Flag Pole Stops Ball From Going In!

[Daffy D]

Ok I’m not a golfer so please forgive if I don’t know the right terms to use.

Some time ago I saw on CNN sports a golfer take a shot (think it was Tiger Woods or on a Thai course-Thai related) and the ball hit the flag pole that was in the hole but the ball did not go in.

Would this be considered a hole? After all if the flag pole was not there the ball would have gone in.

If it is not considered as a hole and cost someone the championship would the caddy or the flag pole guy be liquidated for not being there to ensure the hole was free.

Just really interested.

Daffy.

[kash]

nope, it is the golfer's sole responsible/choice if he would like the flag in or not. sometimes the ball hit the pole and goes in, other times as you describe, most of the times though - far far away :-)

Edited December 25, 2007 by kash

[Daffy D]

Really then there should be someone at the hole ready to whip out the flag pole from the start.

Can’t imagine missing a hole in one because the ball hit the pole and bounced away.

Happy New Year

Daffy.

[kash]

golf is a risky sport ;-)

[PattayaParent]

nope, it is the golfer's sole responsible/choice if he would like the flag in or not. sometimes the ball hit the pole and goes in, other times as you describe, most of the times though - far far away :-)

I thought that if the ball is on the green and you're putting and the ball hits the flag it's a 2 stroke penalty? That's why the caddy stands and holds the flag and removes it when the stroke has been made.

If it's a shot from off the green and it hits the flag then it's likely slowed or stopped a ball that was heading for the back bunker!

[xbusman]

If you are putting from on the green and the ball hits the flag it is a two shot penalty. If from off the green and ball hits flag or goes in cup and bounces out, it is not considered in the hole. If the ball hits the flag and gets caught between the cup lip and the flag, either the golfer or his designee (caddy) can remove the flag. If the ball falls in the cup, its holed. If it comes out, it is not holed. You can bend the flag until the ball drops and its considered holed but if it pops out when the flag is removes, it is not holed.

[chuckd]

If you are putting from on the green and the ball hits the flag it is a two shot penalty. If from off the green and ball hits flag or goes in cup and bounces out, it is not considered in the hole. If the ball hits the flag and gets caught between the cup lip and the flag, either the golfer or his designee (caddy) can remove the flag. If the ball falls in the cup, its holed. If it comes out, it is not holed. You can bend the flag until the ball drops and its considered holed but if it pops out when the flag is removes, it is not holed.

Very well put.

The only addition might be that if you are off the green and have the flag attended, it MUST be removed. If the flag is attended and the ball hits it, even from shots off the green, it is the same two shot penalty.

There is a rule that is applicable to those of us in our senior years. If the ball rolls over any part of the hole and does not fall in, it is deemed to have been made. Should the ball not fall, it is defying the law of gravity. Laws of nature have precedence over the rules of golf.

[Daffy D]

Oh! Dear I thought it would be a simple yes or no answer.

If there are so many regulations regarding, what seems to me anyway, a simple question I just wonder just how big the golf rule book has to be to cover all the possibilities of play.

I know you golfers take the game seriously. In a former life I would drive past a golf course on my way to work every morning and there would always be some players out there no matter what the weather.

I was particularly impressed in the winter months when dawn was just breaking there was a covering of snow and the sleet was coming horizontally.

I often wondered if they used colored balls in the snow but am reluctant to put the question now as I’m sure there must be several pages of regulations on this subject and no simple answer.

Daffy.

[xbusman]

Ball color is not regulated but ball construction is in gory detail. We used flourescent orange and lime green balls in snow, even then it was not always easy to find them when the snow was heavy and over a foot or two. That problem pales in comparison to keeping your hands warm enough not to break on impact.

The rules of golf are really not that complicated but the situations can be very complicated. I once met a lady on the PGA tour that retired from the school system at the age of 65 and picked up a copy of the rules of golf. She became completely fascinated with the subject and studied them for a few years in great detail, never bothering to ever play a round. She started to volunteer at the Memorial tournament in Ohio as a hole judge and ended up a rules judge on the tour. She was simply amazing and could quote chapter and verse for the most bizarre of circumstances. That job paid huge money too, I think she was making over 100K for about 40 weeks of work and all expenses. Pretty interesting character.

There are only 34 actual rules divided out into detailed definitions. That takes up about 30 pages in a pocket sized book. Then there is an appendix that covers local rules, definitions of things like water hazards and such, care and keeping of the course, and conditions of competition. In the front, there is a brief discussion of etiquette and definitions used in the rules.

