Do You Hear The Word Farang Used By Thais In A Derogatory Way?

[redewenur]

It's all about intent. If someone wants to be derogatory, the word they use makes no difference. As a racial group, us caucasoids are hardly as pure as the driven snow and often invite criticism and derision. On the other hand, despite that fact, many Thais seem to view us through rose tinted glasses. Maybe the remainder are simply realistic. People are people the world over.

For me, the problem - if you could call it that - lies with myself, but has nothing to do with "low self esteem" mentioned in an earlier post. On the contrary, I'm an odd character in that I take great pride in my nationality and prefer to be tagged as English, or British. I let my friends and acquaintances here know that.

My vote is "somtimes".

P.S. What may be construed as distasteful is the fact that the word "farang" refers to a racial group, and may therefore touch the racism nerve.

Edited December 2, 2007 by redewenur

[camerata]

Any bona fide Old Hands reading this will probably remember that the word farang has been discussed numerous times in the Bangkok Post, first by columnist M.R. Ayu Mongkol, then by Marvin Brown (head of the AUA language program) and at least once by Roger Crutchley. None of them found it offensive. Marvin also wrote a long letter to PostBag about Thais calling out "You! You!" in the street, which used to drive farang up the wall. But I haven't heard a "You! You!" in Bangkok for over 10 years now.

[Jingthing]

Please don't muddle the issue by labelling temporary visitors as immigrants.

If that is what you read into what I said, sorry, not what I meant. I am on a retirement visa. I would like to feel like I have moved here for life. But I can't feel that. I am on a one year extension and that is all I can ever get, no path towards anything more permanent. Those farangs who are perm residents and citizens are clearly a small minority of us.

There are countries I could have retired to and emigrated to permanently. Thailand isn't one of them where it is even possible to do that, except in cases of people who came here earlier in their lives and established permanent residences. Like it or not, the visa policies do have real life implications.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[qualtrough]

but you cannot redefine a word to make it fit your argument.

It is clearly yourself that has redefined the word in order to justify your feelings that Thailand is your home.

I proved you unequivocally wrong with your definition in the context of Thailand as a country already in this thread.

What you want or what you feel does not necessarily make it so!

You are not a permanent resident or citizen of Thailand therefore Thailand is not your home by definition, by law nor in the eyes of the Thai people!

You just don't get it. Here is a list of different definitions for home found on the Web. I have bolded the ones that directly apply to my calling Thailand my home. You are the one who doesn't understand the word, not me. You have an agenda, you are angry that Thailand makes it difficult for you and other farangs to live here. Fine. Your problem in no way affects the fact that Thailand is home for me and for a large number of farangs. Your issue has nothing whatsover to do with the definition of home as it is used by probably 99% of native speakers.

Definitions of home on the Web:

* where you live at a particular time; "deliver the package to my home"; "he doesn't have a home to go to"; "your place or mine?"

* dwelling: housing that someone is living in; "he built a modest dwelling near the pond"; "they raise money to provide homes for the homeless"

* the country or state or city where you live; "Canadian tariffs enabled United States lumber companies to raise prices at home"; "his home is New Jersey"

* an environment offering affection and security; "home is where the heart is"; "he grew up in a good Christian home"; "there's no place like home"

* an institution where people are cared for; "a home for the elderly"

* base: the place where you are stationed and from which missions start and end

* home(a): used of your own ground; "a home game"

* at or to or in the direction of one's home or family; "He stays home on weekends"; "after the game the children brought friends home for supper"; "I'll be home tomorrow"; "came riding home in style"; "I hope you will come home for Christmas"; "I'll take her home"; "don't forget to write home"

* family: a social unit living together; "he moved his family to Virginia"; "It was a good Christian household"; "I waited until the whole house was asleep"; "the teacher asked how many people made up his home"

* home plate: (baseball) base consisting of a rubber slab where the batter stands; it must be touched by a base runner in order to score; "he ruled that the runner failed to touch home"

* provide with, or send to, a home

* on or to the point aimed at; "the arrow struck home"

* relating to or being where one lives or where one's roots are; "my home town"

* home(a): inside the country; "the British Home Office has broader responsibilities than the United States Department of the Interior"; "the nation's internal politics"

* place where something began and flourished; "the United States is the home of basketball"

* return home accurately from a long distance; "homing pigeons"

* to the fullest extent; to the heart; "drove the nail home"; "drove his point home"; "his comments hit home"

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

P.S. You do not understand the meaning of the word 'unequivocally ' either.

