Hybrid Car

[Upcountry]

Hybrid cars are going nowhere fast here in Thailand. You see them in Bangkok here and there, but Thai powers-that-be still have not done their part to make them affordable.

Let's say they do, so that a Toyota Prius can compete with other compact Toyota cars, and hybrid SUV's can compete with gas/diesel powered versions.

A. Would you sell what you have now and be the first to drive off the lot?

B. Would you buy one when it's time to get a new car?

C. Would you stay away?

Seriously (and, of course, not, for the punters ), what would go into your decision process for any of the options above, or anything else related to the notion of owning a hybrid car in Thailand.

Assuming that a lot of TV members see no point to driving a more energy efficient car, what would get you to buy a hybrid at some point anyway?

Edited November 15, 2007 by Upcountry

[tingtong]

for me the important thing is price and everyday cost.

if they will be able to compete with the others, then i dont mind to be 'greener'.

till that time, sorry, i dont care a hybrid.

[ignoramus]

The Prius isn't cheap here in Australia.

I've heard that the batteries have to be replaced after a few years at considerable cost.

[Macx]

I'll buy one if it's one of these:http://www.rqriley.com/xr3.htm

XR3 Hybrid: Personal Mobility Vehicle (PMV)

Or better yet, if someone does another version of it using the Phantom (minus the front). Yep, it would be cheap and fun to drive in LOS

[chicowoodduck]

Hybrid cars are going nowhere fast here in Thailand. You see them in Bangkok here and there, but Thai powers-that-be still have not done their part to make them affordable.

Let's say they do, so that a Toyota Prius can compete with other compact Toyota cars, and hybrid SUV's can compete with gas/diesel powered versions.

A. Would you sell what you have now and be the first to drive off the lot?

B. Would you buy one when it's time to get a new car?

C. Would you stay away?

Seriously (and, of course, not, for the punters ), what would go into your decision process for any of the options above, or anything else related to the notion of owning a hybrid car in Thailand.

Assuming that a lot of TV members see no point to driving a more energy efficient car, what would get you to buy a hybrid at some point anyway?

I'm going with selection C. Shifting gears to leg power just seems to be the healthy, "green" thing to do, as well as healthy for the wallet!

[JetsetBkk]

The Prius isn't cheap here in Australia.

I've heard that the batteries have to be replaced after a few years at considerable cost.

Normal batteries don't last long in Thailand. Are the hybrid's ones any different?

I go for reliability, functionality, cost, running cost and looks - in that order - so I doubt very much I'll get one.

[Pepe']

if they actually got the 60 +mpgs that are advertised.

Most people I've talked to about Toyota/Prius get 35 to 40, some 50.

I'm waiting for more developments...

[stateman]

I've heard that the batteries have to be replaced after a few years at considerable cost.

Normal batteries don't last long in Thailand. Are the hybrid's ones any different?

I read awhile back that rumour about replacing batteries in a few years was errorneous. Even after 100k+ miles the batteries were still going. I met an owner of 2 Prius cars in Calif., one the original version, one a new version, who is quite happy with the cars.

In the US, batteries are now sold with 100 months warranty for regular lead-acid kind. I don't recall what kind of batteries the Prius use. But I imagine the original batteries would be of high quality. But after the original batteries are gone, anyone buying short-life aftermarket replacement batteries in Thailand - tough luck! It ain't just buying one battery, but a whole array of short-life batteries every few years. Buying imported batteries from Toyota likely will be quite expensive. Not a good deal in Thailand IMO.

[englishoak]

I'll wait for a them to make it competative in price, and yes I do care about the looks too. Until then It's motorbikes and taxis as usual.

[Misty]

My folks own a Prius, have had it for a couple of years now.

