Another Burapha The Best Horror Story

[lemel]

"I have visited the school and yes, it is shabby in places as the result of the children.."......

A comment like this really totally invalidates any thing this person might have to say - IT"S THE KIDS FAULT the the place is shabby - I ask you!!!!!

I suppose it's the kid's fault he broke his arm and received no treatment!?!?!?!?!

I would also question the motives of this poster - naming Names etc is rather threatening in tone.....what is his interest/relationship with the school?

I hve no axe to grind here and I have no kids in the school.

I do know several parents who have removed their children from this school and are highly critical of the goings on there.

And then there was the recent thread concerning the incident where the kids were vaccinated without their parent's consent - indeed in some cases after the parents had expressly stated NOT to vaccinate them, which resulted in some kids receiving a double dose. Not only was this 'mistake' outrageously careless and dangerous, but the subsequent attitude of school officials beggared belief!

I know that one has to take anything posted here with a degree of scepticism, but to me the evidence from people I happen to know personally is overwhelming, and I would advise all parents to give this school a wide birth,. It really is bad news.

Mobi,

The original thread about the broken arm incident is appauling but when you mention about the vaccination it got me very very concerned. My daughter attends the Kindergarden side of the school and stories like these are scary. We took our daughter out of Satit and moved her to BEST to help (we thought!) her English improve but on my last few trips to pick her up I have noticed how badly maintained the place is. I work offshore so my wife did all the investigating for a new school and didn't have any real information that set the alarm bells ringing but reading this has, so we will be taking a closer look when I get home!

I took my daughter out from this school when she was 3, as she was being hit, along with the other kids in her class by a friend of the Thai principal, who would not do anything to stop it, as it is his bit on the side apparently!!

Anyway we moved her to Phoenix kindergarden school on Sukhumvit 100m from Kanyong building suppliers. Great positive English teachers and spotless new school, reasonably priced as well. I've just got back from their Christmas show and it was excellent and all the families enjoyed it. My daughter has improved fantastically and now speaks fluent Thai & English and leans 30mins of Chinese everyday as well. The principal and his wife are there everyday and are very conscientious in ensuring the school is running well. Give it a try as it is well worth the trip.

[wilko]

I'm drifting off topic a bit here but I seems to me that it would be a good idea for parents to insist on verification of teachers qualifications at these schools.

As a teacher of English they must have a degree and TEFL - I've met teachers over the years who are quite happy to admit they have either no degree or a false one.

If they are prepared to lie about that, what else do they lie about?

[barryofthailand]

Surely you must have some recourse. Can something like this not be reported to some kind of government department. These schools must have to go through some kind of acceptance procedure in order that they can do business or is it just the case that any one can set up a school without any kind of approval. I would be investigating where to go and whom I should contact. It is obvious that you will get no satisfaction from within the school. As was said before on this thread go for the jugular. These people must be made to understand that they have a responsibility to you and your child that they are legally bound by. Please do not let it go as so many others have. I know that fighting these people can be a nightmare so let someone fight for you.

You can write the Department of Education in Bangkok. This is the government agency that credits the schools.

Barry

[rambler]

I agree 100% - something must be done the the place is a total sham the teachers dont give a shit but who can blame them when the school is run so poorly and they get zero support. Whilst i dont want to tempt fete its only a matter of time until the next accident for sure id guess a child being run over on the corner . Blame firmly lies with the owner(tightfisted toad) and director(spineless wimp)of the school. SEASONS GREETINGS TO ALL.

Are we talking about the foreign teachers here...........the Thai teachers, or both?

Simple answer - from what ive seen first hand BOTH but of course not all who teach there fall into this catogary i know who they are and so should you as you work at the school (hence your constant mails on this site protecting the school)if you dont you must walk around with your eyes and ears closed. You have worked at BEST a reasonably short period of time for my sins i worked there approx 5yrs teaching P1-P5 maths ,sci and geog so i feel i can offer a fair and balanced view any one ignoring the schools decline is just blinkered for now please answer the following questions . 1.How many times have you seen the school owner at the school since you started ? 2.Do you beleive there are teachers working at BEST with dubious qualifications/backgrounds ? 3.Why is it there is now a massive staff turnover compared to 2/3/4 yrs ago and teachers are taking so much time off ill (usually Mondays)?. 4.Are you aware of a mass exodus of teachers and students at the end this term?. 5. Why are so many phillipino teachers coming into the school inturn being passed off as native speakers ?.......PLEASE Steve im not getting at you personally however iam very concerned about the current state of the school effecting my childs education and after recent events the general safety of all the kids who attend.

I will defend the school when some posts are exaggerated or are based on an axe to grind. This is true.

I do not walk around with my eyes shut. There are failings with all schools in one way or another. I work in the new building and I have never taught in the old one so i cannot comment on that.

I can say that in the new building, the place is clean, classrooms are light and cool and the children, generally, have a good attitude.

I am sorry for the OP,s son. Accidents do happen. It is the treatment ( or non treatment ) afterwards that is questionable.

I am not aware of ANY teachers here with " dubious " qualifications. Maybe previously, I don,t know. I do KNOW that criminal record checks from home countries are now insisted upon.......that new applicants have to be interviewed by the MoE big boss in Chonburi personally and checks are made.

I have NEVER seen the owner of the school..............same as I have never seen the owner of my last school..........St. Josephs, Bangna, Bangkok which charged 320,000 baht a year. I,m not quite sure what the relevance of that is supposed to be.

The Filipino teachers? If parents are not happy about them then that is for the parents to decide on the best means of addressing their concerns. Personally.............I find most of them hard working and dedicated to the children. Thats just my opinion of course.

High staff turnover? I have been here 9 months now and true...........I have seen 2 leave. The staff that remain in the new building seem happy enough and we all get along well. It seems..............." settled "

There was a threatened mass exodus at the mid-term break. Fact is.........it never happened. What actually happened was that I ended up with another 4 new children.

I have been informed by others that you have personal reasons and an axe to grind against the school. I don,t know and it is of no concern to me. As a teacher, my children are my concern. Despite the failings that the school does have...........I will still defend this school and its staff against any unreasonable and unjustified attack.

As concerned parents and staff we should be looking for ways to improve the school by consultation and discussion. Posts that just flame the school don,t really address the problems or the issues. Calm debate is needed.