Edited December 2, 2007 by qualtrough

[Jingthing]

This is all semantics splitting. For most of us farang expats, all we can say is that Thailand is where I currently live in my primary residence, or home, if you like. People who have a more perm status can indeed say more.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[asiaworld]

Hilarious..the bunch of farangs bashing each other, spending their days here, typing thousands of posts trying to prove their proficiency in thai & their belonging to Thailand .. Ever guessed why ?!?

Would you ever do this if you were actually accepted here & had the way to EVER actually BECOME THAIS .. Trying to convince, that your kids will feel better here, no matter what they are called by majority ...

Instead of posting here , why don't you open your passports .. read carefully what it says in MOST cases (except camerata, who worked hard for it & meemiathai , who's NOT even live in Thailand )............

NON-IMMIGRANT allowed to stay until.... has to live the kingdom by the date ............

Go out ask thais immigration, police, polititians where THEY think your home is !!

i rest my case

[qualtrough]

I'm saying in most cases it not used as a negative word and yes I do pick up on it's use negatively when it's WITH derogatory classifiers and sometimes inflection of voice.

That's a bit of a wriggle is isn't it - As a fluent Thai speaker you will absolutely aware that the classifier gives meaning to the word and that inflection of voice is used to give sense.

So for example if a Thai addresses or discusses a westerner with the term 'Farang + (Classifier for person)' then we might argue that this use is neutral (or at least any offence relates to the generalization of all westerners being the same)

However if, as I have often heard, a Thai addresses or discusses a westerner with the term 'Farang + (Classifier for an animal or an object)' then there is no doubt that the sense of the term Farang is derogatory - extremely so.

If you do not believe me try addressing a Thai with the term 'Thai + (Classifier for an animal or an object)' and see what reaction you get.

The same applies, though with less striking impact, with the use of inflection in the voice.

The word by itself is NOT derogative... If a Thai person were to use Farang in a negative way it would go like this.... "hey.... that asshol_e farang guy was yelling at me just because I can't understand english very well" Notice the word asshol_e was used in conjunction with Farang. If you hear someone attach Farang with a bad term such as dirty, cheap, bastard etc then I would say it's bad otherwise, Farang is just another word in the Thai vocabulary.

I've given you an example of where a classifier changes the meaning and sense of the word - As a Fluent Thai Speaker you would be aware of that and hence your choice of context by sentence, rather than by Classifier is curious.

Guesthouse, I don't understand your argument with this person. I don't know their name as you failed to provide attribution, but it seems clear that while the author states that the word itself is neutral, he admits that it is possible to use it negatively, such as by using it with a rude classifier such as มัน (mun), normally used for animals and objects. I truthfully don't understand what you are getting at here. Are you saying that the word farang itself is rude, or are you against the word because it can be combined with other words or said in such a way as to convey insult? It seems to me that your issue has more to do with Thai behavior and perceptions of what is and isn't appropriate than it does with the word itself. After all, any word used to describe another, whether it be Westerner, foreigner, caucasian, guest, etc. can be used with rude classifiers or adjectives to transform it into an insult. Can you please state your argument against the word farang? I am asking sincerely, since I am not sure what it is about the word that you object to.

Edited December 2, 2007 by qualtrough

[Chloe82]

I cannot believe people are actually bothering to discuss this stupid subject, who cares about one stupid farang's paranoid obsession with the way Thais use a word.

I agree, i shall not fuel his obsession any further.

[qualtrough]

My internet crashed this morning so I was unable to post the other point that Qualtrough failed to address

Does the crash explain why you have so far failed to address any of the other points that I raised? It is hardly fair to call me out because I inadvertently missed responding to one of your many points, while you fail to address any of those that I raised. This is the second time I have mentioned that, so I must conclude that it is intentional.

