French Man Gouged, Injured By Elephant In Rayong

[sriracha john]

After the guy had got up the elephant (having returned to the mahoot) just resumed it's position as if nothing had even happened!

Did the elephant happen to be whistling after that?

"What is everyone looking at? I didn't do anything."

[brahmburgers]

Am I right in thinking this must have been a male and that males are intrinsically more aggressive?

A couple months ago, west of Chiang Rai, I had bought some bananas to feed to elephants tethered by the riverside. One large female (the matriarch?) was jealous of me doling out bananas to smaller creatures nearby and blindsided me with her trunk. I went down in an instant, - luckily she didn't follow up with her foot.

All semi-wild beasts are capable of sudden rage. I recall the story of a zoo worker who was riding a small tractor near the hippo pond. A large female broke the fence and charged over and knocked the tractor over. The zoo worker had been particularly chummy with the hippo (no, not in that way ...rather; he'd often given her food) - so maybe the old girl was jealous of the guy riding around on another beast.

[gburns57au]

no.

most animals dont 'choose' people based on 'liking'... they choose based on instinctive qualities: hormones/smell/physical actions/ways of moving head showing teeth body postition etc....

animals dont 'sense' diddlisquat. they teach themselves reinforce patterns that they learn, based on their senses.

this is where people dont understand for instance the dogs attacking small children syndrome. how the dog sees it is not how we see it (as vicious behavior or 'bad). the reasoning behind an attack are varied. they've been discussed over and over also here on threads. but it boils down most often to lack of proper understanding of dog breed behavior and actions that occur at the time. not LIKE VS DISLIKE. just actions that caused reactions.

thats why when an animal attacks or threatens or ignores me, i dont take it personally. its not about like or dislike. its about what i did or didnt do, wear, smell, eat vocalize that was different than other times.

But you said....animals do not know 'trash' from 'non trash', they just choose whom they like or dislike...regardless of where you stand in human society.

And I said....And how do they choose who they like or dislike.....from what they can sense about that person.

It seems a bit conflicting....

[bina]

no, again, they dont sense anything about a person; they smell hormones, they see and interpret body language, they hear, i.e. they dont sense a person in the way most people use the word, like: this is a good person, this is a bad person. i think we are having english semantic problems here. and the word 'like' or 'dislike' is a subjective word, the word probably should be react/act.... but if i start using animal behavior/conditioning terminology then most poeple would drop out of the conversation, and anyway on a keyboard its annoying to get into scientific terms/theories... better in person.

so lets leave it... ive had a rought day dealing with stupid people acting like idiots and making my animals react... another day at the petting zoo. (how many people can spit at an alpaca thinking that the alpaca will spit back?) just wish he would for once...

bina

[ratcatcher]

...It is so true that animals can sense if a person is bad or good intentioned.

Yes, I am certain that Roy Horn will be happy to testify to that pipe dream.

who ???

For edification purposes, Roy Horn was the other half of Siegfried & Roy, long time Las Vegas showmen who used White tigers in their animal shows. One tiger grabbed Roy by the neck and dragged him away. Lucky not to be dead.

You never know.

[seonai]

Have you seen the Thais walking under the elephants tummy? Especially good if you are pregnant !!!!! You wouldn't catch me walking under an elephant...

Bina I can't believe people actually spit at your animals... perhaps you should get those types a cage and see how they like that

[HappyDave35]

I feel very sorry for the Frenchman, but geez whiz... the scenario of the elephant fleeing the scene comment requires much biting of the inside cheek to not chuckle.

The Star Night Plaza in Rayong is often a very crowded place at that time.... luckily there were not more injured.

Thats it !!..............just what i need for my next bank robbery.

[HappyDave35]

Don't touch his ivory ? is that slang or do they mean his tusks ?

Whatever you might think, but i would get upset if a strange man started touching my ivories !

[HappyDave35]

aswell as shaking the rooster, spanking the monkey...

Bashing the Bishop or chomping the hairy clam

[HappyDave35]

my sympathies to the injured - but just cant resist asking whether this would be the first time anyone fled from the french...?

