Sun - Power Please.

[SamuiBond]

If I know that product is crappy and I still sell it to third world with good heart it doesn't make it good. I know it could be better. In Thailand any developer knows that sun power is a killer application and that sales could push just because of it. Yet you have developers that don't give a flying <deleted> about adding solar power solutions to their developments.

This is where people can once again vote with their opinion and money. Not to accept/invest/buy new developments that don't recycle sun energy where it's plentiful. Even in "sunny" England they calculate 10 years as a maximum return for the solar power investment. Here it would be more likely 3 – 4 years to get investment back and a almost any Villa could be self sufficient after that:

What is your opinion on the case?

[Mosha]

I am surprised it is not more widely used. However the only time I have noticed its use, is either at houses in the middle of nowwhere, and mains haven't being available. The other was used by a Burmese family who also hadn't mains electricity.

[londonthai]

as electricity costs will rise for the next years, the solar alternative will be more and more popolar. The photo cells, batteries and the rest of the installation are very expensive and still able to run only a very few appliances at the same time.

certainly, the sun water heaters should be more popularised - using them would lower as well house temperature, if installed on the roof or wall

[naka]

While solar hot water systems are very popular, in fact almost universal in many countries e.g. Australia

there is little demand for hot water in Thai owned houses.

However, Solar as a source of electricity is extremely expensive compared to conventional sources.

Naka.

[palm]

This is where people can once again vote with their opinion and money. Not to accept/invest/buy new developments that don't recycle sun energy where it's plentiful. Even in "sunny" England they calculate 10 years as a maximum return for the solar power investment. Here it would be more likely 3 – 4 years to get investment back and a almost any Villa could be self sufficient after that:

What is your opinion on the case?

3 - 4 years??? Who told you this? What is your source?

The systems I've looked at here have a ROI of at least 15 years, not taking into account the replacement of batteries or panels.

If you know of some magical solar system that provides a ROI in 3 to 4 years, please let us know where we can get it.

[peter991]

In Australia almost every new house I see has a solar hot water system. With Thailand's (relatively) expensive electricity, I was very surprised not to see a single solar hot water system. Granted, you only pay a few thousand baht for an instantaneous hot water shower - and many Thais still only have cold water showers - but I would have thought in Thailand's climate, solar hot water would have caught on - at least for large buildings such as hotels.

Given Thailand's cheap labour costs and the falling price of solar panels, hopefully solar hot water will be the next big thing in Thailand.

An Australian company has just completed extensive testing in Thailand of the world’s first one-piece, polymer-based domestic solar hot water system.

Peter

[t.s]

This is where people can once again vote with their opinion and money. Not to accept/invest/buy new developments that don't recycle sun energy where it's plentiful. Even in "sunny" England they calculate 10 years as a maximum return for the solar power investment. Here it would be more likely 3 – 4 years to get investment back and a almost any Villa could be self sufficient after that:

What is your opinion on the case?

3 - 4 years??? Who told you this? What is your source?

The systems I've looked at here have a ROI of at least 15 years, not taking into account the replacement of batteries or panels.

If you know of some magical solar system that provides a ROI in 3 to 4 years, please let us know where we can get it.

this is what i discovered too.

to power a house i built i did the calculations and and discovered the roi would be 15 to 20 years. add that to the fact that i could not even get a quote from most vendors here -- they were all manufacturing for the export market.

[t.s]

as electricity costs will rise for the next years, the solar alternative will be more and more popolar. The photo cells, batteries and the rest of the installation are very expensive and still able to run only a very few appliances at the same time.

certainly, the sun water heaters should be more popularised - using them would lower as well house temperature, if installed on the roof or wall

yes but they are 3 to 5 times the price of similar immersion heaters, many might find that prohibitive.

subsidies are the way to go to bring the cost in line with other options.

what costs 5k in the US costs 25k (usd) in thailand.

Edited December 5, 2007 by t.s

[Naam]

Even in "sunny" England they calculate 10 years as a maximum return for the solar power investment. Here it would be more likely 3 – 4 years to get investment back and a almost any Villa could be self sufficient after that:

What is your opinion on the case?

my [not so] humble opinion is that your economical and technical knowledge needs some brush-up. and that applies to both "investment return" as well as "any villa could be self sufficient"

[ade100]

When I took holidays in Greece almost all the water was heated with solar panels. It was great but there were certain times of day when it could run out and be cold.