We did not tell our Thai staff to do anything, nor I would add did we tell our expatriate staff to do anything - what we did was examine each others behavior and language in terms of its impact on others then ask our staff to discuss feelings and perceptions in order that we can all of us treat each other with mutual respect.[/

I find it interesting that whenever we have discussed language and behaviour with Thais they respond very positively to addressing behaviour and language through a framework of Mutual Respect.

In the case I have given our Thai staff were very responsive to other people's feelings when given the opportunity to examine their own behaviour. I regard this as a triumph of Thai sensibilities with respect to 'Relationships' over the nationalistic and inward education most Thais are subjected to.

I have of course given an example of a Thai individual who railed against the idea that he needs to accommodate the foreigners he has chosen to work with. As an individual his bigotry was no different that the bigotry that can be found elsewhere in the world.

What I do find strange is the heated reaction of many foreigners to this issue - far more reactive than Thais, who as I have said responded very well to the idea of considering the feelings of others.

The only clear argument I've come across in this thread by those defending the term Farang is the idea that in doing so they may be defending the Thai language against the march of what they regard as Political Correctness.

And that gets back to mutual respect and consideration for the feelings of others.

It is rich that you write about 'mutual respect and consideration for the feelings of others', yet characterize my reasoned response to your initial post as a rant. It would appear that anyone not agreeing with you is not worthy of any ''mutual respect and consideration for the feelings of others'.

I find the following risible in light of what you wrote earlier:

I find it interesting that whenever we have discussed language and behaviour with Thais they respond very positively to addressing behaviour and language through a framework of Mutual Respect.

Do you remember how you answered my question of why he/she should give a rat's ass if they [Farangs and Euro--Thais] objected to your instructing him/her on the use of the word? Here is your response to that:

Because he takes the company pay cheque and enjoys the benefits of working for a multinational company that offers him great pay, educational and promotion possibilities - all in line with the companies equal opportunities 'respect and diversity' polices.

The 'Framework of Mutual Respect' sounds pretty one sided to me. By your own admission it appears that your employees are not so much engaging in a 'Framework of Mutual Respect' so much as wisely knowing which side their bread is buttered on when it comes to any dispute with their expat manager. When one side holds all the cards it is quite easy to get agreement on any number of topics. In any case, while you may have been able to cow your employees into accepting your definition of farang, you hold no such power over the mass of Thai people, who will laugh at your efforts, along with most farangs who know anything about Thailand.

[qualtrough]

but you cannot redefine a word to make it fit your argument.

It is clearly yourself that has redefined the word in order to justify your feelings that Thailand is your home.

I proved you unequivocally wrong with your definition in the context of Thailand as a country already in this thread.

What you want or what you feel does not necessarily make it so!

You are not a permanent resident or citizen of Thailand therefore Thailand is not your home by definition, by law nor in the eyes of the Thai people!

You just don't get it. Here is a list of different definitions for home found on the Web. I have bolded the ones that directly apply to my calling Thailand my home. You are the one who doesn't understand the word, not me. You have an agenda, you are angry that Thailand makes it difficult for you and other farangs to live here. Fine. Your problem in no way affects the fact that Thailand is home for me and for a large number of farangs. Your issue has nothing whatsover to do with the definition of home as it is used by probably 99% of native speakers.

Definitions of home on the Web:

* where you live at a particular time; "deliver the package to my home"; "he doesn't have a home to go to"; "your place or mine?"

* dwelling: housing that someone is living in; "he built a modest dwelling near the pond"; "they raise money to provide homes for the homeless"

* the country or state or city where you live; "Canadian tariffs enabled United States lumber companies to raise prices at home"; "his home is New Jersey"

* an environment offering affection and security; "home is where the heart is"; "he grew up in a good Christian home"; "there's no place like home"

* an institution where people are cared for; "a home for the elderly"

* base: the place where you are stationed and from which missions start and end

* home(a): used of your own ground; "a home game"

* at or to or in the direction of one's home or family; "He stays home on weekends"; "after the game the children brought friends home for supper"; "I'll be home tomorrow"; "came riding home in style"; "I hope you will come home for Christmas"; "I'll take her home"; "don't forget to write home"

* family: a social unit living together; "he moved his family to Virginia"; "It was a good Christian household"; "I waited until the whole house was asleep"; "the teacher asked how many people made up his home"

