Why Do Western People Use The Word "farang"?

[Richard W]

I was told that it comes from the first foriengers that came to Thailand, who were French, french-farang???? So now anyone that is not asian is basically cased as this

I don't think it is that insulting,

1. The first Europeans in Thailand were the Portuguese.

2. The Portuguese brought the guava to SE Asia, which is why it is called farang in Thai.

3. Many people would be deeply offended to be called French.

4. Are Greeks offended to be called farangs? After all, the Greek form of 'farang' is translated as 'Frank', and the Greeks definitely do not consider themselves to be Franks!

[farang prince]

You folks have way too much time on your hands. A total of 311 posts. Incredible. For tomorrow's inane subject, let's discuss why Thai's pick their nose.

[ade100]

Altho I would prefer to use the word foreigner. I also find myself using the word farang, it dossent say much for our self respect.

I doubt very much if the Chinese in the UK refer to themselves as Chinks, or the Portuguese as porko's

It's such a shame theres not a word for the Thai race that we could come straight back with when they call us farang instead of having to politely call them Thais.

Thank you! Self respect! This is one of the points I was hinting at in my original post. Adopting this "farang" word seems to deny the wonderful diversity of the countires, cultures and ethnicities of our origins.

And yes it would be like anyone from one of the "oriental" countries referring to themselves as a "chinky" or a "slant eyes"

It took us 311 posts to get there but we got there.

[Jingthing]

The English phrase "Thai people" (many theories as to its origin) is used both as an adjective and a noun to talk about Thai descent (commonly called Asian) people and/or their cultures/countries.

That is silly because Thai people is about the people from a SPECIFIC nation, while farang is without question a more ambiguous word. There is no actual nation called FARANGLAND. Got it now?

Edited November 29, 2007 by Jingthing

[Chloe82]

And yes it would be like anyone from one of the "oriental" countries referring to themselves as a "chinky" or a "slant eyes"

It took us 311 posts to get there but we got there.

Your so wrong that i cant be bothered to even start.

If you learn to speak and understand the language at a reasonable level (took me around 240 hours in class and alot of self study) you will have a far better understanding of these cultural differences.

[kingofthenight]

In Italy we call Asia people "YELLOW FACES"

But we do not point ours finger to them and say loud voice "YELLOW FACES!!"

as thais do when they see FARANG.

Of course in city like Bangkok or tourism city it does not happen, because they are accostumed at foreigner.

But in the small cities or villagges if you walk alone you can hear thais say the word FARANG

everytime watch you and often they point their finger to you, like they feel you are different.

That could make you feel a bit unconfortable.

Is it a smart matter ?

Is it polite ?

Is it good to speak loud "FARANG" ?

Thais (the most of them) are like the kids.

They say what they think freely, without understand what can hurt and what don't.

Give them beer, wiscky, music, karaoke and party all times and they will be happy.

Maybe a little civil could be not bad for thais....but it need a very long time to get it.

And what about they like to take advantage of estern people about money ?

Often in places as museum, natural park, zoo, wat, etc...

for example thais pay 50 Baht, eastern people 250 Baht.

5 times more.

why we do have to accept that ?

Is it correct ?

Why should I pay more ?

Isn't that racist ?

WELCOME TO THAILAND, the smile land!!!

[Jingthing]

We have to ACCEPT everything about Thailand if we want to live here among the Thais in their land. We don't have to LIKE all of it and we can have our opinions about it, but, yes, accept it, or see your travel agent.

This is not the same thing as saying love it or leave it. But if you can't find it in your heart to accept the unpleasant parts of Thailand and for you the pleasant parts don't make it worth it to stay, is somebody making you stay?

Edited November 29, 2007 by Jingthing

[ade100]

I have also been shocked at seeing at museums and galleries the Thai price and the foreigner price. I once checked with them and was told the foreigner price was for anyone that wasn't Thai, not just Westerners. I then thought if Thais are contributing to the upkeep of national treasures through their taxes, why not give them a cheaper rate.

In the UK there is a more subtle way of doing exactly the same thing. One ride on the tube/metro costs about 4 GBP (about 300 thb). However it is only tourists that will be paying this price because Londoners have season tickets so get their travel a fraction of the price.

