Usufruct 75 Baht

[Bomonster]

hi,

I have researched the topic and found this to be my best option. I spoke to the selling agents lawyer who says the new gov (m) have not agreed this route so he cannot do it Hmm, yet he will set up an illegal company.hhhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllp

[quiksilva]

1. Get your own lawyer.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

1. Get your own lawyer.

[Bomonster]

1. Get your own lawyer.

thanks but nobody has heard of it even the slling agents did not.

[quiksilva]

Then I suggest you have not yet found a capable legal consultant, or selling agent. Some people can only read from the hymn sheet they've been given.

Talk to one of the forum sponsors, who are reputed to offer reasonable prices and good service, or search in this forum for the names of other legal advisors.

Edited October 3, 2007 by quiksilva

[Irene]

hi,

I have researched the topic and found this to be my best option. I spoke to the selling agents lawyer who says the new gov (m) have not agreed this route so he cannot do it Hmm, yet he will set up an illegal company.hhhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllp

How can you rely on the seller's lawyer to advise you on the route. Conflict of interest! Other writers are correct-get your own lawyer.

[chownah]

Does anyone have a usufruct already and can they tell us exactly what it is comprised of?...isn't it just a statement of its terms and is written on the back of the Chanote....it can't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to do this...it seems like there should be some cometent boiler plate that could be used for this simple task

Chownah

[lannarebirth]

Does anyone have a usufruct already and can they tell us exactly what it is comprised of?...isn't it just a statement of its terms and is written on the back of the Chanote....it can't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to do this...it seems like there should be some cometent boiler plate that could be used for this simple task

Chownah

I'm not a party to a usufruct contract, but here is a sample of what one may look like:

http://samuiforsale.com/P-7.htm

[cathyy]

We had Sunbelt Asia assist us in getting our usufruct. It was, indeed, 75 baht. I do recommend them. I don't think doing it yourself is a good idea; there are a number of issues, not all of them obvious, that must be set out in the document specifically, such as insurance and repairs and maintenance and any fees associated with your house assessed by the development to pay for the services they provide. Sunbelt very graciously customized the usufruct contract to suit our situation.

[Bomonster]

We had Sunbelt Asia assist us in getting our usufruct. It was, indeed, 75 baht. I do recommend them. I don't think doing it yourself is a good idea; there are a number of issues, not all of them obvious, that must be set out in the document specifically, such as insurance and repairs and maintenance and any fees associated with your house assessed by the development to pay for the services they provide. Sunbelt very graciously customized the usufruct contract to suit our situation.

hmm they charge 9k fo draft 9 k for yellow book 9k for prof registration, a tad more than 75 baht, oh plus the land reg fee 15k

[quiksilva]

What is peace of mind worth?

[chownah]

Bomonster,

I guess the situation is that there is a piece of property for sale (maybe with a house I guess) and instead of buying it you want to usufruct it. If this is the scenerio then first you must talk with the owner and ask them if this is acceptable to them.....their selling agent will do everything to stop you from doing this because it probably means that s/he will lose their commission....because a usufruct is not a sale....it is more like a rental agreement.

Chownah

[cathyy]

hmm they charge 9k fo draft 9 k for yellow book 9k for prof registration, a tad more than 75 baht, oh plus the land reg fee 15k

I take it you haven't actually talked to Sunbelt Asia, then.

Look, you need correct information, and you aren't going to get it from the seller's lawyer. Get your own lawyer, or suffer the consequences.

[timonase]

Hello all,

i can only second the advice to find a legal adviser. Sunbelt did it for us. Very professional and had no problems.

Also, i believe the prices are fair, for peace of minds sake.

regards

Timo

P.S I have heard from one person that did it by himself, but then this was a lawyer living in thailand, knowing what to do.

[chownah]

I guess that anyone who is not confident in their own ability to understand and modify an agreement should get legal assistance. On the other hand people who have confidence in their ability to understand and modify a simple usufruct agreement probably don't need to get legal advise. A usufruct agreement is a very simple thing and if some more people would post copies of their agreements here I'm sure that the more confident people would be able to read through them and pick out the clauses that they need for their particular situation. People who don't have the confidence by all means go and hire someone to write one for you and then post it here so that we may all benefit.

Also, there is a Thai law about usufruct agreements....I think. Can someone reproduce that portion of the law here? It seems like the law says that a usufruct can be transfered and that after being transfered it will last for the life of the recipient. Anyway this is what I think I remember having read and I was very surprised to read this because it seems to imply that a usufruct agreement could be easily stretched for a period longer than the life of the original beneficiary.....anyone know of what the law says about usufructs?

Chownah

Edited October 4, 2007 by chownah

[cathyy]

Also, there is a Thai law about usufruct agreements....I think. Can someone reproduce that portion of the law here? It seems like the law says that a usufruct can be transfered and that after being transfered it will last for the life of the recipient. Anyway this is what I think I remember having read and I was very surprised to read this because it seems to imply that a usufruct agreement could be easily stretched for a period longer than the life of the original beneficiary.....anyone know of what the law says about usufructs?