It appears you will continue to keep your head firmly in the sand and your only retort is i have an axe to grind that is total crap my views are based on fact . To clarify I RESIGNED from BEST due to my son being involved in a serious accident when the school steel gate fell on him and another boy the owner actually accused me of trying ti kill the 2 boys one of which was my son remeber this also injured me hence i feel strongly about the OPs case ..."these things happen".... is a cop out how many more kids are gonna get hurt . At the time of my departure i and many others who worked there were so fed up with how the school was declining . If like you say i have an axe to grind why would i continue my sons education at BEST and recently i thanked the teachers (Thai and foriegn) who helped me during a stay in hospital i constanty meet socaily with these people certainly i dont grind axes with them or the school . Some friends asked me why has my son stayed at BEST after all ive said -- it was the best of a bad bunch of schools locally in this sector(not any more) my son is happy there but the chances have run out i feel so fed up as a fee paying parent now just as i did as an employee ,my son will be going to REPS in Bang Chang next term. please note my calmness SEASONS GREETINGS

[Manchester]

I'm drifting off topic a bit here but I seems to me that it would be a good idea for parents to insist on verification of teachers qualifications at these schools.

As a teacher of English they must have a degree and TEFL - I've met teachers over the years who are quite happy to admit they have either no degree or a false one.

If they are prepared to lie about that, what else do they lie about?

Reading stevemiddies previous post it would seem that Chonburi MoE is already doing this and that Immigratrion are asking for criminal record checks. This is obviously a good thing that should be conducted throughout all of Thailand

Edited December 21, 2007 by Manchester

[wilko]

I'm drifting off topic a bit here but I seems to me that it would be a good idea for parents to insist on verification of teachers qualifications at these schools.

As a teacher of English they must have a degree and TEFL - I've met teachers over the years who are quite happy to admit they have either no degree or a false one.

If they are prepared to lie about that, what else do they lie about?

Reading stevemiddies previous post it would seem that Chonburi MoE is already doing this and that Immigratrion are asking for criminal record checks. This is obviously a good thing that should be conducted throughout all of Thailand

Unfortunately if you leave it to the schools, Immigration and the MoE, certain indiscrepancies, skulduggery and loopholes may occur.

I'm sure that many degrees would not stand up under scrutiny......just insist on checking them all....see what you turn up....

If you're sending your child to a new school insist on seeing evidence of a TEFL cert and a degree.......is there a "University of North Piddle" - I think not!

If they don't care about who they employ they won't care about how they teach!

Edited December 21, 2007 by wilko

[stevemiddie]

I agree 100% - something must be done the the place is a total sham the teachers dont give a shit but who can blame them when the school is run so poorly and they get zero support. Whilst i dont want to tempt fete its only a matter of time until the next accident for sure id guess a child being run over on the corner . Blame firmly lies with the owner(tightfisted toad) and director(spineless wimp)of the school. SEASONS GREETINGS TO ALL.

Are we talking about the foreign teachers here...........the Thai teachers, or both?

Simple answer - from what ive seen first hand BOTH but of course not all who teach there fall into this catogary i know who they are and so should you as you work at the school (hence your constant mails on this site protecting the school)if you dont you must walk around with your eyes and ears closed. You have worked at BEST a reasonably short period of time for my sins i worked there approx 5yrs teaching P1-P5 maths ,sci and geog so i feel i can offer a fair and balanced view any one ignoring the schools decline is just blinkered for now please answer the following questions . 1.How many times have you seen the school owner at the school since you started ? 2.Do you beleive there are teachers working at BEST with dubious qualifications/backgrounds ? 3.Why is it there is now a massive staff turnover compared to 2/3/4 yrs ago and teachers are taking so much time off ill (usually Mondays)?. 4.Are you aware of a mass exodus of teachers and students at the end this term?. 5. Why are so many phillipino teachers coming into the school inturn being passed off as native speakers ?.......PLEASE Steve im not getting at you personally however iam very concerned about the current state of the school effecting my childs education and after recent events the general safety of all the kids who attend.

I will defend the school when some posts are exaggerated or are based on an axe to grind. This is true.

I do not walk around with my eyes shut. There are failings with all schools in one way or another. I work in the new building and I have never taught in the old one so i cannot comment on that.

I can say that in the new building, the place is clean, classrooms are light and cool and the children, generally, have a good attitude.

I am sorry for the OP,s son. Accidents do happen. It is the treatment ( or non treatment ) afterwards that is questionable.

I am not aware of ANY teachers here with " dubious " qualifications. Maybe previously, I don,t know. I do KNOW that criminal record checks from home countries are now insisted upon.......that new applicants have to be interviewed by the MoE big boss in Chonburi personally and checks are made.

I have NEVER seen the owner of the school..............same as I have never seen the owner of my last school..........St. Josephs, Bangna, Bangkok which charged 320,000 baht a year. I,m not quite sure what the relevance of that is supposed to be.

The Filipino teachers? If parents are not happy about them then that is for the parents to decide on the best means of addressing their concerns. Personally.............I find most of them hard working and dedicated to the children. Thats just my opinion of course.

High staff turnover? I have been here 9 months now and true...........I have seen 2 leave. The staff that remain in the new building seem happy enough and we all get along well. It seems..............." settled "

There was a threatened mass exodus at the mid-term break. Fact is.........it never happened. What actually happened was that I ended up with another 4 new children.

I have been informed by others that you have personal reasons and an axe to grind against the school. I don,t know and it is of no concern to me. As a teacher, my children are my concern. Despite the failings that the school does have...........I will still defend this school and its staff against any unreasonable and unjustified attack.

As concerned parents and staff we should be looking for ways to improve the school by consultation and discussion. Posts that just flame the school don,t really address the problems or the issues. Calm debate is needed.

It appears you will continue to keep your head firmly in the sand and your only retort is i have an axe to grind that is total crap my views are based on fact . To clarify I RESIGNED from BEST due to my son being involved in a serious accident when the school steel gate fell on him and another boy the owner actually accused me of trying ti kill the 2 boys one of which was my son remeber this also injured me hence i feel strongly about the OPs case ..."these things happen".... is a cop out how many more kids are gonna get hurt . At the time of my departure i and many others who worked there were so fed up with how the school was declining . If like you say i have an axe to grind why would i continue my sons education at BEST and recently i thanked the teachers (Thai and foriegn) who helped me during a stay in hospital i constanty meet socaily with these people certainly i dont grind axes with them or the school . Some friends asked me why has my son stayed at BEST after all ive said -- it was the best of a bad bunch of schools locally in this sector(not any more) my son is happy there but the chances have run out i feel so fed up as a fee paying parent now just as i did as an employee ,my son will be going to REPS in Bang Chang next term. please note my calmness SEASONS GREETINGS

I,m not going to get into an endless debate about this but where in my post does it state that I believe you have an axe to grind? I stated that OTHERS informed me that you do. I stated that I really DON,T KNOW

I have heard about the incident involving your son and of course my sympathies go to you for what was a very worrying time.