Thailand is a developing country. No one would ride a bicycle if they could afford a car. Many Thais cannot afford any type of water heating system. So I suspect the mentality is if you can afford a heating system, why buy one that might not deliver hot water all the time.

[Ricardo]

Many of our Chiang Mai hotels have roofs covered with solar water-heating panels, all cheap & nasty, but therefore with a quicker payback.

Rather than importing fancy foreign-made ones, Thais should make a Thai-quality low-cost one, and export millions to the world, anybody fancy a start-up business ?

[mattias33]

Many of our Chiang Mai hotels have roofs covered with solar water-heating panels, all cheap & nasty, but therefore with a quicker payback.

Rather than importing fancy foreign-made ones, Thais should make a Thai-quality low-cost one, and export millions to the world, anybody fancy a start-up business ?

Exactly!!! And i am sure they will. Many Thais are smart and creative when they get their eys opened for a buisness-idea. We just have to accept the fact that Thailand in general is a bit after Europe in this kind of thinking. It will come here aswell. Just give it time!

The idea of trying to bring foriegn-made equipment here and try to make it a winner is not possible. The suncell panels we have in Europe today make profit due to very high electric-costs and sponsorships from governments etc. Plus the fact that (at least northern Europe) consume alot of hot water, an area where sunpower is very profitable.

Op statement to make "any villa self-sufficient in 3-4 years"???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Sorry dude. That sounds very good and beleive me, if it was true sunpower would be such a megahit around the world that we could close down all powerplants already tomorrow. Dreamsenario witch unfortunately have no base in reality what so ever.

[chrissimone]

Hi all, just my 2 bits. I live in Hawaii, (lots of sun) in a subdivison that doesn't have electric to all lots yet. I bought a lot with a small house on it, I installed a small solar system. 2500 watt true sine wave inverter, 8 golf cart batteries, and 4- 35 watt solar panels. Total cost $5,000 usd. I have propane stove and refer, no dryer, and the system probably saves me 30-40 usd a month. So about 10-12 year pay back. the batteries I just replaced were 5 years old, so will probably need to replace these in 5 years. It is a headache checking water level,and starting generator when batt. run out. I figure right the system costs me a little money. However I like the Idea of using sun power, as fuel prices rise maybe they will become more cost effective.

I am a plumber, so I also install solar hot water systems. These do pay for them selfs over about 4-5 years if you count state and fed rebates, and I have seem systems working after 20 years. For cheap hot water systems I have seem people use black water pipe laid either on the ground or on the roofs. You will only have hot water for about 3 hours after the sun goes down, but they are cheap.

mmmmmmmmmmmmm, I am such a slow typer, a post this long takes me forever to write, so I better go now. JMO, Chris.

[think_too_mut]

I am surprised it is not more widely used. However the only time I have noticed its use, is either at houses in the middle of nowwhere, and mains haven't being available. The other was used by a Burmese family who also hadn't mains electricity.

1kw of electricity produced by a solar installation is 16c.

1kw of electricity produced by a coal fired plant is 3c.

The entire US solar electricity production amounts to mere 0.3% of all supply, including those 30 square km of solar panels in California.

US Energy production sector (the biggest polluter of all) spends on R&D less than pet food manufacturers.

Small wonder then solar energy for electricity generation is not more widely used.

Edited December 5, 2007 by think_too_mut

[rychrde]

Even in "sunny" England they calculate 10 years as a maximum return for the solar power investment. Here it would be more likely 3 – 4 years to get investment back and a almost any Villa could be self sufficient after that:

What is your opinion on the case?

my [not so] humble opinion is that your economical and technical knowledge needs some brush-up. and that applies to both "investment return" as well as "any villa could be self sufficient"

Not everyone here is a physicist

also, there seems some confusion between solar panels for hot water and for electricity - these are two completely different things. For hot water, a black bin liner and a pipe will suffice!

