Male/female - East Vs West

[jetjock]

i didnt even know there was a model for western women.

some home makers, some not. some marry for munney some dont. not all same same.

west women genereally dont like to dig ditches though..............lol.

Sorry to hear that. Guess I am going to have take the shovel I was going to buy for my wife off my Christmas shopping list.

[meom]

Let me ask you guys a question, would you rather your daughter be western minded, want to take care of herself, have her own money etc, or would you rather that she makes it her goal to cook and clean and looks to her husband to provide her money? come on man, you just like the latter because its better for you.

If that were the case how come most western men hook up with entertainment providers who except for the cooking and cleaning bit are very well capable to take care themselves and earn their own money?

they take that job because they want to find a provider. that isnt obvious to you?

I can understand that those women might look for a provider and I can also understand that some men prefer a woman that cooks, cleans and looks to their husband to provide them money.

What i don't understand is why such men hook-up with a hooker most of whom are pretty head strung and now how to get their own way and are definately not the docile type preferred by the kind of men you mentioned.

[kat]

Let me ask you guys a question, would you rather your daughter be western minded, want to take care of herself, have her own money etc, or would you rather that she makes it her goal to cook and clean and looks to her husband to provide her money? come on man, you just like the latter because its better for you.

If that were the case how come most western men hook up with entertainment providers who except for the cooking and cleaning bit are very well capable to take care themselves and earn their own money?

they take that job because they want to find a provider. that isnt obvious to you?

I can understand that those women might look for a provider and I can also understand that some men prefer a woman that cooks, cleans and looks to their husband to provide them money.

What i don't understand is why such men hook-up with a hooker most of whom are pretty head strung and now how to get their own way and are definately not the docile type preferred by the kind of men you mentioned.

Hmmmm ... I don't recall mentioning any one kind of man, but I do recall mentioning CHOICE.

[meom]

Let me ask you guys a question, would you rather your daughter be western minded, want to take care of herself, have her own money etc, or would you rather that she makes it her goal to cook and clean and looks to her husband to provide her money? come on man, you just like the latter because its better for you.

If that were the case how come most western men hook up with entertainment providers who except for the cooking and cleaning bit are very well capable to take care themselves and earn their own money?

they take that job because they want to find a provider. that isnt obvious to you?

I can understand that those women might look for a provider and I can also understand that some men prefer a woman that cooks, cleans and looks to their husband to provide them money.

What i don't understand is why such men hook-up with a hooker most of whom are pretty head strung and now how to get their own way and are definately not the docile type preferred by the kind of men you mentioned.

Hmmmm ... I don't recall mentioning any one kind of man, but I do recall mentioning CHOICE.

I thought when Tony mentioned " come on man you just like the latter that latter referred to the kind of woman that cooks, cleans etc.

Maybe my thinking not clear

[PeaceBlondie]

I really only know one Western feminist. She got pregnant at age 17, decided to keep the baby and the father, and then she went through university with top grades and became a professional teacher. Twenty three years later, her husband still stays home, does the laundry, housekeeping, and babysitting (he's Mexican-American, and macho!). I know she's a feminist because she's read books by Naomi Wolf and has an autographed Gloria Steinem book.

Most Westerners don't make five times as much as middle aged career Thai teachers. Except for that American teacher who makes nearly 150,000 baht per month, stays in the West, teaches geniuses, and sends emails to her father, who is a gay moderator at ThaiVisa.

[t.s]

Let me ask you guys a question, would you rather your daughter be western minded, want to take care of herself, have her own money etc, or would you rather that she makes it her goal to cook and clean and looks to her husband to provide her money? come on man, you just like the latter because its better for you.

well put.

[t.s]

When these old white guys start having kids with young Thai girls then that is all wrong.

why?

Amongst other reasons that i wont mention here, older fathers are far more likely to have children with schizophrenia, Men aged 45 to 49 are twice as likely to have children with schizophrenia as men under the age of 25 who became fathers, while the risk triples for men over the age of 50.

citation please.

[ShakaIsuzu]

Come on, don't let some troll hijack the topic.

Back on topic:

No, I don't think there's any difference, but then I never had a relationship with a western woman in my life.