* home plate: (baseball) base consisting of a rubber slab where the batter stands; it must be touched by a base runner in order to score; "he ruled that the runner failed to touch home"

* provide with, or send to, a home

* on or to the point aimed at; "the arrow struck home"

* relating to or being where one lives or where one's roots are; "my home town"

* home(a): inside the country; "the British Home Office has broader responsibilities than the United States Department of the Interior"; "the nation's internal politics"

* place where something began and flourished; "the United States is the home of basketball"

* return home accurately from a long distance; "homing pigeons"

* to the fullest extent; to the heart; "drove the nail home"; "drove his point home"; "his comments hit home"

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

P.S. You do not understand the meaning of the word 'unequivocally ' either.

I have already given you the correct dictionary definition of home in the context we are discussing but defining the word indeed is merely semantics as another poster pointed out.

Bottom line is that in the eyes of the law, in the eyes of the Thai people and let's be honest that's what really matters here, you are not at home in Thailand and your 'home country' most definitely is elsewhere.

No you haven't. You think you have, but you clearly haven't. You are redefining the word to fit your particular purpose. To say this is 'merely semantics' is a cop out. Semantics is the study of meaning in language, which is what this entire argument is about. As far as I can see you do not understand the words home, unequivocally, and now semantics. I won't debate this with you any more since your conception of what words mean is so at odds with generally accepted understanding as to render debate fruitless.

[Kyosuken]

What dictionary definitions are, do not reflect reality nowadays, saying it's my "home" is highly subjective, in a term of "property" (even for a country), even if "by current definition of law" farang don't really own something in this country... .

I will give some simple examples like "Queer" or "Gay", which by definitions never meant "Homosexuals" but "Strange" and "Feeling Happy"... doh, one can be deceived by the almighty "speak the truth" dictionary huh ?

What i mean by that : as "home" is something highly subjective, it is driven for the feeling you have, some people will always say that their "true" home is the place they were born, some people will just refer as "home" the place they "feel" at home, which is definitely different of what "laws" tells.

It's well known, and not only in Thailand, whatever people may say (never forget the whole "face" thing that is true to almost Asian countries), an ex-pat will "never" belong to the "host" country. You "may" feel you are welcome, people all smile blah blah, it doesn't change the reality as a whole, exceptions are here to give credit to the general rule..

On the "farang" subject, the word is neutral, it's like saying "white people", yes indeed but the point is not if it's neutral or not, because you can pretty much give any meaning to a word given enough time, how people say it etc etc.... (see how Queer means "homosexual" nowadays and can be given a derogatory meaning as well as a "proud self esteem" meaning by some others).

So yup even if it's neutral, farang ca be used as a racist meaning, alone (depending on context) or applied with some other words, like farang keenok or farang lao (nobody speaks about this later but even if Thai will say "oh you can speak isann too !, geng mark mark !!, it doesn't mean that behind they don't think "bleahhh" ).

But the thing is that, you won't find Thai say these words openly most of the time, it's more likely that when you "hear" them speaking of farang, it's much more the "queer" (not homosexual mind you ) animal that a farang represents, the stereotypical things on say when he/she meets a foreigner : oh i hear that farang have big s*x, oh i hear farang is dirty, oh blah blah blah farang, farang, farang. Which gets old pretty fast !

If they don't like something they will keep it for them, unless they lost face and went hysterical (farang being insulted by his girlfriend over an argument, or tourists fighting with a tuk tuk driver), there you may really find the insults they kept in them for so long.

I think that honestly the whole majority of "farang" one may hear here and there has much more to do with the ambient laziness in the everyday vocabulary than any really ill fated meaning, true that some people may use the word farang in a meaning not so pleasing, but because the way things work here (ie read "Face") it has more to do with laziness than something else. It's like when they say "gin"/"kin" for drink, or when they omit letters when they speak "pratoo" (door) they often say "patoo", roy khratrong they will say loy katong (when the r from roy should be rolled, and not a plain "L", and they omit the other "r") etc etc

Edited December 2, 2007 by Kyosuken

[EastSaxCol]

I wonder if 'farang' were spoken with a rising tone rather than the low tone whether it'd sound less offensive to some ?

