bank letter.

[bkkharry]

I had to provide a copy of my bank book, plus a letter from Bangkok Bank stating that I had wired transfed money into Thailand from the US. Provided this plus the notarized statement of my pension income. I also had US bankstatements showing where I ATMed 70,000 to 80,000 baht per month from my US bank account, but Immigration did not want these documents. Gave them back to me and said they did not want them.

My thoughts when going to Immigration is to take everything you might think they want, just to cover yourself and save time. If you don't have what they want you have to come back and try again. I found immigration to be very helpful. The best thing to do is if you have any questions go to Immigration and ask them, it can save you a lot of time and really makes things easier.

Like KevinN stated above, you need bank book, letter from bank, and notarized statement.

[chuckd]

I got the standard retirement visa letter from the US Embassy. This retirement visa letter is a blank form you fill out, after paying your $30, and swear before a Consular official that it is true. He signs it, stamps it and away you go.

Immigration in Pattaya also wanted a letter from the bank and my bank book. My income was clearly over the 65,000 but I had just bought a car so my bank balance was in the 200,000 range. Not a problem.

Gave all this to Immigration and had the one year extension same day.

[harpman88]

Hello to all..I will be in the same boat as Kevin and ChuckD come Feb.1 when my U.S. Govt. pension begins.

I will be supplementing this with a steady stream of monthly income from my investments in closed end municipal bond funds. Also already have acct. at BKK bank. No problem showing both more than enough monthly income AND substantial amount in BKK bank.This,as has been suggested by PTE,Dr.PP,etal on more than one occasion seems to be the best way to go. If you can show Thai immigration BOTH the pension/income AND are willing to maintain a sizeable bank balance,I dont see why anyone who plans on retiring in LOS would do it any other way. Thanx much again relating yor experiences, Kevin and Chuck.

[Miami Bob]

Thanks for all the input from you guys in response to the topic I started. I've decided to just go the easy route and put 800,000 in my account here. It just kills me to tie up any money at less than one percent interest. A "guru" I met in the sauna insisted that I could put the 800,000 into 7 year Thai government bonds at 6 1/2 % and still get the letter from the bank to show immigration. I went to Thai Farmers bank and ask the officer. He laughed! If I understood his English correctly, the letter simply states how much money you have in your savings account as of that day.

Something I discovered while living in Brazil is that the immigration officials attitude tends to improve markedly if you speak to them in their native language. Being from Miami Florida I am very aware of how local populations feel about foreigners who come to their country and make no attempt to learn the native language. So when I go in to get my retirement visa I will be smiling, showing respect, wearing my best shirt and most importantly I will make an attempt to conduct the interview in Thai. I have two more months to study. Wish me luck!

Miami Bob

[harpman88]

Miami Bob:I certainly understand your feelings of having to tie that much up in the bank,if we indeed are moving into a higher interest rate environment,however this COULD

potentially ease the pain somewhat.

( I personally hate the fact that over $10,000 at any time must be reported to the IRS) This is the main reason why I want to keep 8 to

9 Thousand$$ in BKK bank and combine that with the pension/income to satisfy the financial requirement. We

shall see come next year. All the power to you for learning to speak Thai.I think its a great idea,assimilation is key. Ive been speaking for over 10 years and now learning how to read ,write,and even more importantly LISTEN also.

As so many farangs butcher the language, for one to properly learn Thai will be a big plus in your favor. I would be sure and have your "polite particles" in order for Thai immigration tho!

To BKKHarry: In your post you say that you "once a year wire transfer the amnt. needed for the O visa". Since you also have pension/income(as I will too) is this amnt. 800K baht or are you using (as I hope to) the combo method to meet the income requirement?

As I stated earlier I would like to keep 8 or 9K U.S.in the bank and transfer in the rest from my pension/income. Thanx much in advance the Harpman.

[marty]

The good doctor posted this earlier this year. I suppose it is still valid?

dr_Pat_Pong

Posted: Tue 2004-05-04, 08:42:02

Dr. & Prolific Senior Admin

Group: Admin

Posts: 7,944

Member No.: 110

Joined: 2002-11-20

QUOTE (Simbo @ Tue 2004-05-04, 08:07:31)

These varying amounts one needs in the bank to qualify for a long visa. Is there no where one can invest these amounts, so as to give you a decent reurn. Somewhere acceptable to the Thai immigration as having sufficient funds in Thailand. Would an equivilant amount in Thai stocks and shares be acceptable?

I'm a divorcee, so now I need 800,000 in the bank for my one year retirement visa. While I'm ok now, I wonder if I can maintain this amount into the future. If I could invest, or deposit this amount somewhere that would give me a good return and at the same time, being accepted as money in Thailand.

If anyone has any input into my suggestions, I would be interested to hear.

The regulations make it clear that you need a bank account in Thailand, or a combination of income / savings, or income alone amounting to that 800,000

[ProThaiExpat]

I am unaware of any restrictions to moving your 800k baht to a more interest favorable account anywhere, just so long as you have the 800K in the account at extention time.

