Male/female - East Vs West

[TonyLeung]

[chiang mai]

the vast majority of men and women have clearly defined roles, duties and capabilities

Well, I think the "roles and duties" part is reasonably clear, but I'd like to hear more about how Chiangmai (& others) see the "capabilities" of men and women.

Chiangmai, can you explain further, pls. ?

I had not forgotten the question nor was I trying to duck it. I started to write an answer and then realised it's an almost impossible question to answer as a generalism. I started to think about the roles of men and women back in Victorian times and how many giant steps, positive in most case, women have made since then - I personally applaud that as progress because it was evolutionary rather than coerced or imposed and despite what others may think it is far fetched to think I view the term feminism as a dirty word!

But then I began to look at the downside of that progress and the possible negative impacts it has had - divorce rates are at an all time high, the family unit is no longer the sacrosanct unit it once was and troubled children abound. Not all 100% directly attributable effects but almost certainly attributable to some degree.

I'm afraid that generally speaking I am of the view that men and women are not the same, physically, emotionally and intellectually or in much of any other way really. I don't see that as a negative simply as a fact. If women are able to achieve a high office or success in business in the West, great and more power to them - let water find it's own level naturally I say but don't legislate to make it do so.

And before any of you start in on me I will point out once again that I have no axe to grind with women nor do I take this topic as personal to me. It's just that I think the approach to feminist equality has gone too far before it is ready to do so naturally and that western society is now seeing the fall out.

[TonyLeung]

good job ducking the question. its not one you can answer imho without proving to yourself that you are wrong.

[GuestHouse]

the key question I look to have answered is whether it or not it is appropriate to coerce/convince/persuade the people of the East to accept the Western model.

There is no evidence that such coercion/convincing/persuasion is taking place.

There is plenty of evidence (here in this thread) of western men expecting Asian women to conform to some “Asian ideal” which in truth is actually something that is dreamed up by western men who have little or no real understanding of what “Asian Values and Customs” are.

Then you must lead a somewhat sheltered life and/or have minimal contact with Western women who visit Asia for the first time and listen to their views on what's right and wrong here. The things that spawned my original post (amongst other things) was having just had two female house guests visit Thailand for the first time, one from Aus and one from the US and both very feminist in their outlook. Between the two of them I have endured two weeks of near non stop rantings about how women in Thailand would never possibly be treated and regarded the same way "back home" and how things here have to change.

I'm laughing like a drain at that.

You mean you had two feminist women staying with you and because you could not (for whatever reason) stand your corner in face to face discussion with them you come on here ranting about Western Feminist Women.

Why should we have to put up with arguments you failed to make when you had a chance?

Like I said a few post back:

Traditional Western Men moving to Thailand and wearing the trousers in their own house.

Thailand is full of them – talking like a man out of the house and behaving like a mouse when at home.

Squeak Squeak !

[GuestHouse]

I'd like someone to give me an example of how Western Feminists have influenced Thai women or brought about changes to Thai society (by whatever means) and if such an example is found, a summary of why/how that particular case is a bad thing?

[Boo]

But then I began to look at the downside of that progress and the possible negative impacts it has had - divorce rates are at an all time high, the family unit is no longer the sacrosanct unit it once was and troubled children abound. Not all 100% directly attributable effects but almost certainly attributable to some degree.

This is my all time favorites of the "feminsim has destroyed western family values" blurb....

case senario: Boy meets girl, boy marries girl, boy & girl have babies, girl starts drinking more & more, girl becomes abusive & starts hitting boy & babies, boy goes to police & files report, girl carries on abusing boy & kids for a few more years till boy has enough & gets restrainging order, divorces the girl & is awarded kids & house in court plus alimony. Boy & kids much happier in a calm safe enviroment & can get on with their lifes without fear.

Now change girl to boy & boy to girl, if a man does it does it make it the fault of feminism too or is it only women who can't escape abusive or negative marriages for fear of upsetting the status quo or being labelled as raving feminists?? Hmmm I wonder why there were less divorces in the victorian age, could it be cause the women had no where to go & no rights especially if they had kids too?? No couldn't be could it!!!

