Ubon National Park

[citizen33]

it's the same in Florida.

And in Switzerland. Local people pay less in shops in top tourist destinations. In the village where I live, the kids of the village can use the swimming area in the laqke free - all other pay...

An issue of nationality? I do not agree. My post is about the wider issue of dual pricing (not just national parks) and many hotels or providers of services will quote a 'farang price' and a non-farang price, which does not seem to relate strictly to nationality. Part of the structure of institutionalised discrimination of course, is that it is extremely difficult for Westerners to obtain Thai citizenship. Anyway my point was about the UK legislation which, as I understand it, would explicitly rule out discrimination based on nationality. The westerners who managed to avoid paying the full price did not do so on the basis of citizenship, but by negotiating about such matters as their employment status, their residency status, ability to speak Thai and so on. The people who mention schemes for local residents (i.e. Florida, California, the Swiss village) are bringing in something that is not equivalent. Thai's or Asian-looking people do not as I understand it get a lower price on the basis of being residents of Roi Et or Ubon.

[bergen]

As most of us (should) know, entry fee might differ from place to place, from day to day, person to person, and so on , - you never know.

I know I have paid 400 baht in Pa Them near Kong Chiam. I have also been charged 400 b in Khao Phra Wihan in Sisaket, even though I live nearby and have Thai drivers licence, - which may have something to do with the fact that I called it blackmail the first time I went with a tourist from Singapore after the the fee was doubled from 200 to 400.

I have also experienced that when going with my wife, or some other Thais, - it is often cheaper.

Edited October 28, 2007 by bergen

[bergen]

As most of us (should) know, entry fee might differ from place to place, from day to day, person to person, and so on , - you never know.

I know I have paid 400 baht in Pa Them near Kong Chiam. I have also been charged 400 b in Khao Phra Wihan in Sisaket, even though I live nearby and have Thai drivers licence, - which may have something to do with the fact that I called it blackmail the first time I went with a tourist from Singapore after the the fee was doubled from 200 to 400.

I have also experienced that when going with my wife, or some other Thais, - it is often cheaper.

Edited October 28, 2007 by bergen

[madjbs]

It's sporadic and inconsistent when and where this occurs, but I've witnessed it at Khao Sam Roi Yot, as an example.

I went to Khao Sam Roi Yot last year and didn’t pay a penny. There were 2 Thaïs and 2 farangs as well as the car so the actual price should have been about 900 baht. The gate guards must have taken pity on us as they told us they would let us off having to pay as we were all young and not rich looking and that we should just drive past any check points. Didn’t even have to show any Thai related cards, they just took our word for it. We didn’t get any tickets either so it’s a good job we didn’t come across any other checkpoints.

Edited October 28, 2007 by madjbs

[sriracha john]

It's sporadic and inconsistent when and where this occurs, but I've witnessed it at Khao Sam Roi Yot, as an example.

I went to Khao Sam Roi Yot last year and didn’t pay a penny. There were 2 Thaïs and 2 farangs as well as the car so the actual price should have been about 900 baht. The gate guards must have taken pity on us as they told us they would let us off having to pay as we were all young and not rich looking and that we should just drive past any check points. Didn’t even have to show any Thai related cards, they just took our word for it. We didn’t get any tickets either so it’s a good job we didn’t come across any other checkpoints.

Another testament to the highly inconsistent nature of this problem-ridden debacle. Until it's fixed, the racism persists.

[plachonubon]

I went to pha diem in Ubon my brother in-law politely argued that it was v expensive and the price was halved!

I recently returned from a trip to the UK and walked away from many places as the entrance fee was too high!!

If you are local to an area in the UK and prove it you can get in the places free or at a reduced rate!! same idea as they have here!

the pricing system is not really fair but we do earn 10X what a Thai does (generally) so stop moaning

I have never come across a mechanism whereby locals in the UK get things at a reduced rate (apart from perhaps in the informal economy) and would be interested to hear some concrete examples. There are some differences in the provision of public services within the four home countries following devolution, but these apply to all residents of each country and are really 'cross boundary' issues.

Two points worth making are:

(1) UK public museums and many art galleries are now free to all.

(2) The Race Relations Act, 1976 includes the following provision:

s20. Provision of goods, facilities or services.

— (1) It is unlawful for any person concerned with the provision (for payment or not) of goods, facilities or services to the public or a section of the public to discriminate against a person who seeks to obtain or use those goods, facilities or services—

(a) by refusing or deliberately omitting to provide him with any of them; or

(b ) by refusing or deliberately omitting to provide him with goods, facilities or services of the like quality, in the like manner and on the like terms as are normal in the first-mentioned person’s case in relation to other members of the public or (where the person so seeking belongs to a section of the public) to other members of that section.

As others have observed, dual pricing in Thailand is usually explicitly on the basis of ethic or racial category rather that local area of residence. Anything similar in the Uk would be unlawful, and it is most certainly not the 'same idea'.

