Corrupt To The Core: Beware!

[JR Texas]

I just finished a two semester stay as a visiting scholar at a well-known university in Thailand. During my stay they cheated me out of US$500 in an on-campus housing scam. They did the same thing to a visiting professor from the UK. And they cheated some visiting students from a university in Canada. Amazing Thailand! BEWARE of teaching in Thailand. I have two doctorates (one is honorary). I have been a visiting scholar at universities in many countries. I have never, ever been cheated. Thailand is truly exceptional........they think they can get away with anything. I am considering filing a complaint with the Labor Department.

[Khutan]

.... I am considering filing a complaint with the Labor Department.

Probably the best course of action.

[TerryLH]

Can you tell us what the scam was?

[Loaded]

Expose, complain and make them loose face. You won't get your money back, nor will you ever be able to work at those places again, but the guys you expose will be shamed - that's serious punishment here.

[JR Texas]

Expose, complain and make them loose face. You won't get your money back, nor will you ever be able to work at those places again, but the guys you expose will be shamed - that's serious punishment here.

Believe me.......I am tempted to tell every person on TF the name of the university in question..........I will only say that it is located in Isan. The scams are ongoing according to people that have been there for a long time.

What were the scams?

The "rent scam." While I was at a great university in China, they told me not to sign another contract there and to come to Thailand as a visiting scholar. I asked about the cost of housing. They basically said the rent would be virtually nothing. I agreed to come. After I arrived they gave me a room in the condo unit reserved for professors. There was no additional discussion about the rent because it had already been settled (verbally with the Dean). One month passed and no bill came.........I thought it was strange and asked about it, but got no answer and just wrote it off as an odd way of doing things.....two months passed and no bill.........three months passed and the bill came and it was 12 times what we had agreed on . Ask yourself why I was not presented with a bill earlier and the scam becomes obvious.

The visiting professor from the UK was also charged 12 times what she thought she was be charged.

The visiting students were simply overcharged for everything.

All of us are upset and will have nothing good to say about the university in question. I am the acting editor of a peer review scientific journal. What that means, in part, is that I know a lot of scholars worldwide. And make no mistake, I will be letting them know about this. The professor from the UK will also be talking along with the students from Canada.

The thing that amazes me most is that they think they can get away with it. It is sad.....another reflection of the corruption that has taken hold of all of Thailand's institutions.

[torrenova]

So you think you were charged 12 times the verbally agreed price ?

What verbally agreed price do you infer from your statement "They basically said the rent would be virtually nothing" ? I cannot place a figure on any amount.

So you lost $500 which must be 12 times the amount you thought it would be for you accept a nominal payment and lose. $500 / 12 is approximately $40.

So you expected to pay $40 for 3 months accommodation and services ?

Am I missing something here ?

[OlRedEyes]

Sorry, but scammed and ripped off in Thailand? But it happens everywhere

Sorry JR, but I couldn't resist. I know you are pissed off, rightly so.

Scams and ripoffs in Thailand are prevalent not only in the bar scene. They're *everywhere*. Verbal agreements don't exist. hel_l, even signed contracts are pretty useless.

[JR Texas]

Sorry, but scammed and ripped off in Thailand? But it happens everywhere

Sorry JR, but I couldn't resist. I know you are pissed off, rightly so.

Scams and ripoffs in Thailand are prevalent not only in the bar scene. They're *everywhere*. Verbal agreements don't exist. hel_l, even signed contracts are pretty useless.

The agreed rent was virtually nothing and was increased 12 times.......not sure why that is not clear......the issue is the SCAM.....not the amount of the scam....and the fact that THEY do not think there is anything wrong with it.

Visiting scholars/professors/students are seen as MARKS for various scams. Yes, this happens all over Thailand. That is the problem. It is an ethical problem that needs a solution.

I will state again that this has never happened to me at any other university I have been at in the world........and I have visited/taught at a lot of them worldwide. There is something about Thai culture that seems to accept this type of thing as both normal and moral. But what goes around eventually comes around.

