Having Children Is Irresponsible.

[pete_r]

I think good old Malthus (1766-1834) deserves a mention on this thread (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthus ):

"The power of population is so superior to the power of the earth to produce subsistence for man, that premature death must in some shape or other visit the human race. The vices of mankind are active and able ministers of depopulation. They are the precursors in the great army of destruction, and often finish the dreadful work themselves. But should they fail in this war of extermination, sickly seasons, epidemics, pestilence, and plague advance in terrific array, and sweep off their thousands and tens of thousands. Should success be still incomplete, gigantic inevitable famine stalks in the rear, and with one mighty blow levels the population with the food of the world."

Thomas Malthus, 1798 (world population at the time, 1 billion).

To the OP, I've had similar thoughts as you, such as wondering if it is a poisoned gift to give life to children with all the uncertainties in the world, as well as not wanting to contribute to population growth. In my case it's a family tradition, my parents had concerns with the cold war and fear of nuclear annihilation in Western Europe, and still I'm here with my two sisters. At the moment I'm on the optimistic side, after all humans have been living with uncertainty for a long time and will continue to do so for a while.

[AlexLah]

The depopulation programs are already fully in place so do not worry that the planet Earth is gonna face a problem.

The governements are fully aware of it.

Look up:

http://www.populationcontrol.org/

Google: the Tuskegee Study

Google: Operation Silent Spring

Read: Special Warfare: May 1996: PB 80-96-2: Special Operations and LIC in the 21st Century:

The Joint Strategic Perspective: Brian Sullivan

To fight these program's you should actually multiply as much as possible.

I have other reasons why not to have children.

They make a lot of noise, ask stupid questions, cost a lot of money and they smell very bad, specially when they are in the diaper stage.

Just kidding, ha ha ha

Also interesting to see nobody reacted on my previous post where I stated some reasons why people choose to have children.

I guess a lot are in denial stage.

Take care all!

Alex

[eek]

And here begins the hop skip and jump to a Brave New World...?

[xyborg]

<br />I haven't read the whole thread but I have four children. Shock horror!!!! <br /><br />Your arguements might hold some weight but here we are with four and I wouldn't have it any other way. IMO it is the most intimate relationship you can have with a partner. Perhaps off topic but true.<br />

IT might be intimate but why do you need to have it 4 times?? Isnt one enough?

[Dupont]

This whole child rearing thing is just hormones. As mammals we have been genetically programed to enjoy sex and want kids. It is just one more weakness that can be overcome if one has the will.

Is it really necessary or even healthy to give in to every single urge we have.

Rainman, whatever reason you want to use, if you don't want kids, don't have them.

When I was a kid there were less than 3 billion of us. Now there are more than 6 billion of us. I still say if this continues a tipping point will be reached.

In the end, as I said before, something will happen to sort this all out.

Something will happen. It's survival of the fittest (genes) still. Those not up to it or not interested in it (propogation) will be extinct in the next generation.

So go along and have your careers (whatever happens and how good you think you are in your job, you will be past it by 50 and on the scrap heap by 60) your holidays, your same sex marriages, your interesting posting sessions with Mrs Rainman on the computer about not wanting families. Was nice having you along for the ride, now get your genes out of our pool!

Human race result = we win/you lose! you can PC that one up all you want but its the complete truth in this matter. Bye and enjoy your lonely old age!

My guess is when Mrs R feels the old body clock ticking, there will be offspring along, whether yours or not!!!

I've seen it hundreds and hundreds of times first hand. Not having children, not having children, not having children, not having children.... hit 30 along comes baby!!

Prediction 1: what was the one that predicted that if the rate of Horsedrawn Cabs in London continued apace throughout the 1800's, that London would be 12' deep in horse poo within 100 years?

Prediction 2: I feel all TV posters will fall in with my views on this matter and I won't need to come back later and laugh at a load of indignant sanctimonious PC bullpoo!

[Dupont]

I think that people who see the future in such bleak terms that they question whether they should have children....those people....they should not have children. Raising children should be done by optimistic people who think their children will have great lives and who will thus instill in their children a sense of optimism.....most problems are solved by optimists...those who think that there is a solution.

