Gay Alternatives Asia, Se Asia And Beyond.

[pauleddy]

I have been meaning to start this thread, so here goes....

In general, where is the 'best' place to be if you are gay? I am trying to get a sensible, balanced view. What I mean is that I know that everyone will have different ideas and desires. Some people will orient their response towards saunas and sex, others to "culture". Some will be wealthier than others/older/younger/etc. I realise that there are so many variables, and that some people will tend to favour a place because the BF lives there. It's all a bit subjective for serious research, but opinions are welcomed.

Until about three months ago, I was getting fed up with BKK. So, I went to KL for a few days (again). I like KL, and I really wanted to have a good look around, exploring whether I could live there. I took the monorail out to some suburbs, and quickly realised that most of KL was nondescript. The 'gay life' is mainly in the centre. I was pleased to get back to BKK. I enjoy the saunas occasionally, but I like my condo, my friends, the food, the shops, most of the people, soi 4 occasionally, etc. I have lived in London, Amsterdam and other western places.

A friend says that Shanghai is good now. Another is going to live in a 'gay resort' in Mexico. I don't like Phuket at all, but could live in certain parts of Krabi, except that there is no real gay life there. I loathe Pattaya, for all of the usual hate-Pattaya reasons. I have been to Chang Mai, and found that the small bar and sauna scene is ok for a few days...perhaps it could "grow" on you after a bit.

Where would you wish to be? Why?

[PeaceBlondie]

I'm seriously thinking of Mexico, and my teacher friends there tell me you don't have to go to Puerto Vallarta to live a gay life. Having lived there before, I believe them. However, for now, Chiang Mai works for me (PM me for details).

[arco27]

I have been living about half the year in Byron Bay Australia, a great place, very beautiful tolerant with nice beaches (especially the gay nud_e one), the other half of the year I spend in Thailand, mainly Phuket, which you say you hate. I love it, but I hardly ever go to Patong and the Paradise Centre, my house is in Rawai on the South side of the island and I do most of my socializing there or in Phuket Town. I sometimes spend a week or so in Krung Thep, it is great fun and caters to some of the kinkier sides of my life, but after a while the intensity and pollution gets to me (same as it does in Sydney, an other great "gay" town) so I am always glad to escape back to Phuket. I got lots of friends in southern Thailand and often drive for visits to Sonkghla, HatYai, Trang, Krabi, Surat Thani etc. all great places. Kho Samui and Kho Phangan are very nice, but rather expensive and I also like Kho Chang. I guess when I finally settle somewhere it will probably be Rawai in Phuket, or maybe I discover an other amazing place

[Jingthing]

I like Buenos Aires but unless you are fluent in Spanish, good looking and young enough, the locals (except the taxi boys) won't be interested in you at all. However, the Bolivian illegal immigrants will. Go figure.

The one thing about Spanish speaking countries is that it is easy enough that if you don't bother to learn the language you are considered lazy and/or stupid. In Thailand you are not really expected to become fluent.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Jingthing

[Scott]

Given my choice (should I ever leave Thailand), # 1 would be San Francisco and #2 would be Amsterdam, although overall the weather and other factors make SF # 1 for me.

For now, good old BKK is just fine.

[999999roses]

My choice would be San Fancisco too.

I have lived in many gay friendly cities like Tokyo, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Hamburg and London.

Of all these places, I like San Francisco the most.

[farang prince]

If you want to live in San Francisco, you better have deep pockets or rob a bank. Very expensive there. If I wasn't going to live in Bkk, I'd probably look at Kuala Lumpur because it is a lovely city with great shopping and a good gay scene. Plus Malaysians speak English and they are almost as attractive as Thais. And if I wanted to live on the wild side, I'd go to Cagayan de Oro in the Philippines, which seems to have more gays and shemales per capita than just about any place in the Pacific Rim, with the exception of Pattaya. Plus, IMHO, Filipinos are better lovers than Thais.

Edited December 1, 2007 by farang prince

[Jingthing]

I agree, prince, I left my wisdom teeth in San Francisco and lived there many years, but it has become a city of rich people now. It no longer has the critical mass of interesting/bohemian/artistic people because they have been PRICED OUT.