[HappyDave35]

the tusk itself isnt sensitive its the action of putting a hand near to a part of an animal that the animal is senstive about for whatever reason: in some animals, for instance, a male sheep or male goat, petting the animal on the forehead invites getting rammed since this same touching is what an other male would do to instigate a fight (two male sheep or bucks head on with their horns).

certain movements and touching on some large parrots instigates a male mating instinct even towards u the handler; iguanas see certain movements or touches as fighting instigation (agression); smiling at certain monkeys is interpreted as aggression/dominance;

it could also be a 'head shy' type thing. anyone that has worked with animals that have been beaten on the head , a raised hand can cause either ducking and cringing and submission or the opposite, fear of being beaten or hit and aggressing towards the 'aggressor'.

we had a donkey that would charge baring his teeth if someone would lift a hand near his (the donkey's ) face.

the more intelligent the animal, the more complex the action/reaction scenario

bina

Ahhhh! thank you Bina, now i know why my neighbour gets cranky when i touch his wife up !

[TheWalkingMan]

The elephant was seen later that night in the back of a pickup heading for Surin dressed in a sequin dress and sunglasses.

Several people took photos thinking it was Beyonce on tour.

hahahahaha.

That was so wrong... But why did I laugh?

TheWalkingMan

[iforget]

Has this dangerous animal been destroyed yet?

'Osama' the serial killer elephant is shot dead - or is he?

The Independent, (London), Dec 18, 2006 by Paul Bignell A killer elephant nicknamed "Osama bin Laden" by Indian villagers because of a two-year reign of terror in which 27 people were killed, has been shot dead at a tea plantation, according to government officials.

The bull, who was nine feet tall, destroyed hundreds of homes in the north-eastern state of Assam before he was reported to have been shot on Saturday. Up to 14 people were killed by the tuskless animal in the past month alone. The latest victim, a woman, died on Wednesday.

But it now appears that the elephant that was shot may not be Osama...

You don't think.... Could it be....? I mean, an elephant that gets away with murder would probably also have to good at fleeing the scene, wouldn't it?

[gburns57au]

no, again, they dont sense anything about a person; they smell hormones, they see and interpret body language, they hear, i.e. they dont sense a person in the way most people use the word, like: this is a good person, this is a bad person. i think we are having english semantic problems here. and the word 'like' or 'dislike' is a subjective word, the word probably should be react/act.... but if i start using animal behavior/conditioning terminology then most poeple would drop out of the conversation, and anyway on a keyboard its annoying to get into scientific terms/theories... better in person.

so lets leave it... ive had a rought day dealing with stupid people acting like idiots and making my animals react... another day at the petting zoo. (how many people can spit at an alpaca thinking that the alpaca will spit back?) just wish he would for once...

bina

I think we basically agree....as you said the problem is semantic.....I was using "sense" in a fairly general way. An animal senses if someone is good or bad, not by our definition but their own. This can be smell, instinct, experience, etcetra...And in the case of Mr Roy Horn, an animal can be quite docile towards a particular human......but an external trigger can cause the animal to react and create a change in the animals behaviour towards the human and it doesnt have to be anything that the human has done.

An interesting thing I saw with village dogs in Thailand....they would avoid me or challenge me when I first arrived but after a few days would be very friendly with me...these were dogs I had been around before...the reason was, I smelt different to them in the first few days, after a few days in the village I smelt like a local to them.

Animals are very instinctive in their behaviour....so any animal whether they are domesticated or not should be handled with due care.

[Patsycat]

Now i have two images in my mind -

Nelly the elephant fleeing from a French man

and

Petite little Bina nibbling the ground and batting her eyelashes at a sheep

[bina]

i should have tried the nibbling trust me, i still ache where he bashed me with his head; and of course i got really p.od' and went chasing after him with a rope, swatting at his behind, so now when he sees me, and i lift my arm, he moves away from me (brains vx. brawn).... and i envision shwarma (sheep on over an open flame).

gburns; the funniest animal thing i ever saw, and we photo'd it , was my daughter the fearless one, the day before my wedding in korat, attempt to ride a buffalo. my husband held the buffalo and told her to get on. she did, and my husband said, dont worry and the buffalo turned around and saw a large white face on its back, and it took off leaving one farang daughter on the ground. we had thai relaltives running from all directions thinking that their new in-law's child might have been made dead by the buffalo... fortunately she got up laughing. we caught it in stills.

just another comment in semantics not specifically directed at anyone but for general knowledge: domestic means animals that have been bred for certain traits; tamed, means wild animals even if they were born in captivity that were handled to being used to people or certain people.

bina

[gharknes]

sorry if already said

she told them in french ?