Based on observation, Bangkok would be a pleasanter place if all vehicles used this technology--not only would there be fewer emissions, but traffic noise would be lower too. The thing is virtually silent in electric mode--like a golf cart. My parents live in a rural area, and this can be a problem as wildlife doesn't always run when the car is coming. The car does beep when in reverse, though.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Misty

[Chloe82]

I'm generaly against hybrid vehicles, for one, hybrids don't really do much to reduce petroleum consumption and pollution, it's better to build all-electric vehicles that have zero emissions or look toward using longer-term technology such as hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles.

Also worth realising is that it takes more energy to manufacture a hybrid than a regular car. The the energy consumed by a Hummer for example is less than a Prius over their entire lives thisdue to higher design and manufacturing energy costs for the Prius and a shorter projected life span.

Of course, i expect to be attacked by the environmentalists for pointing this inconvienient truth out to them.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Chloe82

[Misty]

I'm generaly against hybrid vehicles, for one, hybrids don't really do much to reduce petroleum consumption and pollution, it's better to build all-electric vehicles that have zero emissions or look toward using longer-term technology such as hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles.

Also worth realising is that it takes more energy to manufacture a hybrid than a regular car. The the energy consumed by a Hummer for example is less than a Prius over their entire lives thisdue to higher design and manufacturing energy costs for the Prius and a shorter projected life span.

Of course, i expect to be attacked by the environmentalists for pointing this inconvienient truth out to them.

Any research you can point to on these points? Would be interested in learning more about what you say.

(While I'm all for the environment, I probably don't qualify to be called an environmentalist.)

[Upcountry]

Hey, folks, please allow Chloe to express her opinion. She's entitled to it.

Let's keep this thread about what people's feelings are about buying a hybrid or not, and avoid spiraling into the arguments that have turned the Global warming thread into a medieval cock fight.

In my opinion, hybrids are a stepping stone technology, improving mileage enough that if more people drove them, oil consumption would drop a lot more than just using regular cars. The theory behind improving mileage even by small increment makes a big difference over time for each vehicle, and makes a significant difference when a lot of cars get even slightly better mileage.

My readings about hybrids tells me that even with air conditioning in a hot climate like Thailand's, the mileage will be much better than that of an ordinary car.

Personally, I would want to get a plug-in hybrid, especially if the local power company can find a better way to produce electricity.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Upcountry

[kmart]

Hybrid Car, What will it take to make you want to buy one?

Hmm,... 0 - 60mph in under 6 seconds. 18" Mag wheels. Top speed in excess of 200mph. All leather and walnut interior. Fanny-magnet "pulling-power"; etc.

Maybe I'll give the "Prius" a miss...

[HS Mauberley]

I'm generaly against hybrid vehicles, for one, hybrids don't really do much to reduce petroleum consumption and pollution, it's better to build all-electric vehicles that have zero emissions or look toward using longer-term technology such as hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles.

It's better not to continue pretending that current transport arrangements can be continued. Business as usual is not an option and if you want to wait for electric vehicles and the hydrogen economy, feel free but you've got a better chance of witnessing the second coming of Christ - it's not going to happen.

Also worth realising is that it takes more energy to manufacture a hybrid than a regular car. The the energy consumed by a Hummer for example is less than a Prius over their entire lives thisdue to higher design and manufacturing energy costs for the Prius and a shorter projected life span.

Do you have any justification for saying that or is it another of your ludicrous fantasies? I'm no fan of hybrids (for the reasons you mention and because they help to maintain the pretence that fat, over-indulged westerners can be fat and over-indulged and save the world) but making up statistics to support your case is not the way forward. But please prove me wrong.

In answer (sort of) to the original question, if you must have a car, you're best off buying a small fuel-efficient second-hand car but this is, by a very long way, only the second best option.

[Chloe82]

I feel that some facts realy need to be made clear here before jumping on this government taxation gravy train.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius.

The Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The plant that mines and smelts this has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the 'dead zone' around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius' battery, this 'plague-factory' has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming an environmentalist's nightmare.

Acording to Canadian green peace the acid rain in the region is creating an environmental disaster with plant life dying and uncontrolable toxification of the soil.