[t.s]

Most Westerners don't make five times as much as middle aged career Thai teachers. Except for that American teacher who makes nearly 150,000 baht per month, stays in the West, teaches geniuses, and sends emails to her father, who is a gay moderator at ThaiVisa.

why would you write this?

[ZukiSuzuki]

When these old white guys start having kids with young Thai girls then that is all wrong.

why?

Amongst other reasons that i wont mention here, older fathers are far more likely to have children with schizophrenia, Men aged 45 to 49 are twice as likely to have children with schizophrenia as men under the age of 25 who became fathers, while the risk triples for men over the age of 50.

citation please.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/older.htm

http://www.fathersnetwork.org/1008.html?pa...d3296fc&s=0

http://mentalhealth.about.com/od/schizophr...hizophrenia.htm

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/200...fsr-1104101.php

http://www.altpenis.com/penis_news/2001031...trunc_sys.shtml

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/...10413083401.htm

Many more if you need them.

[chicowoodduck]

I don't see the attitude you claim from the women on the forum here but..... I am a traditional man, feminists would call me sexist. I truly believe that men and women have clearly defined roles and when you break away from those roles you have unhappy couples, maybe that is why we have such a high divorce rate in the west. There's nothing wrong with a strong woman, but she better hook up with an even stronger man or I think she will be unhappy. It's basic instinct, I've never seen a happy woman that was with a weak man. Constant fighting and disrespect is NOT normal and is a big sign that SOMEONES unhappy, which is what I see back in Canada ALL THE TIME with couples. Always when the man was too weak. I'm in trouble now!

Damian

Just find the nearest bunker and cancel you next vacation back to Canada. Oh, and the increase in the divorce rate.....what with women making more $$$ in the workplace, they aren't nearly as dependent on the "man of the house" to be able to survive and live on their own.

[kat]

There's nothing wrong with a strong woman, but she better hook up with an even stronger man or I think she will be unhappy. It's basic instinct, I've never seen a happy woman that was with a weak man. Constant fighting and disrespect is NOT normal and is a big sign that SOMEONES unhappy, which is what I see back in Canada ALL THE TIME with couples. Always when the man was too weak. I'm in trouble now!

Damian

Basic instincts do not need an assigned role or script to present themselves, in fact they are much more naturally expressed on their own. Does fire care whether or not it is stronger than oxygen to burn? I think you are right about strength, but what is most important is that he is as strong as her opposite, so that their chemical reaction makes them more of who they are together. Roles and scripts are more concerned with predictability and security than they are with nature. That's fine, too, but if he is able to completely be his self while she is completely herself in their most natural state, then he's strong enough to make her happy, because biology is already a given.

Of course, if he can open jars, fix the stereo, and do taxes, then that's a bonus - for me.

[stateman]

troll.

if i ever see a troll, this is it!

[Andrew Hicks]

girls who grew up on farms are not the same as girls who grew up in the city and have a post secondary education. most of the farang in Thailand end up with the farm girls (for better or worse i am not judging). the girls who grew up in the city, went to university and can provide for themselves are more likely to resemble Western women and to have higher standards in their choice of a partner than the girls who grew up on a farm.

the major difference, IMO is not cultural, but financial.

An interesting response.

All this analysis is interesting. It becomes unfortunate though when those propounding a particular model are telling individuals what is right and what they should be.

As a westerner, we are conditioned to respect the individual and to want choice and opportunity. Ironically it is social stability that often brings the greatest happiness while a mobile society produces both winners and losers and much angst.

Societies differ. Vive les differences! Let nobody claim a monopoly on truth.

Andrew Hicks

[sweetchariot]

There's nothing wrong with a strong woman, but she better hook up with an even stronger man or I think she will be unhappy. It's basic instinct, I've never seen a happy woman that was with a weak man. Constant fighting and disrespect is NOT normal and is a big sign that SOMEONES unhappy, which is what I see back in Canada ALL THE TIME with couples. Always when the man was too weak. I'm in trouble now!