[gharknes]

After the guy had got up the elephant (having returned to the mahoot) just resumed it's position as if nothing had even happened!

Did the elephant happen to be whistling after that?

"What is everyone looking at? I didn't do anything."

perhaps the elephant is unaware of the harm it can do to a smaller creature

or maybe he tought - I'll just bust a couple of ribs with my 3 tonne body to give this human a scare

[MILT]

seems almost pointless to write something here as everyone is being silly but... it's a very difficult subject in Thailand about the elephants being led around the streets for money. I don't know where I stand on it but some pointers are that - many of these elephants used to be employed with their owners in camps that did treking for tourists and have now been laid off because there are not enough tourists so the owner of the camp cannot pay them. There was a severe crisis of this nature in 2002/2003 in the Pattaya area and around when there were over 150 elephants on the streets at night selling bananas.

The elephants and their owners cannot go back to Surin because there is no money to be made there either and an adult elephant eats/needs about 300 kilos of veg/fruit a day - not cheap. In my experience talking to the Mahouts, they don't want to be wandering the streets but have no choice.

Finally, if a male elephant is in 'must' (when the oil runs down their face) it is totally irresponsible of the Mahout to bring it out as they are extremely dangerous at this time.

My wife and i have owned and operated a elephant camp outside chiangmai for the last 12 years. For starters most if not all elephants wondering in the streets whether it is here in Chiangmai or somewhere else is those Mahouts(handlers) most likely don't even own the elephant they work for folks who buy many elephants to generate money from toursit and the locals on the streets. We pay our handlers monthly salaries that cannot compare what a handler can generate in a day/night walking the streets. Elephant camps have over the years recieved many negative comments on abuse and not caring for the elephants. I can tell you that this is not the case. When my wife or I see a elephant walking the streets we offer employment and housing for the mahouts and thier families. 100% of the time we are told that more money walking the streets or the owners won't agree to work elephant camp. We pay for all the medical bills for man and beast. What folks don't understand is that the real owners of the elephants walking the streets whether it is the handler himself or just working for the real owners is that there is more money to be made on the streets. Little regard for these awesome beasts. I would suggest to anyone that if you love elephants and want to be close to them come to the many elephant camps here in the north and experience them in a safe enviroment. In our case when visitors come to our camp all the money goes directly to the care of and up keep of the elephants and the camp. Check out our website at www.elephanteco.com In my 12 years experience being around these animals everyday I can say that elephants are very much like humans. Some are very approachable and others are not. Female or males can be very aggresive. it all depernds on thier disposition. In 12 years we have had not one visitor harmed (knock on wood). Elephants can do great damage when provoked which can be caused by noises, touching, being startled, canines in the area. or just having a bad day. We have 0 tolerance to any form of abuse at our camp and the result is passive and gentle beast roaming the area. One last thought, if you see elephants on the streets make it your business to call the police or tourist police and demand that the elephant be taken to the elephant center in Lampang and the handler as well. There the elephant will be taken care of by proffesionals and the mahout will recieve proper training for his elephant. Education is the key to The domesiticated Thai elephants real chance for survival. Our Slogan is "SAVE THE ELEPHANT"....Milt

[kmart]

"Elephant football" seems to be quite popular in some parts of Thailand, so its no surprise that the accompanying hooligan element arises.

[TAWP]

Now i have two images in my mind -

Nelly the elephant fleeing from a French man

and

Petite little Bina nibbling the ground and batting her eyelashes at a sheep

I'd pay to see the latter.

[Johpa]

My wife and i have owned and operated a elephant camp outside chiangmai for the last 12 years. For starters most if not all elephants wondering in the streets whether it is here in Chiangmai or somewhere else is those Mahouts(handlers) most likely don't even own the elephant they work for folks who buy many elephants to generate money from toursit and the locals on the streets. We pay our handlers monthly salaries that cannot compare what a handler can generate in a day/night walking the streets. ....... What folks don't understand is that the real owners of the elephants walking the streets whether it is the handler himself or just working for the real owners is that there is more money to be made on the streets. Little regard for these awesome beasts.