[Gimbo]

Thais (the most of them) are like the kids.

They say what they think freely, without understand what can hurt and what don't.

Give them beer, wiscky, music, karaoke and party all times and they will be happy.

I if somone gave me whiskey, beer, music, karaoke and party all times, i would be happy too

[mr_hippo]

In Italy we call Asia people "YELLOW FACES" Isn't that term racist?

But we do not point ours finger to them and say loud voice "YELLOW FACES!!"

as thais do when they see FARANG.

Of course in city like Bangkok or tourism city it does not happen, Oh, yes, it does! because they are accostumed at foreigner.

But in the small cities or villagges if you walk alone you can hear thais say the word FARANG Do they mean 'foreigner' or 'guava?

everytime watch you and often they point their finger to you, like they feel you are different. but you are!

That could make you feel a bit unconfortable.

Is it a smart matter ?

Is it polite ?

Is it good to speak loud "FARANG" ?

Thais (the most of them) are like the kids.

They say what they think freely, without understand what can hurt and what don't.

Give them beer, wiscky, music, karaoke and party all times and they will be happy.

I find the three previous lines very offensive, what social class are you mixing with? If you lie down with dogs, you'll get up with fleas!

Maybe a little civil could be not bad for thais....but it need a very long time to get it.

Maybe some farang should learn to be civil!

And what about they like to take advantage of estern people about money ?

Often in places as museum, natural park, zoo, wat, etc...

for example thais pay 50 Baht, eastern people 250 Baht.

5 times more.

why we do have to accept that ?

Is it correct ?

Why should I pay more ?

Isn't that racist ?

I'll be quite happy for farang to pay Thai prices but on one condition - they get paid Thai wages!

WELCOME TO THAILAND, the smile land!!!

[meadish_sweetball]

Yeah of course, but if you have a farang buying it at a farang market, calling it farang food kind of makes sense in Thai logic, eh?

No, it's not called farang food, it's called kaek food, maybe his girlfriend can not tell the difference, however this is no representitive of Thai people, only maybe a certain sector of society.

We agree again, on a roll, it is not farang food. But the mistake is understandable.

As long we are splitting farang hairs (what fun), what about Indians? They are racially actually racially caucasians. Why don't Thais call them farangs as well?

Because the cultures have been in fairly close contact with one another for a long time, and because speaking broadly, the style of dress and body language differ markedly from the 'farang' norm.

For obvious reasons it's normal for a language to have specific words for familiar things, whereas there may be gaps in vocabulary for things that are not commonly seen or experienced.

As an example, neither English nor Swedish has specific vocabulary in the common language (not counting Latin scientific terms which are not known to the vast majority of people) for all the different types of trees and flowers you can see in Thailand, although on a relative scale, English has more due to closer contact with Asia through colonialism.

That being said, I have a good friend in Bangkok whose parents are (subcontinental) Indians, 100%. She has lived all her life in Thailand, but in the market Thai people still talk about her as 'farang' and think she does not understand Thai, because she does not look typically Indian due to her skin colour and features, which for some reason really do look more Southern European/Latin than Indian.

[ade100]

Yeah of course, but if you have a farang buying it at a farang market, calling it farang food kind of makes sense in Thai logic, eh?

No, it's not called farang food, it's called kaek food, maybe his girlfriend can not tell the difference, however this is no representitive of Thai people, only maybe a certain sector of society.

We agree again, on a roll, it is not farang food. But the mistake is understandable.

As long we are splitting farang hairs (what fun), what about Indians? They are racially actually racially caucasians. Why don't Thais call them farangs as well?

Because the cultures have been in fairly close contact with one another for a long time, and because speaking broadly, the style of dress and body language differ markedly from the 'farang' norm.

For obvious reasons it's normal for a language to have specific words for familiar things, whereas there may be gaps in vocabulary for things that are not commonly seen or experienced.

As an example, neither English nor Swedish has specific vocabulary in the common language (not counting Latin scientific terms which are not known to the vast majority of people) for all the different types of trees and flowers you can see in Thailand, although on a relative scale, English has more due to closer contact with Asia through colonialism.