Edited December 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[Paagai]

Where would you wish to be? Why?

Taipei (Taiwan) does it for me! Best gay city on the planet, full of super cute Chinese guys looking for older westerners , and they want to buy you breakfast (we all no how that one goes in Thailand.....)! Go there often on business, always stay a weekend and never fail to have a great time . After several years have a good circle of friends there, and an ex boyfriend . Not that many gay venues compared with other places, but quality beats quantity!

I thought it was a dump at first, until I discovered its underground gay culture and friendly people. Gay is still a Chinese cultural taboo and many guys are in the closet with family pressure to marry. the city is changing rapidly and becoming far more modern/western, and also expensive. The pace of life is fast, the city large, crowded dirty and polluted; not somwhere to go for relaxtion, peace and quiet etc. Language is a problem, English is not as common as it is in Thailand. If I had a good business reason too I'd love to live there.

Seoul is a fun city too!

That said, I still love Chiang Mai for the laid back life style and many, many friends here (Mainly Thai or Tai Yai...... but I know one or too tolerable Farangs too )

I also love Italy, but for a mainstream country gay life is awful! The Catholic church has a lot to do with this, but also, most of the Italian Gays I've met are major attitude queens (I hate to stereo type, but I haven't met a nice one yet!).

[pauleddy]

Some interesting replies! I had been told to avoid Taiwan! Mmmmm...

Yes, I know about attitude queens. I lived in Southern Spain for seven years. The coast there is full of Brit low-life. The other great shame is that the local gays have changed over the past 20-odd years. With some exceptions, they are now ageist, racist, and have their heads totally up their small-town backsides.

I believe this to be a gay socio-cultural phenomenon. When gays become more sophisticated, and a local gay scene grows, there is more discrimination against folk who are not young and beautiful. Even the younger Thais are now starting to become a bit disrespectful and ageist (I am 50). Despite the fact that I am getting older and fatter, I can remember a time when young Spanish men were friendly, respectful and "willing" (in every way). Maybe the same goes for Thais. Of course, these are generalisations, as you will always find young who seek older etc.

Maybe I am being over-simplistic, but I truly believe that it's not just 'cos I am getting older. Attitude gets worse with sophistication. It should be the other way.

xx

Edited December 1, 2007 by pauleddy

[asdsrfr]

I would vote for Mexico City. The gay scene there is great with lots of cute, fun guys who are anxious to meet you. The pollution problem is substantially improved, and I believe the problems with crime are improving as well.

The city is exciting, lots to see and do--and if you want to get out of town some beautiful beach towns are short inexpensive flights away.

I was there a few months ago and loved it!

[Weho]

It has to do with what your nationality is, what your choices are, and how much $ you've got. We can't all just move into apartments in San Francisco. I was surprised someone mentioned Taiwan, but i suppose i can work for some...

I know that Puerta Vallarta is getting very expensive, and it really only has a handful of gay bars, not real nice ones either. A friend told me the Philippines is a good choice.

Oh yeah, it also depends on what your needs are to be homo in public... like if that's a big deal to you, go to Thailand, San Francisco, Amsterdam, etc. I doubt Taipei would be a great choice for gay activists/members of the "gay community"...

You do call it "community", right? Sounds so much better than "a bunch of b***-f*****s".

Edited December 3, 2007 by Weho

[pauleddy]

Yes, we smugly call it a "community", but the only thing that many have in common is the sex act (in its various man on man permutations).

In the 80s I was involved in organising Gay Pride in my home country. In retrospect, there was much more solidarity and "brotherhood" (I'm not just saying this as a grouchy older queen). People would want to speak to you and find out about you; to know you better. People would even take the time to help you out.

Now, you are normally just ignored, or even snarled at (or at least given a filthy look) by complete strangers in bars, clubs, saunas etc (unless you are a stunning twinky). Granted that LOS is still relatively friendly in places, but..... In general, guys do not mix well with eachother. I heard that SF is still happy-gay-town, but I hear now that London is even worse than it used to be for attitude. Cold, hard, nasty queers.