I think most of the elephants walking the streets are Surin elephants and not elephants originally from the north. There always seem to be several men associated with the elephants which is odd as most elephants only require the single mahout (kwan chaang) for care. So I think it is probably an owner, relatives, and his mahout. Fortunately, there are not all that many elephants walking the streets. On my last visit to Chiang Mai there was but one elephant that seemed to be everywhere, but it was just the one elephant and given the large number of elephants in the region, working the tourist camps remains the preferable work option.

The biggest change over the past 20 years is the centralization of ownership of the elephants by the large elephant camp (pang chaang) owners such as Pho Liang or Mae Liang. If you go back a few decades, the elephants at camps like Mae Sa were mostly independently owned, mostly by Karen, a few of whom might own a handful of elephants. Today, the economics of the tourist business favor the elephant camp owner owning most of the animals. This is not all bad, as many of the elephant camp owners are indeed good people. But when tourism drops then it becomes difficult for the independent owner to find work placement for the animal and they may have little choice other than to hit the streets, especially the Surin people who are who are not as well networked up north where many of the tourist camps are located.

The poor status of the mahouts is another issue, and even the good owners tend to pay them little. This is partially economic and partially cultural as most mahouts are traditionally from minority groups, either Karen up north or Suai in Surin. I remember one elephant camp up in Mae Tang where I got into an argument with a manager over a sign asking tourists not to tip the mahouts. My wife is still upset at me for getting into that argument with a Thai (OK, she gets mad at me anytime I get into an argument with a Thai). But the bottom line is that an elephant camp owner has the potential to make a whole lot of money, the elephant owner can rent out his elephant to the camp owner and then make a decent return on the investment, and the mahout still makes less than minimum wage.

[Patsycat]

Perhaps the Frenchie will change his holiday plans next year and go running with the bulls in Pamplona...

[Mozikillah]

The elephant was seen later that night in the back of a pickup heading for Surin dressed in a sequin dress and sunglasses.

Several people took photos thinking it was Beyonce on tour.

LMAO!!

[Chloe82]

i was just rammed by a male sheep two days ago israel

Is this legal?

[meemiathai]

i should have tried the nibbling trust me, i still ache where he bashed me with his head; and of course i got really p.od' and went chasing after him with a rope, swatting at his behind, so now when he sees me, and i lift my arm, he moves away from me (brains vx. brawn).... and i envision shwarma (sheep on over an open flame).

gburns; the funniest animal thing i ever saw, and we photo'd it , was my daughter the fearless one, the day before my wedding in korat, attempt to ride a buffalo. my husband held the buffalo and told her to get on. she did, and my husband said, dont worry and the buffalo turned around and saw a large white face on its back, and it took off leaving one farang daughter on the ground. we had thai relaltives running from all directions thinking that their new in-law's child might have been made dead by the buffalo... fortunately she got up laughing. we caught it in stills.

just another comment in semantics not specifically directed at anyone but for general knowledge: domestic means animals that have been bred for certain traits; tamed, means wild animals even if they were born in captivity that were handled to being used to people or certain people.

bina

Is it possible we see the photos?

[meemiathai]

After the guy had got up the elephant (having returned to the mahoot) just resumed it's position as if nothing had even happened!

Did the elephant happen to be whistling after that?

"What is everyone looking at? I didn't do anything."

perhaps the elephant is unaware of the harm it can do to a smaller creature

or maybe he tought - I'll just bust a couple of ribs with my 3 tonne body to give this human a scare

I think the elephant knew what he was doing.

BTW, no porn please!

[meemiathai]

I remember one elephant camp up in Mae Tang where I got into an argument with a manager over a sign asking tourists not to tip the mahouts. My wife is still upset at me for getting into that argument with a Thai (OK, she gets mad at me anytime I get into an argument with a Thai). But the bottom line is that an elephant camp owner has the potential to make a whole lot of money, the elephant owner can rent out his elephant to the camp owner and then make a decent return on the investment, and the mahout still makes less than minimum wage.