That being said, I have a good friend in Bangkok whose parents are (subcontinental) Indians, 100%. She has lived all her life in Thailand, but in the market Thai people still talk about her as 'farang' and think she does not understand Thai, because she does not look typically Indian due to her skin colour and features, which for some reason really do look more Southern European/Latin than Indian.

Agreed. In English we have the word "Palm tree". There are over 3000 varieties. The other day I discivered there are many different types of coconut palm in Thailand. We just don't have any words for them in English.

But back to my original question. When in English we have so many words that can be used to accurately describe racial, national, linguistic and ethnic groups, why do we adopt the word "farang" which is clearly a makeshift attempt to paper over a vocabulaic black hole?

[meadish_sweetball]

Two reasons I think, apart from that of convenience mentioned above:

1. Trying to adjust to/identify with the host culture.

2. As a social marker - by using Thai words in English conversation with other Westerners, you identify yourself as belonging to the 'Westerner [interested] in Thailand' group.

[Dustoff]

What a dizzying thread!

Not unfamiliar however. Having lived in Hawaii for quite a long time, I have seen this very same discussion ad nauseam over the word Haole which, roughly translated, simply means foreigner.

While the debate still (likely always will) rages on over the meaning and intent, it remains a ridiculous argument.

My Thai wife, who I just asked about the implications of the word "farang" says, "It depends on two things: the intent of the person who said it and the interpretation of the person who hears it. The word itself is neutral."

In Hawaii the original intent of the word "haole" was literally translated as "foreigner" but it was positive in that it also meant "stranger to our land", in other words, someone to welcome and help to understand our ways. It is difficult to find the original meaning but according to some very old Kahunas I spoke with, it was originally used to identify other Hawaiians who came from one of the other islands who were the only foreigners they saw until Capt. Cook and others showed up from other worlds/cultures.

Over the many decades of foreign tourism and capitalistic endeavors, that very same word can now be spoken in kindness or derision, depending on the attitude of the speaker just as the word "black" can be deeply negative or a simple identification of color.

The real concern for me is the farangs who come over here with their own built-in insecurities. Who cares what others call us or even what their intent is? I have traveled through many couintries where I was the nigger, infidel, long pig, Merkin, et al. but if my own sense of security and self worth are intact, what dif...?

For those who insist that every, or even most Thais who use the term are projecting negativity, get a life and give your negative imagination a rest, eh?

[Chloe82]

Nice post Dustoff, I realy enjoyed reading it, just one question though. How were you once Long Pig if you are still alive? Maybe i am missing something here but i always thought Long Pig was cooked human flesh.

I may be wrong though.

PS. By Merkin i assume you are reffering to those who exhibit "ugly American" tendencies and not a false vagina.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Chloe82

[mr_hippo]

Agreed. In English we have the word "Palm tree". There are over 3000 varieties. The other day I discivered there are many different types of coconut palm in Thailand. We just don't have any words for them in English.

But back to my original question. When in English we have so many words that can be used to accurately describe racial, national, linguistic and ethnic groups, why do we adopt the word "farang" which is clearly a makeshift attempt to paper over a vocabulaic black hole?

Are palm trees native to the British Isles? No. The Inuit have 17 different words for 'snow', why don't we? We do have snow in the British Isles, don't we? So why don't we have 17 different words for 'snow'? 'Palm tree' covers all types of members of the Palmae family. Different types of snow? We just use different adjectives to describe it!

meadish_sweetball comes from Sweden, why have we anglicized 'Sverige', could it be that we find it easier to say? Why do we adopt words? It is because we don't have that particular word in our lexicon. We can make up new words, as you did with 'vocabulaic' or we can just take the Italian 'pizza', for example, and use that!

Bangkok is a multi-lingual city, we don't have a common language that is spoken to the same level of competence. Do you travel on the skytrain? Two English words combined that have no meaning back in the UK to the general populace. If you were to travel from Lat Phrao to Asoke, would you use the tube, the metro, the underground, the subway or the MRT? Speak to a Pole, he may not know the meaning of the first four but he does know what the MRT is! Ask the same Pole in Jeddah (he travels a bit, doesn't he?) does he have a work permit and resident's booklet, he may not know but ask him if he has an iqama and he knows what you are talking about!