So the nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel is sent over to China for prcessing and then it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer.

To reach this conclusion you must consider the total combined energy taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Hummer has a life expectancy which is three times longer than a Prius and will less combined energy in that time. It would take five years to offset the price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.

If people want to do good by the environment then it is well worth getting all the facts to make educated desicions, don't just take my word for this, do some research and you might find that these cars in reality are doing more damage to the environment than you realise.

You can learn more about this subject by reading, amongst others a report by CNW Marketing called 'Dust to Dust'.

[ignis]

Hybrid Car, What will it take to make you want to buy one?

Hmm,... 0 - 60mph in under 6 seconds. 18" Mag wheels. Top speed in excess of 200mph. All leather and walnut interior. Fanny-magnet "pulling-power"; etc.

Maybe I'll give the "Prius" a miss...

Yes that is made, the only downside is it cost almost £300,000 yes 300.000 UK pounds, so out of reach of most of us.

[Donnyboy]

Hybrid Car, What will it take to make you want to buy one?

Hmm,... 0 - 60mph in under 6 seconds. 18" Mag wheels. Top speed in excess of 200mph. All leather and walnut interior. Fanny-magnet "pulling-power"; etc.

Maybe I'll give the "Prius" a miss...

Yes that is made, the only downside is it cost almost £300,000 yes 300.000 UK pounds, so out of reach of most of us.

??

Toyota Prius Guide

Toyota Prius

The Toyota Prius model range lies within the price bracket of £17,765 - £20,665. The Prius has been awarded a five star NCAP crash test rating by the European New Car Assessment Programme out of a possible five stars. Based on this NCAP rating the Prius fairs very well in an accident having been given the highest possible result. Toyota Prius insurance groups start at group 7 and rise to group 8. All models are below average to insure.

[Donnyboy]

I feel that some facts realy need to be made clear here before jumping on this government taxation gravy train.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius.

The Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The plant that mines and smelts this has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the 'dead zone' around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius' battery, this 'plague-factory' has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming an environmentalist's nightmare.

Acording to Canadian green peace the acid rain in the region is creating an environmental disaster with plant life dying and uncontrolable toxification of the soil.

So the nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel is sent over to China for prcessing and then it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer.

To reach this conclusion you must consider the total combined energy taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Hummer has a life expectancy which is three times longer than a Prius and will less combined energy in that time. It would take five years to offset the price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.

If people want to do good by the environment then it is well worth getting all the facts to make educated desicions, don't just take my word for this, do some research and you might find that these cars in reality are doing more damage to the environment than you realise.

You can learn more about this subject by reading, amongst others a report by CNW Marketing called 'Dust to Dust'.

some good points about the nickel-metal-hydride batteries that are found in just about all laptops, digital cameras et al

heres an interesting article regarding hybrid vs small car, its a few years old but still relevant (NZ article NZ$1 = 25 baht)

Economy drive

1-Dec-2004

The most economical car in the recent EnergyWise Rally was a Toyota Prius.

After test-driving the Prius for our recent report on hybrid cars, we're not surprised.

Former Formula 1 driver Chris Amon and co-driver Sarah Burke certainly got the best out of the Prius, with a remarkable 4.02 litres per 100km (64 miles per gallon) petrol consumption over the four-day rally, which is quite an achievement for a medium-sized car.

Another Prius was second-equal with a Daihatsu Charade, while Honda Civic Hybrids were fifth and sixth equal.

Small cars filled up the rest of the top 10, and none used more than 5.5 l/100km (50 mpg). Diesel cars also featured in the top 10: a Peugeot 307 diesel was eighth, and a Skoda Fabia diesel was 10th. A diesel-powered Hyundai Getz also did very well, (4.18 l/100km) but was not eligible for overall honours as it is yet to be released for sale in New Zealand.