Well said.

My bet though is on Rainman still having children in the end (unless he's sterile or something as some other poster mentioned).

Double well said chownah.

If we took notice of 1% of the drivel that pessimists write, none of us would ever achieve anything.

[rainman]

Well, you can predict my life all you want, in the end of the day we're still going to have an overpopulation crisis on our hand in a few decades. And I think most of you are still not getting my point, I'm not pessimistic or a "doomsday follower" like some of you are saying. All of you saying that there's unlimited space for unlimited humans on our planet are living in denial. Sooner or later, we'll have to do something about overpopulation and all I'm saying it would be better to start doing something about it than just leaving it for the next generation to do.

Edited October 10, 2007 by rainman

[Neeranam]

Well, you can predict my life all you want, in the end of the day we're still going to have an overpopulation crisis on our hand in a few decades. And I think most of you are still not getting my point, I'm not pessimistic or a "doomsday follower" like some of you are saying. All of you saying that there's unlimited space for unlimited humans on our planet are living in denial. Sooner or later, we'll have to do something about overpopulation and all I'm saying it would be better to start doing something about it than just leaving it for the next generation to do.

Does the cost of having kids come into her decision? I bet it does.

I know an old lady judge(Thai/Chinese) who owns half of Bangkok. She and her husband(studied in Scotland Yard 60 years ago) are still saving their cash and haven't anyone to leave their billions to. We used to live in Sukh soi 49, nextdoor to her - she came round to take our used newspapers one day to sell and told me that she'd just sold the land nexdoor for 100million and a plot in Sathorn for 400 million- unbelievable.

[Pepe']

Indeed!

And that is why gay marriage should not only be legal, but MANDATORY.

Destined to be a classic...

[rainman]

I'm not worried who I'm leaving my cash to, don't worry. That's all arranged in my last will.

[JetsetBkk]

Well, you can predict my life all you want, in the end of the day we're still going to have an overpopulation crisis on our hand in a few decades.

People have been saying this since the &lt;deleted&gt;' sixties!

[teatree]

This whole child rearing thing is just hormones. As mammals we have been genetically programed to enjoy sex and want kids. It is just one more weakness that can be overcome if one has the will.

Is it really necessary or even healthy to give in to every single urge we have.

Rainman, whatever reason you want to use, if you don't want kids, don't have them.

When I was a kid there were less than 3 billion of us. Now there are more than 6 billion of us. I still say if this continues a tipping point will be reached.

In the end, as I said before, something will happen to sort this all out.

Something will happen. It's survival of the fittest (genes) still. Those not up to it or not interested in it (propogation) will be extinct in the next generation.

So go along and have your careers (whatever happens and how good you think you are in your job, you will be past it by 50 and on the scrap heap by 60) your holidays, your same sex marriages, your interesting posting sessions with Mrs Rainman on the computer about not wanting families. Was nice having you along for the ride, now get your genes out of our pool!

Human race result = we win/you lose! you can PC that one up all you want but its the complete truth in this matter. Bye and enjoy your lonely old age!

My guess is when Mrs R feels the old body clock ticking, there will be offspring along, whether yours or not!!!

I've seen it hundreds and hundreds of times first hand. Not having children, not having children, not having children, not having children.... hit 30 along comes baby!!

Prediction 1: what was the one that predicted that if the rate of Horsedrawn Cabs in London continued apace throughout the 1800's, that London would be 12' deep in horse poo within 100 years?

Prediction 2: I feel all TV posters will fall in with my views on this matter and I won't need to come back later and laugh at a load of indignant sanctimonious PC bullpoo!

Sums it all up...."I must have children so that my ego can continue..."

[teatree]

I know an old lady judge(Thai/Chinese) who owns half of Bangkok. She and her husband(studied in Scotland Yard 60 years ago) are still saving their cash and haven't anyone to leave their billions to. We used to live in Sukh soi 49, nextdoor to her - she came round to take our used newspapers one day to sell and told me that she'd just sold the land nexdoor for 100million and a plot in Sathorn for 400 million- unbelievable.

She is mentally ill.

