Waterfront Pattaya Bay

[anneclayton]

Nosie and diesel pollution, Israeli developers, Russians neighbors, Thai boat mafia, shoddy construction on an illegal building site. 20% down no refunds. No one mentioning the names to protect the guilty.

Anyone getting into this project deserves what they get

EXACTLY !!!! Here's is an update for all who are interested:

These Israeli scam artists hired a decent looking guy named David Walton (a PR/marketing figure) who, I presume, is supposed to re-direct public eye from them to him and to make the whole scam look decent and smooth. In the last 2 months they had a HUGE PR-campaign in all Pattaya newspapers with all kind of paid articles re-iterating the exclusivity and beauty of this project. A Russian friend of mine told me they are throwing money like crazy at all Russian media here as well as in Russia - in their last attempt to get the whole Ponzi scheme going. One 30-page real estate magazine featured 11 (!) full-color pages of all kind of propaganda and boiler room agenda in Russian - all devoted to Waterfront. The two out of 11 pages were the front and second covers. Even though the publication appears as if it is from a 3rd party real estate agency, it looks as if it was sponsored by Waterfront. And take a look inside: "Guaranteed annual rental returns of 10-12% with annual price appreciation on the secondary market at a rate of 30%". Can you BELIEVE it ?!?! At the prices of 8-10 Million BHT for a medium sized apartment such growth ?!?! The guys must be dreaming to outperform Warren Buffet, no less . Gee, I'd say if you buy it for 9 M, and sell it for 7 M in three years from now, you should consider yourself VERY lucky.

Edited December 6, 2008 by anneclayton

[Pattaya46]

noise, new go-cart track right out side their doors

This is news to me.

What is the go-cart thing all about?

Search "EasyKart Pattaya" on google, or look at their .net site.

[jimmybkk]

anneclayton - they are some fairly strong charges you lay against these guys - "Israeli scam artists" "Ponzi scheme" etc. Apart from some dubious sounding speculative claims they make as to the returns buyers may achieve, do you have any hard and fast facts that this project is a rip-off, or is it just your feeling?

I'm sure any buyers/potential buyers would be intersted to know.

[APMann]

I reckon this is just another too-expensive scheme launched at the wrong time. The general view is the backers have funds and it will be built, but selling it is another matter. I think other big Pattaya developers are more susceptible to market forces right now, as everyone is having trouble selling anything.

[farangpattaya]

· I think someone needs his head checked. "the incredible noise from the boat landing" – WHERE on Earth did you hear it?!? Just stand on the embankment near the spot where they do this "landing" and listen all you want – there is very little sound compared to the endless roar of motorbikes in busy central Pattaya streets. I personally live in a 5-storey building surrounded by 3 VERY BUSY streets. Motorbikes growl all the time, 24/7. I NEVER had a problem of awaking from this. Just use SOUNDPROOF windows, that's all !!

Just take a walk over there and listen. remember the complex will be built upward allowing for even more noise exposure. Maybe noise doesn't bother you as much as me or maybe your're part deaf?

I'm allergic to noise, especially unnecessary noise.

Used to live in Bang Saen, on the 12th floor of a seaside condominium complex. What kind of noise could possibly be a nuisance over there?

Not much, apart from from the <deleted>, coming from a disco around 3 a.m. with their cars stuffed with woofers and subwoofers and hold for a piss or a last bottle of beer right at the seaside parking in front of the building. Do you know what impact 4000 Watt have on a building?

[anneclayton]

anneclayton - they are some fairly strong charges you lay against these guys - "Israeli scam artists" "Ponzi scheme" etc. Apart from some dubious sounding speculative claims they make as to the returns buyers may achieve, do you have any hard and fast facts that this project is a rip-off, or is it just your feeling?

I'm sure any buyers/potential buyers would be intersted to know.

They don't have the money to build it. I am not sure how many units they need to sell by which point in time. I'd say if they sell 30% before start and 80% by half-completion, then they might pull it off (complete the building and furnishings). With median price of a unit at 10 Million BHT and today's market conditions it's gonna be tough.