[Westerner]

The OP is very conspicuous by his absence.........Troll, or what?

[sbk]

OP does not appear to be a troll if you read through his past posts.

That said, lets keep this in the realm of civility and within the guidelines of what OP should do in this instance. Thanks

[thaieagle67]

"I have visited the school and yes, it is shabby in places as the result of the children.."......

A comment like this really totally invalidates any thing this person might have to say - IT"S THE KIDS FAULT the the place is shabby - I ask you!!!!!

I suppose it's the kid's fault he broke his arm and received no treatment!?!?!?!?!

I would also question the motives of this poster - naming Names etc is rather threatening in tone.....what is his interest/relationship with the school?

I hve no axe to grind here and I have no kids in the school.

I do know several parents who have removed their children from this school and are highly critical of the goings on there.

And then there was the recent thread concerning the incident where the kids were vaccinated without their parent's consent - indeed in some cases after the parents had expressly stated NOT to vaccinate them, which resulted in some kids receiving a double dose. Not only was this 'mistake' outrageously careless and dangerous, but the subsequent attitude of school officials beggared belief!

I know that one has to take anything posted here with a degree of scepticism, but to me the evidence from people I happen to know personally is overwhelming, and I would advise all parents to give this school a wide birth,. It really is bad news.

Mobi,

The original thread about the broken arm incident is appauling but when you mention about the vaccination it got me very very concerned. My daughter attends the Kindergarden side of the school and stories like these are scary. We took our daughter out of Satit and moved her to BEST to help (we thought!) her English improve but on my last few trips to pick her up I have noticed how badly maintained the place is. I work offshore so my wife did all the investigating for a new school and didn't have any real information that set the alarm bells ringing but reading this has, so we will be taking a closer look when I get home!

I took my daughter out from this school when she was 3, as she was being hit, along with the other kids in her class by a friend of the Thai principal, who would not do anything to stop it, as it is his bit on the side apparently!!

Anyway we moved her to Phoenix kindergarden school on Sukhumvit 100m from Kanyong building suppliers. Great positive English teachers and spotless new school, reasonably priced as well. I've just got back from their Christmas show and it was excellent and all the families enjoyed it. My daughter has improved fantastically and now speaks fluent Thai & English and leans 30mins of Chinese everyday as well. The principal and his wife are there everyday and are very conscientious in ensuring the school is running well. Give it a try as it is well worth the trip.

Thanks for the info. We'll give it a look over when i get back to Pattaya, as well as the possibility to take my daughter back to Satit. Reports from the forum tell us that improvements have been made at Satit that at least warrant another look.

[Manchester2]

First of all, sorry to hear about the OP's child. It is disgusting! Secondly, why do you all send your children there? You know how bad the school is, so why bother? Get you hand in your pocket and send them to a decent international school! Like anything in life you get what you pay for.

What 'qualified teacher' in their right mind would work for peanuts? None. That's how many! You need to keep this in mind; this is why the school is crap. They employ cheap labour and this is the result you get (no offence intended to the people who've had misfortune(s) with B.E.S.T school). But come on guys', send your children to a good school and this would not happen!

[thaimate]

if any of you want a recomendation,my lad does the english programe at assumption in sri racha,an excellent school with terrific facilities.he is fluent in english and thai also learns chinese.

you get what you pay for has always been my moto.

[mopenyang]

I agree 100% - something must be done the the place is a total sham the teachers dont give a shit but who can blame them when the school is run so poorly and they get zero support. Whilst i dont want to tempt fete its only a matter of time until the next accident for sure id guess a child being run over on the corner . Blame firmly lies with the owner(tightfisted toad) and director(spineless wimp)of the school. SEASONS GREETINGS TO ALL.

Are we talking about the foreign teachers here...........the Thai teachers, or both?

Simple answer - from what ive seen first hand BOTH but of course not all who teach there fall into this catogary i know who they are and so should you as you work at the school (hence your constant mails on this site protecting the school)if you dont you must walk around with your eyes and ears closed. You have worked at BEST a reasonably short period of time for my sins i worked there approx 5yrs teaching P1-P5 maths ,sci and geog so i feel i can offer a fair and balanced view any one ignoring the schools decline is just blinkered for now please answer the following questions . 1.How many times have you seen the school owner at the school since you started ? 2.Do you beleive there are teachers working at BEST with dubious qualifications/backgrounds ? 3.Why is it there is now a massive staff turnover compared to 2/3/4 yrs ago and teachers are taking so much time off ill (usually Mondays)?. 4.Are you aware of a mass exodus of teachers and students at the end this term?. 5. Why are so many phillipino teachers coming into the school inturn being passed off as native speakers ?.......PLEASE Steve im not getting at you personally however iam very concerned about the current state of the school effecting my childs education and after recent events the general safety of all the kids who attend.

I will defend the school when some posts are exaggerated or are based on an axe to grind. This is true.

I do not walk around with my eyes shut. There are failings with all schools in one way or another. I work in the new building and I have never taught in the old one so i cannot comment on that.

I can say that in the new building, the place is clean, classrooms are light and cool and the children, generally, have a good attitude.

I am sorry for the OP,s son. Accidents do happen. It is the treatment ( or non treatment ) afterwards that is questionable.

I am not aware of ANY teachers here with " dubious " qualifications. Maybe previously, I don,t know. I do KNOW that criminal record checks from home countries are now insisted upon.......that new applicants have to be interviewed by the MoE big boss in Chonburi personally and checks are made.

I have NEVER seen the owner of the school..............same as I have never seen the owner of my last school..........St. Josephs, Bangna, Bangkok which charged 320,000 baht a year. I,m not quite sure what the relevance of that is supposed to be.

The Filipino teachers? If parents are not happy about them then that is for the parents to decide on the best means of addressing their concerns. Personally.............I find most of them hard working and dedicated to the children. Thats just my opinion of course.