O.K.

if you from Bath and north east somerset you can get a B@NES card for free give bank statement showing addres (easy , i not lived there for 6 years and can do)card lasts for 3 years gives me some free and many reduced entries to local sites.

you not sure call 0044 1255 477867 to find out more.

meanwhile my Thai wife pays FULL...........you happy?

[citizen33]

O.K.

if you from Bath and north east somerset you can get a B@NES card for free give bank statement showing addres (easy , i not lived there for 6 years and can do)card lasts for 3 years gives me some free and many reduced entries to local sites.

you not sure call 0044 1255 477867 to find out more.

meanwhile my Thai wife pays FULL...........you happy?

Well I did say that this issue results in polarised views! Surely though, a pre-joined membership card scheme giving discounted admission to listed attractions is not a very good analogy to the Thai situation. To be eligible for the B&NES Discovery card you need to be able to show that you are a council tax payer in that area, rather than establish anything about race, nationality or citizenship status (if one of these rare schemes existed in my area my Thai wife and I could both join). Even then, it looks to me as if a pre-joined membership scheme is necessary to take advantage of the weaker requirements on dual pricing applying to private clubs in the UK equality legislation. A better analogy is a recently reported case in Llanberis, where an attempt to charge less for car parking to Welsh speakers led quickly to a visit from the Equality & Human Rights Commission.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1770

Edited October 29, 2007 by citizen33

[toptuan]

Its not even close to a scam, if you choose to pay the entry fee then thats your problem, nobody forced or tricked you into it did they? it is called demand and supply.

Ah, not entirely true. Do you know why the Thai price is always in Thai script (they usually do not use Arabic numerals), and the "farang" price (not labeled as such, of course) is always in Arabic script? There's a certain amount of duplicity involved.

[madjbs]

I see what your saying, however the price you have to pay is still visable, you can accept or walk away.

[The Vulcan]

I see what your saying, however the price you have to pay is still visable, you can accept or walk away.

Which is exactly what I did and am urging others to adopt the same attitude until this scam is addressed.

And until such times as I see a valid explanation why Thailand feels it is justified in differentiating between its Nationals and Foreigners I will continue to do so.

Thailand is on a major campaign to attract tourists and this practice is totally counter-productive. How many visitors return home with tales of dual charging and deter others?

[toptuan]

I see what your saying, however the price you have to pay is still visable, you can accept or walk away.

Which is exactly what I did and am urging others to adopt the same attitude until this scam is addressed.

And until such times as I see a valid explanation why Thailand feels it is justified in differentiating between its Nationals and Foreigners I will continue to do so.

Thailand is on a major campaign to attract tourists and this practice is totally counter-productive. How many visitors return home with tales of dual charging and deter others?

The only problem with this advice is when you are with Thai friends. I've been in this situation many times, and early-on always voiced my objections. However, often your Thai friends become quite embarrassed at your behavior and they lose face among themselves (because they are Thai), with the park officials, and anyone else around. It's worth the extra baht to me just to keep harmony in the group and spare the feelings of my good Thai friends; so I put up and shut up. A number of them always notice the discrepancy, and appreciating my tactfulness, usually inform me privately that they are sorry about the admittance fee, and apologize profusely. That's when I know I did the right thing. I also remind myself that I'm still a guest (I know, a 10X paying guest) in this country, and I'm not here to change Thailand.

If alone or with farangs of equal opinion, I WOULD walk away after clearly stating my objections to the officials who are extorting the 10X rate.

Edited October 29, 2007 by toptuan

[madjbs]

Well there is a number of reasons they could justify it by.

1. Thai nationals have to pay tax on their earnings while tourists do not pay tax in Thailand. As national parks rely on government expenditure it could be argued that they should charge more to non Thais who don’t pay tax.

2. Generally farangs are richer than Thais which means they would normally be willing to pay extra to get into the park. The national park is taking away the benefit from the farangs who would be willing to pay more than a standard entrance fee (consumer surplus) and giving the local Thai people greater benefit by subsidizing their rate of entry. The benefit could also be used to provide better park facilities etc.. if they choose not to subsidize the Thai rate.

3. Thai people should be allowed to see their homeland for free, however, the park still needs to earn extra revenue therefore they only charge visitors to Thailand. There is no justification why a farang should be allowed to see the country as they please as after all the country is not their own.

There are more reasons as well which I can’t remember, there is also many reasons against the double pricing in the national parks which are equally as valid. Personally I am neither for nor against, however I wouldn’t enter many national parks for the full price as they are simply not worth it, many are though. I believe that currently the system is just very messy and everyone applies there own rules, therefore I would agree with the solutions given by Dr. Israngkura.

[ThaidleHands]

Well there is a number of reasons they could justify it by.