Ok this is an extreme senario but an all to common one sadly in all countries. Sometimes people also choose to divorce cause they just don't get on any more or what they thought was love isn't really so they want to look for it elsewhere or a myriad of reasons really. All it means these days is they have the choice to be happier outside of a loveless/abusive/wrong marriage rather than stick with someone they may be afraid of or just can't stand anymore. I know what I advocate but then I am a feminist (in the truest definition) but also think that everyone including MEN have those rights too

[chiang mai]

the key question I look to have answered is whether it or not it is appropriate to coerce/convince/persuade the people of the East to accept the Western model.

There is no evidence that such coercion/convincing/persuasion is taking place.

There is plenty of evidence (here in this thread) of western men expecting Asian women to conform to some “Asian ideal” which in truth is actually something that is dreamed up by western men who have little or no real understanding of what “Asian Values and Customs” are.

Then you must lead a somewhat sheltered life and/or have minimal contact with Western women who visit Asia for the first time and listen to their views on what's right and wrong here. The things that spawned my original post (amongst other things) was having just had two female house guests visit Thailand for the first time, one from Aus and one from the US and both very feminist in their outlook. Between the two of them I have endured two weeks of near non stop rantings about how women in Thailand would never possibly be treated and regarded the same way "back home" and how things here have to change.

I'm laughing like a drain at that.

You mean you had two feminist women staying with you and because you could not (for whatever reason) stand your corner in face to face discussion with them you come on here ranting about Western Feminist Women.

Why should we have to put up with arguments you failed to make when you had a chance?

Like I said a few post back:

Traditional Western Men moving to Thailand and wearing the trousers in their own house.

Thailand is full of them – talking like a man out of the house and behaving like a mouse when at home.

Squeak Squeak !

Sorry that you were unable to join the debate Guesthouse, let's leave it their shall we,

[chiang mai]

I’ve followed a number of threads of late discussing male/female relations in Thailand and note with much interest the extent to which western female commentators seem to promote shades of the Western liberalised views of the feminist movement. Men and women are equal in every respect, the male is bad because he not (allegedly) as monogamous as the female and, most importantly, the female in the East should be regarded the same way as the female in the West, are all sound bites and more I detect.

My personal view is that this is all nonsense and that the vast majority of men and women have clearly defined roles, duties and capabilities and that Eastern culture is hugely different from Western culture and long may that survive – attempting to upset the order of those things is unhelpful and potentially dangerous, at a minimum it is annoying. My sense is that far too many Western female commentators on the topic of male/female equality are pursuing a “one size fits all” model around the globe and are actually quite insecure with the different model they see here in Thailand and other parts of Asia and The Far East.

Ladies, Gentlemen, should Asian females be treated and regarded here the same way as they are in the West or does that model not work here – I say it does not but you may have a different view.

I won't bother to comment or get involved in what will be a useless 'discussion'. The subject is way too sensitive for most people to handle with even a shred of objectivity.

I will however say that you have some very valid points imho.

I fear from the evidence that you are correct.

I've looked at all the contributions thus far and conclude you are correct. It rather looks like the TV forum is best equipped to handle discussions about rogue taxi drivers and not too much more I'm afraid. I believe I shall desist.

[chiang mai]

good job ducking the question. its not one you can answer imho without proving to yourself that you are wrong.

"I started to write an answer and then realised it's an almost impossible question to answer as a generalism".

I'm happy to say I am wrong when ever that is the case but on this occasion I was simply asking a question!

[chiang mai]

But then I began to look at the downside of that progress and the possible negative impacts it has had - divorce rates are at an all time high, the family unit is no longer the sacrosanct unit it once was and troubled children abound. Not all 100% directly attributable effects but almost certainly attributable to some degree.

This is my all time favorites of the "feminsim has destroyed western family values" blurb....

case senario: Boy meets girl, boy marries girl, boy & girl have babies, girl starts drinking more & more, girl becomes abusive & starts hitting boy & babies, boy goes to police & files report, girl carries on abusing boy & kids for a few more years till boy has enough & gets restrainging order, divorces the girl & is awarded kids & house in court plus alimony. Boy & kids much happier in a calm safe enviroment & can get on with their lifes without fear.

Now change girl to boy & boy to girl, if a man does it does it make it the fault of feminism too or is it only women who can't escape abusive or negative marriages for fear of upsetting the status quo or being labelled as raving feminists?? Hmmm I wonder why there were less divorces in the victorian age, could it be cause the women had no where to go & no rights especially if they had kids too?? No couldn't be could it!!!