High staff turnover? I have been here 9 months now and true...........I have seen 2 leave. The staff that remain in the new building seem happy enough and we all get along well. It seems..............." settled "

There was a threatened mass exodus at the mid-term break. Fact is.........it never happened. What actually happened was that I ended up with another 4 new children.

I have been informed by others that you have personal reasons and an axe to grind against the school. I don,t know and it is of no concern to me. As a teacher, my children are my concern. Despite the failings that the school does have...........I will still defend this school and its staff against any unreasonable and unjustified attack.

As concerned parents and staff we should be looking for ways to improve the school by consultation and discussion. Posts that just flame the school don,t really address the problems or the issues. Calm debate is needed.

Since you seem to have some firsthand experience at the school in question, are you able to advise whether or not the "medical room" there is continuously manned by qualified medical personnel while school is in session?

[rambler]

I agree 100% - something must be done the the place is a total sham the teachers dont give a shit but who can blame them when the school is run so poorly and they get zero support. Whilst i dont want to tempt fete its only a matter of time until the next accident for sure id guess a child being run over on the corner . Blame firmly lies with the owner(tightfisted toad) and director(spineless wimp)of the school. SEASONS GREETINGS TO ALL.

Are we talking about the foreign teachers here...........the Thai teachers, or both?

Simple answer - from what ive seen first hand BOTH but of course not all who teach there fall into this catogary i know who they are and so should you as you work at the school (hence your constant mails on this site protecting the school)if you dont you must walk around with your eyes and ears closed. You have worked at BEST a reasonably short period of time for my sins i worked there approx 5yrs teaching P1-P5 maths ,sci and geog so i feel i can offer a fair and balanced view any one ignoring the schools decline is just blinkered for now please answer the following questions . 1.How many times have you seen the school owner at the school since you started ? 2.Do you beleive there are teachers working at BEST with dubious qualifications/backgrounds ? 3.Why is it there is now a massive staff turnover compared to 2/3/4 yrs ago and teachers are taking so much time off ill (usually Mondays)?. 4.Are you aware of a mass exodus of teachers and students at the end this term?. 5. Why are so many phillipino teachers coming into the school inturn being passed off as native speakers ?.......PLEASE Steve im not getting at you personally however iam very concerned about the current state of the school effecting my childs education and after recent events the general safety of all the kids who attend.

I will defend the school when some posts are exaggerated or are based on an axe to grind. This is true.

I do not walk around with my eyes shut. There are failings with all schools in one way or another. I work in the new building and I have never taught in the old one so i cannot comment on that.

I can say that in the new building, the place is clean, classrooms are light and cool and the children, generally, have a good attitude.

I am sorry for the OP,s son. Accidents do happen. It is the treatment ( or non treatment ) afterwards that is questionable.

I am not aware of ANY teachers here with " dubious " qualifications. Maybe previously, I don,t know. I do KNOW that criminal record checks from home countries are now insisted upon.......that new applicants have to be interviewed by the MoE big boss in Chonburi personally and checks are made.

I have NEVER seen the owner of the school..............same as I have never seen the owner of my last school..........St. Josephs, Bangna, Bangkok which charged 320,000 baht a year. I,m not quite sure what the relevance of that is supposed to be.

The Filipino teachers? If parents are not happy about them then that is for the parents to decide on the best means of addressing their concerns. Personally.............I find most of them hard working and dedicated to the children. Thats just my opinion of course.

High staff turnover? I have been here 9 months now and true...........I have seen 2 leave. The staff that remain in the new building seem happy enough and we all get along well. It seems..............." settled "

There was a threatened mass exodus at the mid-term break. Fact is.........it never happened. What actually happened was that I ended up with another 4 new children.

I have been informed by others that you have personal reasons and an axe to grind against the school. I don,t know and it is of no concern to me. As a teacher, my children are my concern. Despite the failings that the school does have...........I will still defend this school and its staff against any unreasonable and unjustified attack.

As concerned parents and staff we should be looking for ways to improve the school by consultation and discussion. Posts that just flame the school don,t really address the problems or the issues. Calm debate is needed.

Since you seem to have some firsthand experience at the school in question, are you able to advise whether or not the "medical room" there is continuously manned by qualified medical personnel while school is in session?

There were two medical rooms at BEST one in each building but nothing special really only a bed and im pretty sure there isnt a qualified nurse stationed in either of them in the old building its part of the staff room.

[EmCross]

if any of you want a recomendation,my lad does the english programe at assumption in sri racha,an excellent school with terrific facilities.he is fluent in english and thai also learns chinese.

you get what you pay for has always been my moto.

I am appalled but not surprised by the OP's story; this school goes from bad to worse!

We took our children out of this school at the end of last term (October) because we were totally disgusted with the standard of education our children were getting and the state of the school; lack of facilities, cleanliness and basic lack of any responsibility by any of the teachers or staff at the school for anything. BEST school is a disgrace! Also the fact that the Thai teachers routinely hit the children which is totally unnecessary and not helpful under any circumstances and should be stopped. We made several complaints but never had any reply and no improvement.

We looked at Assumption school in Sri racha and it looks very nice with very good facilities but it only takes boys!! The out dated and frankly sexist attitude does not bode well for this school, plus the fact that we have a boy and a girl and going to different schools is just not practical for us.

We went to see R.E.P.S school at Bang Chang (next door to the Garden international school) and it looked really good, clean, great atmosphere, nice friendly staff and teachers and they were building a new school which was due to open for the new term in November. We enrolled our two children and they started their new school (in new purpose built building as promised) last November and we can not believe the difference in them both. They both love school and really look forward to going each day. They have proper sports facilities and a lovely big swimming pool and swim every week. My son has made huge improvements in all areas in the last two months and even came top of his class in his math's tests this week; you would not believe it was the same boy who was totally switched off from school and would do anything not to go to school when he was at BEST. My girl used to cry going to school at BEST everyday because she said she would get hit now she goes with a big smile and comes home happy and chatty about her day at school.

Moving our children to this school has been the best decision we have made since arriving in Thailand and worth every minute of the extra travelling time.

My point is that there are some very good alternatives (and not any where near as costly as the international schools) to BEST and you may have to travel a bit more or pay for the school bus but it has to be worth it to see the difference in the happiness and the standard of education your children get.

[tattoodrob]

I'll keep this short for the sake of my blood pressure.