A Getz running on E10 Biofuel - a mix of 10 percent ethanol in petrol - delivered similar economy to a standard model, despite being driven by different celebrities on each day. No modifications are needed for this E10 fuel which can be produced from by-products from dairy factories.

Small car or hybrid?

Reader Phil Sai-Louie, who owns a Daihatsu Charade, raised an interesting question after our report on hybrid cars. Small cars cost a lot less than hybrids, yet can come close to matching their economy. You'd have to drive a long way in a hybrid before you made up the difference.

There are plenty of affordable choices in the small, economical car market. The Charade and Hyundai Getz sell for around $16,900, and the Honda Jazz (fourth overall) sells from $20,500.

Of course, economy run figures are hard to achieve in normal motoring. When competing, drivers don't use anything that might detract from economy, such as the air conditioning. Figures in the Australian Greenhouse Office (AGO) Green Vehicle Guide (www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au) are more realistic for normal motoring. Expect to use more fuel in city driving and less on the highway (the AGO test covers both).

How much fuel will $26,000 buy?

A Toyota Prius sells for $43,500. That's $26,600 more than a Daihatsu Charade. If you assume a petrol price of $1.20 a litre, the difference in purchase price will buy 22,166L of fuel - enough, according to the EnergyWise Rally results, to power the Charade for 505,000km. So if you drive 15,000km a year, the savings from buying a Charade instead of a Prius will be enough to keep you in fuel for 34 years!

Report by Hamish Wilson.

[HS Mauberley]

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer.

To reach this conclusion you must consider the total combined energy taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Hummer has a life expectancy which is three times longer than a Prius and will less combined energy in that time. It would take five years to offset the price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.

If people want to do good by the environment then it is well worth getting all the facts to make educated desicions, don't just take my word for this, do some research and you might find that these cars in reality are doing more damage to the environment than you realise.

You can learn more about this subject by reading, amongst others a report by CNW Marketing called 'Dust to Dust'.

The report which you reference claims that a Hummer does 200,000 miles in its life and a Prius half that. The Hummer does less than half the mileage of a Prius (let’s say 20 mpg compared to 50 mpg). That means over their respective lives the vehicles will consume about 10000 and 2000 gallons of petrol each. The report claims that the Prius has a lifespan of 12 years and the Hummer 15 years so to make things easier, let’s treat them as the same. It is commonly accepted that around 15% of the total energy used over the lifespan of a car is attributable to its construction so that means that the construction of the Hummer consumed the equivalent of about 1700 gallons of petrol. The only way that your claims (that a Prius uses 50% more energy over its life than a Hummer) can be made to stand up is if we assume that the Prius used approximately nine times as much energy as the Hummer to build. No one is going to believe that. The economics would be prohibitive, particularly given the fact that the two cars seem to cost roughly the same. (Of course, I’m no expert and it’s entirely possible that I’ve made a mistake in these calculations). This isn’t to say that there aren’t problems with hybrids but it’s just not true that it is better for the environment (in terms of energy) to drive a Hummer than to drive a Prius. (One of the reasons that the report is misleading is that giving a per mile figure penalises Prius users, who drive fewer miles over a given timespan than Hummer drivers).

Another example from Dust to Dust which shows how misleading it is: The energy cost per mile of the Volkswagen Golf is given as $2.70 while that of the Hummer H3 is $1,95. How a car, with no special hardware, greater than twice the fuel economy and less than half the weight of the H3 can consume nearly 40% more energy every mile is not explained.

Edited November 16, 2007 by HS Mauberley

[gregb]

Before even considering it, I'd need to have an honest answer to the question:

"What is the expected fuel economy WITH THE AIR CONDITIONING running 100% of the time."

I have never seen these numbers published anywhere. My suspicion is that once you throw in this caveat, you find that it won't be much better than a non hybrid car. I personally don't see how the energy savings from regenerative braking and slightly smaller internal resistance of the gasoline engine can add a significant amount of effeciency when you figure that you also have the extra weight of the batteries to haul around.