Right, JimmyBKK, I do my homework. For one thing, if I had 10 M BHT to waste, I'd do it even better. Look this up:

"Atlas Estates (ATLS:LSE) set a new 52-week low during today's trading session when it reached 15.50. Over this period, the share price is down 94.81%": markets.ft.com/ft/tearsheets/performance.asp?s=ATLS%3ALSE

"Atlas Estates says Elran Real Estate won't sell its stake in company": www.advfn.com/lse/ShareNews.asp?sharenews=ATLS&article=23424029&headline=atlas-estates-says-elran-real-estate-wont-sell-its-stake-in-company-to

just read the headlines at the bottom of the second link! Sure impress you!

Who is Atlas? This is the only piece Elran holds publicly at major financial centers, share traded at LSE. Everything else is absolutely non-transparent (Tel Aviv exchange reputable? Transparent? Hardly). Now, what is Elran? Elran is a parent of Mistral, a company that develops Waterfront. They say it in any advertising booklet.

Sure a guy on the street can also say he's got 500 M USD because he is from Israel. He can even buy a villa near the ocean, fence it and put out a sign "Super 6-star 50-storey condo for sale" but it takes a lot more guts to actually do it. Even during the boom. But we are in the BUST phase of the economic cycle. Right in the middle of it. Sad but true.

One more thing people forget. Competition. 2-3 projects same stage as Waterfront plus 5-6 projects a lot closer to completion. All at lower prices, nice locations, more value for money.

Edited December 8, 2008 by anneclayton

[jimmybkk]

Sounds like you've done your research - too much info on the links for my eyes to cope with but I see that the share price of Atlas has taken a massive pounding since the beginning of the year.

I have it on good authority that confirmed sales to date are less than 10%. I just hope that with all these new projects if they can't reach sufficient pre-sales numbers to warrant starting construction that they do the right thing and return deposits.

[anneclayton]

Fact: extremely noisy from the tractors pulling boats and a foul stench from the exhaust fumes and oil soaked pavement

Opinion: I it is a horrible place to live b/c of the noise pollution

I'm allergic to noise, especially unnecessary noise. What kind of noise could possibly be a nuisance over there?

In fact, the noise was unbearable on Sunday, Dec 14th even at the mountain top - viewpoint. They had a race at the Bali Hai pier, you can see it on the photo below as well as the construction progress (so far: ZERO) .

Edited December 15, 2008 by anneclayton

[Wonderboy]

Who is Atlas? This is the only piece Elran holds publicly at major financial centers, share traded at LSE. Everything else is absolutely non-transparent (Tel Aviv exchange reputable? Transparent? Hardly). Now, what is Elran? Elran is a parent of Mistral, a company that develops Waterfront. They say it in any advertising booklet.

Sure a guy on the street can also say he's got 500 M USD because he is from Israel. He can even buy a villa near the ocean, fence it and put out a sign "Super 6-star 50-storey condo for sale" but it takes a lot more guts to actually do it. Even during the boom. But we are in the BUST phase of the economic cycle. Right in the middle of it. Sad but true.

One more thing people forget. Competition. 2-3 projects same stage as Waterfront plus 5-6 projects a lot closer to completion. All at lower prices, nice locations, more value for money.

I might be wrong on this, but I am quite sure it is Elran who is behind another major project at Na Jomtien consisting of 3 huge high rise towers. They started laying the foundations a couple of months ago, then everything came to a halt shortly after. Still have machines and equipment on-site left untouced. What was before a rather nice place (Tarzan Hut), is now a miserable eyesore. I dont expect anything to happen there for years. I would not buy anything not really close to completion these days. In fact, I will probably never buy off-plan in Pattaya ever again. Since 2005 there have been launched an incredible amount of major beachfront developments. Many have already failed, none are complete (Ocean Portofino is close though) and not a single one are sold out even after beeing on the market for years. Many have not even started building or building have stalled. Still there are more new ones like Waterfront and W-Tower coming onto the market. Insane...

WB

[sjs]

There are serious unresolved issues regarding distance from Median Sea Level. I wouldn't go near this project with a barge pole until those issues are decided in Administrative Court. That goes for other unbuilt projects close to the sea.

