Two Buck Chuck

[Ulysses G.]

You want science?

Read this article on "Informational Cascade". It points out that many of us will change our opinions if we think that most other people think differently. "Because of this effect, groups are surprisingly prone to reach mistaken conclusions even when most of the people started out knowing better, according to the economists Sushil Bikhchandani, David Hirshleifer and Ivo Welch".

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/...ca4&ei=5070

Not so funny now.

[Ulysses G.]

Nicely derailed the topic there UG. Do you think that's like books (ahem)? People don't really enjoy reading but feel as though they ought to?

Actually, very few of my customers are "readers" when they are not on vacation. They are people who have never been without a TV who are traveling around in cheap guesthouses with little entertainment and need something to fill in their days. Reading certain books is fashionable in the backpacker culture and they need something to do, so they read a book for a few weeks.

As long as there are inexpensive, very basic rooms for rent in Thailand, I think my job is safe.

[Prakanong]

You want science?

Read this article on "Informational Cascade". It points out that many of us will change our opinions if we think that most other people think differently. "Because of this effect, groups are surprisingly prone to reach mistaken conclusions even when most of the people started out knowing better, according to the economists Sushil Bikhchandani, David Hirshleifer and Ivo Welch".

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/...ca4&ei=5070

Not so funny now.

Still hilarious - because you do not like the taste everyone else is lying about it!

It the same stupidity as if I said I think people who like asparagus are pretentious oiks as I do not like the taste.

Yes there is group think and also peer group pressure but if you think the majority of people who say they enjoy wine only do so out of pretentiousness is rather stretching it - find the science related to this and not your own limited opinions in this subject.

Given wine sales in Europe and elsewhere there must bean awful lot of people living lies - so funny!

[dominique355]

There are plenty of very good Thai wine. Although I know of none from CdeL.

As someone mentioned, Khao Yai PB Valley is a good bet. Not all of it, some of it is muck (steer clear of the Sawasdee range), but I defy anybody to try the PB Tempranillo and say it's not good. 700 baht is twice what most of us would like to pay, but this stuff is good enough to wheel out when guests come for dinner, or as a present for visitors to take back home (aong with some Lanna or Doi Tung coffee, of course). Easily as good as ost Spanish Tempranillos. You'll have to do a little research for the best year, but there we go siam-i-am, a more than quaffable Thai wine.

I just got a bottle of Thai wine as a present. It is a "PB Khaoyai" Reserve Shiraz 2001

I haven't opened it and prefer to let is rest for some time. Does someone know this one?

[Prakanong]

Nicely derailed the topic there UG. Do you think that's like books (ahem)? People don't really enjoy reading but feel as though they ought to?

Actually, very few of my customers are "readers" when they are not on vacation. They are people who have never been without a TV who are traveling around in cheap guesthouses with little entertainment and need something to fill in their days. Reading certain books is fashionable in the backpacker culture and they need something to do, so they read a book for a few weeks.

As long as there are inexpensive, very basic rooms for rent in Thailand, I think my job is safe.

I thought the "Average" backapacker would have been a "reader" - they tend to be better educated than the norm in society - most I have met are graduates or will be going to Uni.

[JetsetBkk]

UG, I get your point but alot of wine drinkers are not wine snobs. Wine is delicious and its good for you. I realized some people are intimidated and put off by the complexities of the different kinds of wines and the various food pairings, but it really isn't rocket science. The thing to do is taste a bunch of wines and figure out what kinds you like. Simple, really. And it shouldn't have to be expensive but of course in Thailand, it is.

I have no taste for wine or champagne at all and it is my theory that most other people don't either. Pretty much everyone pretends to like it because everyone else says that they do and also it is supposed to be a sign of good taste.

I've gotten a lot of close friends who are drinkers to admit that they don't like the taste of any kind of alcohol; they just like the buzz.

I do admit that some people actually enjoy the taste of wine, but I would guess that it is a very small percentage of the population. The rest were taken in by peer pressure and never outgrew it.

A rather un-scientific approach - just because you do not like it you think nobody else does but they pretend they do.

Now that is really funny - in fact hilarious.

No, not hilarious at all. Utter twaddle.

[dominique355]

UG, I get your point but alot of wine drinkers are not wine snobs. Wine is delicious and its good for you. I realized some people are intimidated and put off by the complexities of the different kinds of wines and the various food pairings, but it really isn't rocket science. The thing to do is taste a bunch of wines and figure out what kinds you like. Simple, really. And it shouldn't have to be expensive but of course in Thailand, it is.

I have no taste for wine or champagne at all and it is my theory that most other people don't either. Pretty much everyone pretends to like it because everyone else says that they do and also it is supposed to be a sign of good taste.