Damian

Basic instincts do not need an assigned role or script to present themselves, in fact they are much more naturally expressed on their own. Does fire care whether or not it is stronger than oxygen to burn? I think you are right about strength, but what is most important is that he is as strong as her opposite, so that their chemical reaction makes them more of who they are together. Roles and scripts are more concerned with predictability and security than they are with nature. That's fine, too, but if he is able to completely be his self while she is completely herself in their most natural state, then he's strong enough to make her happy, because biology is already a given.

Of course, if he can open jars, fix the stereo, and do taxes, then that's a bonus - for me.

Finally Kat is making some sense! (Btw you have said you are leaving this thread on at least 3 occassions).

I have a Thai g/f, we have been living together for nearly 18 months now, and never been happier. She is a strong, indepent, intelligent girl. I like to think I am the same.

I am not middle aged, and she is not 20.

I have a friend who is about 15 years older than me, and the biggest chauvenist I have ever met. He has a wife who is 20, weak willed, and quite frankly dumb. He barks instructions and she obeys (I think the only English she knows is bacon, eggs, tea, and blow-job). He has been through a messy divorce in the UK, and says he has never been happier.

Whilst I don't understand my friend, it just proves the point that everyone is different, and likes different things. If you want a sex slave who will pander to your every whim, then you can buy that here, at very reasonable rates. If you are a bit younger and want a life partner who is intelligent, funny, and strong willed then you can also find that here.

Good luck to all of you, I have to say to all you 50+ yr olds that your 20 year old is probably in it for the money, but hey, if that makes you happy, then crack on.

[mattias33]

Not serious enough for me

*And on that note, I've got to go. There are much better options than this tired thread.

Yeah. I guess thats might be the reason why 20 % of the posts in this thread so far is from you? You just dont care at all about this tired subject, do you Kat?

"I’ve followed a number of threads of late discussing male/female relations in Thailand and note with much interest the extent to which western female commentators seem to promote shades of the Western liberalised views of the feminist movement.

Agreed. And also the fact that it always HAVE to be pointed out that "i dont care", and "this is not at alllllllllllllllllll important for me", when everybody see that these feminists usually owns these threads. Post, after post after post. In a subject that is totally uninteressting for them. I dont get that part.

My sense is that far too many Western female commentators on the topic of male/female equality are pursuing a “one size fits all” model around the globe and are actually quite insecure with the different model they see here in Thailand and other parts of Asia and The Far East.

Well, you put words on my thoughts. That might be the truth right there. Offcourse we will never know because the ones that could answer it will never "go that low" to tell us what they feel. They answer these questions with an direct attac on men instead, and then they tell us how little this mean to them. (with them its in this case generally speaking of feminist posters in threads like this one, no particular poster pointed out!) Seems like we have to keep on speculating in this issue, but i think you are quite close to the truth.

I truly believe that men and women have clearly defined roles and when you break away from those roles you have unhappy couples, maybe that is why we have such a high divorce rate in the west. There's nothing wrong with a strong woman, but she better hook up with an even stronger man or I think she will be unhappy. It's basic instinct, I've never seen a happy woman that was with a weak man. Constant fighting and disrespect is NOT normal and is a big sign that SOMEONES unhappy, which is what I see back in Canada ALL THE TIME with couples. Always when the man was too weak. I'm in trouble now!

Agree with most of your post.

I think you are and im pretty sure it makes 2 of us!

[chiang mai]

The question I posed initially was not a Troll and is a serious one although perhaps if I reword it, it might help some folks.

The relationship (and roles) between men and women in the West is more equal than it is in the East. In the West that equality is protected by law on a whole range of Equal Rights and Anti-Discrimination Legislation. The effect of that equalisation process over the past 100 years has caused the relative roles of men and women, and their attitudes towards each other, to change. In the East such legislation does not for the most part exist and the relationship (and roles) between men and women, and their attitudes towards each other are very different from those in the West.

My question is, do you think it's appropriate that the role of women in the East and the associated attitudes between men and women should change to reflect the Western model - is that something that should be promoted and does one size fit all - I say no.

As for Kat's ramblings thus far. If I read between the lines what I see is a western female saying, not this same old ground again, we've already had the battle over this in the West and we won years ago so let's not bother to go there again. On that basis I presume Kat believes that one size does fit all and the East should adopt the Western approach!