Ok this is an extreme senario but an all to common one sadly in all countries. Sometimes people also choose to divorce cause they just don't get on any more or what they thought was love isn't really so they want to look for it elsewhere or a myriad of reasons really. All it means these days is they have the choice to be happier outside of a loveless/abusive/wrong marriage rather than stick with someone they may be afraid of or just can't stand anymore. I know what I advocate but then I am a feminist (in the truest definition) but also think that everyone including MEN have those rights too

Boo I can admire and respect your right to be a feminist provided you do not allow it to cloud your judgment and still leaves you objective. As for the family values scenario, I suspect our age difference gives us different perspectives on this.

[DamianMavis]

Just to clarify, my idea of sexist is that men should be masculine and women should be feminine, but both should have equal rights and opportunities. I don't want a woman to stay home barefoot and pregnant, I want her out there working her career to help contribute to the family, even if the family is just the 2 people. But where I'm really sexist, is the man should be "the boss". Equal rights and opportunities are ideal and sound great, but in every relationship someone has more power than the other... that SHOULD be the man but often isn't in western culture, hence the unhappy relationships. In my opinion. Women that meet my girlfriend ask her "so... who's in charge in your relationship with Damian?" Beaming with pleasure she will immediately say " oh HE"S the boss!" Nobody questions her about this since she looks so danged happy saying it.

Damian

[sylviex]

Just to clarify, my idea of sexist is that men should be masculine and women should be feminine, but both should have equal rights and opportunities. I don't want a woman to stay home barefoot and pregnant, I want her out there working her career to help contribute to the family, even if the family is just the 2 people. But where I'm really sexist, is the man should be "the boss". Equal rights and opportunities are ideal and sound great, but in every relationship someone has more power than the other... that SHOULD be the man but often isn't in western culture, hence the unhappy relationships. In my opinion. Women that meet my girlfriend ask her "so... who's in charge in your relationship with Damian?" Beaming with pleasure she will immediately say " oh HE"S the boss!" Nobody questions her about this since she looks so danged happy saying it.

Damian

Damian, do you think men & women are happier in their relationships in Thailand/India/China etc then ?

BTW, I'd find it a bit odd if friends asked me who was boss in my relationships. Just has never happened.

[chiang mai]

the vast majority of men and women have clearly defined roles, duties and capabilities

Well, I think the "roles and duties" part is reasonably clear, but I'd like to hear more about how Chiangmai (& others) see the "capabilities" of men and women.

Chiangmai, can you explain further, pls. ?

Apologies Sylviex, I thought I had answered your question but in between trying to do so and being bated by others I seem not to have done so.

As far as capabilities of men and women are concerned I once again believe it is a case of water finding it's own level. There are some women who are far more capable than men at specific tasks and in certain roles - if a woman wants to be head of their country's government, become CEO of a multi-national or fight in the front line of the armed services power to them if they are sufficiently capable and able. I think it's almost impossible to have two sets of parameters, one for men and one for women since all people are different and what works for one does not work for another. There are women who are not equipped or capable of being a parent but there are men who are not capable of holding down any type of job. Best I believe to think of men and women as one big resource pool where the naturally capable and talented ones will gravitate to the top. But whilst there should be no stigma attached to the ones that sink there should also NOT be a standard suggesting that a female who has sunk to the bottom automatically has the same set of rights as the ones at the top. For me it's all about individual capabilities, regardless of gender.

[Boo]

your talking about capabilites but I am talking about basic rights. thats all that feminism is in it's purest form. To use your analogy, a women has the basic right to apply for any role, whether she is capable of it is a different issue & should be addressed at interviews etc but when she is denied the right to even try then that is where the law & the role of feminsm comes into it's own. We shoudl all be able to at least have the right to chose. Whether or not we can do something is a different discussion. I have never seen anyone claim that men & women are the same but a lot of us do post that we claim the right to have the same opportunities & rights as men without abuse or fear of violence or persecution. A horse of a different coulor entirely.