But the question that I've posed time and time again to khon Thai is why so with khon Jeen also, yet for Yipoon and Farang no such polite particle ? I've often heard khon Farang mentioned on the Thai news for instance, as I have very polite khon Thai (not necessarily highly educated or the anything). So although habitual ignorance can be claimed by some, not so for the majority.

If I really pick up the word used in what I feel to be a derogatory sense, I sometimes retort:

"Mai chai farang, khrap. Phom phen ma-keu-a-tayt." (tomato)

Which because it invariably raises at least smile, and often laughter, makes me feel a bit less peeved also.

[meemiathai]

My internet crashed this morning so I was unable to post the other point that Qualtrough failed to address

Does the crash explain why you have so far failed to address any of the other points that I raised? It is hardly fair to call me out because I inadvertently missed responding to one of your many points, while you fail to address any of those that I raised. This is the second time I have mentioned that, so I must conclude that it is intentional.

We did not tell our Thai staff to do anything, nor I would add did we tell our expatriate staff to do anything - what we did was examine each others behavior and language in terms of its impact on others then ask our staff to discuss feelings and perceptions in order that we can all of us treat each other with mutual respect.[/

I find it interesting that whenever we have discussed language and behaviour with Thais they respond very positively to addressing behaviour and language through a framework of Mutual Respect.

In the case I have given our Thai staff were very responsive to other people's feelings when given the opportunity to examine their own behaviour. I regard this as a triumph of Thai sensibilities with respect to 'Relationships' over the nationalistic and inward education most Thais are subjected to.

I have of course given an example of a Thai individual who railed against the idea that he needs to accommodate the foreigners he has chosen to work with. As an individual his bigotry was no different that the bigotry that can be found elsewhere in the world.

What I do find strange is the heated reaction of many foreigners to this issue - far more reactive than Thais, who as I have said responded very well to the idea of considering the feelings of others.

The only clear argument I've come across in this thread by those defending the term Farang is the idea that in doing so they may be defending the Thai language against the march of what they regard as Political Correctness.

And that gets back to mutual respect and consideration for the feelings of others.

It is rich that you write about 'mutual respect and consideration for the feelings of others', yet characterize my reasoned response to your initial post as a rant. It would appear that anyone not agreeing with you is not worthy of any ''mutual respect and consideration for the feelings of others'.

I find the following risible in light of what you wrote earlier:

I find it interesting that whenever we have discussed language and behaviour with Thais they respond very positively to addressing behaviour and language through a framework of Mutual Respect.

Do you remember how you answered my question of why he/she should give a rat's ass if they [Farangs and Euro--Thais] objected to your instructing him/her on the use of the word? Here is your response to that:

Because he takes the company pay cheque and enjoys the benefits of working for a multinational company that offers him great pay, educational and promotion possibilities - all in line with the companies equal opportunities 'respect and diversity' polices.

The 'Framework of Mutual Respect' sounds pretty one sided to me. By your own admission it appears that your employees are not so much engaging in a 'Framework of Mutual Respect' so much as wisely knowing which side their bread is buttered on when it comes to any dispute with their expat manager. When one side holds all the cards it is quite easy to get agreement on any number of topics. In any case, while you may have been able to cow your employees into accepting your definition of farang, you hold no such power over the mass of Thai people, who will laugh at your efforts, along with most farangs who know anything about Thailand.

I just have to say you are making great posts.

There really is nothing more I can say except that there really are some crazy people in this world. I really fail to see how things as obvious as these can be so wrongly understood. I am speechless.

[EastSaxCol]

The 'Framework of Mutual Respect' sounds pretty one sided to me. By your own admission it appears that your employees are not so much engaging in a 'Framework of Mutual Respect' so much as wisely knowing which side their bread is buttered on when it comes to any dispute with their expat manager. When one side holds all the cards it is quite easy to get agreement on any number of topics. In any case, while you may have been able to cow your employees into accepting your definition of farang, you hold no such power over the mass of Thai people, who will laugh at your efforts, along with most farangs who know anything about Thailand.

Only problem is , there's no plurals in Thai.

[Jingthing]

I cannot believe people are actually bothering to discuss this stupid subject, who cares about one stupid farang's paranoid obsession with the way Thais use a word.