There were other scams at this university: 1) the Dean's were getting big money to fund their programs (much of it from abroad) and using it to fly all over the world and stay at 5-star hotels; 2) the Music Dept. was giving some big money from abroad to purchase new instruments and went out and purchased the worst and oldest instruments they could find......the rest of the money went into the pocket of the Dean.

I will not discuss it.....but similar things were happening at another Thai university I was at several years ago........it is normal here.

[mopenyang]

Sorry, but scammed and ripped off in Thailand? But it happens everywhere

Sorry JR, but I couldn't resist. I know you are pissed off, rightly so.

Scams and ripoffs in Thailand are prevalent not only in the bar scene. They're *everywhere*. Verbal agreements don't exist. hel_l, even signed contracts are pretty useless.

The agreed rent was virtually nothing and was increased 12 times.......not sure why that is not clear......the issue is the SCAM.....not the amount of the scam....and the fact that THEY do not think there is anything wrong with it.

Visiting scholars/professors/students are seen as MARKS for various scams. Yes, this happens all over Thailand. That is the problem. It is an ethical problem that needs a solution.

I will state again that this has never happened to me at any other university I have been at in the world........and I have visited/taught at a lot of them worldwide. There is something about Thai culture that seems to accept this type of thing as both normal and moral. But what goes around eventually comes around.

There were other scams at this university: 1) the Dean's were getting big money to fund their programs (much of it from abroad) and using it to fly all over the world and stay at 5-star hotels; 2) the Music Dept. was giving some big money from abroad to purchase new instruments and went out and purchased the worst and oldest instruments they could find......the rest of the money went into the pocket of the Dean.

I will not discuss it.....but similar things were happening at another Thai university I was at several years ago........it is normal here.

If you know it to be so "normal here" because of your prior and most recent experiences, then why are you so upset and surprised by it?

I doubt anyone here can remedy your perceived injustice and without your identifying the university in question, I don't see anything of significance coming from your general warning.

You need to take your case to the people responsible for the problem and also those responsible for fixing it.

Time for another cup of coffee.

[PeaceBlondie]

mrhippo and the rest of us WILL NOT take cheap shots at posters' use of English unless they make an arse of themselves as a critic of other people's English.

JR, sorry to hear it. A late professor from Australia told me a very similar story about an offer of free housing in Chiang Mai at the oldest government school (duhh, not saying which one), plus a reduction in quoted salary as well. According to his story, he never served one day there, because he caught the scam up front.

JR, I never heard of a real Ph.D. professor counting his honorary degrees for academic purposes, but I don't travel in those circles. You're a wiser man now, but you'd been to Thailand before. Perhaps you recall that old song about the serpent, where he bites Eve and tells her, "But you knew I was a snake, before you let me in!!"

[Ijustwannateach]

In terms of professionalism in schools by Western standards, Thailand has generally been the least professional country in which I have ever worked. The administrators lie, cheat, skim money off every possible project, and exploit the Thai and foreign workers as much as they can get away with. Many administrators openly break labour and immigration laws; possibly don't even know what many of them are.

That said, I do know of places where they obey the law, treat employees decently, and more or less go by the contracts; however, you have to be persistent and driven to find such places, qualified enough to work in them once you do find them, and willing to waste the time that such a process requires.

"S"

[JR Texas]

mrhippo and the rest of us WILL NOT take cheap shots at posters' use of English unless they make an arse of themselves as a critic of other people's English.

JR, sorry to hear it. A late professor from Australia told me a very similar story about an offer of free housing in Chiang Mai at the oldest government school (duhh, not saying which one), plus a reduction in quoted salary as well. According to his story, he never served one day there, because he caught the scam up front.

JR, I never heard of a real Ph.D. professor counting his honorary degrees for academic purposes, but I don't travel in those circles. You're a wiser man now, but you'd been to Thailand before. Perhaps you recall that old song about the serpent, where he bites Eve and tells her, "But you knew I was a snake, before you let me in!!"