Last wednesday I went to pick up my boys as usual, about 3.45. When I got to the school I saw my youngest (6 years old) sat in his usual place outside the new building waiting for me. He was crying. I guessed he'd had a falling out with a friend or something and went over, rubbed him on the head and asked him what was wrong. He said his arm hurt. When I looked down I immediately noticed he had a broken arm. I couldn't believe it! Can you?

No teacher sat with him, no phone call to inform us (even though it happened at afternoon break 2 hrs previous!), no transport to hospital for xrays, nothing! NOTHING!!

When I collared his Thai classroom teacher he did a wonderful job of deflecting any responsibility and basically said it was my boys fault for not telling anyone. He said that he had taken him to the medical room and decided after twisting and pushing and pulling that it was just a bruise. When I reminded him that he wasn't a doctor and he had been extremely negligent he said, 'well, if that's what you think that's up to you.' and went to walk away.

Unbelievable!

Anyway, the bottom line is when you leave your child in the care of a supposed professional you don't expect to find them sat unattended, in pain, crying, at the front of the school with a broken arm when you go and pick them up at hometime.

Of course, the worst thing is that nothing will be done about it. When my wife bumped into another Thai teacher from the school yesterday he said that my son shouldn't be so quiet and speak up if there is something wrong. AHHH!!!!

Best summed up by a friend of mine who was present at the time - 'BUNCH OF IDIOTS!'

yes i can believe it.......everyday read and hear stories like this..........sorry dont know the answer.the problem i think is that we were brought up in different country with different values,you cant fast forward a nation(thailand) 30 years so will have to wait for it to hopefully catch up!!!

[stevemiddie]

Since you seem to have some firsthand experience at the school in question, are you able to advise whether or not the "medical room" there is continuously manned by qualified medical personnel while school is in session?

There is a medical room in the new building. It has the usual anti-septics, plasters, cotton balls, headache tablets. Thats about it though.

It is not " continuously manned " to the best of my knowledge.

As far as I am aware I am the only one that is " qualified " I hold a current First Aid Certificate from the UK. For whats it worth.

Minor scrapes and bumps etc I usually deal with myself but that is only to the children in my care. Often, such as the incident with the OP,s son....I was not even aware anything had happened. We are told very little.

I would almost certainly have recognised a broken arm though and would have been able to deal with that initially. ( Had I known about it of course )

Edited December 22, 2007 by stevemiddie

[pointofview]

I agree 100% - something must be done the the place is a total sham the teachers dont give a shit but who can blame them when the school is run so poorly and they get zero support. Whilst i dont want to tempt fete its only a matter of time until the next accident for sure id guess a child being run over on the corner . Blame firmly lies with the owner(tightfisted toad) and director(spineless wimp)of the school. SEASONS GREETINGS TO ALL.

Are we talking about the foreign teachers here...........the Thai teachers, or both?

Simple answer - from what ive seen first hand BOTH but of course not all who teach there fall into this catogary i know who they are and so should you as you work at the school (hence your constant mails on this site protecting the school)if you dont you must walk around with your eyes and ears closed. You have worked at BEST a reasonably short period of time for my sins i worked there approx 5yrs teaching P1-P5 maths ,sci and geog so i feel i can offer a fair and balanced view any one ignoring the schools decline is just blinkered for now please answer the following questions . 1.How many times have you seen the school owner at the school since you started ? 2.Do you beleive there are teachers working at BEST with dubious qualifications/backgrounds ? 3.Why is it there is now a massive staff turnover compared to 2/3/4 yrs ago and teachers are taking so much time off ill (usually Mondays)?. 4.Are you aware of a mass exodus of teachers and students at the end this term?. 5. Why are so many phillipino teachers coming into the school inturn being passed off as native speakers ?.......PLEASE Steve im not getting at you personally however iam very concerned about the current state of the school effecting my childs education and after recent events the general safety of all the kids who attend.

I will defend the school when some posts are exaggerated or are based on an axe to grind. This is true.

I do not walk around with my eyes shut. There are failings with all schools in one way or another. I work in the new building and I have never taught in the old one so i cannot comment on that.

I can say that in the new building, the place is clean, classrooms are light and cool and the children, generally, have a good attitude.

I am sorry for the OP,s son. Accidents do happen. It is the treatment ( or non treatment ) afterwards that is questionable.

I am not aware of ANY teachers here with " dubious " qualifications. Maybe previously, I don,t know. I do KNOW that criminal record checks from home countries are now insisted upon.......that new applicants have to be interviewed by the MoE big boss in Chonburi personally and checks are made.

I have NEVER seen the owner of the school..............same as I have never seen the owner of my last school..........St. Josephs, Bangna, Bangkok which charged 320,000 baht a year. I,m not quite sure what the relevance of that is supposed to be.

The Filipino teachers? If parents are not happy about them then that is for the parents to decide on the best means of addressing their concerns. Personally.............I find most of them hard working and dedicated to the children. Thats just my opinion of course.

High staff turnover? I have been here 9 months now and true...........I have seen 2 leave. The staff that remain in the new building seem happy enough and we all get along well. It seems..............." settled "

There was a threatened mass exodus at the mid-term break. Fact is.........it never happened. What actually happened was that I ended up with another 4 new children.

I have been informed by others that you have personal reasons and an axe to grind against the school. I don,t know and it is of no concern to me. As a teacher, my children are my concern. Despite the failings that the school does have...........I will still defend this school and its staff against any unreasonable and unjustified attack.

As concerned parents and staff we should be looking for ways to improve the school by consultation and discussion. Posts that just flame the school don,t really address the problems or the issues. Calm debate is needed.

The people who have defended this school seem to have an agenda: 1 poster starts his defense by blaiming the kids for the state of the school - how ludicrous is that! Another defender promotes philpino teachers - in a thai /english school, again ludicrous. Giving innoculctions - totally <deleted>**ed up or what!

The teacher who said the child (6 years old) should have spoken up more - well they have already been cosmicly cursed. If he/she walked away from me giving that sh*t, well i would have broke both their arms.

Thing is basically if the owner of this school - not untypically - is paying peanuts then he is employing monkeys

The simple way to deal with this is to register a simple domain with a similar name i.e Burapa-school.net

Use enough hyperlinks to be well placed with search engines, upload a complaints blog - bingo! all for a few thousand baht.

Edited December 22, 2007 by pointofview

[EmCross]

Since you seem to have some firsthand experience at the school in question, are you able to advise whether or not the "medical room" there is continuously manned by qualified medical personnel while school is in session?