Why is it?

[MILT]

My wife and i have owned and operated a elephant camp outside chiangmai for the last 12 years. For starters most if not all elephants wondering in the streets whether it is here in Chiangmai or somewhere else is those Mahouts(handlers) most likely don't even own the elephant they work for folks who buy many elephants to generate money from toursit and the locals on the streets. We pay our handlers monthly salaries that cannot compare what a handler can generate in a day/night walking the streets. ....... What folks don't understand is that the real owners of the elephants walking the streets whether it is the handler himself or just working for the real owners is that there is more money to be made on the streets. Little regard for these awesome beasts.

I think most of the elephants walking the streets are Surin elephants and not elephants originally from the north. There always seem to be several men associated with the elephants which is odd as most elephants only require the single mahout (kwan chaang) for care. So I think it is probably an owner, relatives, and his mahout. Fortunately, there are not all that many elephants walking the streets. On my last visit to Chiang Mai there was but one elephant that seemed to be everywhere, but it was just the one elephant and given the large number of elephants in the region, working the tourist camps remains the preferable work option.

The biggest change over the past 20 years is the centralization of ownership of the elephants by the large elephant camp (pang chaang) owners such as Pho Liang or Mae Liang. If you go back a few decades, the elephants at camps like Mae Sa were mostly independently owned, mostly by Karen, a few of whom might own a handful of elephants. Today, the economics of the tourist business favor the elephant camp owner owning most of the animals. This is not all bad, as many of the elephant camp owners are indeed good people. But when tourism drops then it becomes difficult for the independent owner to find work placement for the animal and they may have little choice other than to hit the streets, especially the Surin people who are who are not as well networked up north where many of the tourist camps are located.

The poor status of the mahouts is another issue, and even the good owners tend to pay them little. This is partially economic and partially cultural as most mahouts are traditionally from minority groups, either Karen up north or Suai in Surin. I remember one elephant camp up in Mae Tang where I got into an argument with a manager over a sign asking tourists not to tip the mahouts. My wife is still upset at me for getting into that argument with a Thai (OK, she gets mad at me anytime I get into an argument with a Thai). But the bottom line is that an elephant camp owner has the potential to make a whole lot of money, the elephant owner can rent out his elephant to the camp owner and then make a decent return on the investment, and the mahout still makes less than minimum wage.

Johpa I can't say what the other elephant camps pay thier Mahouts but I can assure you that we pay a decent wage. We pay all medical for Mahouts and thier families. The elephants that we don't own we rent. None of the 60 elephants have (ever since our opening in June of 96) have gone to the streets. Over the years the tourist season has roller coastered due to world events. Any given day my wife and i sit in the audience during the elephant show segment (not a circus show!) and after go up and start tipping the mahouts to get the visitors to follow along. I can tell you that we the owners aren't getting rich off this business. Most of the funds generated at the camp go back into the camp in the form of salary and feeding the elephants. Example 1 elephant to feed a month including salary is around 20,000 baht. Xs that by 60 elephants. It's about keeping the domesticated elephant and the Mahout traditions alive. Hey I started out to retire from this business but I can tell that will never happen. Now it is about th elephants and thier mahouts traditional lifestyle that we are dedicated to. Our mahouts make well over the minimum wage. But I agree with you that the potential for low salary in other camps is real do to the fact that most mahouts in the north here are Karen burmese folks living in Thailand ilegally. Exploitation can happen. We are striving to find better ways in helping the working elephant. In the beginning we would pay the owners of the elephants that we rent at the camp every 2 weeks. Then we found out that they were only paying the mahout a small fraction of what we were paying them. We put a stop to that and we demanded that the owners split 50/50. Any owners that disagreed found work at another camp. We care for our staff of over 200 and thier families. My personal goal is to make the reputation of our elephant camp a safe and natural enviroment for the elephants and thier Mahouts. Thanks for your input on this matter, You have a fair amount of knowledge of the elephant scene here in thailand.......Milt

[Scott]

I don't know for sure if it's against forum rules, but I'd be interested in knowing the name and location of your elephant park. I love those beasts and am interested in patronizing places such as yours. If it can't be posted, the PM me.

Thanks.