1. Thai nationals have to pay tax on their earnings while tourists do not pay tax in Thailand. As national parks rely on government expenditure it could be argued that they should charge more to non Thais who don’t pay tax.

The average tourist spends about 4000 baht per day in Thailand and with just the 7% VAT contributes 280 baht per day during his stay. Given an average length of stay of 14 days, the tourist puts nearly 4000 directly into the government coffers while only enjoy the benefit of being in Thailand for 1/25 of the year.

2. Generally farangs are richer than Thais which means they would normally be willing to pay extra to get into the park. The national park is taking away the benefit from the farangs who would be willing to pay more than a standard entrance fee (consumer surplus) and giving the local Thai people greater benefit by subsidizing their rate of entry. The benefit could also be used to provide better park facilities etc.. if they choose not to subsidize the Thai rate.

Then we might assume someone like, say, a famous ex-policeman who made his money in telecommunications should readily pay 400,000 baht to enter a Thai national park if his personal wealth or income are 1000 times that of the average farang and 10,000 times that of the average Thai. If means-testing is the point of the exercise, apply it uniformly; the Thai government could make far more from well-to-do Thais simply because there are more of them in Thailand.

3. Thai people should be allowed to see their homeland for free, however, the park still needs to earn extra revenue therefore they only charge visitors to Thailand. There is no justification why a farang should be allowed to see the country as they please as after all the country is not their own.

There are more reasons as well which I can’t remember, there is also many reasons against the double pricing in the national parks which are equally as valid. Personally I am neither for nor against, however I wouldn’t enter many national parks for the full price as they are simply not worth it, many are though. I believe that currently the system is just very messy and everyone applies there own rules, therefore I would agree with the solutions given by Dr. Israngkura.

Thailand has chosen to position itself as a tourist destination. That in particular makes it obvious that they want virtually every square meter of their country on display to foreigners.

[madjbs]

Tourists are eligible for VAT refund when they leave. Also its not true that VAT will be charged on all of that 4000 per day. Also the tourist wont always take the entire tax burden.

You can’t argue specific cases regarding individuals as its not practical or relevent, also do you really think Thaksin would be willing to pay 400,000 baht to enter? Its not just about means its about what you would be willing to pay.

If Thailand has tried to position itself as a tourist destination then my third point still stands, there is no reason to position themselves as a tourist destination if they are not going to make money from it.

The reason they have 2 prices is most likely a mix of lots of different factors, you can’t just say it’s this or that, therefore its more complicated than it appears. The reasons I have stated are economic principles so there really is no way you can argue them. However as I said earlier there is other reasons why a double proce should not be imposed, the main one being the ill feelings created.

Edited October 29, 2007 by madjbs

[downtown]

i forget which one it was but i sneaked into one of the national parks in ubon by walking around the perimeter of the park and met my missus inside, no way i will condone two-tier pricing systems

[eastbaybob]

The reason they have 2 prices is most likely a mix of lots of different factors, you can’t just say it’s this or that, therefore its more complicated than it appears.

Its not complicated at all, we pay more because we are foreigners. Complications only come into duel pricing when people (foreigners) try to justify it.

[madjbs]

Yes its because we are foreigners, but there is still reasons why they charge foreigners more. Its not something they have just pulled out of thin air for no reason.

[pgs]

Tat Ton is not worth 200B entry. 20 - 50 is fine, 100 would be almost bearable. 200+, no. SHould the fee be 'per car' instead of 'per person' whilst remaining at reasonable rates, it would not be so bad. Phi Mai I didn't mind as much as the entry fee goes partially to the repairs.

If this pricing system were to happen in Oz, how long do you think places would stay open? Taronga Zoo (Sydney) is over $30/adult entry - this makes an average family's entry over $100, so we don't go.

[The Vulcan]

Recent announcement

Seems they do listen.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=124283

[tartempion]

Caucasian Thai citizens are treated exactly the same as Asian Thai citizens or Negroid Thai citizens; it's got nothing to do with race, it's based on nationality. California residents are given many discounts that non-state residents are not given. Just one example.

it's the same in Florida.

I repeat this once again:

Everglades National Park, Florida with european passport (did not have to show though, I dont need to prove I am caucasian neither at Thai parks entrancies )

10 USD for one car, two adults, two children, ticket valid ONE WEEK.

Any Thai national park would have costed 2x400 + 2x200 = 1400 Baht for ONE entry x 7 days would be 8400

We did stay 5 days at Everglades, visited Khao Yai twice, will not go back, do plan to return Everglades soem day.

[KhunDave]

Had an interesting experience at Doi Inthanon recently (ok not Isaan, but on-topic) when my kids - mixed race - were asked to demonstrate that they could speak Thai fluently. As they could, they got the Thai child price, had they not been able to it would have been falang child rate.

[Gary A]

I really don't mind paying more, but NOT ten times more.