What Moe Says About The Contracts With Farangs?

[stepenwolf1958]

Hi there...Anyone know what MOE in Thailand have as REGULATIONS(for schools), about how to make the Contracts with farangs?(about months, salaries...etc.)?

If have anything-is it as RECOMMANDINGS or as an ORDERS? What the law in Thailand says about same?

As far as i see,it is up to school.How long the Contract MUST to be?How much is salary,according to Thai law or all REALLY depend up on school?Most common answer is:"We don't have a money...".Is that true?

Above all,is it by the law school have right to make discrimination and to have rates for natives and non-natives(even EU countries),especially for Phillippino people here?What is going on here???The answers what i heard are incredible!

Please let me know,soon as possible.I am a newcomer,this is out of logic for me and i would like to know what Thai law,MOE says about way to do with farangs(IF says at all)...

Thanks...

[PeaceBlondie]

Quick answers or non-answers to your questions:

No I don't know of any laws, regulations, or national policies of the MoE that are worth the paper it cost to print them. It's up to the local guy (mine said 'Oh, duh, mai kowjai, we've never issued a work permit in 1,200 years, to a teacher'). The schools can write almost any contract they want, in Thai or Pali or Ugaritic, and then use it for toilet paper. And surely, they can 'discriminate' between native speakers and not, between Scots and Filipinos, or just about anybody, whenever they or the PTA want to.

Money. Thai schools have countless millions upon millions of baht. Unless the Director is driving an 11 year old Kawasaki, they can afford to pay Filipinas 39,000 every month, and Scots 98,000 baht. But they won't!

[Ijustwannateach]

It's my understanding that the MOE is able to specify qualification requirements for teachers working either at public or private schools and universities (the requirements are different); without their endorsement the Ministry of Labour won't issue a work permit. The Ministry of Labour is the one with teeth; they will make rulings and enforce provisions even on contracts with persons who aren't legal- the rub is that you will be bitten, too, if you don't have a work permit. National law overrules whatever is on the contract, so where the two conflict, the national labour law wins. Don't expect local school employers to understand or admit this without a call from your lawyer or an MOL official, though.

Labour law here is quite strong; it's mainly a matter of being legal enough to use it without being hoist by your own petard. If you have a work permit and a serious contract dispute, I wouldn't hesitate to speak with them. However, you should be sure that you want to win the battle first; it might make your working life unpleasant if you were going to stay at the same school afterwards (so you would lose the war).

"Steven"

[TerryLH]

"Money. Thai schools have countless millions upon millions of baht. Unless the Director is driving an 11 year old Kawasaki, they can afford to pay Filipinas 39,000 every month, and Scots 98,000 baht. But they won't!"

PB. I hope this was written as an attempt at humor.

[PeaceBlondie]

I wrote, ""Money. Thai schools have countless millions upon millions of baht. Unless the Director is driving an 11 year old Kawasaki, they can afford to pay Filipinas 39,000 every month, and Scots 98,000 baht. But they won't!"

TerryLH seriously responded, "PB. I hope this was written as an attempt at humor. "

No Terry, I usually am a jovial guy who uses ironic and sarcastic humor, but I was serious. I mis-stated by using the word countless, and exaggerated the monthly amounts. I'm perfectly serious that most Thai schools, government and private, bring in enormous sums of money annually, surely in the multiples of millions if they have 500 students. My mate who replaced me swears that his salary as a farang ajarn is still supplemented by the MoE by 19,000 baht per month (yet they still only pay him 25K for eleven months!). When we taught there, the students were paying at least 14K more per year or per semester, each, for foreign teachers. Our director, like most directors, drove a Mercedes.

I don't accept this "mai mee 'tang" excuse from schools, "We don't have money." They have enough money to pay farang teachers double what they already pay. I know lots of Thai teachers of English whose monthly income exceeds 25K plus boat-loads of benefits that farang teachers don't get. Schools way out in the remote areas may not have that much, of course. Small private language schools may be too poor to afford any good teacher. In many cases, the owners/directors choose to spend money on building projects, glamorous but unsuccessful high tech projects, slush funds, etc.