Edited November 18, 2007 by chiang mai

[sweetchariot]

The question I posed initially was not a Troll and is a serious one although perhaps if I reword it, it might help some folks.

The relationship (and roles) between men and women in the West is more equal than it is in the East. In the West that equality is protected by law on a whole range of Equal Rights and Anti-Discrimination Legislation. The effect of that equalisation process over the past 100 years has caused the relative roles of men and women, and their attitudes towards each other, to change. In the East such legislation does not for the most part exist and the relationship (and roles) between men and women, and their attitudes towards each other are very different from those in the West.

My question is, do you think it's appropriate that the role of women in the East and the associated attitudes between men and women should change to reflect the Western model - is that something that should be promoted and does one size fit all - I say no.

Yes, no, and maybe. It all depends on the girl, her intelligence level, and what she actually wants from the relationship.

Me and my g/f share chores (I like to cook, but don't do ironing). Does that make me sexist, or gay?

Roles and attitudes vary just as much over here as they do in the West IMHO. You can however buy a sex slave/ maid if you want, which is not so easy in the West.

[chiang mai]

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something. Plato"

LaoPo

Was going to let this one slide but then realised that you opened yourself up by posting without really saying anything and I think that was what Plato was referring to.

[mattias33]

My question is, do you think it's appropriate that the role of women in the East and the associated attitudes between men and women should change to reflect the Western model - is that something that should be promoted and does one size fit all - I say no.

As for Kat's ramblings thus far. If I read between the lines what I see is a western female saying, not this same old ground again, we've already had the battle over this in the West and we won years ago so let's not bother to go there again. On that basis I presume Kat believes that one size does fit all and the East should adopt the Western approach!

I also say no. I suppose its to much to hope for the other way around? Eastern model in the western world? Probably would take some generations to make it work again, but when i look at younger people in Europe today, they are moving towards a more eatern attitude, and realizing (also girls) that feminism is not only good. Maybe (if we look at a open perspective not only good for men but also for women) the best thing would be a combination. Something in between the western and eastern attitude between men and women?

[Naam]

i also think most fangra s and thai gurls marriage s are based on munney. even though the onslaught will cum on here and say me and tony is wrong.

why is it always these guys live in the villages.

beekause in de willatches u dont hav to yuse propper speling

[chiang mai]

I've read some garbage on this site before, but the OP here has leapt to pole position.

A) The claims the OP makes regarding to western women coming on this site and professing a form of feminism in which men and women are seen as equal and without difference in all respects are hogwash - I've never seen a feminist or anyone else claim as much on TV.

The norms between East and West are indeed different - Many a western man with 'Traditional Values' will tell you how women are home makers and not workers - certainly not manual labor workers. The evidence all around Thailand is that Thai women are both homemakers and workers and often manual workers. Ya' don't get many women digging ditches in the west (feminist or not).

C) What's all this Cr@p about it being dangerous to meddle with things as they are? A veiled excuse to leave things as they are because the suit the OP.

D) Thai women are able to figure out what they want - They don't need western feminists to TELL them what is best for them, they are quite capable of having a DIALOGUE with feminism and deciding what THEY want for THEMSELVES. Least of all they don't need foreign men to tell them what its best for them.

E) It is my observation that the Thai women I know who have moved to the west thrive in the opportunities western society offers them. In Thailand they are discovering for themselves that they can have a fairer society and if you think they are going to forgo those opportunities because it suits men, Thai or foreign, that things remain as they are then you are a bigger fool than your Opening Post suggests.

Traditional Western Men moving to Thailand and wearing the trousers in their own house.

Thailand is full of them – talking like a man out of the house and behaving like a mouse when at home.

I actually agree with some of the things you said although unsurprisingly, not all! If you accept that the roles of women and men in the West and different from those in the East, and I'm not talking about jobs necessarily, the key question I look to have answered is whether it or not it is appropriate to coerce/convince/persuade the people of the East to accept the Western model.

[Naam]

When these old white guys start having kids with young Thai girls then that is all wrong.

why?