Many times I find myself wishing that we weren't so unfeeling and cold towards people just like us, people with the same problems and joys. There are plenty of straights out there if you want to be hated (not all of them are like that, of course).

I guess it's tied-up with the self-loathing thing. And, unless you are very strong you will find that, over the years, you may start to ignore people or growl at them. It rubs off. I used to be a "very nice guy", but I got some odd looks from those attitude queens when I was being my normal friendly caring human self. After being "nice" 1000 times, not just for sex.... I just gave up. Guess I'm not that strong.

xxx

Edited December 3, 2007 by pauleddy

[Weho]

i think the young twinky homos of today have no appreciation for the older queens, who fought for some civil rights, got punched in the face a bunch of times, so THEY can prance around in relative freedom, in many places. they are clueless as to what it used to be like. no, it;'s still not perfect, but it's generally a lot better than it used to be in most places. and it's not like the older queens expect the young twinks to come up to them, and just bow and thank them 24 hours a day, but ONCE IN A WHILE, it would be nice to hear of someone under say 30, that recognizes how they got to have openly gay bars, even in places like Singapore, Spain, most of the U.S. and A., all of latin america, etc.

[peekint]

I'm in love with Chiang Mai, though I moved here already in a relationship (which was established in Bangkok). For a single guy, I don't know that this is such a great place to meet Gay friends (Thai or Farang), unless you are in some way connected to the University.

One Asian place that didn't get mentioned (and, probably has the same problem as San Francisco - price) is Hong Kong. The government is actually quite supportive of the Gay community, and, though there is the usual Chinese family BS to deal with (as with Thai Chinese here), I think the number of Gay men in HK must be a very high percent. I lived there 10 years, and never met a guy in a bar. Just take the subway and smile or join one of the English language chat rooms there and you'll have more friends than you know what to do with. HK guys generally like older professionals, are relationship oriented, and are probably more "internationally mobile" than most Thais (easier now to get a visa with a HK passport than with a Thai one) if you want a traveling companion.

The bar/club scene in HK is full of wanna-be star(lets) who know how to give attitude and drink too much, but the common HK Gay guy seems to be pretty nice and have it together. Easy to develop friendships as well as fuc*ships, which is a nice plus.

[midas]

You dont say places to live permanently so I would like to contribute 2 places

where I had some really interesting experiences ! :-

1. St Petersburg Russia - there are some very attractive Russia guys and

Russia is developing a thriving gsy community also in Moscow and

even outlying towns such as in Siberia.

2. Havana, Cuba - Raul Castro is gay but even under Fidel the gay scene is growing.

But Raul there will be even less to worry about. The Cubansare laid back, love their music

and are lovely people and there some very attractive " mixed raced " people there

[ckhl]

I'm in love with Chiang Mai, though I moved here already in a relationship (which was established in Bangkok). For a single guy, I don't know that this is such a great place to meet Gay friends (Thai or Farang), unless you are in some way connected to the University.

Hi. I am curious by what you said in your recent post. I am considering relocating to Chiang Mai after a twelve-year stint in the Middle East. I don't wish to settle in Bangkok. I"ve heard there's a "critical mass" of gay people in Chiang Mai. How difficult is it to get full-time work at the univeristy? I have an MA in TESL, a CELTA and more than 15 years experience teaching English. I'll be traveling to Chiang Mai at the end of January to take a look. The last time I was there was many years ago while I was living in Malaysia. I should be grateful for any advice you may give me. Thank you.

[PeaceBlondie]

I'm in love with Chiang Mai, though I moved here already in a relationship (which was established in Bangkok). For a single guy, I don't know that this is such a great place to meet Gay friends (Thai or Farang), unless you are in some way connected to the University.

Hi. I am curious by what you said in your recent post. I am considering relocating to Chiang Mai after a twelve-year stint in the Middle East. I don't wish to settle in Bangkok. I"ve heard there's a "critical mass" of gay people in Chiang Mai. How difficult is it to get full-time work at the university? I have an MA in TESL, a CELTA and more than 15 years experience teaching English. I'll be traveling to Chiang Mai at the end of January to take a look. The last time I was there was many years ago while I was living in Malaysia. I should be grateful for any advice you may give me. Thank you.