As to whether thai women will be infulenced by the continued struggle for these basic rights by women in the west, well I don't know, I think they want the same but probably are no closer to getting it than we are (cause contrary to what a lot of men on this forum beleive we still have to remind certain industries of these basic rights) & as they have fewer groups to help them acheive it & as the education levels stil need to be improved IMO they are quite a way off.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Boo
added last paragraph

[chiang mai]

your talking about capabilites but I am talking about basic rights. thats all that feminism is in it's purest form. To use your analogy, a women has the basic right to apply for any role, whether she is capable of it is a different issue & should be addressed at interviews etc but when she is denied the right to even try then that is where the law & the role of feminsm comes into it's own. We shoudl all be able to at least have the right to chose. Whether or not we can do something is a different discussion. I have never seen anyone claim that men & women are the same but a lot of us do post that we claim the right to have the same opportunities & rights as men without abuse or fear of violence or persecution. A horse of a different coulor entirely.

Boo I wrote about capabilities because that was the subject the OP asked me for my views on. Some of what you wrote above about basic rights makes a lot of sense and I can agree but then there is another part of me that says people need to be realistic both with themselves and with others. It makes a mockery of the judicial system when someone who is clearly not sufficiently talented or able is allowed under law to apply for something and an employer is bound under law to consider the application. It's nice and good to have a choice so long as that freedom is used in a realistic and sensible way.

But now, back to the topic at hand.

[sylviex]

Chiangmai, your later post seems at variance with what you were suggesting earlier:

My personal view is that this is all nonsense and that the vast majority of men and women have clearly defined roles, duties and capabilities and that Eastern culture is hugely different from Western culture

Would you mind giving examples of what you have in mind when you say the "clearly defined capabilites" of "the vast majority of men and women" ?

Also, I am not sure why you think "rights" should be attached to "capabilities". Does a blind person have fewer rights than a sighted person ?

[chiang mai]

Chiangmai, your later post seems at variance with what you were suggesting earlier:

My personal view is that this is all nonsense and that the vast majority of men and women have clearly defined roles, duties and capabilities and that Eastern culture is hugely different from Western culture

Would you mind giving examples of what you have in mind when you say the "clearly defined capabilites" of "the vast majority of men and women" ?

Also, I am not sure why you think "rights" should be attached to "capabilities". Does a blind person have fewer rights than a sighted person ?

I do not intend the two sets of statement to contradict. In my first statement I refer to the "vast majority of men and women" meaning most but not all. Most men I believe are able and content to act as the breadwinner, work and to support the family in the traditional way. A vast majority of women are I believe willing and able to act in the classic role of mother and housekeeper et al although in times of economic pressure and uncertainty that role increasingly involves paid work or a career as well. That leaves the minority who reject the classic model, for whatever reason, to pursue roles and activities not traditional seen in the classic model. I continue to support the concept of a mixed pool where people of both genders either float or sink.

Rights and capabilities: I will not be sidetracked by your example of disabled people and rights because that is I think outside of the discussion at hand.

[chiang mai]

OP why not ask about this on a thai language website where there are a lot more thai women posting instead of a place dominated by so many western men. You may get a true response about how thai women feel themselves on the subject or about western men thinking they have a say or role in their future liberation??

Boo, just had to respond to this before I head out to dinner and allow the replies to accumulate.

The Thai website to women part is of course a red herring so we'll let that one pass. But your verbiage in the last para concerns me. You use the word liberation as though women are held captive to men as though they are a country seized in the course of a war and that's very emotive. Is there not a different way to look at that situation by saying, women have reached a natural level and that just happens to have resulted in todays position. Do you suspect there has been a conspiracy since the beginning of time whereby men in every country have decided women will not be their equal. No of course you don't. The answer could be in part that men and women are not the same and as I have said previously, water finds its own level.

[lannarebirth]

Chiangmai, your later post seems at variance with what you were suggesting earlier:

My personal view is that this is all nonsense and that the vast majority of men and women have clearly defined roles, duties and capabilities and that Eastern culture is hugely different from Western culture

Would you mind giving examples of what you have in mind when you say the "clearly defined capabilites" of "the vast majority of men and women" ?

Also, I am not sure why you think "rights" should be attached to "capabilities". Does a blind person have fewer rights than a sighted person ?

I do not intend the two sets of statement to contradict. In my first statement I refer to the "vast majority of men and women" meaning most but not all. Most men I believe are able and content to act as the breadwinner, work and to support the family in the traditional way. A vast majority of women are I believe willing and able to act in the classic role of mother and housekeeper et al although in times of economic pressure and uncertainty that role increasingly involves paid work or a career as well. That leaves the minority who reject the classic model, for whatever reason, to pursue roles and activities not traditional seen in the classic model. I continue to support the concept of a mixed pool where people of both genders either float or sink.