For a good system producing quality AC current it isn't that cheap. But with Thailand's philosophy of self sufficiency it seems an obvious idea to install these for apartment blocks or even one central one per village. When lived in Pattaya saw one of the View talay projects include solar energy, so there's slight progress.

rych

[SamuiBond]

Even in "sunny" England they calculate 10 years as a maximum return for the solar power investment. Here it would be more likely 3 – 4 years to get investment back and a almost any Villa could be self sufficient after that:

What is your opinion on the case?

my [not so] humble opinion is that your economical and technical knowledge needs some brush-up. and that applies to both "investment return" as well as "any villa could be self sufficient"

Not everyone here is a physicist

also, there seems some confusion between solar panels for hot water and for electricity - these are two completely different things. For hot water, a black bin liner and a pipe will suffice!

For a good system producing quality AC current it isn't that cheap. But with Thailand's philosophy of self sufficiency it seems an obvious idea to install these for apartment blocks or even one central one per village. When lived in Pattaya saw one of the View talay projects include solar energy, so there's slight progress.

rych

I based assumption on the BBC doc. report on a family living in England. Family installed solar power system in their house covering not just hot water system but also lights in the household. ROI in this case was calculated to be around 10 years. If you take English labour costs, heavier import taxes and the fact that Thailand likely gets (there should be a website that has these facts - anyone?) 2-3 times the sun power than England, I roughly made calculation that 3-4 years would do the job around here. Most (potential) sun power in the world is generated in some places around Sahara desert.

Heating-A/C is usually the most consuming single power eater if you compare England/Thailand. In my experience your monthly electricity bill raises 2/3' around Samui just by humming aircon for 12 - 14 hours a day (contra if one used just fans). Instead if people would be using fans, latest solar power technology and common sense in their power consuption carbon footprint would be much lesser, single household could be self sufficient and one wouldn't even need to build power lines in to house. (other program I saw)

They are building ecohouses (very latest) in Europe that are completely build without incoming power lines (wireless technology combined with sunpower). Infrastructure in these houses is build so that any extra energy saved during day time can be used night time (including all the ampliances in the house) and some of these future "villages" based on the technology can likely even sell some of their extra power to neigbouring houses/towns.

Okay, sure if you use the latest technology in Villa/building projects you'll likely pay more now for your investment but then again EVEN IF ROI would be 10 years that is a small price to pay what the after effects are that one wouldn't be using sun power to the max when the "infrastructure" shines out there and shouts;

-Pretty hot and free - use me as you wish!

[nidge]

My wifes family have a monthly electricity bill of 100-150 baht. They only use hot water for cooking. I installed an electric shower but they prefer to use cold water as they say they feel cleaner after a cold shower than a hot one.

For a 4 year return the solar system would have to be less than 7000 baht (including maintenance). I bet even the Thais could not make one that cheap!

[SamuiBond]

My wifes family have a monthly electricity bill of 100-150 baht. They only use hot water for cooking. I installed an electric shower but they prefer to use cold water as they say they feel cleaner after a cold shower than a hot one.

For a 4 year return the solar system would have to be less than 7000 baht (including maintenance). I bet even the Thais could not make one that cheap!

...and I have Eskimo friends that...

This is about future building projects done in Thailand by foreigners currently that aren't doing smart enough investments in to the future by denying use of sun...

Sure its nice that people don't use electricity but we have to stick with the facts of life and reality.

[nidge]

Sure its nice that people don't use electricity but we have to stick with the facts of life and reality.

Sorry if my FACTS don't fit with your ideas. This is REALITY for my family. Or do you want a debate with only one point of view?

Perhaps we should all consider using less electricity? Making it cheaper does not mean people will use less, it means they will use more. Do you really need AC in every room of the house? Do you really need AC at all? (examples before you go on about not having an AC in your downstairs toilet).

[SamuiBond]

Sorry if my FACTS don't fit with your ideas. This is REALITY for my family. Or do you want a debate with only one point of view?

Please open a thread were you debate about your family realities. Your opinions have nothing to with THIS THREAD which then again you can read above.

[JetsetBkk]

Between 1 and 3 pm, the water coming out of my shower is at about 34 - 36 C with the heater off. This is because the water pipe feeding it runs along the wall of an open storm drain for about 150m and gets warmed by the sun.

This is great for saving electricity, but no good if you fancy a cold shower at that time of day.

[Naam]

Do you really need AC in every room of the house?

YES!

Do you really need AC at all?

YES!