I agree, i shall not fuel his obsession any further.

Darling, I have been a facilitator here, providing the initial structure. Look at my post history and you will see my interests are ALL OVER THE PLACE.

If anyone here is obsessed with this topic, I would say it would have to be qualtrough, not me.

BTW, for the most part we don't belong here and both the Thai people and Thai immigration are indeed telling us this constantly. Anyone who believes differently is perhaps delusional? Except for a small minority of us, this is NOT a country you emigrate to and become a national of your new country, like you might to Australia or Canada. We (for the most part) do NOT become Thai; at best we are tolerated until our next visa extension. I am not saying this is good or bad, it is just THE WAY IT IS. BTW, the Thais have EVERY RIGHT to treat us this way, it is their country, their land, and truly if we cannot ACCEPT the way it is, there are travel agents in every town.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[qualtrough]

The 'Framework of Mutual Respect' sounds pretty one sided to me. By your own admission it appears that your employees are not so much engaging in a 'Framework of Mutual Respect' so much as wisely knowing which side their bread is buttered on when it comes to any dispute with their expat manager. When one side holds all the cards it is quite easy to get agreement on any number of topics. In any case, while you may have been able to cow your employees into accepting your definition of farang, you hold no such power over the mass of Thai people, who will laugh at your efforts, along with most farangs who know anything about Thailand.

Only problem is , there's no plurals in Thai.

Is that so? No way to say, for example, three dogs? Here is a short lesson for you. Thais don't use 's' to indicate plurals, they use classifiers. Three dogs in Thai would be written หมาสามตัว (Ma Sam Tua), with Ma being dog, Sam being 3, and Tua being the classifier for animals, among other things. In my post above, I was not writing in Thai, I was writing in English. Whether or not the plural of 'farang' in English is still farang, like deer and deer, or whether an 's' should be added to make it plural is subject to debate and there is no 'rule' to say one is right and one is wrong. Nice try though!

Edited December 2, 2007 by qualtrough

[hullmonkey1]

Personally, I do not like the feeling of walking down a strange street and hearning whispers of FARANG FARANG. The intent is not rudeness but the feeling is.

If you're Kosovan, Polish, Albanian, Hungarian etc... etc... and you're walking down any street in England in 2007 and hearing 'whispers' of '**cking immigrants', the intent is almost certainly rudeness & is absolutley designed to induce a feeling of unease among the 'aliens'..

native mindset = "this is my country, who the *ell do they think they are..."

Sorry, but thats the truth.

westerners in Thailand will experience the same..

as will brits in oz, yanks in india, ruskys in mexico, munchkins in timbuktoo etc.. etc.. JUST LEARN TO LIVE WITH IT..! (don't be so bloody sensitive. remember : sticks & stones may break my bones but...........)

Can’t see where you get the notion that the use of the word Farang is designed to induce a feeling of unease. As another poster has explained, it has come from the meaning of Frenchman. Now that really pisses me off be called a Frenchman

I work in India and every white guy here is referred to as angraise admi (spelling ?) which translates as Englishman. I suppose that would really piss off most ozzies

In Hongkong all white folk are called guillo (spellin?) which translates to something like ghost-man. Not something that should piss anyone off IMO. But I worked with a guy there who lost it one night after being called a guillo once too many times, and started shouting CHINKY CHINKY CHINKY to the oblivious street vender

All of of the above are just terms and without any further adjective eg: French <deleted>, English scum, cannot be classed as being designed to induce a feeling of unease.

So I suppose that I agree with you in so far as being call a fukcing Farang would disturb me but plain old farang means nothing at all to me.

Edited December 2, 2007 by hullmonkey1

[Jingthing]

As another poster has explained, it has come from the meaning of Frenchman.

This is well short of a FACT, There are various theories as to the origin, as far as I know, nothing DEFINITIVE.

[macleod101]

does it really matter?, i can speak for the English that as a nation we moan about foreigners all the time

and look at how ferang behave when they come to thailand!!

its only geralising

[Jingthing]

does it really matter?

Compared to global warming and nuclear weapons in Iran? No.