Rights and capabilities: I will not be sidetracked by your example of disabled people and rights because that is I think outside of the discussion at hand.

I think your thesis fails to consider the difference in earnings between the two cultures. You say that women tend to more traditional here, but what I see is as many or more than their western counterparts are working by necessity to feed their families. Extended family may be taking care of children and home. have no statistics , but it would not surprise me to learn that just as many women were working as men here. Though because they are women , in usually lesser capacities.

[AlexLah]

Can we just try to be equal?

At least in a relation both parties should be involved in decision making?

[DamianMavis]

Just to clarify, my idea of sexist is that men should be masculine and women should be feminine, but both should have equal rights and opportunities. I don't want a woman to stay home barefoot and pregnant, I want her out there working her career to help contribute to the family, even if the family is just the 2 people. But where I'm really sexist, is the man should be "the boss". Equal rights and opportunities are ideal and sound great, but in every relationship someone has more power than the other... that SHOULD be the man but often isn't in western culture, hence the unhappy relationships. In my opinion. Women that meet my girlfriend ask her "so... who's in charge in your relationship with Damian?" Beaming with pleasure she will immediately say " oh HE"S the boss!" Nobody questions her about this since she looks so danged happy saying it.

Damian

Damian, do you think men & women are happier in their relationships in Thailand/India/China etc then ?

BTW, I'd find it a bit odd if friends asked me who was boss in my relationships. Just has never happened.

Before I get into this, Id like to say that yes, a blind person DOES have fewer rights than a sighted person. For instance, they don't have the right to drive or the right to hold a job that absolutely requires sight. The same can be said of women, it is not common sense at all to put someone in a position that requires physical strength to save lives, if a woman (or man) has the physical strength great, if not they should not be allowed to attain a position due to politically correct laws. Equal rights and opportunities is a must, but in retarded countries like my home country Canada where they take it too far and make it a law that each company or government section MUST hire a certain number of women or minorities you get unqualified people getting jobs they should not. For a few years it was impossible for a white straight male to get a job with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police because there was a freeze on them until enough women and minorities had gotten jobs. Canada can be so ultimately stupid sometimes it makes Thailand look like a land of common sense. Up with equal rights, down with retarded political correctness.

Ok your questions Sylviex, I have no idea if they are happier, I dont aspire to be like them anyway. I was not as surprised to hear that question from her friends as I was to hear about all the gory detail questions that EVERYONE asks my Japanese girlfriend. Everyone that finds out she has a Gaijing boyfriend immediately asks how big my "chimpo" is, this includes her boss, women and men sometimes that she barely knows. Guess maybe Japanese are a little different from us socially heh. They go on to ask alot of other equally personal questions. Ive got quite a rep out there in Japanese circles apparently. I would be embarrased but I never see most of these people.

Damian

[DamianMavis]

Can we just try to be equal?

At least in a relation both parties should be involved in decision making?

I dont think there is such thing as true equality between 2 people in a romantic relationship.

Damian

[chiang mai]

Chiangmai, your later post seems at variance with what you were suggesting earlier:

My personal view is that this is all nonsense and that the vast majority of men and women have clearly defined roles, duties and capabilities and that Eastern culture is hugely different from Western culture

Would you mind giving examples of what you have in mind when you say the "clearly defined capabilites" of "the vast majority of men and women" ?

Also, I am not sure why you think "rights" should be attached to "capabilities". Does a blind person have fewer rights than a sighted person ?

I do not intend the two sets of statement to contradict. In my first statement I refer to the "vast majority of men and women" meaning most but not all. Most men I believe are able and content to act as the breadwinner, work and to support the family in the traditional way. A vast majority of women are I believe willing and able to act in the classic role of mother and housekeeper et al although in times of economic pressure and uncertainty that role increasingly involves paid work or a career as well. That leaves the minority who reject the classic model, for whatever reason, to pursue roles and activities not traditional seen in the classic model. I continue to support the concept of a mixed pool where people of both genders either float or sink.