I've gotten a lot of close friends who are drinkers to admit that they don't like the taste of any kind of alcohol; they just like the buzz.

I do admit that some people actually enjoy the taste of wine, but I would guess that it is a very small percentage of the population. The rest were taken in by peer pressure and never outgrew it.

I guess it all depends in what culture you grew up. Most Central to Southern Europeans consider wine as normal daily food, unthinkable of having lunch or dinner without a glass of wine. Most drink their local wine, nothing fancy or pretentious, just honest wine made by the locals. It's good and - surprise - it's healthy when consumed moderately (i.e. 2 glasses per day).

These people do not pretend anything nor are they snobs.

Other people grew up in beer country and need their daily beer. Usually they have no taste for wine. That's fine, everybody is entitled to his taste and opinion. But don't disparage people just because they have a different taste!

[onzestan]

You want science?

Read this article on "Informational Cascade". It points out that many of us will change our opinions if we think that most other people think differently. "Because of this effect, groups are surprisingly prone to reach mistaken conclusions even when most of the people started out knowing better, according to the economists Sushil Bikhchandani, David Hirshleifer and Ivo Welch".

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/...ca4&ei=5070

Not so funny now.

Dear Ulysses G.

I agree that a lot of people could be classified as wine snobs, however to me they are wine idiots.

A good wine is a good wine whatever the price, same as a good beer is a good beer.

I enjoy a good glass (or bottle) of wine, and I also enjoy a good glass of beer, which in my case is belgian,

but I will NOT drink the horsepiss that some people drink just to get drunk, thats pathetic.

Anyway I don't think of myself as a snob (although others that know me might have an other opinion) it's just that

I prefer quality over quantity and I don't see anything wrong with that.

You don't like wine, fine but plse don't decide for me what my tastebuds should like, I can make my own choice thank you.

no malice intended

cheers

onzestan

[Ulysses G.]

Nicely derailed the topic there UG. Do you think that's like books (ahem)? People don't really enjoy reading but feel as though they ought to?

Actually, very few of my customers are "readers" when they are not on vacation. They are people who have never been without a TV who are traveling around in cheap guesthouses with little entertainment and need something to fill in their days. Reading certain books is fashionable in the backpacker culture and they need something to do, so they read a book for a few weeks.

As long as there are inexpensive, very basic rooms for rent in Thailand, I think my job is safe.

I thought the "Average" backapacker would have been a "reader" - they tend to be better educated than the norm in society - most I have met are graduates or will be going to Uni.

There is a big difference between being "educated" and being intelligent. Reading books because you have to for school or to pass a test is not the same as reading to feed your mind.

As to the wine thing, I never said that NO ONE likes it, I said that many people who claim to are lying. If you really have a taste for it, then I am not talking about you.

[Ulysses G.]

Yes there is group think and also peer group pressure but if you think the majority of people who say they enjoy wine only do so out of pretentiousness is rather stretching it - find the science related to this and not your own limited opinions in this subject.

Given wine sales in Europe and elsewhere there must bean awful lot of people living lies - so funny!

You really think that all those people drink alcohol because they like the taste?

How about a lot of people who like to get high and could care less what the plonk tastes like.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Ulysses G.

[Prakanong]

Nicely derailed the topic there UG. Do you think that's like books (ahem)? People don't really enjoy reading but feel as though they ought to?

Actually, very few of my customers are "readers" when they are not on vacation. They are people who have never been without a TV who are traveling around in cheap guesthouses with little entertainment and need something to fill in their days. Reading certain books is fashionable in the backpacker culture and they need something to do, so they read a book for a few weeks.

As long as there are inexpensive, very basic rooms for rent in Thailand, I think my job is safe.

I thought the "Average" backapacker would have been a "reader" - they tend to be better educated than the norm in society - most I have met are graduates or will be going to Uni.

There is a big difference between being "educated" and being intelligent. Reading books because you have to for school or to pass a test is not the same as reading to feed your mind.

As to the wine thing, I never said that NO ONE likes it, I said that many people who claim to are lying. If you really have a taste for it, then I am not talking about you.

Well to get to the level of education i am talking about you have to be pretty intelligent to in an inate way or you just could not handle the material. I also do not know anyone I have met on undergrad and post-grad courses who did not read quite widely outside the subject's studies.

I think you will also find a strong correlation between the higher educated and the book reading/buying public. Maybe its the level of book you sel attracts the types you meet.

As for liking or not liking wine I think we must disagree about people lying. I have no doubt some people do - I also have no doubt its in a much lower number than you hypothesise.