Amongst other reasons that i wont mention here, older fathers are far more likely to have children with schizophrenia, Men aged 45 to 49 are twice as likely to have children with schizophrenia as men under the age of 25 who became fathers, while the risk triples for men over the age of 50.

moreover, it is a well known fact that children of fathers over 70 are bound to become terrorists

[sweetchariot]

When these old white guys start having kids with young Thai girls then that is all wrong.

why?

Amongst other reasons that i wont mention here, older fathers are far more likely to have children with schizophrenia, Men aged 45 to 49 are twice as likely to have children with schizophrenia as men under the age of 25 who became fathers, while the risk triples for men over the age of 50.

moreover, it is a well known fact that children of fathers over 70 are bound to become terrorists

.....or Klingons

[OlRedEyes]

I’ve followed a number of threads of late discussing male/female relations in Thailand and note with much interest the extent to which western female commentators seem to promote shades of the Western liberalised views of the feminist movement. Men and women are equal in every respect, the male is bad because he not (allegedly) as monogamous as the female and, most importantly, the female in the East should be regarded the same way as the female in the West, are all sound bites and more I detect.

My personal view is that this is all nonsense and that the vast majority of men and women have clearly defined roles, duties and capabilities and that Eastern culture is hugely different from Western culture and long may that survive – attempting to upset the order of those things is unhelpful and potentially dangerous, at a minimum it is annoying. My sense is that far too many Western female commentators on the topic of male/female equality are pursuing a “one size fits all” model around the globe and are actually quite insecure with the different model they see here in Thailand and other parts of Asia and The Far East.

Ladies, Gentlemen, should Asian females be treated and regarded here the same way as they are in the West or does that model not work here – I say it does not but you may have a different view.

I won't bother to comment or get involved in what will be a useless 'discussion'. The subject is way too sensitive for most people to handle with even a shred of objectivity.

I will however say that you have some very valid points imho.

[kat]

girls who grew up on farms are not the same as girls who grew up in the city and have a post secondary education. most of the farang in Thailand end up with the farm girls (for better or worse i am not judging). the girls who grew up in the city, went to university and can provide for themselves are more likely to resemble Western women and to have higher standards in their choice of a partner than the girls who grew up on a farm.

the major difference, IMO is not cultural, but financial.

An interesting response.

All this analysis is interesting. It becomes unfortunate though when those propounding a particular model are telling individuals what is right and what they should be.

As a westerner, we are conditioned to respect the individual and to want choice and opportunity. Ironically it is social stability that often brings the greatest happiness while a mobile society produces both winners and losers and much angst.

Societies differ. Vive les differences! Let nobody claim a monopoly on truth.

Andrew Hicks

Nice post, Andrew. I almost agree with you, except that it is not necessarily stability itself that brings social happiness; again, I think it's CHOICE. For example, in Damian's case (sorry, but you're a good example, Damian), he is a traditional guy who is a self-proclaimed sexist, but his girlfriend is an educated professional with her own income. He is a young, hip, good-looking guy that is not limited by his choices, either. Presumably, their relationship TOGETHER falls along traditional lines, but is not an economic or social necessity for either of them, but rather their CHOICE, based on a wider array of options for both. If she was a poor woman without any other better options, or he was much more limited socially, it could easily follow that economic or social stability resulted in lieu of happiness, not because of it.

*EDIT: Therefore, I say, it really is Viva La Choice; Viva La Difference is just a cheap consolation prize.

There's nothing wrong with a strong woman, but she better hook up with an even stronger man or I think she will be unhappy. It's basic instinct, I've never seen a happy woman that was with a weak man. Constant fighting and disrespect is NOT normal and is a big sign that SOMEONES unhappy, which is what I see back in Canada ALL THE TIME with couples. Always when the man was too weak. I'm in trouble now!

Damian

Basic instincts do not need an assigned role or script to present themselves, in fact they are much more naturally expressed on their own. Does fire care whether or not it is stronger than oxygen to burn? I think you are right about strength, but what is most important is that he is as strong as her opposite, so that their chemical reaction makes them more of who they are together. Roles and scripts are more concerned with predictability and security than they are with nature. That's fine, too, but if he is able to completely be his self while she is completely herself in their most natural state, then he's strong enough to make her happy, because biology is already a given.

Of course, if he can open jars, fix the stereo, and do taxes, then that's a bonus - for me.