A: No problem... (she replay in the office)

And if that isn't enough to put you off just look at the per m2 prices they're asking for it!!!!!!

A: from 95.000 thb pr. m2 op to 145.000 thb pr m2 (she replay in the office)

Start: 2Q 2008

Finish sometime in 2010...

Community Fee: 60 thb pr. m2 --- today... (she replay in the office)

She talk in the office about a garenti, bank or company. I know there is no Garenti in Thailand but if it is a big international company ther can give you a garenti becorse they whant money before house finish.

20% upon signing contract

15% upon start af piling

50% upon start of main structure (spread over 30 Months construction period with 10 Quarterly payments)

15% Upon Completion

20% sold already... (she replay in the office)

Seem to bee sold fast... (perhaps sold before the start selling)

I think house look nice compare to a lot of others, but to expensive to mee without finance. Can bee a good investment if the house finish without problem. If you want to by look company op that is bilding the house.

Moshe Tzur International LTD (that the name they right on the prospekt to house)

Blackadder

Blackadder - are you saying the Israeli company doing the building is also acting as guarantor of the buyer's payments? That presents two problems -

1. In all likelihood (unless they ringfence buyers funds, which, here in the Wild West, is hardly likely when they are not legally obliged to do so, especially when they need these funds for actually building). So if they go bust, you should assume they go bust for the building and for the guarantees.

2. In all likelihood, the guarantee arrangement will not be recognised in Thai law, unless you do some clever legal drafting with them to specifically make it enforceable in the event of the developer going bankrupt (bankruptcy law will override their obligations as guarantors, unless they have actually put your money to one side in a specifically identifiable bank account). If not, don't even try pursuing an Israeli company in Israel for a guarantee if you have to sue over there! It would never be worth it.

So it is best to assume this guarantee is just worthless marketing, unless you can explain to me where I am going wrong?

Many thanks,

Sharecropper

Sory about my late replay.

She told me in the office, there is a bank guarantee if building not finish.

I replay: Bank guarantee?

(she replay in the office) yes, Bank guarantee.

I replay: Thai Bank guarantee my money if house not finish.

(she replay in the office) yes

I replay: Thai bank give me money back if house not finish

(she replay in the office) No, company give money back.

So it is best to assume this guarantee is just worthless marketing?

Yes i think so.

But better to get all that straight before paying – if it is an international company that wants to guarantee, it can do in a country where it have asset and with a low you trust. I think big international companies that want to be trustworthy have no problem in giving a guarantee under that condition.

A developer with no past performance or history in pattaya and building such a big expensive computer generated masterpiece calling it the waterfrount and collecting big sums of money along the way is not in a position to garantee anything,anybody investing in such a pie in the sky project is clearly a developers dream and must check in for brain scan to see if they have one.this does not stand out as a sound investment at all,it has no fundermentals in place developer ?,priced high,location,and not built,banks are not borrowing to projects in this position and if they dont sell units how are they going to build it,market is slow and bank loans as not easy to come by as this company is not doing too well on the isreal stock market at present,whos going to give a sinking ship money,that is clear to see so stay away from any high rise development in pattaya unless it is built,unless you want to lose your shirt(buyer beware)

[PhuketRam]

A source from inside...

Tells me, deposits have been lodged on 43 Units...

They are STILL waiting on Planning Permission!!! Objections have gone in from 3 Thai Business owners and Hoteliers...

The waterfront will block the view of the Pattaya Sign (not quite hollywood) but neverless a landmark.

So toss a coin, go ahead or not... i dont think the coin will come down yet..

[jimmybkk]

2 weeks ago they had 25 apartments sold. They must've had a very busy couple of weeks.

[hughden]

Their list dated 25th November shows 23 sold. Don't worry, there are units still available; for example, some reserved for Thai or Company ownership at 24 million for 148 square metres. Quite a bargain.

[MAC10]

Any updates on this?

[johng]

Any updates on this?

Yes.. they are still advertising this in some real estate rags absolutely no work has been done on the site

( except for what looks like the showroom )

[thaimate]

Far as i know they had a problem with the Thai company that was sinking the pillings ,doubled their price i believe.