I also have no doubt there are wine snobs - I reckon thay are a minority too as most people just drink what they like - I know I do and can be as happy with a decent cheap bottle of plonk as with an expensive one but have developed a taste for some that cost a little more - these are white wines though - not a big fan of red but will drink with a meal in company.

[Ulysses G.]

I think you will also find a strong correlation between the higher educated and the book reading/buying public. Maybe its the level of book you sel attracts the types you meet.

Plato, Nietzsche, Jung, Henry Miller, Bertrand Russell, Hemingway, Kundera, Orwell, the Dalai Lama, Steinbeck, Graham Greene, James Joyce. These are some of the authors on my shelves that I can see from my desk. Which one of these scoundrels do you think is attracting these "types" that you refer to?

[Iolare]

I’m not a wine snob--in fact far from it. Unless you think that anyone who prefers wine to beer is a snob by definition. I admire connoisseurs of fine wine, and I’m happy to defer to them when out to dinner. That’s not my passion though, I’d rather spend those discretionary dollars or baht on fishing or golf or collecting antique chinese rugs, or flying airplanes. I started this thread because i was just hoping it would lead to a modest drinkable Thai wine source. I enjoy a glass or two of wine with dinner, and I don’t need to impress anyone or worry about what they think.

When I closed a business deal in my younger days, my wife and I celebrated with a bottle of Dom Perignon at about $100. Later we switched to Perrier Joulet at about $50. My wife liked the art nouveau bottle, and we both liked the taste almost as much as the Dom Perignon. Later, we found that a special occasion was celebrated just as successfully with a bottle of Korbel Brut at $10. For our annual New Year’s party we always bought a few cases of Freixenet Cordon Negro for about $5 a bottle everyone seemed to have a good time with that bubbly too. So, while the Dom tasted better than the freixenet, the latter proved to be good enough for me.

The foregoing probably says more about me than the wine, but the point is that for us the cheaper was good enough, and I’m not a wine snob. We tried the André too, but that was our cutoff point. There’s a principal of diminishing returns as the price point goes up. The Dom is better, but it is not twenty times better, at least not to me.

i think Jingthing is spot on with his point about price resistance. I won’t swear off wine totally in Thailand if 500 baht is that freixenet / André type of break point, but i won’t buy it every often either.

Let’s say I wanted to have a bottle of wine on my table 3 or 4 times a week. At 500 baht that’s about 100,000 baht for a year or around $3,400 USD, compared to about $400 for the two buck chuck in the US. So even though I can afford it (that $3000 difference doesn’t even begin to equal the property tax savings), at some price point it becomes a matter of principal (or frugality). For me it comes at about 250 to 300 baht.

I don’t hate Thailand because of the price of a bottle of wine, but it just seems out of whack that a couple of glasses of wine should cost about 300 baht, while a couple of bottles of beer cost only 50. So, while in Thailand I’ll spend my discretionary money on fishing and golf. In the US, I’ll spend it on the same thing plus wine with dinner.

But in the meantime, if anyone finds that mythical 200 to 300 baht decent bottle of wine here, please post it, and I promise to do the same.

[Prakanong]

I think you will also find a strong correlation between the higher educated and the book reading/buying public. Maybe its the level of book you sel attracts the types you meet.

Plato, Nietzsche, Jung, Henry Miller, Bertrand Russell, Hemingway, Kundera, Orwell, the Dalai Lama, Steinbeck, Graham Greene, James Joyce. These are some of the authors on my shelves that I can see from my desk. Which one of these scoundrels do you think is attracting these "types" that you refer to?

The Dalai Lama - he does not like wine

[polecat]

I just got a bottle of Thai wine as a present. It is a "PB Khaoyai" Reserve Shiraz 2001

I haven't opened it and prefer to let is rest for some time. Does someone know this one?

It's fine, as long as you didn't pay more than 500 baht for it, in which case you might be a little disappointed. Don't know the year, but I wouldn't let it rest for too long, I've a feeling this should be drunk quite young. But seeing as we're not exactly in C d'Yquem territory here, why not buy a few bottles and cellar them to see how they shape up? The best year for the Tempranillo btw is 2005.

Alternatively, why not pop an email off to the winery? They might help, they might not.

Oh and UG,

Plato - Republicans, obviously

Nietzsche - the opposite, obviously

Jung - daydreamers

Henry Miller - Sexusts

Hemingway - Ageing seamen

Kundera - Unbearably light people

Orwell - Down and outs

the Dalai Lama - didn't know he could write.

Steinbeck - Mice (and men!)

Graham Greene - Quiet Americans

James Joyce - Young artists

None of whom I would want frequenting any store of mine!

Edited October 11, 2007 by polecat

[t.s]

I think you will also find a strong correlation between the higher educated and the book reading/buying public. Maybe its the level of book you sel attracts the types you meet.