Finally Kat is making some sense! (Btw you have said you are leaving this thread on at least 3 occassions).

I have a Thai g/f, we have been living together for nearly 18 months now, and never been happier. She is a strong, indepent, intelligent girl. I like to think I am the same.

I am not middle aged, and she is not 20.

I have a friend who is about 15 years older than me, and the biggest chauvenist I have ever met. He has a wife who is 20, weak willed, and quite frankly dumb. He barks instructions and she obeys (I think the only English she knows is bacon, eggs, tea, and blow-job). He has been through a messy divorce in the UK, and says he has never been happier.

Whilst I don't understand my friend, it just proves the point that everyone is different, and likes different things. If you want a sex slave who will pander to your every whim, then you can buy that here, at very reasonable rates. If you are a bit younger and want a life partner who is intelligent, funny, and strong willed then you can also find that here.

Good luck to all of you, I have to say to all you 50+ yr olds that your 20 year old is probably in it for the money, but hey, if that makes you happy, then crack on.

I've been making sense all along SC, it's just that it's relevant to you now. But, thanks for your comments.

Yeah, I knew I'd get slated for changing my mind, but interesting comments have a way of pulling me back in, so thanks to them.

I really don't have time for people who obviously can't read or who think in cliches, so I'll just ignore the ranters.

Edited November 18, 2007 by kat

[GuestHouse]

the key question I look to have answered is whether it or not it is appropriate to coerce/convince/persuade the people of the East to accept the Western model.

There is no evidence that such coercion/convincing/persuasion is taking place.

There is plenty of evidence (here in this thread) of western men expecting Asian women to conform to some “Asian ideal” which in truth is actually something that is dreamed up by western men who have little or no real understanding of what “Asian Values and Customs” are.

[chiang mai]

the key question I look to have answered is whether it or not it is appropriate to coerce/convince/persuade the people of the East to accept the Western model.

There is no evidence that such coercion/convincing/persuasion is taking place.

There is plenty of evidence (here in this thread) of western men expecting Asian women to conform to some “Asian ideal” which in truth is actually something that is dreamed up by western men who have little or no real understanding of what “Asian Values and Customs” are.

Then you must lead a somewhat sheltered life and/or have minimal contact with Western women who visit Asia for the first time and listen to their views on what's right and wrong here. The things that spawned my original post (amongst other things) was having just had two female house guests visit Thailand for the first time, one from Aus and one from the US and both very feminist in their outlook. Between the two of them I have endured two weeks of near non stop rantings about how women in Thailand would never possibly be treated and regarded the same way "back home" and how things here have to change.

[lannarebirth]

I'm not sure Eastern male'fe,ale relationships should change to more reflect western male/female relationship values. Unless by adopting western values you mean they'd stop beating and raping their wives with no legal ramifications. That maybe adultery coould be cause for divorce, and that child support must be payed and police would enforce such payment.

I understand that a lot of men got caught in the switches of the whole male/female equality change in the west. It wasn't the easiest of transitions and I'm sure it's not over yet. Some would say the western women became men and why would you want a man? I think it will take a generation or two to seek a level where both genders can be comfortable with each other. That said, nothing at all wrong with the laws and it's the behavior that's slower to change. It will work the same way here, but it's coming all the same.

[chiang mai]

I'm not sure Eastern male'fe,ale relationships should change to more reflect western male/female relationship values. Unless by adopting western values you mean they'd stop beating and raping their wives with no legal ramifications. That maybe adultery coould be cause for divorce, and that child support must be payed and police would enforce such payment.

I understand that a lot of men got caught in the switches of the whole male/female equality change in the west. It wasn't the easiest of transitions and I'm sure it's not over yet. Some would say the western women became men and why would you want a man? I think it will take a generation or two to seek a level where both genders can be comfortable with each other. That said, nothing at all wrong with the laws and it's the behavior that's slower to change. It will work the same way here, but it's coming all the same.

And if it's a process of natural evolution that's a good thing in my book. I risk this thread running off track if I try to make the analogy with the Western view that democracy is good for everyone in all countries so you will change now attitude - it isn't good for everyone everywhere and trying to force a change doesn't work..