[sharecropper]

I want to bump this thread to see if there is any further information from the developers or the promoters - or even frustrated investors - of this hopefully just-dormant project.

I know a lot of deposits were taken on units in it.

[dickie58]

I want to bump this thread to see if there is any further information from the developers or the promoters - or even frustrated investors - of this hopefully just-dormant project.

I know a lot of deposits were taken on units in it.

I know a Swedish guy who lives & works in Ptty, he paid a deposit on quite a large unit on a high floor in the Waterfront. I saw him a couple of weeks ago, i should have asked him whats going on?

[Tejas]

JESUS CHRIST, this thread amazes me. Lots of bloggers who don't know anything, just want to puke their bad opinion. Please do that in the beer bar where it is appropriate. In this forum I think you should hold on to facts, spiced up with some personal opinion.

Don't ANYONE understand this project will become a landmark, a Pattaya icon and one of the best investments ever in this area.

It will help Pattaya become an even more high end community together with all the other brand names allready built and soon to become. Be happy this fantastic building is built in our city.

If you need some true and real information about this project, I have it but I will not discuss this matter with a born pessimist and possibly anarcist.

Just learned that Pattaya have been voted #1 Sin City in the world. Project like this will get Pattaya rated much lower in the future and I, for one, desire that progress.

Are you joking? I am not sure. "Landmark." "Best investments ever." "Even more high end community." You are joking, right?

[Pattaya46]

You are joking, right?

He is not joking, but maybe he was jocking when he wrote this.

Did you realize that you reply to a message from 2008 ?

[basjke]

Isn't this the development that initially was sold by Som from the facebook page.

[sharecropper]

Isn't this the development that initially was sold by Som from the facebook page.

I was wondering that myself......

[basjke]

Isn't this the development that initially was sold by Som from the facebook page.

I was wondering that myself......

I'm pretty sure it was,maybe that is were the 18 million went.

[LennyW]

Isn't this the development that initially was sold by Som from the facebook page.

I was wondering that myself......

I'm pretty sure it was,maybe that is were the 18 million went.

Are you sure you are not an agent, you seem to have magically increased by 4 Million from the original article??

[sharecropper]

Isn't this the development that initially was sold by Som from the facebook page.

I was wondering that myself......

I'm pretty sure it was,maybe that is were the 18 million went.

If people who have paid deposits for buildings that have not materialised start bringing clams against the agents, where will it end!

Regrettably most sign contracts like the Ocean 1 contract saying the developer can start effectively whenever he likes, and so the money even if spent, cannot be claimed back becaue of the contract wording, but I bet a good class-action lawsuit by some disgruntled "owners' could give developers a run for their money on the basis of such contracts clearly being void (especially if there are no serious plans in hand for the construction) and therefore at an end. Money back please.....

Just a thought.

[basjke]

Isn't this the development that initially was sold by Som from the facebook page.

I was wondering that myself......

I'm pretty sure it was,maybe that is were the 18 million went.

Are you sure you are not an agent, you seem to have magically increased by 4 Million from the original article??

The last I read in that topic was that the allegations made over the 14 Million were false.So I assumed the amount must have been higher.

[TheWalkingMan]

Isn't this the development that initially was sold by Som from the facebook page.

Cruel, cruel, cruel. But it made me laugh.

TheWalkingMan

[thaimate]

Heard the other day from a reliable source that it looks like it will not go ahead. And no it wasnt some guy in a bar

[Ungabunga]

Heard the other day from a reliable source that it looks like it will not go ahead. And no it wasnt some guy in a bar

Thaimate, you are 100% correct, it is NOT GOING AHEAD -although I am dissapointed that the man in the bar failed to mention it! Normally he never misses a trick.

[OZEMADE]

Heard the other day from a reliable source that it looks like it will not go ahead. And no it wasnt some guy in a bar

Thaimate, you are 100% correct, it is NOT GOING AHEAD -although I am dissapointed that the man in the bar failed to mention it! Normally he never misses a trick.

Well I heard from two guys in a bar that things are not going too well in Pattaya as far as sales go and they are doing more business on the Dark side.