[meemiathai]

The 'Framework of Mutual Respect' sounds pretty one sided to me. By your own admission it appears that your employees are not so much engaging in a 'Framework of Mutual Respect' so much as wisely knowing which side their bread is buttered on when it comes to any dispute with their expat manager. When one side holds all the cards it is quite easy to get agreement on any number of topics. In any case, while you may have been able to cow your employees into accepting your definition of farang, you hold no such power over the mass of Thai people, who will laugh at your efforts, along with most farangs who know anything about Thailand.

Only problem is , there's no plurals in Thai.

Is that so? No way to say, for example, three dogs? Here is a short lesson for you. Thais don't use 's' to indicate plurals, they use classifiers. Three dogs in Thai would be written หมาสามตัว (Ma Sam Tua), with Ma being dog, Sam being 3, and Tua being the classifier for animals, among other things. In my post above, I was not writing in Thai, I was writing in English. Whether or not the plural of 'farang' in English is still farang, like deer and deer, or whether an 's' should be added to make it plural is subject to debate and there is no 'rule' to say one is right and one is wrong. Nice try though!

I think Mr Happy is quite right about the no plurals in thai but I think he is actually saying that to emphazise how much he is on your side agreeing with your post. Just a guess though.

[Jingthing]

Farang versus Gringo.

Compare and contrast.

100 words maximum.

Spelling counts in your grade!

[qualtrough]

I just have to say you are making great posts.

There really is nothing more I can say except that there really are some crazy people in this world. I really fail to see how things as obvious as these can be so wrongly understood. I am speechless.

Thanks meemiathai. It is indeed frustrating to see such ignorance on display here. I can't imagine telling Arabs what their words mean and how they should be used, or Germans, or French, and so on, so I am just amazed at the brass of people here who have the barest grasp of the language, if that, and yet know all about farang and what it means, and what Thais should do about it. The <deleted> gall is mind boggling! In addition to that we have people redefining the word 'home' into meaninglessness, someone telling me that there are no plurals in Thai, people changing their position from one post to the next, and then the obligatory posters with incoherent posts!

It is really a waste of our time to argue with these people further. The consolation is that they will make absolutely no progress with any efforts to get Thais to stop using the word farang to identify those of European heritage. Absolutely no progress. And good for the Thais for telling them where they can go with their ideas! Thais are not perfect by any means, but if I had to choose to live among them or some of the extremely bitter losers on this forum I will choose the former. Oops! Already did!

[meemiathai]

Personally, I do not like the feeling of walking down a strange street and hearning whispers of FARANG FARANG. The intent is not rudeness but the feeling is.

If you're Kosovan, Polish, Albanian, Hungarian etc... etc... and you're walking down any street in England in 2007 and hearing 'whispers' of '**cking immigrants', the intent is almost certainly rudeness & is absolutley designed to induce a feeling of unease among the 'aliens'..

native mindset = "this is my country, who the *ell do they think they are..."

Sorry, but thats the truth.

westerners in Thailand will experience the same..

as will brits in oz, yanks in india, ruskys in mexico, munchkins in timbuktoo etc.. etc.. JUST LEARN TO LIVE WITH IT..! (don't be so bloody sensitive. remember : sticks & stones may break my bones but...........)

Can’t see where you get the notion that the use of the word Farang is designed to induce a feeling of unease. As another poster has explained, it has come from the meaning of Frenchman. Now that really pisses me off be called a Frenchman

I work in India and every white guy here is referred to as angraise admi (spelling ?) which translates as Englishman. I suppose that would really piss off most ozzies

In Hongkong all white folk are called guillo (spellin?) which translates to something like ghost-man. Not something that should piss anyone off IMO. But I worked with a guy there who lost it one night after being called a guillo once too many times, and started shouting CHINKY CHINKY CHINKY to the oblivious street vender

All of of the above are just terms and without any further adjective eg: French <deleted>, English scum, cannot be classed as being designed to induce a feeling of unease.

So I suppose that I agree with you in so far as being call a fukcing Farang would disturb me but plain old farang means nothing at all to me.

Wow that would be more than a billion people to educate! Are than any westerners moaning the same in Indian Websites?