There is a medical room in the new building. It has the usual anti-septics, plasters, cotton balls, headache tablets. Thats about it though.

It is not " continuously manned " to the best of my knowledge.

As far as I am aware I am the only one that is " qualified " I hold a current First Aid Certificate from the UK. For whats it worth.

Minor scrapes and bumps etc I usually deal with myself but that is only to the children in my care. Often, such as the incident with the OP,s son....I was not even aware anything had happened. We are told very little.

I would almost certainly have recognised a broken arm though and would have been able to deal with that initially. ( Had I known about it of course )

I really think this is beside the point! This boy should have been taken to hospital immediately for treatment by qualified and trained medical people not left on his own to cry for hours how irresponsible is that?? It must have been quite obvious to any NORMAL person (let alone a school teacher) that it was more serious than a cut or bruise.

These children are placed in the care of the school every day and they are RESPONSIBLE for the care of the children during school hours; this is the least any parent should be able to expect and BEST can't even do that!

How any sane parent can leave their children in the care of this school after recent incidents is beyond me.

[pointofview]

The people who have defended this school seem to have an agenda: 1 poster starts his defense by blaiming the kids for the state of the school - how ludicrous is that! Another defender promotes philpino teachers - in a thai /english school, again ludicrous. Giving innoculctions - totally <deleted>**ed up or what!

The teacher who said the child (6 years old) should have spoken up more - well they have already been cosmicly cursed. If he/she walked away from me giving that sh*t, well i would have broke both their arms.

Thing is basically if the owner of this school - not untypically - is paying peanuts then he is employing monkeys

The simple way to deal with this is to register a simple domain with a similar name i.e Burapa-school.net

Use enough hyperlinks to be well placed with search engines, upload a complaints blog - bingo! all for a few thousand baht

[stevemiddie]

Since you seem to have some firsthand experience at the school in question, are you able to advise whether or not the "medical room" there is continuously manned by qualified medical personnel while school is in session?

There is a medical room in the new building. It has the usual anti-septics, plasters, cotton balls, headache tablets. Thats about it though.

It is not " continuously manned " to the best of my knowledge.

As far as I am aware I am the only one that is " qualified " I hold a current First Aid Certificate from the UK. For whats it worth.

Minor scrapes and bumps etc I usually deal with myself but that is only to the children in my care. Often, such as the incident with the OP,s son....I was not even aware anything had happened. We are told very little.

I would almost certainly have recognised a broken arm though and would have been able to deal with that initially. ( Had I known about it of course )

I really think this is beside the point! This boy should have been taken to hospital immediately for treatment by qualified and trained medical people not left on his own to cry for hours how irresponsible is that?? It must have been quite obvious to any NORMAL person (let alone a school teacher) that it was more serious than a cut or bruise.

These children are placed in the care of the school every day and they are RESPONSIBLE for the care of the children during school hours; this is the least any parent should be able to expect and BEST can't even do that!

How any sane parent can leave their children in the care of this school after recent incidents is beyond me.

EmCross. My post was in response to a question from another poster. Nothing more.............nothing less. It was asked if there are medical facilties there. I answered the question.

Edited December 22, 2007 by stevemiddie

[ErikD]

Since you seem to have some firsthand experience at the school in question, are you able to advise whether or not the "medical room" there is continuously manned by qualified medical personnel while school is in session?

There is a medical room in the new building. It has the usual anti-septics, plasters, cotton balls, headache tablets. Thats about it though.

It is not " continuously manned " to the best of my knowledge.

As far as I am aware I am the only one that is " qualified " I hold a current First Aid Certificate from the UK. For whats it worth.

Minor scrapes and bumps etc I usually deal with myself but that is only to the children in my care. Often, such as the incident with the OP,s son....I was not even aware anything had happened. We are told very little.

I would almost certainly have recognised a broken arm though and would have been able to deal with that initially. ( Had I known about it of course )

I really think this is beside the point! This boy should have been taken to hospital immediately for treatment by qualified and trained medical people not left on his own to cry for hours how irresponsible is that?? It must have been quite obvious to any NORMAL person (let alone a school teacher) that it was more serious than a cut or bruise.

These children are placed in the care of the school every day and they are RESPONSIBLE for the care of the children during school hours; this is the least any parent should be able to expect and BEST can't even do that!

How any sane parent can leave their children in the care of this school after recent incidents is beyond me.

EmCross. My post was in response to a question from another poster. Nothing more.............nothing less. It was asked if there are medical facilties there. I answered the question.

Stevemiddie,

You keep on defending BEST and since you work there I can sort of understand that.

But I am wondering when do you start to listen to all these worried parents?

"Accidents happen" is just a stupid reply and then saying that you are a qualified first aider who would have recognized a broken arm immediately is to me one step to far.

You are a member of staff at BEST and as such jointly responsible for what happens to the children at the time they are at the school.

Accident do happen but it is the reaction of the staff that is important and you have the basic medical knowledge to resolve these situations better than some of the others then perhaps you should start discussing this with your colleages (and perhaps the parents) and find a way for the school to react better in these situations and not excuse the school with "accidents happen".

And as a member of staff at BEST it might also be an idea to listen to the stories of these worried parents instead of just trying to talk wrongs right.

The new building is indeed new and therefore clean, but in the meantime the owner does not invest in gym facilities or any other facilities, the food that is served in the new part of the BEST school is just to ridiculous for words and has nothing to do with taking care of the well being of the children.

The fact is that the new building is there so that the owner can lure more paying customers.

It is not designed to make education any better or more attractive for the children.

That new building is also the building where the current head of the school lifted my then 9 year old son of the floor by holding by his neck.

I do think you are a genuine person so start listening to all these people and stop defending a shit situation and use your energy to improve things at that school in the interrest of the children and your job.

[rambler]

Since you seem to have some firsthand experience at the school in question, are you able to advise whether or not the "medical room" there is continuously manned by qualified medical personnel while school is in session?

There is a medical room in the new building. It has the usual anti-septics, plasters, cotton balls, headache tablets. Thats about it though.

It is not " continuously manned " to the best of my knowledge.

As far as I am aware I am the only one that is " qualified " I hold a current First Aid Certificate from the UK. For whats it worth.

Minor scrapes and bumps etc I usually deal with myself but that is only to the children in my care. Often, such as the incident with the OP,s son....I was not even aware anything had happened. We are told very little.