Go on to a Korean forum and ask why do we use 'kimchi' as it is not an English word.

Go on to a Saudi forum and ask why do we use 'iqama' as it is not an English word.

Words start off by being adopted by the expat community and sometimes pass into general use - it bridges any misunderstanding between English speakers.

If you talk about 'foreigners', who are you referring to? I would use it to refer to people who are not British, I certainly do not regard myself as a 'foreigner', expat-yes but not foreigner.

[Dustoff]

Nice post Dustoff, I realy enjoyed reading it, just one question though. How were you once Long Pig if you are still alive? Maybe i am missing something here but i always thought Long Pig was cooked human flesh.

I may be wrong though.

I am medically identified as PE - Partially Eaten.

A rump roast usually refers to cooked meat as well but we can still see one on the animal while it is still alive, in anticipation of a future meal, yes?

Thank you for the compliment, Chloe

[ade100]

What a dizzying thread!

Not unfamiliar however. Having lived in Hawaii for quite a long time, I have seen this very same discussion ad nauseam over the word Haole which, roughly translated, simply means foreigner.

While the debate still (likely always will) rages on over the meaning and intent, it remains a ridiculous argument.

My Thai wife, who I just asked about the implications of the word "farang" says, "It depends on two things: the intent of the person who said it and the interpretation of the person who hears it. The word itself is neutral."

In Hawaii the original intent of the word "haole" was literally translated as "foreigner" but it was positive in that it also meant "stranger to our land", in other words, someone to welcome and help to understand our ways. It is difficult to find the original meaning but according to some very old Kahunas I spoke with, it was originally used to identify other Hawaiians who came from one of the other islands who were the only foreigners they saw until Capt. Cook and others showed up from other worlds/cultures.

Over the many decades of foreign tourism and capitalistic endeavors, that very same word can now be spoken in kindness or derision, depending on the attitude of the speaker just as the word "black" can be deeply negative or a simple identification of color.

The real concern for me is the farangs who come over here with their own built-in insecurities. Who cares what others call us or even what their intent is? I have traveled through many couintries where I was the nigger, infidel, long pig, Merkin, et al. but if my own sense of security and self worth are intact, what dif...?

For those who insist that every, or even most Thais who use the term are projecting negativity, get a life and give your negative imagination a rest, eh?

Some great points here. It seems so many cultures have a vague word that applies to foreigners or people who are "other".

Just as a reminder. The title of the thread is not "do we get all upset when Thais call "Farang"?" It is " Why Do Western People Use The Word "farang"?"

[sbk]

Some great points here. It seems so many cultures have a vague word that applies to foreigners or people who are "other".

Just as a reminder. The title of the thread is not "do we get all upset when Thais call "Farang"?" It is " Why Do Western People Use The Word "farang"?"

Curious, what word do you use for a Caucasian person of unknown nationality or ethnicity?

[sylviex]

Some great points here. It seems so many cultures have a vague word that applies to foreigners or people who are "other".

Just as a reminder. The title of the thread is not "do we get all upset when Thais call "Farang"?" It is " Why Do Western People Use The Word "farang"?"

Curious, what word do you use for a Caucasian person of unknown nationality or ethnicity?

Depends on numerous contextual factors, I'd say.

Anyway, I'd like to know what the really negative terms Thais have for foreigners -- they must have some, as all languages probably must. Anybody know ?

[wilko]

Merkin - a pubic wig.....

the problem with any name for grouping a "type" is that it denies to some extent their individuality and equality.

even if the user intends no insult or beieves they intend no insult they are stereotyping - they may not be aware of this but they are.

You wouldn't call someone a Negro nowadays would you even though it was used as a friendly term as recently as the 60s in the USA - it has far too many problems - A US citizen or a "Negro" US citizen immediately differentiates but for no real reason

[ade100]

Some great points here. It seems so many cultures have a vague word that applies to foreigners or people who are "other".