Anyway, I don't think I'll be buying a hybrid ever. A totally electric car I might consider one day only if it includes air conditioning for 3 hours and at least a 100km range. For now, I'll stick with NGV. I think it's just as clean if not cleaner when you factor in the additional embedded energy in manufacturing a hybrid (I'd be curious to see a real study here), and the total cost of ownership in Thailand simply can't be beat.

In short, for me, hybrids in Thailand are a non starter.

[Khun Jean]

I had a Opel corsa 1.5 diesel a long time ago.

It used about 4.5l of diesel per 100 km driving in city and 120-130 Km/h on the highway.

Now almost 15 years later they are not doing much better. Progress?

I would never buy a hybrid, too many compromises and initial costs to high.

I prefer to spend money when using and not so much upfront.

In Thailand it is public transport (Train, bus, taxi in that order of preference), and walking, bicycle, small bike for short distances.

For the prices of a decent car you can make a lot of trips with a taxi or a rented car with driver. So much more relaxing.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Khun Jean

[ignis]

Hybrid Car, What will it take to make you want to buy one?

Hmm,... 0 - 60mph in under 6 seconds. 18" Mag wheels. Top speed in excess of 200mph. All leather and walnut interior. Fanny-magnet "pulling-power"; etc.

Maybe I'll give the "Prius" a miss...

Yes that is made, the only downside is it cost almost £300,000 yes 300.000 UK pounds, so out of reach of most of us.

??

Toyota Prius Guide

Toyota Prius

The Toyota Prius model range lies within the price bracket of £17,765 - £20,665. The Prius has been awarded a five star NCAP crash test rating by the European New Car Assessment Programme out of a possible five stars. Based on this NCAP rating the Prius fairs very well in an accident having been given the highest possible result. Toyota Prius insurance groups start at group 7 and rise to group 8. All models are below average to insure.

Re your ?? was on 5th Gear a while back + on there web site, Roger Moor was test driving it

It's called "The Attack" and it's a hybrid supercar with over 300 hp developed from a AC electric motor powering the front wheels and a 1.9L VW TDi biodiesel powering the rears.

The batteries powering the electric motor act as capacitors able to discharge a lot of energy in short bursts, enough for 0-60 runs in the sub 4-second range.

Edited November 16, 2007 by ignis

[ignis]

There is another..... Lexus to launch 200mph LF-A hybrid supercar, the hybrid LF-A will reach 60mph in less than 4 seconds, have a top speed of more than 200mph !!

No idea if it is on the roads as that was about a year ago

Edited November 16, 2007 by ignis

[ignoramus]

I too have heard the report that Chloe82 mentions (Hummer v. Prius).

(Just as an aside, there have been complaints here in Oz (Sydney anyway) that the blind hate them.

As one might well imagine the blind rely on hearing to a much greater extent than the sighted.

As a professional driver my experience is that other drivers as well as pedestrians rely, almost subconsciously, on sounds as well as 'sights'. I do, as a pedestrian. The point is, I guess that a Prius (e.g.) driver would need to be much more alert in certain situations - for me, a tedious prospect).

[Heng]

Thinking about replacing my aging Granvia with the Alphard Hybrid... they are selling it right next to the Prius at various SEC dealerships. That's the problem, the Prius belongs in regular Toyota dealerships at everyday prices... not as an upmarket item.

[percy2]

Thinking about replacing my aging Granvia with the Alphard Hybrid... they are selling it right next to the Prius at various SEC dealerships. That's the problem, the Prius belongs in regular Toyota dealerships at everyday prices... not as an upmarket item.

Heng,

I'm currently looking for a similar type of vehicle.

So far leaning towards the VW TDI.

What are your thoughts?