[sbk]

Well, having read this thread its astounding to me how many people feel the need to attack rainman for his personal opinions on his own life. You may agree to disagree but casting aspersions on his intelligence or morals is not acceptable.

Further such personal attacks will be deleted and posters warned.

[PeaceBlondie]

Malthus and Rainman are bound to be right, eventually, in some decade or millenium. Surely we have population problems. What we've done here, thanks in part to the OP, is to overemphasize precisely what it is: a personal matter. The fact that individuals or couples choose to have individual babies is one six-billionth of the problem. Having babies doesn't mean you're ignoring the global problems. Remaining childless doesn't mean you're resolving the global problems. Blame Oscar Wilde for having children, if you wish, but enjoy his writings. My co-grandfather is the first of 15 children, and they made out just fine.

[TAWP]

If we really had the ability to feed everyone in the future, why are we not doing it now? Of course you can say millions are starving in Africa because the world just doesn't care about Africa. But is the world going to care about Africa in the future? I don't think so.

This doesn't make sense as a reason unless you are planning to become poor and move into a refugee-camp in Africa.

Edited October 11, 2007 by TAWP

[TAWP]

Most 1st world countries don't have enough children to provide a decent sized work force for the future and you want to cut the population further? Forget it!

Where do you get that rediculous assumption from - the world is over populated. The main concern of many governments is depopulation. We are actually running short of resources. Immigration is a massive problem, wake up.

No, it's not. Your second last statement shows what kind of peson you are and for what reason you state such trite and false facts.

In a lot of countries, outside the few larger cities, there is huge amounts of open space. And this without having to cut any trees down or remove farms.

The overpopulation/too crowded/no space/no food-myth is just that, a myth.

We could feed everyone in the world over without problems, if transporting the food wasn't an issue. Oh, Star Trek, where is your technology now?

[xyborg]

<br />

Well, you can predict my life all you want, in the end of the day we're still going to have an overpopulation crisis on our hand in a few decades.

<br /><img src="http://img52.exs.cx/img52/8605/h9yboredom.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /> People have been saying this since the &lt;deleted&gt;' sixties!<br />

<br /><br /><br />

1960-3billion 2007 6.5billion the rates slwoing but just think how many of them want the western standards of living all with a nice fitted kitchen, car, etc etc. Im sure it could be done but greed and lack of planning will stop it, after all why spend 100+ years growing hardwoods for a kitchen when you can chop down a forest now move on and forget it. Powering it al is another matter until sme bright spark finbds another cheap available power supply. Population controls would be a relatively and easy way to limit destruction but as for all the carbon neutral co2 bo***ocks well thats all it is in my opinion.

[t.s]

Dont worry standard human nature will sort it out - there be another world war when competition for resources gets too much. There will be another flu epademic. The world may even be getting hotter and kill us all off.

The food we eat and the water we drink is dangerous. The air we breath is polluted. The cars we drive are not safe. There is cancer. There is aids and birld flu. I cant drink or smoke cause its killing me.

Now you come along and tell us we cant have the simple joys of having children.

Exactly that is the things I don't want my children to have to go through. Why have children if they have to fight a world war just to get food? Get sick from pandemic flues, face an ever warmer climate, breathe polluted air, etc? just so we can have the simple joy of having children? That's ignorant, in my opinion.

I respect your opinion not to have children, and I believe you have good reasons to take this decision. I just hope your lovely wife fully agrees from her heart. Otherwise, you are bound to have big problems; big, big problems. Don't forget: for women this a call from nature.

Of course, she fully agrees. She actually sat here with me as I wrote this.

If we really had the ability to feed everyone in the future, why are we not doing it now? Of course you can say millions are starving in Africa because the world just doesn't care about Africa. But is the world going to care about Africa in the future? I don't think so.

i am reminded of the recent movie Idiocracy, in which the "intelligensia", like our rainman, have rationalised themselves out of having children for any one of a number of valid, but ultimately ridiculous reasons.

The result is that the great mass of ignorant unwashed procreate freely and multipl,y populating the future with their trailer trash idiot offspring. the result is a hip hop nation of morons. It is actually quite a funny construct: an anti-evolution of sorts.