Thanks for your post............maybe I should not have mentioned the honorary doctorate. One of my doctorates is real (from lots of hard work) and the other was presented to me as a result of a lifetime of work. I just wanted people to know that they are willing to SCREW any person irregardless of their academic status. This is actually the second time I have been cheated at an academic institution in Thailand. The first time was 16 years ago. "The more things change, the more they stay the same." Obviously, this is widespread. Equally obvious is that it is giving Thailand a very bad reputation.

[samran]

JR sorry to hear, that is very bad form on their part, but not unsuprising. As others have said, Labour court sounds like the way to go. Don't pay anything until they show you where you are obligated to pay them that money - ie tenant agreement etc.

As for your agreement, was it all verbal, or was there any of it in writing? Seems strange that nothing was signed before you came over?

[Tony Clifton]

It's no wonder this small country with a dense population of sixty million along with it's give or take 60 "universities" (maybe more, maybe less) still has to produce it's first world renown scientist, Nobel candidate/laureate.

For now we'll have to settle for Thai cuisine, Nong Nat, Thaksin ("studied" abroad), Paradorn and other quick to fade sports figures.

[JR Texas]

JR sorry to hear, that is very bad form on their part, but not unsuprising. As others have said, Labour court sounds like the way to go. Don't pay anything until they show you where you are obligated to pay them that money - ie tenant agreement etc.

As for your agreement, was it all verbal, or was there any of it in writing? Seems strange that nothing was signed before you came over?

The part of our agreement that centered on rent was written in an email from the Dean. I still have it. My salary was stipulated in a standard written contract (no mention of the rent in that contract). I signed that after arriving at the university. Basically, I was told by the Dean--the person who wanted me to leave my post in China and work in Thailand--what the rent was going to be. There was no reason for me to question her veracity. It is not that strange for a visiting scholar to accept an academic assignment prior to signing a contract....happens all the time. An element of trust is involved. They wanted me there to do research on HIV/AIDS, teach, do workshops for professors, and assist professors and graduate students with their research. Normally universities do not go out of their way to upset visiting scholars.......for obvious reasons. There were many "farangs" at the university, and all of them had a story to tell about corruption.

[Flow]

In terms of professionalism in schools by Western standards, Thailand has generally been the least professional country in which I have ever worked. The administrators lie, cheat, skim money off every possible project, and exploit the Thai and foreign workers as much as they can get away with. Many administrators openly break labour and immigration laws; possibly don't even know what many of them are.

That said, I do know of places where they obey the law, treat employees decently, and more or less go by the contracts; however, you have to be persistent and driven to find such places, qualified enough to work in them once you do find them, and willing to waste the time that such a process requires.

"S"

This post basically sums everything up. Rule number one, never trust a Thai. Especially your employer.

[madjbs]

Sounds like a bad uni. What province is it in and is it government or private?

[Flow]

I no longer teach.

But I have done for years.

Examples of dishonest management:

1. Was promised a bonus at the end of my contract with Siam Computer. Finished my 1 year contract, went to the head office to pick up my check. Surprise surprise, there was no check. When I inquired with the Thai and farang managers he told me that I had signed an old contract and that there would be no bonus. When I told him that I would not leave his school without my bonus his reply was "you either get out now or I'll call the police".

2. I did summer camp for this school. Worked my as off for 1 whole month. At the end of the month everyone collected their pay. I did not. Apparently accounting had forgotten this extra part-time teacher they had taken on just for the summer. Go figure.

3. Got a uni job. They needed an experienced someone urgently. They were paying decent money. 1000 Baht an hour 6 hours a day which amounted to 6000 a day for 4 weeks. They promised a share of the profits after the course. I got... zero Baht.

In Thailand you'd better look after your 'd@mn" self first or they'll screw you. That's right, YOU first. Students second. And even after all the years living in this country I still get screwed occasionally TIT

[David1962]

You seem to be a well educated, highly intelligent individual. However, I think you need to be more aware and 'streetwise' in your approach. Thailand is notorious for this type of behaviour! In fact, if you don't agree to your 'terms and conditions' before you commence employment - you are in trouble.