Just as a reminder. The title of the thread is not "do we get all upset when Thais call "Farang"?" It is " Why Do Western People Use The Word "farang"?"

Curious, what word do you use for a Caucasian person of unknown nationality or ethnicity?

If I don’t know their nationality I use the word “Caucasian”. I know this word sounds a bit weird in Thailand because everyone loves the F word but in Singapore, where I spend about half my time, “Caucasian” is used all the time.

It just sounds so weird to me when I come back from Singapore to Thailand and hear Westerners referring to themselves as “farang”.

[mr_hippo]

Curious, what word do you use for a Caucasian person of unknown nationality or ethnicity?

Farang?

[sbk]

So, in Thailand the word Farang is used, in Singapore the word Caucasian is used. So, perhaps the answer is as simple as that. Thai people use the word farang for all westerners of unknown nationality. Singaporeans use Caucasian, according to you. Why wouldn't someone adapt a useful word used by the natives of where they live?

Curious then, what word would you use in Europe? Would you guess on the nationality? Bit dangerous that, might offend if you get it wrong.

[haltes]

Surely if some people find it offensive then it shouldn't be used, personally I think it shows ignorance but then Thailand has decades to go before it needs to think about multiculturalism!

[sylviex]

So, in Thailand the word Farang is used, in Singapore the word Caucasian is used. So, perhaps the answer is as simple as that. Thai people use the word farang for all westerners of unknown nationality. Singaporeans use Caucasian, according to you. Why wouldn't someone adapt a useful word used by the natives of where they live?

Curious then, what word would you use in Europe? Would you guess on the nationality? Bit dangerous that, might offend if you get it wrong.

In countries/areas with more diverse populations, people will often hazard a guess at nationality (referring to another, not to their face) and will often be correct. But more likely, I'd think, they'd say "the tall guy" or "the woman in red" without refrering to nationality/ethnicity at all.

Edited November 29, 2007 by sylviex

[sbk]

Really? So if the person was the only Asian in a group of white people you'd say "The guy in the red shirt" instead of "The Asian guy" ?

So, if you are the only white skinned foreigner in a room would you be offended if someone said, "Its for the farang" or would it be better if they said "The guy in the red shirt" even though you are the only white person there?

Lets face it, Thailand is fairly homogeneous. It is not multi-cultural. So, there really hasn't been any need to develop alternative ways to explain people who look differently.

And its pretty clear most foreigners pick it up from listening to local usage.

I am really not sure why this is such a big deal or why it even matters if foreigners in Thailand use the term farang when referring to foreigners of unknown nationality.

[sylviex]

Really? So if the person was the only Asian in a group of white people you'd say "The guy in the red shirt" instead of "The Asian guy" ?

Yes.

Maybe "the Chinese man" if one knew that, but in general, specifically not "the Asian"/"black"/"white".

Note that people in many countries now have very mixed heritages, too, so many people can't be quite so simply identified.

So, if you are the only white skinned foreigner in a room would you be offended if someone said, "Its for the farang" or would it be better if they said "The guy in the red shirt" even though you are the only white person there?

Not really bothered personally, as I understand about it, and the context here is different.

Lets face it, Thailand is fairly homogeneous. It is not multi-cultural. So, there really hasn't been any need developed to come up with alternative ways to explain people who look differently.

Yes, I think that's right. However, they must sometimes need to distinguish between farangs, so I guess they might then use physical features/clothing or similar means.

I am really not sure why this is such a big deal or why it even matters if foreigners in Thailand use the term farang when referring to foreigners of unknown nationality.

I think, as someone pointed out above, it can feel unwelcoming, by dwelling on difference, or suggest that person is not part of the "in-group", or make them feel dismissed or objectified in some way.

However, unless used with obvious hostility, I think most of us soon understand it's not intended that way.

Edited November 29, 2007 by sylviex

[sbk]

Since the OP was concerned about foreigners in Thailand using the word, I can't say that I've heard many use it in a hostile manner.

[sylviex]

Since the OP was concerned about foreigners in Thailand using the word, I can't say that I've heard many use it in a hostile manner.

I have heard it used by foreigners with some disgust !