[qualtrough]

The 'Framework of Mutual Respect' sounds pretty one sided to me. By your own admission it appears that your employees are not so much engaging in a 'Framework of Mutual Respect' so much as wisely knowing which side their bread is buttered on when it comes to any dispute with their expat manager. When one side holds all the cards it is quite easy to get agreement on any number of topics. In any case, while you may have been able to cow your employees into accepting your definition of farang, you hold no such power over the mass of Thai people, who will laugh at your efforts, along with most farangs who know anything about Thailand.

Only problem is , there's no plurals in Thai.

Is that so? No way to say, for example, three dogs? Here is a short lesson for you. Thais don't use 's' to indicate plurals, they use classifiers. Three dogs in Thai would be written หมาสามตัว (Ma Sam Tua), with Ma being dog, Sam being 3, and Tua being the classifier for animals, among other things. In my post above, I was not writing in Thai, I was writing in English. Whether or not the plural of 'farang' in English is still farang, like deer and deer, or whether an 's' should be added to make it plural is subject to debate and there is no 'rule' to say one is right and one is wrong. Nice try though!

I think Mr Happy is quite right about the no plurals in thai but I think he is actually saying that to emphazise how much he is on your side agreeing with your post. Just a guess though.

I disagree with you saying there are no plurals. If you mean that nouns themselves have no plural forms you are correct. But since Thai uses classifiers along with a number or other indicator of quantity to indicate plural there is indeed a way to indicate plurals. What he was referring to was my use of 's' to indicate more than one farang. I assume that is why he bolded the word. If that is the case it is silly because I was writing in English, not Thai. I don't think he was agreeing with me. Perhaps he will let us know!

[EastSaxCol]

I think Mr Happy is quite right about the no plurals in thai

Well, yes.

... but I think he is actually saying that to emphazise how much he is on your side agreeing with your post. Just a guess though.

Well, sort of.

[meemiathai]

I just have to say you are making great posts.

There really is nothing more I can say except that there really are some crazy people in this world. I really fail to see how things as obvious as these can be so wrongly understood. I am speechless.

Thanks meemiathai. It is indeed frustrating to see such ignorance on display here. I can't imagine telling Arabs what their words mean and how they should be used, or Germans, or French, and so on, so I am just amazed at the brass of people here who have the barest grasp of the language, if that, and yet know all about farang and what it means, and what Thais should do about it. The <deleted> gall is mind boggling! In addition to that we have people redefining the word 'home' into meaninglessness, someone telling me that there are no plurals in Thai, people changing their position from one post to the next, and then the obligatory posters with incoherent posts!

It is really a waste of our time to argue with these people further. The consolation is that they will make absolutely no progress with any efforts to get Thais to stop using the word farang to identify those of European heritage. Absolutely no progress. And good for the Thais for telling them where they can go with their ideas! Thais are not perfect by any means, but if I had to choose to live among them or some of the extremely bitter losers on this forum I will choose the former. Oops! Already did!

Yes I am getting a bit tired. It was not even about showing how much I understood about thailand. It is just that it is so obvious and easy to understand that I cannot stand seeing people misunderstanding it. It is just a desire in me for people in this world to be able to call a spade a spade. Anyway nice for me to see the reality of human nature.

Good day.

[meemiathai]

If you mean that nouns themselves have no plural forms you are correct.

Exactly what he and I meant.

[EastSaxCol]

ls. What he was referring to was my use of 's' to indicate more than one farang. I assume that is why he bolded the word. If that is the case it is silly because I was writing in English, not Thai. I don't think he was agreeing with me. Perhaps he will let us know!

Well, it was a light-heatrted hint at the irony of, on the one hand saying that you know so much about Thai society, etc. And then using a plural where non exists.

But let's not get silly about this and let the waters flow under the bridge here.

[meemiathai]

ls. What he was referring to was my use of 's' to indicate more than one farang. I assume that is why he bolded the word. If that is the case it is silly because I was writing in English, not Thai. I don't think he was agreeing with me. Perhaps he will let us know!

Well, it was a light-heatrted hint at the irony of, on the one hand saying that you know so much about Thai society, etc. And then using a plural where non exists.

But let's not get silly about this and let the waters flow under the bridge here.

Yes that was how I understood it but did not know how to explain.