What Does "isaan/isarn" Mean?

[Xangsamhua]

Can anyone tell me the origin and meaning of the word "Isaan"? The Isaan region is northeast (tawan ork chiang neua) and the people's ethnicity and language is primarily Lao (with some Khmer, Suay, Vietnamese etc. thrown in). So why do we refer to the region and its people as "Isaan"? And where does the word come from? Is it Thai? A quick check in my very inadequate Thai-English dictionary simply gives the meaning as "northeast". Is it a (Sanskritic?) word like "arkhanay", meaning southeast?

Apologies for the transcription. I don't have access to Thai script.

[DavidHouston]

Can anyone tell me the origin and meaning of the word "Isaan"? The Isaan region is northeast (tawan ork chiang neua) and the people's ethnicity and language is primarily Lao (with some Khmer, Suay, Vietnamese etc. thrown in). So why do we refer to the region and its people as "Isaan"? And where does the word come from? Is it Thai? A quick check in my very inadequate Thai-English dictionary simply gives the meaning as "northeast". Is it a (Sanskritic?) word like "arkhanay", meaning southeast?

Apologies for the transcription. I don't have access to Thai script.

Interesting that you should ask that question! Rikker, a frequent contributor to this forum, has just posted an answer to your question in his blog, "Thai101" to be found at http://rikker.blogspot.com/ . His most recent article is "Different directions" in which he discusses where the Thai formal words for the various major points of the compass come from. One of those "directions" is "อีสาน". I think you will enjoy his post and the other excellent discussions of topics related to Thai language to be found on his blog.

[Xangsamhua]

Can anyone tell me the origin and meaning of the word "Isaan"? The Isaan region is northeast (tawan ork chiang neua) and the people's ethnicity and language is primarily Lao (with some Khmer, Suay, Vietnamese etc. thrown in). So why do we refer to the region and its people as "Isaan"? And where does the word come from? Is it Thai? A quick check in my very inadequate Thai-English dictionary simply gives the meaning as "northeast". Is it a (Sanskritic?) word like "arkhanay", meaning southeast?

Apologies for the transcription. I don't have access to Thai script.

Interesting that you should ask that question! Rikker, a frequent contributor to this forum, has just posted an answer to your question in his blog, "Thai101" to be found at http://rikker.blogspot.com/ . His most recent article is "Different directions" in which he discusses where the Thai formal words for the various major points of the compass come from. One of those "directions" is "อีสาน". I think you will enjoy his post and the other excellent discussions of topics related to Thai language to be found on his blog.

Thank you David. Rikker's blogspot answers my question and fills in the blanks re the other directions as well. So that's why we have a Burapha University in Chonburi and a Phayap University in Chiang Mai.

[DavidHouston]

Can anyone tell me the origin and meaning of the word "Isaan"? The Isaan region is northeast (tawan ork chiang neua) and the people's ethnicity and language is primarily Lao (with some Khmer, Suay, Vietnamese etc. thrown in). So why do we refer to the region and its people as "Isaan"? And where does the word come from? Is it Thai? A quick check in my very inadequate Thai-English dictionary simply gives the meaning as "northeast". Is it a (Sanskritic?) word like "arkhanay", meaning southeast?

Apologies for the transcription. I don't have access to Thai script.

Interesting that you should ask that question! Rikker, a frequent contributor to this forum, has just posted an answer to your question in his blog, "Thai101" to be found at http://rikker.blogspot.com/ . His most recent article is "Different directions" in which he discusses where the Thai formal words for the various major points of the compass come from. One of those "directions" is "อีสาน". I think you will enjoy his post and the other excellent discussions of topics related to Thai language to be found on his blog.

Thank you David. Rikker's blogspot answers my question and fills in the blanks re the other directions as well. So that's why we have a Burapha University in Chonburi and a Phayap University in Chiang Mai.

. . . and, a Thaksin University in Haadyai. (No relationship to the former prime minister, contrary to the understanding of most foreigners.)

[Joseph87]

English - Thai - Khmer

North: อุดร - Udon - Oudor

South: ทักษิณ - Thaksin - Toaksin

East: บูรพา - Burapha - Boupor

West: ปัจฉิม - Batchim - Boschim

Northeast: อีสาน - Esan - Eysan

Northwest: พายัพ - Phayap - Pheayoab

Southeast: อาคเนย์ - Aknai - Orknai

Southwest: หรดี - Radee - Rodei

They're formal words which were loaned from the formal Khmer language, because some of the words such as UDON, it has the "r" which was converted into "n", but in Khmer, it has "r" at the end "Oudor"

[Rikker]

Joseph87, good point. However, these aren't native Khmer words, though they may have been borrowed into Thai from Khmer. I haven't looked carefully into all of these to know which came from Pali or Sanskrit through Khmer, and which came directly from Indic languages. I referred to them in the blog as "Indic-derived" for this very reason.