Rainman, i put to you that you are the ignorant one. perhaps you should raise a child who will be aware of the worlds problems and live a life that may help change the future.

or, you could just roll over and die. better yet, take an active hand in ending you existence on this blighted planet. just a thought

[rainman]

Rainman, i put to you that you are the ignorant one. perhaps you should raise a child who will be aware of the worlds problems and live a life that may help change the future.

or, you could just roll over and die. better yet, take an active hand in ending you existence on this blighted planet. just a thought

Thanks for being so accepting of other people's opinions

[TAWP]

I would like to second that it's a great movie however, regarding the premise.

[t.s]

Rainman, i put to you that you are the ignorant one. perhaps you should raise a child who will be aware of the worlds problems and live a life that may help change the future.

or, you could just roll over and die. better yet, take an active hand in ending you existence on this blighted planet. just a thought

Thanks for being so accepting of other people's opinions

yes, i was heavy handed, more tongue in cheek than personal attack.but your rationale just strikes me as defeatist.

Edited October 11, 2007 by t.s

[Gary A]

My thoughts are more along the lines that children are smelly, noisy and destructive. Why would I want children when I know that I have no patience and I am entirely too selfish to spend time with them.

[t.s]

My thoughts are more along the lines that children are smelly, noisy and destructive. Why would I want children when I know that I have no patience and I am entirely too selfish to spend time with them.

that was my opinion too. then i had one.

[LinkPopularity]

what about this: the human interpretation of reality divers from right to left and vice versa, from emotional to rational etc. its like a pendulum movement and you can see it the arts

60 years ago the whole world was going over the edge with extreme rights thoughts and of course the consequential actions and devastations from it. and no, it was not just Hitler, it was the whole world USA and USSR included.

now we have extreme left disturbing the delicate balance of life.

people like rainman and alike are a treat to society and should be restraint by all mains.

[sbk]

Rainman, i put to you that you are the ignorant one. perhaps you should raise a child who will be aware of the worlds problems and live a life that may help change the future.

or, you could just roll over and die. better yet, take an active hand in ending you existence on this blighted planet. just a thought

Thanks for being so accepting of other people's opinions

yes, i was heavy handed, more tongue in cheek than personal attack.but your rationale just strikes me as defeatist.

Just so you know, for future reference, such comments are not taken as tongue-in-cheek and generally merit a warning. Regardless of what you post afterwards, it is a very offensive comment to make to someone.

[rainman]

what about this: the human interpretation of reality divers from right to left and vice versa, from emotional to rational etc. its like a pendulum movement and you can see it the arts

60 years ago the whole world was going over the edge with extreme rights thoughts and of course the consequential actions and devastations from it. and no, it was not just Hitler, it was the whole world USA and USSR included.

now we have extreme left disturbing the delicate balance of life.

people like rainman and alike are a treat to society and should be restraint by all mains.

I'm a threat to society and you're comparing me to Hitler because I'm not planning on having children? This has absolutely nothing to do with politics, left wing or right wing. If you want to discuss politics, you're in the wrong room.

Edited October 11, 2007 by rainman

[sbk]

This is the last public warning on this thread

If you cannot refrain from personal abuse against someone who's opinion you disagree with you will find yourself warned.

NO PERSONAL ATTACKS!!!!!

And yes, that indicates me being completely fed up.

[rainman]

I have to apologize. My thread title was probably a bit off. As you may have all read, through the whole thread I haven't said that you shouldn't have children, I just stated that in my opinion, 1-2 should be the limit for the sake of humanity's future. I personally don't see having myself having children of my own, adoption is an entirely different thing though.

[siamamerican]

I think you all read the first few lines and then decided to post a comment. I never said not to have any children, I said we should all keep it at 1-2 max.

I just read your OP and you never stated 1-2 kids was OK. If you had, the responses would be much different. Below is the only reference to having 1-2 kids.

"Don't get me wrong, I love children. If it wasn't for this, I'd probably have 1 or 2 with my wife. But what got me thinking is the amazing growth of world population."

Personally, I think having more than a couple kids will have a negative impact on future generations, but who am I to draw the line. I won't be having any because I find them to be a hassle. If I loved them like yourself, I would have a couple.