I don't know what the law says. I do know our contract explicitly gives us the right to transfer the usufruct, but we must give the owner written notice of said transfer. That seriously implies that no consent from the owner is needed, and that's the way I like it. It specifically excludes transfer by inheritance, though. If we were to transfer our usufruct to some much younger person it would indeed extend the life of the usufruct significantly.

[Bomonster]

We had Sunbelt Asia assist us in getting our usufruct. It was, indeed, 75 baht. I do recommend them. I don't think doing it yourself is a good idea; there are a number of issues, not all of them obvious, that must be set out in the document specifically, such as insurance and repairs and maintenance and any fees associated with your house assessed by the development to pay for the services they provide. Sunbelt very graciously customized the usufruct contract to suit our situation.

bet you are on the pay roll, 27k for totally unecessary work

[Bomonster]

Also, there is a Thai law about usufruct agreements....I think. Can someone reproduce that portion of the law here? It seems like the law says that a usufruct can be transfered and that after being transfered it will last for the life of the recipient. Anyway this is what I think I remember having read and I was very surprised to read this because it seems to imply that a usufruct agreement could be easily stretched for a period longer than the life of the original beneficiary.....anyone know of what the law says about usufructs?

I don't know what the law says. I do know our contract explicitly gives us the right to transfer the usufruct, but we must give the owner written notice of said transfer. That seriously implies that no consent from the owner is needed, and that's the way I like it. It specifically excludes transfer by inheritance, though. If we were to transfer our usufruct to some much younger person it would indeed extend the life of the usufruct significantly.

just before you snuff it you can lease to another for 30yr( if you were bad that is)

[Bomonster]

What is peace of mind worth?

a fool and his money are easily parted, you may need the cash to get home if the gov changes for the worst

[Bomonster]

hmm they charge 9k fo draft 9 k for yellow book 9k for prof registration, a tad more than 75 baht, oh plus the land reg fee 15k

I take it you haven't actually talked to Sunbelt Asia, then.

Look, you need correct information, and you aren't going to get it from the seller's lawyer. Get your own lawyer, or suffer the consequences.

you are definately on the payroll. what you just said is a paradox... lawyers all should play fair, obvously all have their own finacial agenda ( lawyer, solicitor.... solicit ..penny dropped yet?

[ThaiLawOnline]

If you need to draft a usufruct agreement, we can do it.

And to my knowledge, it's not 75 baht. I believe it's 100 baht (to register) + 50 baht (tax when the contract is done for free meaning the usufructuary don't pay money to get this right.).

Now, it might be different in each land department. And there are few things that were not mentionned, about the use of the land, the kind of title deeds, etc.

The contract should be done in Thai (the land department won't understand English).

We do English and Thai for that price.

We need a copy of your title deeds, passports, Thai ID, Ta bian ban.

You can fax us all documents and we will send you the contract (email, fax, etc.).

This doesn't include a title deed search that normally has to be done.

We can also register it anywhere in Isaan for you.

For some people, a lease or superficies might be a better solution (transmission to heirs, etc.).Each case is different and you will need to talk to a lawyer, explain him/her your situation and show the documents to get a real legal advice.

Edited October 12, 2007 by Totster

[joskydive]

I have all 12 sections of the usufruct law to hand. Do you still need it?

[cathyy]

you are definately on the payroll. what you just said is a paradox... lawyers all should play fair, obvously all have their own finacial agenda ( lawyer, solicitor.... solicit ..penny dropped yet?

Lawyers are paid by their client to represent (solicit) the interests of their client. Judges are the ones who are supposed to be fair and impartial. Why, then, would a lawyer representing the seller try to do what's in your best interest? That would indeed be unethical by that lawyer. It sounds to me like your seller's lawyer is representing them well. It also could be that the lawyer is not familiar with the usufruct, as it is not common.

As far as me being on the payroll, I'm certain that somebody from Sunbelt can confirm that I am not. Sunbelt is a forum sponsor, so they have no need to pretend to be anybody other than who they are.

It seems to me like you simply don't want to pay a lawyer. Fine, Don't pay one. Use the advice of amateurs on the Internet if you prefer. It's no risk for anybody but you.

[johnnyk]

Well said cathyy and a good reply to an unnecessary slaggng.

Bomonster the penny hasn't dropped for you methinks.

"Should play fair"? 555

Yes, all children should play fair. This is the real world however, not the day care centre.

And who does not have "their own financial agenda"? My plumber does and so does the nice couple who own the coffee shop down the road.

I do hope you have one too, it's a useful thing to have in life.

[quiksilva]

What is peace of mind worth?

a fool and his money are easily parted

You come here seeking advice and now don't want to listen to it.