Thai can have more than one form--for instance, อุดร is the version that comes through Khmer, as you've stated, and อุตร- [อุด-ตะ-ระ] is a direct form, as seen in the province name อุตรดิตถ์์ = ท่าน้ำเหนือ "northern landing".

[tamsom]

The simple meaning of the word "Isarn": half Lao/ half Thai. The French carved up some parts of "Indochine" as per a deal with Thai. My village speaks Suay and Lao.

[Briggsy]

ม ฺทักษิณที่หาดใหญ่ แต่มีม ฺ ชินวัตรที่ปทุมธานี

[Khon Baan Nok]

English - Thai - Khmer

North: อุดร - Udon - Oudor

South: ทักษิณ - Thaksin - Toaksin

East: บูรพา - Burapha - Boupor

West: ปัจฉิม - Batchim - Boschim

Northeast: อีสาน - Esan - Eysan

Northwest: พายัพ - Phayap - Pheayoab

Southeast: อาคเนย์ - Aknai - Orknai

Southwest: หรดี - Radee - Rodei

They're formal words which were loaned from the formal Khmer language, because some of the words such as UDON, it has the "r" which was converted into "n", but in Khmer, it has "r" at the end "Oudor"

Actually, Khmer was just the intermediary. I'm not sure about the non-cardinal compass points, but the four main compass points (N/E/S/W) are straight from the Sanskrit/Devanagiri roots:

उत्तर North - the middle character is a double dental T; the final character is an R, which in Thai becomes an N

दक्षिण South - the middle character is a compound of an aspirated K and a retroflex S. In Thai the first character changes from a D to a T, and the final N is retroflex in Sanskrit. The E is a short consonant.

पूरब East - the second and third characters are pronounced together in Indic languages (Purba)

पश्चिम West - the middle character is a compound of a dental (I think) S and an unaspirated CH. The E vowel is short.

I did not know this until now, because I had never learned the word before, but Isaan is, literally, Northeast in Sanskrit/Hindi:

ईशान

That spelling is EXACTLY Isaan, minus the tone. The S in Sanskrit is retroflex, which sounds like SH.

There's your answer.

I'm as surprised as you are...

S.

[CuriousGeorge77]

If thats the case, then why say that Khmer was the intermediary? Couldn't it have been the other way around, if thai is closer to the root than the Khmer?

[Richard W]

I did not know this until now, because I had never learned the word before, but Isaan is, literally, Northeast in Sanskrit/Hindi:

ईशान

That spelling is EXACTLY Isaan, minus the tone. The S in Sanskrit is retroflex, which sounds like SH.

So not exactly the same - the exact same spelling would be อีศาน. Moreover, it's a palatal sibilant, not a retroflex sibilant. The Thai spelling is the same as the Pali spelling.

Northwest: พายัพ - Phayap - Pheayoab = Skt va:yav(y)a (วายวฺย or วายว)

Southeast: อาคเนย์ - Aknai - Orknai = Skt a:gneya (อาคฺเนย)

Southwest: หรดี - Radee (No!) - Rodei (Really?) The Thai is horadi [RL]haw[H]ra[M]dii = Skt nairr.iti: (ไนรฺฤตี)

[Richard W]

If thats the case, then why say that Khmer was the intermediary? Couldn't it have been the other way around, if thai is closer to the root than the Khmer?

The usual borrowing root is Sanskrit/Pali to Khmer, than Khmer to Thai. However, Thai may have Sanskritised a lot of Pali loans on its own. The Khmer vowels have changed a lot over the years, which is why they look so wildly different. However, the spelling is usually the same as the Thai.

[Khon Baan Nok]

I did not know this until now, because I had never learned the word before, but Isaan is, literally, Northeast in Sanskrit/Hindi:

ईशान

That spelling is EXACTLY Isaan, minus the tone. The S in Sanskrit is retroflex, which sounds like SH.

So not exactly the same - the exact same spelling would be อีศาน. Moreover, it's a palatal sibilant, not a retroflex sibilant. The Thai spelling is the same as the Pali spelling.