(before you go on about not having an AC in your downstairs toilet).

all our bathrooms are indirectly airconditioned... whether you like it or not

[Naam]

some additional input:

it was already mentioned that there's often a mix-up of "solar photo-voltaic" to generate electricity and "solar heat" to generate hot water and/or heating.

using solar energy for generating heat is neither a technical nor a big economical problem and the return on investment is acceptable. but only for those who have the financial means to shell out the cash for the initial investment.

using photo-voltaic generation of electricity for heavy consumers such as airconditioners, poolpumps, big fridges/freezers is financial science fiction for most of us mortals as well as a technical nightmare to maintain that kind of setup.

Buffet, Gates, Ambani, all you sons and descendents of Abdul-Aziz al-Saud... i did not mean you!

[astral]

Solar electricity is still not a viable option for a modern house with AC etc.

Solar water heating is, but when I searched in LOS a few years back I could not find any

source of equipment, produced locally.

I regret not experimenting with home made units.

[JetsetBkk]

Solar electricity is still not a viable option for a modern house with AC etc.

Solar water heating is, but when I searched in LOS a few years back I could not find any

source of equipment, produced locally.

I regret not experimenting with home made units.

Just run the mains water pipes carrying water destined for your shower all over your roof.

[jamesc2000]

Solar electricity is still not a viable option for a modern house with AC etc.

Solar water heating is, but when I searched in LOS a few years back I could not find any

source of equipment, produced locally.

I regret not experimenting with home made units.

Just run the mains water pipes carrying water destined for your shower all over your roof.

Thats actually a very good idea! Not only do you get hot water free, you also get a cooler roof and that means a cooler home!

All at no cost!

[naka]

While solar power is a good way to generate hot water it is simply not practical for

producing electricity (photovoltiac cells + inverter)

The factory gate price for a mid sized house package would be around US 45,000

and that is NOT a battery backed system, it is simply supplementary to mains power.

This system would need installation (at additional cost) of a solar array of around 30 x 30 feet in total

Now after all this initial cost you could expect to generate around 4.0 kW per 7 hour day average.

Since a smallish A/C unit consumes over 2 kW ... well you see the problem. You

would be lucky to power just one average A/C and little else and then for only

6-7 hours per day.

The only 'sort off' cost effective way to currently generate electricity is wind power

but Thailand does not have much of this commodity.

Naka.

Edited December 7, 2007 by naka

[Gary A]

Other than solar hot water, solar power is simply too expensive. I researched it quite extensively and the two companies that even bothered to answer my email inquiries both had identical prices of 180,000 baht for a 450 watt system. At that cost there would NEVER be a payback. I didn't bother to get a quote for a bigger system.

[Ricardo]

Solar electricity is still not a viable option for a modern house with AC etc.

Solar water heating is, but when I searched in LOS a few years back I could not find any

source of equipment, produced locally.

I regret not experimenting with home made units.

Just run the mains water pipes carrying water destined for your shower all over your roof.

Or, given that this can result in water which is too hot, use a tank to feed your showers & hot-water taps, and run a simple solar-powered pre-heater loop into the tank. Your normal electric-heaters will still warm the water when necessary, your mixer will still add cold mains-water to the hot feed when necessary to cool it, and your tank will feed warmed water to the heaters when possible, saving on the electricity to heat it up to the desired temperature.

It ought to be fairly simple - so the Thais should be expert at doing it - it obviously works for the hotels who use this sort of solar-booster system.

[ClaudeFeller]

Here my 2 cents as a professional about renewable energies:

- Solar Water Heaters made in Thailand are the most expensives worldwide because the profit marge is about 300 %

- Some BKK companies sell Solar Water Heaters made in China, same above

Prices and services are ridicolous but they promise a ROI (pay back) after 1 year.

Pay 20.000 THB for Solar Water Heaters for 4 peoples and you get a ROI after 5 years. Thai companies will ask 50.000 THB for a similar product.

- Solar electrictiy is only economical where no grid power is available.

- If you have grid power the ROI of a solar system can be after 30 years.

- Thai companies are extremly expensive because they have a huge profit marge.

- Normally you even get no answer if you have an inquiry

- Thailand has a feed-in tariff like western countries but it is extremly difficult to apply for (complete lack of knowledge at the EGAT)

Biggest deal in Thailand is energy saving by better insulation, low consumption devices and no-oversized aircon.

But here: Most Thais dont have a problem to waste energy.

A country where a 3,0 l Pick-up truck is almost tax-free has no real interest in saving energy or in educate the people.