The governing body of universities in Thailand may dictate a salary of 26K per month, but that can be supplemented, and the uni teacher can do private lessons on campus. I don't think the MoE has any minima or maxima on salaries for farang.

[Scott]

I usually re-write out contracts every year to reflect any changes. I am not aware of anything from the MOE about what has to be or doesn't have to be in the contract.

As a very general rule, it's not the contract per se that is the problem, but the interpretation and implementation of the contract that causes disputes.

To give you an example, we pay a portion of the airfare for overseas teachers recruited from countries outside of Asia. The contract is clear, but when the payment is made is not clear, and the owner pays a portion after the probationary period and the remainder at the end of the contract. Some people complain about this.

In general this is where the problems come into play.

[TerryLH]

PB, you made a very broadbased generalization that I don't happen to agree with. If you narrow that down to EP's and some private schools, we might find some agreement.

[PeaceBlondie]

PB, you made a very broadbased generalization that I don't happen to agree with. If you narrow that down to EP's and some private schools, we might find some agreement.

Okay, Terry; no problem.

Many or most schools in Thailand, if they properly managed their total assets and income, would have more than enough income to pay its teachers (Thai and farang, English and other subjects, private and public schools) if they considered it a higher priority than enlarging the Director's office, building a new marquee, etc. Especially EP's and private schools, who have more money per pupil, can do this. Truly poverty stricken schools in rural areas and urban slums cannot afford to build outhouses or buy blackboards, or chalk. Every exception has exceptions.

I don't buy the simplistic excuse, "Oh we not pay farang much money; cannot do, mae dai; mai mee tang."

Does the MoE supplement public schools so they can pay their farang? How many Thai secondary teachers make more than the average TEFLer who has a degree? What are the tuition fees for English programs, including the unofficial "we charge because we have a white skinned teacher of European origin"?

[TerryLH]

"I don't buy the simplistic excuse, "Oh we not pay farang much money; cannot do, mae dai; mai mee tang.""

It's late so I may have to look at this again tomorrow.

I don't like it either. I agree that on the surface there seems to be more available than is portioned out.

Could be many reasons why that is, and why the money isn't.

I'd like to share a theory I have about 'some' EP's. I'm talking about the decent ones, the ones that are trying.

In the USA, some of the large universities make a lot of money on their football programs. That money doesn't all go back into the football program. A lot of the schools use some of the money to fund non revenue producing sports.

Perhaps the better schools are taking a similar approach, and are using excess money to help pay for some of the other things that go on at the school. Idealistic? Perhaps. I'd rather believe that than accept that every program is corrupt.

"Does the MoE supplement public schools so they can pay their farang?"

I believe the schools get money to pay their teachers. If it happens to be a foreign teacher that is filling the billet, I think they get the same as if it were a Thai. The excess salary is than obtained by collecting extra fees from students in the program, or in some schools I've been at, by the parents association.

Yeah, I know, it all comes out of the parents pockets. There are minor differences, but too late for my brain to explain right now.

In my opinion, some of the posters on here and aj.xxx seem to think that their schools exist soley for their benefit, and that all the monies collected should be theirs. In a lot of schools in this country the extra Eng foreigners provide is a 'nice to have', and not a 'need to have'.

Too late to continue. ...

[lost_in_space]

Aren't any contracts not written in Thai not legal?

[alaina]

Many or most schools in Thailand, if they properly managed their total assets and income, would have more than enough income to pay its teachers (Thai and farang, English and other subjects, private and public schools) if they considered it a higher priority than enlarging the Director's office, building a new marquee, etc. Especially EP's and private schools, who have more money per pupil, can do this. Truly poverty stricken schools in rural areas and urban slums cannot afford to build outhouses or buy blackboards, or chalk. Every exception has exceptions.

I don't buy the simplistic excuse, "Oh we not pay farang much money; cannot do, mae dai; mai mee tang."

Does the MoE supplement public schools so they can pay their farang? How many Thai secondary teachers make more than the average TEFLer who has a degree? What are the tuition fees for English programs, including the unofficial "we charge because we have a white skinned teacher of European origin"?