Plato, Nietzsche, Jung, Henry Miller, Bertrand Russell, Hemingway, Kundera, Orwell, the Dalai Lama, Steinbeck, Graham Greene, James Joyce. These are some of the authors on my shelves that I can see from my desk. Which one of these scoundrels do you think is attracting these "types" that you refer to?

i would say none, and you know that you were not referring to any of those authors when you talked about books popular on the backpacker scene.

i would also suggest you can see a number of grishams, andrew hicks thai girl and alex garlands the beach from where you are sitting too, but neglected to mention them.

Anyways, where in bangkok can i source these thai wines? I dont mind paying 700 baht for a decent bottle of wine, and i have been here long enough i actually believe that wine is getting chaeper. it has been so long since i have paid "normal" prices for wines i don't flinch anymore when i see the price here.

that said, i am certainly up for something good for less.

So where do i find Chateau de Loei, PB Vineyards and Klang Dong valley products? do tell.

Edited October 11, 2007 by t.s

[Prakanong]

I think you will also find a strong correlation between the higher educated and the book reading/buying public. Maybe its the level of book you sel attracts the types you meet.

Plato, Nietzsche, Jung, Henry Miller, Bertrand Russell, Hemingway, Kundera, Orwell, the Dalai Lama, Steinbeck, Graham Greene, James Joyce. These are some of the authors on my shelves that I can see from my desk. Which one of these scoundrels do you think is attracting these "types" that you refer to?

i would say none, and you know that you were not referring to any of those authors when you talked about books popular on the backpacker scene.

i would also suggest you can see a number of grishams, andrew hicks thai girl and alex garlands the beach from where you are sitting too, but neglected to mention them.

Maybe he can see the authors mentioned as they are the boks stuck on his shelves and not selling

Its not exactly the types of author people would read if they were only holiday readers is it?

Well they might if they wanted to pretend they liked to read while sipping wine they really did not like!!!!

Edited October 11, 2007 by Prakanong

[polecat]

Not too hard to find these wines. The booze shop at Paragon, next to the supermarket definitely stocks Khao Yai (inc PB). And if you fancy throwing some cash around, you can go upstairs to the special room and have a snoop around. And on Soi Convent, there's a Wine Connection (?) round the back of the Irish pub (now Malone's?). There's another one on Thong Lo. I refuse to buy from Villa now, as they are lying thieves who put ''2 for 1'' stickers on Aussie plonk like St Martins and Taras and sell it at double price. In Chiang Mai, you can try Wine Gallery, which is/was on a road heading toward the Superhighway from the moat (sorry, I left a few years ago). I think there's another distributor right at the top of Surawong Road, near the plush Italian restaurant on the corner. Maybe Rimping? Or are they like the vagabonds at Villa?

[Ulysses G.]

Its not exactly the types of author people would read if they were only holiday readers is it?

Well they might if they wanted to pretend they liked to read while sipping wine they really did not like!!!!

Now you are starting to get it.

Actually, all of the books that I mention are good sellers with the backpacking crowd. Now, how many of those who buy Ulysses, actually read the thing sitting in a bar drinking expensive wine in Patong? Your guess is as good as mine.

[Ulysses G.]

I think you will also find a strong correlation between the higher educated and the book reading/buying public. Maybe its the level of book you sel attracts the types you meet.

Plato, Nietzsche, Jung, Henry Miller, Bertrand Russell, Hemingway, Kundera, Orwell, the Dalai Lama, Steinbeck, Graham Greene, James Joyce. These are some of the authors on my shelves that I can see from my desk. Which one of these scoundrels do you think is attracting these "types" that you refer to?

i would say none, and you know that you were not referring to any of those authors when you talked about books popular on the backpacker scene.

i would also suggest you can see a number of grishams, andrew hicks thai girl and alex garlands the beach from where you are sitting too, but neglected to mention them.

Actually, all of the books that I mentioned are popular with backpackers. They seem to really impress the girls - along with a bottle of expensive wine.

Prakanong wondered if the type of books I sell wasn't attracting intellectuals, so I mentioned some that I thought they would like. Do you think that having Grisham and the Beach as well, scares them away? Almost every good book store carries both kinds of books. Can't say that I get your point.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Ulysses G.

[polecat]

Topic gentlemen, topic.

[bangkoklah]

You know what I miss about Southern California (besides the fact that it doesn't rain there)? I miss Charles Shaw wine from Trader Joe's.

A decent bottle of wine for $2. That's works out to abut 70 baht, or a case of wine for around 800 baht. I bet some of you pay that for one bottle of equivalent wine here.

Got one bottle of famous chuck last month from a friend coming from California. Did not want to waste the last drop!