I would almost certainly have recognised a broken arm though and would have been able to deal with that initially. ( Had I known about it of course )

I really think this is beside the point! This boy should have been taken to hospital immediately for treatment by qualified and trained medical people not left on his own to cry for hours how irresponsible is that?? It must have been quite obvious to any NORMAL person (let alone a school teacher) that it was more serious than a cut or bruise.

These children are placed in the care of the school every day and they are RESPONSIBLE for the care of the children during school hours; this is the least any parent should be able to expect and BEST can't even do that!

How any sane parent can leave their children in the care of this school after recent incidents is beyond me.

EmCross. My post was in response to a question from another poster. Nothing more.............nothing less. It was asked if there are medical facilties there. I answered the question.

Stevemiddie,

You keep on defending BEST and since you work there I can sort of understand that.

But I am wondering when do you start to listen to all these worried parents?

"Accidents happen" is just a stupid reply and then saying that you are a qualified first aider who would have recognized a broken arm immediately is to me one step to far.

You are a member of staff at BEST and as such jointly responsible for what happens to the children at the time they are at the school.

Accident do happen but it is the reaction of the staff that is important and you have the basic medical knowledge to resolve these situations better than some of the others then perhaps you should start discussing this with your colleages (and perhaps the parents) and find a way for the school to react better in these situations and not excuse the school with "accidents happen".

And as a member of staff at BEST it might also be an idea to listen to the stories of these worried parents instead of just trying to talk wrongs right.

The new building is indeed new and therefore clean, but in the meantime the owner does not invest in gym facilities or any other facilities, the food that is served in the new part of the BEST school is just to ridiculous for words and has nothing to do with taking care of the well being of the children.

The fact is that the new building is there so that the owner can lure more paying customers.

It is not designed to make education any better or more attractive for the children.

That new building is also the building where the current head of the school lifted my then 9 year old son of the floor by holding by his neck.

I do think you are a genuine person so start listening to all these people and stop defending a shit situation and use your energy to improve things at that school in the interrest of the children and your job.

I remember that particular day very well when your son was throttled by the now school head you remained very calm a damm sight calmer than i would of been,.Your last few posts have been spot on but you do realise you will be labelled as having an axe to grind as i have been during this thread possibly becos of the strangling inccident. All at the school choose to ignore any critism despite it coming from so many different and very concerned parents i have finaly come to terms that i / we are pissing in the wind pushing for change at BEST so like you my son will be at REPS next term i agree totally with your earlier post ref reps its a magnificent set up im sure my son will be better there.

[pointofview]

'Throttled by the now head' - and done nothing much about it! Is this guy a thai or ferang - this school sounds out of control!

[Tony Clifton]

I'll keep this short for the sake of my blood pressure.

Last wednesday I went to pick up my boys as usual, about 3.45. When I got to the school I saw my youngest (6 years old) sat in his usual place outside the new building waiting for me. He was crying. I guessed he'd had a falling out with a friend or something and went over, rubbed him on the head and asked him what was wrong. He said his arm hurt. When I looked down I immediately noticed he had a broken arm. I couldn't believe it! Can you?

No teacher sat with him, no phone call to inform us (even though it happened at afternoon break 2 hrs previous!), no transport to hospital for xrays, nothing! NOTHING!!

When I collared his Thai classroom teacher he did a wonderful job of deflecting any responsibility and basically said it was my boys fault for not telling anyone. He said that he had taken him to the medical room and decided after twisting and pushing and pulling that it was just a bruise. When I reminded him that he wasn't a doctor and he had been extremely negligent he said, 'well, if that's what you think that's up to you.' and went to walk away.

Unbelievable!

Anyway, the bottom line is when you leave your child in the care of a supposed professional you don't expect to find them sat unattended, in pain, crying, at the front of the school with a broken arm when you go and pick them up at hometime.

Of course, the worst thing is that nothing will be done about it. When my wife bumped into another Thai teacher from the school yesterday he said that my son shouldn't be so quiet and speak up if there is something wrong. AHHH!!!!

Best summed up by a friend of mine who was present at the time - 'BUNCH OF IDIOTS!'

yes i can believe it.......everyday read and hear stories like this..........sorry dont know the answer.the problem i think is that we were brought up in different country with different values,you cant fast forward a nation(thailand) 30 years so will have to wait for it to hopefully catch up!!!

30 years from now? They`ll be 50 years behind.

You can`t make a truck out of a trailor.

[stevemiddie]

Since you seem to have some firsthand experience at the school in question, are you able to advise whether or not the "medical room" there is continuously manned by qualified medical personnel while school is in session?

There is a medical room in the new building. It has the usual anti-septics, plasters, cotton balls, headache tablets. Thats about it though.

It is not " continuously manned " to the best of my knowledge.

As far as I am aware I am the only one that is " qualified " I hold a current First Aid Certificate from the UK. For whats it worth.

Minor scrapes and bumps etc I usually deal with myself but that is only to the children in my care. Often, such as the incident with the OP,s son....I was not even aware anything had happened. We are told very little.

I would almost certainly have recognised a broken arm though and would have been able to deal with that initially. ( Had I known about it of course )

I really think this is beside the point! This boy should have been taken to hospital immediately for treatment by qualified and trained medical people not left on his own to cry for hours how irresponsible is that?? It must have been quite obvious to any NORMAL person (let alone a school teacher) that it was more serious than a cut or bruise.

These children are placed in the care of the school every day and they are RESPONSIBLE for the care of the children during school hours; this is the least any parent should be able to expect and BEST can't even do that!

How any sane parent can leave their children in the care of this school after recent incidents is beyond me.

EmCross. My post was in response to a question from another poster. Nothing more.............nothing less. It was asked if there are medical facilties there. I answered the question.

Stevemiddie,

You keep on defending BEST and since you work there I can sort of understand that.

But I am wondering when do you start to listen to all these worried parents?

"Accidents happen" is just a stupid reply </b>and then saying that you are a qualified first aider who would have recognized a broken arm immediately is to me one step to far.

You are a member of staff at BEST and as such jointly responsible for what happens to the children at the time they are at the school.

Accident do happen but it is the reaction of the staff that is important

Sorry. But what are you trying to say here? First you say my comment about " accidents happen " is stupid............then you post that " accidents happen??

and you have the basic medical knowledge to resolve these situations better than some of the others then perhaps you should start discussing this with your colleages (and perhaps the parents) and find a way for the school to react better in these situations and not excuse the school with "accidents happen".