Northwest: พายัพ - Phayap - Pheayoab = Skt va:yav(y)a (วายวฺย or วายว)

Southeast: อาคเนย์ - Aknai - Orknai = Skt a:gneya (อาคฺเนย)

Southwest: หรดี - Radee (No!) - Rodei (Really?) The Thai is horadi [RL]haw[H]ra[M]dii = Skt nairr.iti: (ไนรฺฤตี)

You are absolutely right again, Richard, on the Devanagiri. That's the last time I work from memory on the Devanagiri - Thai character mapping... When you say that the Thai spelling is the same as the Pali spelling, that would mean to me that the Pali spelling and the Sanskrit spelling are different from each other. Is that true?

Back to the original question, "Isaan" in Thai is directly derived from the Sanskrit(ic) word that means Northeast. I concur with Richard on his answer to the question of whether Khmer might be the root. There are words in Thai that come directly from Khmer that appear not have a Sanskritic root. When, however, the Khmer loan word DOES have a Sanskritic "twin", I believe that the Sanskrit word is in fact the root. There are zillions of words in Thai, and presumably in Khmer, that mirror a Sanskritic root word - Thammasat, for example, is spelled Dharma Shastra if you map them directly (though not EXACTLY, character by character). However, I'm not aware of there being much of, if any, migration into the Sanskritic languages from Khmer. The relationship between the two is more like Latin - Spanish. Latin has "fed" Spanish, but the reverse is rarely true.

That said, I'm expecting the next post in this thread to be from RichardW disproving what I've just said...

[Richard W]

I did not know this until now, because I had never learned the word before, but Isaan is, literally, Northeast in Sanskrit/Hindi:

ईशान

That spelling is EXACTLY Isaan, minus the tone. The S in Sanskrit is retroflex, which sounds like SH.

So not exactly the same - the exact same spelling would be อีศาน. Moreover, it's a palatal sibilant, not a retroflex sibilant. The Thai spelling is the same as the Pali spelling.

Northwest: พายัพ - Phayap - Pheayoab = Skt va:yav(y)a (วายวฺย or วายว)

Southeast: อาคเนย์ - Aknai - Orknai = Skt a:gneya (อาคฺเนย)

Southwest: หรดี - Radee (No!) - Rodei (Really?) The Thai is horadi [RL]haw[H]ra[M]dii = Skt nairr.iti: (ไนรฺฤตี)

That's the last time I work from memory on the Devanagiri - Thai character mapping...

Why not squeeze in one mnemonic trick? You probably know that the consonants go in the order velar, palatal, retroflex, dental, labial. The three adjacent sibilants follow the same pattern - palatal (ศ), retroflex (ษ), dental(ส). Alternatively, note that the graphic relationship between ษ and บ and between ศ and ค is also there (well, almost in the second pair) in Devanagari - compare ष and प, and श and ग.

When you say that the Thai spelling is the same as the Pali spelling, that would mean to me that the Pali spelling and the Sanskrit spelling are different from each other. Is that true?

Yes. Pali merged pre-Pali ศ, ษ and ส as ส, but a former ษ still converts a following น to ณ.

Back to the original question, "Isaan" in Thai is directly derived from the Sanskrit(ic) word that means Northeast. I concur with Richard on his answer to the question of whether Khmer might be the root. There are words in Thai that come directly from Khmer that appear not have a Sanskritic root. When, however, the Khmer loan word DOES have a Sanskritic "twin", I believe that the Sanskrit word is in fact the root. There are zillions of words in Thai, and presumably in Khmer, that mirror a Sanskritic root word - Thammasat, for example, is spelled Dharma Shastra if you map them directly (though not EXACTLY, character by character). However, I'm not aware of there being much of, if any, migration into the Sanskritic languages from Khmer. The relationship between the two is more like Latin - Spanish. Latin has "fed" Spanish, but the reverse is rarely true.

That said, I'm expecting the next post in this thread to be from RichardW disproving what I've just said...

If by 'Sanskritic' you mean Sanskrit/Pali, the only cavil I have is that Spanish descends from Latin, complicating the analogy a bit. I can't think of a clearly better example though - Latin-English-Thai doesn't work because Thai doesn't borrow directly from Latin - except possibly scientific names. (Examples, anyone?)

ธรรม seems to me to be an example of a Pali loan being Sanskritised within Thai - the pronunciation is from Pali but the spelling is principally Sanskrit. (Ro han seems to be a particularly complicated interaction of Pali and Sanskrit within Thai.)