Amen. There are very few Thai private schools in Thailand that pay foreigners what they can afford, not just what they can get away with paying. Most private schools are money making enterprises, schools almost by accident. They don't care who they hire as long as the teacher is white because they don't really see what the difference is.

The principals are shocked when someone that is qualified to teach in their home country says, "No, thanks," to a 30K offer to just come in and sign a contract, no interview required. I'm tempted to respond, "I'm flattered that you liked my online picture, but I'm more than just white and a 30K contract." Face it, some of the school owners out there are clueless and rich fully intending on staying that way.

The worst part is that the parents pay for something that the kids don't get. Few parents even have a clue on how to spot a good school. It's not that parents are stupid; it's not an easy task. Many schools have a good reputation among Thais, but foreign teachers have heard much to the contrary. I'm sure I'm biased, but I think more than a few schools are just riding on a fallacy (or several.)

[Ijustwannateach]

I've written this before, but it bears repeating: At some point in the past, I worked at a public school in Thailand. That school paid me roughly 30K a month. I was teaching roughly the entire school, one period per week at a time, class-by-class. Each of the roughly 1000 students was paying an extra 1000B a month for the privilege (I later learned) for my presence. That's a cool million a month. In my books, that makes 1,000,000-30,000 per month profit. I wonder where it went.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

Aren't any contracts not written in Thai not legal?

Actually, I don't think so. Even verbal contracts can be defended, in principle. But if you don't have a work permit, you're also an illegal worker and subject to penalties (including imprisonment and deportation).

[PeaceBlondie]

First, let me defend TerryLH. His posts and grammar looked fine. His detractor failed to capitalize the pronoun "I." As our Australian friend used to say, "I don't have to have perfect grammar and spelling online, just in the classroom." Besides, it was late, and Terry was tired.

Perhaps the finances of the school are none of our business. I worked for an agency that brought in $3 TRILLION dollars per year, and they only paid me $50,000 per year! It's the administration that trots out that excuse that won't run, "We don't have the money to pay you more." I don't care; I just think I'm worth more. So I voted with my feet.

[Scott]

This is some interesting discussion. I hate to spoil it, but I can't resist.

If there is an English and a Thai contract, the Thai contract (and it's interpretation) take precedense over the English one.

Now, please continue. Sorry for the interruption.

[TerryLH]

Thank you for that PB.

"This is some interesting discussion. I hate to spoil it, but I can't resist.

If there is an English and a Thai contract, the Thai contract (and it's interpretation) take precedense over the English one."

That wasn't the question. See below.

"Aren't any contracts not written in Thai not legal?"

I think Ijustwannateach gave the correct answer for the question that was asked.

I also think Scott's answer would be right if that particular question was asked.

"...I worked at a public school in Thailand. That school paid me roughly 30K a month. I was teaching roughly the entire school, one period per week at a time, class-by-class. Each of the roughly 1000 students was paying an extra 1000B a month for the privilege (I later learned) for my presence. That's a cool million a month. In my books,..."

I've been in a similar situation at two different schools here. Each of them were charging the students 200 baht per term. Each school is different. You need to look at the community you're in. A lot of rural schools have kids going there that are not rich or even from medium income families.

I've never taught at a 'rich' school, but if I did, I'd follow advice like what PB and Southern dog gave.

Terry

[samsara]

Thank you for that PB.

"This is some interesting discussion. I hate to spoil it, but I can't resist.

If there is an English and a Thai contract, the Thai contract (and it's interpretation) take precedense over the English one."

That wasn't the question. See below.

"Aren't any contracts not written in Thai not legal?"

I think Ijustwannateach gave the correct answer for the question that was asked.

I also think Scott's answer would be right if that particular question was asked.

"...I worked at a public school in Thailand. That school paid me roughly 30K a month. I was teaching roughly the entire school, one period per week at a time, class-by-class. Each of the roughly 1000 students was paying an extra 1000B a month for the privilege (I later learned) for my presence. That's a cool million a month. In my books,..."