Its true what they say regarding a fool and his money, but it has to be within context. "Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer but wish we didn't."

“Advice is seldom welcome, and those who need it the most, like it the least.”

Good luck!

Edited October 8, 2007 by quiksilva

[chownah]

I have all 12 sections of the usufruct law to hand. Do you still need it?

That's great!!! Can you post it or do you have a link for it?

Chownah

[wolfmanjack]

I have all 12 sections of the usufruct law to hand. Do you still need it?

That's great!!! Can you post it or do you have a link for it?

Chownah

If it is up to date i would like a copy also. Mine is a few years old.

[joskydive]

Hi sorry to be so long in replying. The Usufruct Law that I have is from The Civil and Commercial Code Books 1 - 6 and this is the 6th Edition. Unfortunately, I can't find it online so here goes:-

Title V11 Usufruct

Section 1417. An immovable property may be subjected to a usufruct by virtue of which the usufructuary is entitled to the possession, use and enjoyment of the property.

He has the right of management of the property.

The usufruct of a forest, mine or quarry entitles the usufructuary to the exploitaiton of the forest, mine or quarry.

Section 1418. A usufruct may be created either for a period of time or for the life of the usufructary.

If no time has been fixed, it is presumed that the usufruct is for the life of the usufructuary.

If it is created for a period of time, the provisions of Section 1403 paragraph 3 shall apply mutatis mutandis.

Section 1403 paragraph 3. If it is granted for a period of time, the period may not exceed thirty years; if a longer period

is stipulated, it shall be reduced to thirty years. The grant may be renewed for a period not exceeding thirty years from the time

of renewal.

In any case the usufruct comes to an end on the death of the usufructuary.

Section 1419. If property is destroyed without compensation being paid, the owner is not bound to restore it; but, if he does so to any extent,

the usufruct revives to that extent.

If any compensation is paid, the owner or the usufructuary must restore the property so far as it is possible to do so, having regard to the amount of the compensation received, and the usufruct revives to that extent, but if restoration is impossible, the usufruct comes to an end and the compensation must be divided between the owner and the usufructuary in proportion to the damages suffered by them respectively.

The same rules apply mutais mutandisin case of expropriation as well as in case of partial destruction of the property or of partial impossibility to restore the property.

Section 1420. When usufruct comes to an end, the usufructuary must return the property to the owner.

The usufructuary is liable for the destruction or depreciation in value of the property, unless he proves that the damage was not caused by his fault.

He must replace anything which he has wrongfully consumed.

He is not bound to give compensation for depreciation in value caused by reasonable use.

Section 1421. The usufructuary must, in the exercise of his rights, take as much care of the property as a person of ordinary prudence would take of his own property.

Section 1422. Unless otherwise provided in the act creating the usufruct, the usufructuary may transfer the exercise of his right to a third person. In such case the owner of the property may sue the transferee direct.

Section 1423. The owner may object to any unlawful or unreasonable use of the property.

If the owner proves that his rights are in peril, he may demand security from the usufructuary, except in the case of a donor who has reserved to himself the usufruct of the property given.

If the usufructuary fails to give security within a reasonable time fixed for the purpose, or if , in spite of the owner's objection, he continues to make use of the property unlawfully or unreasonably, the Court may appoint a Receiver to manage to property in the stead. Upon security being given the Court may release the Receiver so appointed.

Section 1424. The usufructuary is bound to keep the substance of the property unaltered, and is responsible for ordinary maintenance and petty repairs.

If important repairs or measures are necessary for the preservation of the property, the usufructuary must forthwith inform the owner thereof and permit them to be carried out. In case of default by the owner, the usufructuary may have the work carried out at the owner's expense.

Section 1425. All extraordinary expenses must be borne by the owner, but in order to meet these or expenses coming under the foregoing section he may realize part of the property unless the usufructuary is willing to advance the necessary funds without charging interest.

Section 1426. The usufructuary shall, for the duration of the usufruct, bear expenses for the management of the property, pay taxes and duties, and be responsible for interests payable on debts charged upon it.

Section 1427. If required by the owner, the usufructuary is bound to insure the property against loss for the benefit of the owner; and if the property is already insured he is bound to renew such insurance when due.

He must pay the premiums of the insurance for the duration of his usufruct.

Section 1428. No action by the owner against the usufructuary or his transferee in connection with the usufruct or vice versa may be entered later than one year after the usufruct comes to an end. But in an action by the owner who could not have known of the end of the usufruct, the prescription of one year shall run from the time when he knew or ought to have known of it.

Hoping this is of use to some of you.

[cloudhopper]

Very informative Jdive - thanks for going to all the trouble.

Hopefully the owner's heirs must continue to abide by the terms should the owner "predecease the usufructuary"

Sounds like the best route for me - will report the experience...

[joskydive]

I think the last section 1428 should cover that possibility. Best of luck in your endeavours!!!