Rights and capabilities: I will not be sidetracked by your example of disabled people and rights because that is I think outside of the discussion at hand.

I think your thesis fails to consider the difference in earnings between the two cultures. You say that women tend to more traditional here, but what I see is as many or more than their western counterparts are working by necessity to feed their families. Extended family may be taking care of children and home. have no statistics , but it would not surprise me to learn that just as many women were working as men here. Though because they are women , in usually lesser capacities.

Apologies that I didn't make it clear in the post but I was referring to Westerners. We are therefore both saying the same thing and agree.

[AlexLah]

Can we just try to be equal?

At least in a relation both parties should be involved in decision making?

I dont think there is such thing as true equality between 2 people in a romantic relationship.

Damian

It is Ok Damien, Reading all your replies just shows what you really are.

No problem, everyone has the right to his and her opinion.

I just know that you are not a person That I like to talk with in person.

Take care all, great thread!

Alex

[fbran]

chiang mai –

Though I probably would have worded it a bit differently, your original post is very good. Nobody in Thailand – or most of the world for that matter – believes that men & women are the same. Here in the US, the question as to whether men & women are the same is confused, to say the least.

I don’t care if an individual here or in Thailand believes that men and women are the same. What concerns me is when the West believes that its values are superior and it needs to impose those values on other countries via war, propaganda, or economic sanctions.

Despite the views of some, the West is no Utopia – even with respect to gender relations.

Frank

[sylviex]

Most men I believe are able and content to act as the breadwinner, work and to support the family in the traditional way. A vast majority of women are I believe willing and able to act in the classic role of mother and housekeeper

I don't agree. I believe the majority of men & women in more developed countries are enjoying the flexibility now available to them.

Damian - I asked if people in those cultures were happier because of the - supposedly - clearer definition of m/f roles in relationships, with the man - ostensibly - "in charge".

All couples have different dynamics. "Power" in a relationship can be very subtle, shifting and complex. When one partner perceives that they are holding too much power, they will often instinctively decide to "redistribute" it, as great inequities will create problems. I think you may be talking more about leadership, as in pack leadership amongst dogs.

We all seem to be working with different interpretations of "rights". A blind person is "equal but different" to a seeing person in the same way men and women are "equal but different".

Edited November 18, 2007 by sylviex

[t.s]

When these old white guys start having kids with young Thai girls then that is all wrong.

why?

Amongst other reasons that i wont mention here, older fathers are far more likely to have children with schizophrenia, Men aged 45 to 49 are twice as likely to have children with schizophrenia as men under the age of 25 who became fathers, while the risk triples for men over the age of 50.

citation please.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/older.htm

http://www.fathersnetwork.org/1008.html?pa...d3296fc&s=0

http://mentalhealth.about.com/od/schizophr...hizophrenia.htm

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/200...fsr-1104101.php

http://www.altpenis.com/penis_news/2001031...trunc_sys.shtml

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/...10413083401.htm

Many more if you need them.

thank you

very interesting

[DamianMavis]

Can we just try to be equal?

At least in a relation both parties should be involved in decision making?

I dont think there is such thing as true equality between 2 people in a romantic relationship.

Damian

It is Ok Damien, Reading all your replies just shows what you really are.

No problem, everyone has the right to his and her opinion.

I just know that you are not a person That I like to talk with in person.

Take care all, great thread!

Alex

Wow man, and what exactly am I? Your response to my opinion "I dont think there is such thing as true equality between 2 people in a romantic relationship" seems a little overly harsh haha!

Damian

[AlexLah]

Can we just try to be equal?

At least in a relation both parties should be involved in decision making?

I dont think there is such thing as true equality between 2 people in a romantic relationship.

Damian

It is Ok Damien, Reading all your replies just shows what you really are.

No problem, everyone has the right to his and her opinion.

I just know that you are not a person That I like to talk with in person.

Take care all, great thread!

Alex

Wow man, and what exactly am I? Your response to my opinion "I dont think there is such thing as true equality between 2 people in a romantic relationship" seems a little overly harsh haha!

Damian

Damian it is OK, what you feel and think, no worry about it, it is all clear how you think and feel about the relation between girls and men.

[DamianMavis]

I think my opinions are pretty nice compared to some of the guys on Thaivisa omg! My beliefs are pretty mild, you must have a hard time finding people to talk to in person, heh

Damian