I've been in a similar situation at two different schools here. Each of them were charging the students 200 baht per term. Each school is different. You need to look at the community you're in. A lot of rural schools have kids going there that are not rich or even from medium income families.

I've never taught at a 'rich' school, but if I did, I'd follow advice like what PB and Southern dog gave.

Terry

What proceeds is a bunch of generalizations that DO NOT hold true universally but which are certainly the case in many a school in Thailand:

1) 90% of schools employ white people to make $$$ END OF STORY

2) If the school runs an MOE-approved program then everything is subsidized by the MOE. That means salaries, materials, etc. SO don't buy into the "we have no $$" bs.

3) Like someone noted, by in large, English progs exist to fund other programs/projects at school. Precious few schools actually invest any PROFIT in the actual English prog.

4) Find out how much your school charges the students. I GUARANTEE you'll be floored by the sum total. Take the school's revenue from the parents (excluding potential MOE contributions) and deduct every English teacher's (farang and thai) salary. Go ahead and factor in utilities and whatever scant resources your school may have accumulated. The final total, which is PURE PROFIT mind you, will shock you even more. Where does it go?? How many houses/cars has your director bought since arriving at your school?

5) Good rule of thumb when it comes to thai schools: the deeper you dig, the more disgusting everything becomes.

Edited October 5, 2007 by samsara

[southerndog]

What proceeds is a bunch of generalizations that DO NOT hold true universally but which are certainly the case in many a school in Thailand:

1) 90% of schools employ white people to make $$$ END OF STORY

2) If the school runs an MOE-approved program then everything is subsidized by the MOE. That means salaries, materials, etc. SO don't buy into the "we have no $$" bs.

3) Like someone noted, by in large, English progs exist to fund other programs/projects at school. Precious few schools actually invest any PROFIT in the actual English prog.

4) Find out how much your school charges the students. I GUARANTEE you'll be floored by the sum total. Take the school's revenue from the parents (excluding potential MOE contributions) and deduct every English teacher's (farang and thai) salary. Go ahead and factor in utilities and whatever scant resources your school may have accumulated. The final total, which is PURE PROFIT mind you, will shock you even more. Where does it go?? How many houses/cars has your director bought since arriving at your school?

5) Good rule of thumb when it comes to thai schools: the deeper you dig, the more disgusting everything becomes.

Awesome post.

[Ijustwannateach]

This is some interesting discussion. I hate to spoil it, but I can't resist.

If there is an English and a Thai contract, the Thai contract (and it's interpretation) take precedense over the English one.

Now, please continue. Sorry for the interruption.

I've also heard this is true- but it doesn't mean the English one isn't legal if there isn't a Thai one.

[samsara]

I've written this before, but it bears repeating: At some point in the past, I worked at a public school in Thailand. That school paid me roughly 30K a month. I was teaching roughly the entire school, one period per week at a time, class-by-class. Each of the roughly 1000 students was paying an extra 1000B a month for the privilege (I later learned) for my presence. That's a cool million a month. In my books, that makes 1,000,000-30,000 per month profit. I wonder where it went.

"Steven"

usually it's only 200-500 per term but same principle in the end: thai school rakes in the profit via some english "program".

my personal favorite when discussing the various nuances of a thai school's budget is when the school complains how it has to pay so much for such trivial and altogether nominal items such as electricity (when it doesnt even turn on the air but for 2 days a month!), water (ha), paper (haha), toner/ink (hahaha), and the guard (wow). sometimes its hard to decide which is more depressing: that they actually have the gall to say such things (and expect you to believe them!) or how so many resources are no doubt being siphoned off by someone (umm, the director et al) at the expense of everyone else at the school.

every country has problems in terms of its education system, but thailand may just take the cake.

btw, do read and reply with any info to my other topic cause id really like to get to the bottom of it. thx

[Ijustwannateach]

Both the spelling fracas and the salary windup are off-topic and have been removed.

[TerryLH]

What is awesome about "...a bunch of generalizations that DO NOT hold true universally..."?