Its a fact of life that accidents happen in pretty much any school. That does not excuse any school from its responsibilties but is a statement of fact.

And as a member of staff at BEST it might also be an idea to listen to the stories of these worried parents instead of just trying to talk wrongs right.

And how am i talking wrongs right? Please specify any quote I have made that is doing that? When posters call the school......dirty then it makes the assumption that ALL of the school is. Quite clearly the new building is not.

The new building is indeed new and therefore clean, but in the meantime the owner does not invest in gym facilities or any other facilities, the food that is served in the new part of the BEST school is just to ridiculous for words and has nothing to do with taking care of the well being of the children.

The fact is that the new building is there so that the owner can lure more paying customers.

It is not designed to make education any better or more attractive for the children.

That new building is also the building where the current head of the school lifted my then 9 year old son of the floor by holding by his neck.

I do think you are a genuine person so start listening to all these people and stop defending a shit situation

Complaints should be addressed to the Thai management. We have no influence in these matters.

and use your energy to improve things at that school in the interrest of the children and your job.

I teach P3. All of them. I have NEVER received any complaints from a childs parents about my care and teaching for them.

I currently have a boy who is streets ahead in math for ALL of his year. I brought this to the attention of others and we have embarked on an advanced program of Math for him so his abilities can be fully tested.

A month ago all the children were sitting in the hot sun listening to something or other. It was a blazing hot day. I took bottles of water out to them. At MY expense. Please do not question that i do not have the interests of the children at heart.

Foreign teachers have NO influence on the schools policies. Its been tried and failed. We no longer have a foreign principal.

Your comment about first aid qualification being a "step too far " for you is uncalled for.

I will repeat..............many of the things that happen in the OLD building go unreported to us. The first I KNEW about the OP,s son was when it was POSTED on this forum. As I have stated before...........we are not kept informed of MANY things.

I do understand some of the parents frustrations but to think we can influence the school in these matters is a non-starter.

The school does have a PTA which you are probably a member of. It is the fee payers who can influence matters.

Teachers who make waves do not last long. I,m sure you understand why

What do you want? Teachers that will try to dictate to Thai,s how to run the school ?.............Then you end up with a constant turnover of new teachers. Very unsettling for young children.

Or...........do you want teachers that still try to better the childrens educational learnings but keep their heads down from the politics of a Thai school?

Edited December 22, 2007 by stevemiddie

[Westerner]

First I would like to say that I do not have any children at BEST school. I would not let my children be educated ANYWHERE in Thailand period! However, I do know something about BEST school and that is it has approximately 1000 students. Every year/term some students leave and some new students arrive and the majority stay. This tells me that the majority of parents are satisfied with the school. There are always rumors that there will be a mass exodus - but it never happens.

[EmCross]

First I would like to say that I do not have any children at BEST school. I would not let my children be educated ANYWHERE in Thailand period! However, I do know something about BEST school and that is it has approximately 1000 students. Every year/term some students leave and some new students arrive and the majority stay. This tells me that the majority of parents are satisfied with the school. There are always rumors that there will be a mass exodus - but it never happens.

Anyone who continues to have their children 'educated' at this school in the current conditions is negligent as a parent; I know this is a strong statement but it is my opinion. If you continue to pay money to this establishment for crap education, no facilities to speak of and no concern for health or hygiene they the parents are either clueless or could not careless about their kids and now it is even unsafe!

If there is NOT a mass exodus then there should be!!

[Manchester]

First I would like to say that I do not have any children at BEST school. I would not let my children be educated ANYWHERE in Thailand period! However, I do know something about BEST school and that is it has approximately 1000 students. Every year/term some students leave and some new students arrive and the majority stay. This tells me that the majority of parents are satisfied with the school. There are always rumors that there will be a mass exodus - but it never happens.

Anyone who continues to have their children 'educated' at this school in the current conditions is negligent as a parent; I know this is a strong statement but it is my opinion. If you continue to pay money to this establishment for crap education, no facilities to speak of and no concern for health or hygiene they the parents are either clueless or could not careless about their kids and now it is even unsafe!

If there is NOT a mass exodus then there should be!!

EmCross. You had some not good experiences. That is obvious by your frequent and rambling postings.

I had two children there, both in the new building. My children are now at an International but that is because my new employer pays for that.

I was very satisfied with the level of care and standard of education my children received. I spoke to the teachers often. I have only ever heard of problems on the Anuban side.

For the parents that are constantly whining on this thread about the care the children receive............do what EMCross did.............vote with your feet and remove your children.

If ANY one picked MY child up by the neck.........my child would be out of there by now. Does the poster who reported that have no b*lls?

Sorry for the OP whose son was left unattended. I too would be furious and again, he would be out of there by now !

I personally find some of the comments on here about the teachers ...offensive and given with very little thought by parents who should know better.

Stevemiddie seems to have come into some personal attacks because he is perceived as "defending" the school.

I have read ALL the posts and yes, he defends the school against idiotic comments that

1) " the teachers don,t give a sh*t "

2) "all the school is dirty".

3) " filipino teachers etc "

I see he has defended against GENERAL comments from some quite ill-informed posters here. He and Graham taught my boys and I have no complaints. For the posters who expect farang teachers to have any say in school policy, then you are having a laugh and you have only been in Thailand for 2 minutes.

For all of the posters with your BMW,s and your two a penny Fortuners and ex-bar girl wives............change your lifestyle if you are so concerned about your child. Sell the car, the bar........get rid of the Mia Noi and send your child to another school. But you won,t.

Cost too much and you may have to DRIVE far for it.

Edited December 23, 2007 by Manchester

[Mobi]

For all of the posters with your BMW,s and your two a penny Fortuners and ex-bar girl wives............change your lifestyle if you are so concerned about your child. Sell the car, the bar........get rid of the Mia Noi and send your child to another school. But you won,t.

Cost too much and you may have to DRIVE far for it.

Don't you just love it?

A reasonably coherent and well thought out out post up this point.

Then all your prejudices, arrogance and downright unpleasantness reaches the surface.

What on earth have "BMW's. 2 a penny Fortuners, and ex- bar girl wives" got to do with a debate on the standards of a school in Pattaya?

I don't say this very often, but if you are nurturing such worrisome and uncharitable thoughts, I would suggest it is you that needs to chuck the job, and leave Thailand.

But you won't.....

Edited December 23, 2007 by Mobi