Cheers

[Upcountry]

Chloe's point about batteries and the miles involved in manufacture correlates with the notion of "food miles" and some other similar notions about the idea of local vs remote production. With food, the idea is that a locally grown vegetable in an energy demanding greenhouse may actually have a higher "food miles" or "energy miles" quotient than the same product grown in a more efficient way and trucked in.

Batteries are indeed a toxic problem. [on the opposite end of the life cycle, I have a box of old batteries that I'm saving until Thailand figures out that an organized toxic waste program is better than putting them in the landfill.] One of my big frustrations with hybrids and alternative energy is that not enough money and man-hours have been put into developing better batteries. They are making progress, but the latest news I have seen shows that we're sill a bit away from the next generation. They may not be ready in the time frame that the Chevy Volt is dependent on, for instance.

But I also see HS Mauberley's counter point. Hybrids are a very creative and technologically interesting effort to increase the miles a consumer vehicle can get out of a gallon of fuel. I heard that the US military may be experimenting with hybrid tanks! So don't be surprised to see a hybrid Hummer soon.

check out: Chevy Tahoe Hybrid (not quiet a Hummer, I know)

http://www.chevrolet.com/hybrid/

Given the battery problem, even if selling prices are adjusted, still brings to the ideological "face" value of the purchase. We tend to buy cars and find dogs and/or cats that reflect our personalities, don't we.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Upcountry

[bkk_mike]

Personally, at current prices in Thailand, I wouldn't buy a hybrid (except possibly where you want a specific car, like an Estima or an Alphard, and they only come in petrol or petrol hybrid).

Given the actual fuel economy, you're better off with a diesel car of a similar size because they can genuinely get better mileage than a hybrid (until someone comes out with a diesel hybrid), and the fuel's cheaper too.

The only place where hybrids genuinely make sense is California (where diesel isn't generally available at regular filling stations for environmental reasons), and London, where despite using more fuel than diesel of the same size, and the additional issues with the batteries, hybrids are exempt from the congestion charge. (I can understand genuine electric vehicles, or even hybrids which have been converted to be pluggable, being exempt - but just regular hybrids aren't THAT green.)

[elkangorito]

I think that many of the posts are provocative & informative. They incite good "discussion".

The problems posed with operating "hybrid" cars (electric/fossil fuel) are the electric motor(s) & the stored energy (battery). The biggest problem out of these 2 things is the battery. "Fuel cells" have been under development for well over 50 years & are still making slow steps toward regular "usefulness". I believe that the hybrid vehicle is a "stepping stone" toward a more energy efficient mode of transportation (as another poster has already said).

Electric motors used in vehicles present no real problem, as they have had years of refinement. On the other hand, batteries are still being refined in their efficiency & output. Nickel based batteries (alkaline) are bloody good batteries but like all heavy metals, the pollution produced in their production & their disposal, is phenomenal. Nickel based batteries (not specifically Nickel Hydride but moreso the Nickel-Iron) advantages;

1] Can be left discharged without harm.

2] Can be overcharged without harm.

3] 20 years life expectancy compared to a 3 year life expectancy of a Lead-Acid battery.

4] Less weight.

5] Better able to withstand mechanical & electrical abuse.

6] Electrolyte less subject to freezing.

Advantages of Lead-Acid batteries;

1] Higher voltage per cell.

2] Up to 8 times cheaper than an Alkaline cell.

3] Smaller for same capacity.

4] High availability.

5] Higher discharge currents available.

6] Lower internal resistance.

It makes you wonder why we ever started using the Lead-Acid battery...especially in todays world. I think the Nickel Metal Hydride battery has a lot to be desired as it is still under development. It's good for small applications (electronics) but not so good for cars.

I have also heard that the Prius is capable of being retrofitted with standard Lead-Acid batteries. To me, this is a step in the wrong direction.

I'll pin my hopes on "fuel cells"...an exciting "old" technology. "Hybrid" sounds good for now but I think we'll see a "fuel cell" car within 2 or 3 years due to the ever increasing cost of oil.

BTW, I agree with Chloe.