The element of trust can sometimes backfire (I know through experience). ALWAYS, and I repeat, ALWAYS ensure both parties' agree to the contract. (All the terms and conditions of employment should be included, if not, demand them!) If you don't do this; you could be setting yourself up for a big fall.

Sorry to hear about your misfortune, but, I would just put this one down to experience and learn from it. I doubt you will be able to recover your losses - especially from the Thais.

JR sorry to hear, that is very bad form on their part, but not unsuprising. As others have said, Labour court sounds like the way to go. Don't pay anything until they show you where you are obligated to pay them that money - ie tenant agreement etc.

As for your agreement, was it all verbal, or was there any of it in writing? Seems strange that nothing was signed before you came over?

The part of our agreement that centered on rent was written in an email from the Dean. I still have it. My salary was stipulated in a standard written contract (no mention of the rent in that contract). I signed that after arriving at the university. Basically, I was told by the Dean--the person who wanted me to leave my post in China and work in Thailand--what the rent was going to be. There was no reason for me to question her veracity. It is not that strange for a visiting scholar to accept an academic assignment prior to signing a contract....happens all the time. An element of trust is involved. They wanted me there to do research on HIV/AIDS, teach, do workshops for professors, and assist professors and graduate students with their research. Normally universities do not go out of their way to upset visiting scholars.......for obvious reasons. There were many "farangs" at the university, and all of them had a story to tell about corruption.

[PadThaiGuy]

In terms of professionalism in schools by Western standards, Thailand has generally been the least professional country in which I have ever worked. The administrators lie, cheat, skim money off every possible project, and exploit the Thai and foreign workers as much as they can get away with. Many administrators openly break labour and immigration laws; possibly don't even know what many of them are.

That said, I do know of places where they obey the law, treat employees decently, and more or less go by the contracts; however, you have to be persistent and driven to find such places, qualified enough to work in them once you do find them, and willing to waste the time that such a process requires.

"S"

This post basically sums everything up. Rule number one, never trust a Thai. Especially your employer.

Yes, they will even screw you on the price of a bottle of drinking water.

No shame.

[h5n1]

you should well know by now of these scams, they are rife in your industry. schools make as much on scamming teachers as they do revenue on students.

you should have packed your bags and left back to china but before - threaten to go to the abbot at the largest temple in the city and the most local temple and lose them some major face, threaten to file a complaint w/ police - then DO FILE! if you dont then all you are is a thief as you do owe something.

if you donthave anything in writing per your rental agreement, despite your 2 'doctorates' you are a moron. would you ever have done that in your home country -NO

Edited October 25, 2007 by h5n1

[JR Texas]

Sounds like a bad uni. What province is it in and is it government or private?

Answering your questions will, of course, identify the university (or get close to doing that). I am going to do them the courtesy of not exposing them on TF. But it really seems obvious from all of the posters that this is a widespread problem; it is not confined to one particular university. Teachers should be role models. This is especially true for professors and those that reach the level of administration. When morality is absent at the university level, society breaks down. Maybe Thailand will grasp the value of morals in the future.

As far as my loss is concerned, it is nothing compared to the loss that students are subjected to daily as a result of the corruption. What will I do about it? I will find out who is funding them and let those funding agencies know what is happening to their grant monies. I am going to hurt them in a place they can understand. It really is amazing to me that they think they can get away with anything. They even had me write and edit a funding proposal to the Rockefeller Foundation. Now.......do they actually think I do not have the ability to contact the Rockefeller Foundation? Believe me......THEY are about to pay.

For the poster who called me a "moron." Maybe we are all morons and just do not know it. We sure act like morons. For the poster who said that everything should be in writing...........YES......in Thailand this is apparently necessary. Let me say, once again, I have been a visiting scholar at universities all over the planet and have never, ever been cheated. Congratulations Thailand! You are unique! Truly amazing!!!

[Tony Clifton]

We`re talking about extreme corruption here in establishments that dare call themselves UNIVERSITIES and openly rip-off teachers, students AND the agencies that fund them.

No one has yet called these people scum or anything of the sort but JR Texas has already been bashed twice.