I guess I'm supposed to know a few things about teaching, gay, and Chiang Mai, but I don't consider myself an expert on any of them, really.

Yes, I'd say there's mass of massive, critical gay people here! Getting a job that deserves your credentials and experience, however, will depend on whether CMU, Payap, or the Rajabat have openings, which may not be often or many.

The trouble with these quick trips that pauleddy and others have mentioned, is that you can overlook a massive number of gay people, jobs, restaurants, swim places, etc. My first taste of the Pacific ocean was at a 'beach' filled with rip-rap (giant boulders, not riff-raff ) and it scared me away for two years. Little did I realize the beaches one kilometer north or south were idyllic (or, at least very swimable). Chiang Mai has thousands of gays, a handful of gay/rainbow flag restaurants, lots of commercial sex, lots of places to meet strangers, and a tolerant ambiance, without the hectic city life of Bangkok, KL, or Mexico City.

[peekint]

I'm in love with Chiang Mai, though I moved here already in a relationship (which was established in Bangkok). For a single guy, I don't know that this is such a great place to meet Gay friends (Thai or Farang), unless you are in some way connected to the University.

Hi. I am curious by what you said in your recent post. I am considering relocating to Chiang Mai after a twelve-year stint in the Middle East. I don't wish to settle in Bangkok. I"ve heard there's a "critical mass" of gay people in Chiang Mai. How difficult is it to get full-time work at the univeristy? I have an MA in TESL, a CELTA and more than 15 years experience teaching English. I'll be traveling to Chiang Mai at the end of January to take a look. The last time I was there was many years ago while I was living in Malaysia. I should be grateful for any advice you may give me. Thank you.

I suspect Chiang Mai can be guaranteed to be better than just about anywhere in the middle east (except perhaps tel-aviv, if you ignore the bomb/terrorist/security thing)!

I'll defer to PB's comments regarding job hunting. I'm a businessman and don't have any experience with job-hunting here. I suspect if you have a nice nest-egg from your stint in the ME, you can find plenty of ways to "stay" for a year or two and try it out.

I lived in Hong Kong for 10 years, leaving with the handover in '97 (HK had become a depressing place, and was beginning to get way too expensive for the value). I've been in Chiang Mai 7+ years. My husband and I moved here after three years in Bangkok for several reasons. The biggest motivation was being fed up with the pollution and traffic in Bangkok. The choice of where to move was inspired by the proximity of my husbands' family (about 2-1/2 hours North of the City), and the good fit with his business (he exports Thai handicrafts, the vast majority of which originate here).

After coming here, we found that the integration of Gay folks here was much better than in BKK. Our relationship just IS - with family, friends, my husband's vendors, the government folks, etc., etc. etc. Wherever I live, I tend to mix with local folks rather than expats, so as a mixed couple we failed to connect to a social network with westerners in it until recently (my bad). It appears to me that there is quite a welcoming community here, though it appears to have been historically shy of identifying itself as Gay. I blame that mostly on generational issues, but I'm sure there are other factors, like country of origin, etc. My husband and I are in the process of trying to work with others in Chiang Mai to put together a local branch of the LYC ( http://www.longyangclub.org/ ). There seem to be quite a few like-minded folks to organize with. Perhaps this will be a chance for the community to "coalesce" more around Gay issues and support, or at least around Gay socializing.

Frankly, if you're looking for a bar scene here, there isn't much. There is a nice little pub called SOHO which doesn't do the "off boy" thing, but it's not very successful. Aside from that, the establishments primarily focus on providing escorts.

Chiang Mai is a small city, so I wouldn't expect more than that for entertainment. For a social network, it's seems to be about right for a community this size. FIf the Thai government takes action on its current expostulation regarding the introduction of registering same-sex marriages here, I could see an opportunity for Chiang Mai to really profit from, both in tourism and immigration, and the community to grow.

I guess it comes down to what you're looking for. If you're looking for a hot entertainment scene, this ain't it. If you're looking for a nice social network, you might find it. If you're looking for a great place to fall in love, settle down, and live your life in peace and happiness, you've found it.