Most immigration officers want to see your drawing down on your bank account during the year for your living expenses, so if you are moving money in and out of Thailand inorder to get better interest or return, you want to make sure your keep your wire transfer documents, although you bank book probably has a code for foreign transfers which would appear in your bank book.

[Boon Mee]

Since the US will not deposit retirement checks in non us banks, have my check deposted in my US account back in the States. ATM money out each month for living expenses, then once a year wire transfer what ever amount I need to meet reqirements for extending my non immingrant O.

bkkharry,

Are we talking about SSA checks that the US won't deposit into non-US Banks? I had planned to have mine - when the time comes - deposited into KBank (ThaiFarmer)..that won't work?

[lopburi3]

Since the US will not deposit retirement checks in non us banks, have my check deposted in my US account back in the States. ATM money out each month for living expenses, then once a year wire transfer what ever amount I need to meet reqirements for extending my non immingrant O.

bkkharry,

Are we talking about SSA checks that the US won't deposit into non-US Banks? I had planned to have mine - when the time comes - deposited into KBank (ThaiFarmer)..that won't work?

International Direct Deposit is only available to the below countries as of 5/25/2004;

IDD is available in Anguilla, Antigua & Barbuda, Austria, Australia, Bahama Islands, Barbados, Belgium, British Virgin Islands, Canada, Cayman Islands, Cyprus, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Grenada, Haiti, Hong Kong, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, Malta, Mexico, Netherlands, Netherlands Antilles, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, South Africa, Spain, St. Kitts & Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, Sweden, Switzerland, Trinidad & Tobago, and United Kingdom.

[marios]

On the same issue, verification of income, I would like to add my question as well

If one has ample funds abroad and can prove it and also can prove that they can be readily wired to a Thailand Bank, can this thing be, in your opinion, accepted by the authorities?

In my many trips to Thailand as tourist,staying in excess of two months in many occasions, I have always used credit cards of my bank back home without any problem and I would like to continue doing so. Of course if I deposit the 80K to a local bank I can continue this practice but should I decide to return home how about the balance of my 80K? are they really retrievable in foreign exchange or is it just something which in theory applies but never gets implemented. have you heard of any expatriate returning home and getting his money back?

Maybe this is clear in many of you and this may have been clarified but bear with me and enlighten me.

thank you

Marios

[lopburi3]

On the same issue, verification of income, I would like to add my question as well

If one has ample funds abroad and can prove it and also can prove that they can be readily wired to a Thailand Bank, can this thing be, in your opinion, accepted by the authorities?

In my many trips to Thailand as tourist,staying in excess of two months in many occasions, I have always used credit cards of my bank back home without any problem and I would like to continue doing so. Of course if I deposit the 80K to a local bank I can continue this practice but should I decide to return home how about the balance of my 80K? are they really retrievable in foreign exchange or is it just something which in theory applies but never gets implemented. have you heard of any expatriate returning home and getting his money back?

Maybe this is clear in many of you and this may have been clarified but bear with me and enlighten me.

thank you

Marios

Accepted for what? A long stay extension requires 800k in a bank deposit not 80k so am unclear what you want to do. You also say you are using tourist visa and want to continue so don't believe you are asking about retirement. Or are you?

Money used for extension of stay is in a normal baht account and can be withdrawn and used anytime. Also should not be a problem sending out of Thailand. Even a Thai bank atm card can be used for this if you are concerned.

If you want to continue your tourist trips can see nothing preventing that. If you do for an extended period with no break outside the country you might be asked to show some form of proof of support (such are credit card receipts or atm withdrawal slips from a foreign account). Nobody is interested to causing tourists any problem but they might get asked now as they try to weed out the illegal workers.

[ProThaiExpat]

Boonmee: While your question is directed to bkkharry, you might find my own experience illuminating.

I attempted to have direct deposit of my SSA check into my Bangkok Bank account, first through the efforts of the branch manager and then by the secton in the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok that deals with Social Security matters. Both assured me that they had clients who did it and that they could do it.

Both efforts failed!!

I then had e-mail information from a Thaivisa member, who works for the Social Security Administration in Guam who looked up on their computer a guy who he knew got direct deposits in Thailand.

He advised that the direct deposit was made to the Bangkok Bank branch in New York city. He was not clear as to whether it was a correspondent bank or an actual U.S. chartered branch of Bangkok Bank, but evidently, one that permits direct deposit via a treasury link.

I went no further with it as I reasoned that if I let the money accumulate in a U.S. bank, I would have control on when the money came into Thailand and I could perhaps take advantage of a favorable conversion rate.

I have now set up a wire transfer service with Charles Schwab, who only charges $25 per wire transfer regardless of amount. My bank charges $65 for any amount over 5k. There is a moneylink between my bank and Schwab, so it is moved effortlessly electronically.

PS I found an internet bank, IngDirect that pays 2.10% interest on savings and they moneylink between themselves and your U.S. bank. They require a U.S. address.

[lopburi3]

I went no further with it as I reasoned that if I let the money accumulate in a U.S. bank, I would have control on when the money came into Thailand and I could perhaps take advantage of a favorable conversion rate.

You can also have US credit/debit card which can be useful for ordering gifs and such for people still in US. You also have account for your huge IRS refund direct deposit each year. (or direct payment)