Reporting it here could be very dangerous but I would make it a personal war by contacting funding agencies. Then something may get done, I said may...

Where is a country headed to with a corrupt to the bone police force and education system?

[stevemiddie]

We`re talking about extreme corruption here in establishments that dare call themselves UNIVERSITIES and openly rip-off teachers, students AND the agencies that fund them.

No one has yet called these people scum or anything of the sort but JR Texas has already been bashed twice.

Reporting it here could be very dangerous but I would make it a personal war by contacting funding agencies. Then something may get done, I said may...

Where is a country headed to with a corrupt to the bone police force and education system?

Yes. We should start calling the NAMELESS university scum, crooked to the core, unprofessional, dishonest and a shame to the Educational world.

There again..................we only have one side of the story. Personally, I would always want to hear both sides of any dispute before arriving at a conclusion. Thats just me though.

[JR Texas]

We`re talking about extreme corruption here in establishments that dare call themselves UNIVERSITIES and openly rip-off teachers, students AND the agencies that fund them.

No one has yet called these people scum or anything of the sort but JR Texas has already been bashed twice.

Reporting it here could be very dangerous but I would make it a personal war by contacting funding agencies. Then something may get done, I said may...

Where is a country headed to with a corrupt to the bone police force and education system?

Yes. We should start calling the NAMELESS university scum, crooked to the core, unprofessional, dishonest and a shame to the Educational world.

There again..................we only have one side of the story. Personally, I would always want to hear both sides of any dispute before arriving at a conclusion. Thats just me though.

The other side of the rent scam: They would tell you that they paid me an upfront bonus to help with the move from China to Thailand, so there is no problem. In other words, they paid me some money to make the transition and now they think that covers any rent scam.

As I explained to them, the bonus was only partially for the rent we agreed on and not for the inflated rent scam. But they just could not get it..........I am sure you get it. What they did was wrong and any bonus money was not meant to be seized via a rent scam.

My case aside, just read the number of complaints about the "system" that this subject has generated. It is possible we are all lying, but anything is possible. I am telling you what happened from my perspective. I am being as honest as I can.

There is something terribly wrong with Thailand's system of education. I just read in the Bangkok Post that students would be given a test to assess their "morals." I almost cracked up..........they are being given a test by people who know nothing about morals.

[simon43]

JR, you should have called their bluff. Smile nicely and say 'the Dean advised me that my rent was xxxx, if you are looking for more then you need to speak with the Dean' . . . and walk away!!

I've found that if you play their game, then they soon back down, especially if you smile and are polite whilst you are doing this ., .

Simon

[qualtrough]

I am sorry but I find it hard to make much sense out of the OP's story:

1: For some reason he doesn't mention the rent originally agreed on, but later complains that the final bill was 12 x more than was agreed, and amounted to $500. As someone pointed out, this would mean the amount originally agreed on was in the area of $40.

2. It is also unclear why, being an apparently well-educated individual with two Ph.D.s (one honorary), he agreed to pay the bill that was presented, especially in light of the fact that he claims to have evidence documenting the originally agreed cost? I wonder if he would do that back in the US? I certainly wouldn't in either country if I had a written agreement for a lesser amount.

Reading between the lines here it does seem that there is a chance that this might have been a legitimate misunderstanding on one or both partiy's parts. In any event, if the OP had written evidence of an agreement he should have presented that and not paid the bill, and if there was no written evidence he should have sought that and settled for nothing less in the first place.

Edited October 25, 2007 by qualtrough

[pumpuiman]

What happened when you presented the original e-mail to the dean to question the discrepancy?

If you didn't do this......why are you complaining?

Oh....and by the way....166 dollars a month is "virtually nothing" by many people's standards.

Edited October 25, 2007 by pumpuiman

[thaiman]

Welcome to Thailand! More to come! Keep us posted on your fight. I can't foresee a good outcome, unfortunately. good for you, though! Stick up for what's right.

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm afraid I must agree that education must be one of the most corrupt areas of public service in Thailand; however, this is pretty much true in many other countries as well. Kickbacks on textbooks and other equipment are pretty much a world-wide cliche.