It gets crazy complicated though, I have seen some of the tests for the PGA rules judges. Questions like: If a ball strikes a spectator rendering them unconscious with the ball under their inert form, how should the lie be played. Wish I could remember the answer to that one but I think its an unnatural hazard and the golfer is allowed to retrieve the ball and drop it within two lengths of any club without penalty.

Can be fun for those interested. My rule is that if I dont like the lie, its always a free drop. My caddies generally agree and we get on famously. I use my water retriever to measure my two lengths as it extends to about five meters and can usually get me back on the fairway.

Golf is fun if you dont take it too seriously.

[TKHaw]

quote name='Daffy D' date='2007-12-26 00:24:29' post='1726871']

Really then there should be someone at the hole ready to whip out the flag pole from the start.

Can't imagine missing a hole in one because the ball hit the pole and bounced away.

Happy New Year

Daffy.

You are correct, if the golfer wants his caddie to be at the flag and take it out, he has that option. Other than that, he plays the course like it is. Check rules 17-2, 17-3 for clarification on flagstick.

Edited December 27, 2007 by TKHaw

[PattayaParent]

xbusman - is the water retriever classed as a club? I would have thought not, only equipment?

[chuckd]

The ball retriever is not considered a club. I am not even sure it is legal to carry one in your bag.

You may use a long putter to obtain either your one club or two club relief.

Unfortunately, my life has not been blessed with a long putter so my relief is not what it could have been with a little more length in the putter department.

[xbusman]

Of course the ball retriever is a club according the ancient and accepted rules of hackers. In those rules, trees are unnatural hazards and entitle the golfer to a free drop. Caddies are allow to "gib" puts of no more than 15 feet for increased tips. Any unworthy drive is entitled to a provisional mulligan which does not count if it turns out better than the first drive. Fluffing the ball is mandatory to reduce damage to the course and improve the lie.

I have a complete copy of these rules somewhere, but generally we make them up as we go. Far more satisfying.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Ball color is not regulated but ball construction is in gory detail. We used flourescent orange and lime green balls in snow, even then it was not always easy to find them when the snow was heavy and over a foot or two. That problem pales in comparison to keeping your hands warm enough not to break on impact.

The rules of golf are really not that complicated but the situations can be very complicated. I once met a lady on the PGA tour that retired from the school system at the age of 65 and picked up a copy of the rules of golf. She became completely fascinated with the subject and studied them for a few years in great detail, never bothering to ever play a round. She started to volunteer at the Memorial tournament in Ohio as a hole judge and ended up a rules judge on the tour. She was simply amazing and could quote chapter and verse for the most bizarre of circumstances. That job paid huge money too, I think she was making over 100K for about 40 weeks of work and all expenses. Pretty interesting character.

There are only 34 actual rules divided out into detailed definitions. That takes up about 30 pages in a pocket sized book. Then there is an appendix that covers local rules, definitions of things like water hazards and such, care and keeping of the course, and conditions of competition. In the front, there is a brief discussion of etiquette and definitions used in the rules.

It gets crazy complicated though, I have seen some of the tests for the PGA rules judges. Questions like: If a ball strikes a spectator rendering them unconscious with the ball under their inert form, how should the lie be played. Wish I could remember the answer to that one but I think its an unnatural hazard and the golfer is allowed to retrieve the ball and drop it within two lengths of any club without penalty.

Can be fun for those interested. My rule is that if I dont like the lie, its always a free drop. My caddies generally agree and we get on famously. I use my water retriever to measure my two lengths as it extends to about five meters and can usually get me back on the fairway.

Golf is fun if you dont take it too seriously.

A hole judge ! Where can one apply for such an interesting job.

[xbusman]

Well she got the job by volunteering for a few years, started out at the Memorial, worked a few others as a volunteer, got to know the tour directors and was very suited both temperamentally and skills wise so they took her on full time. One thing you have to remember about that job, almost every call means splitting a fine hair in a grey area, and then being able to face down the likes of Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson. They know the rules pretty well also and can put up a fine defense. Retired School teachers and Policemen work well in those in positions for obvious reasons.

She mentioned that she attended classes regularly for professional skills, I think they might have been at PGA headquarters which I believe to be in New Jersey somewheres. Anyway, sharpen up your resume and work some local tournaments and I would be pretty sure the PGA needs volunteers for the Asian leg. All great journeys start with but a single step.

[thaihome]

Of course the ball retriever is a club according the ancient and accepted rules of hackers. In those rules, trees are unnatural hazards and entitle the golfer to a free drop. Caddies are allow to "gib" puts of no more than 15 feet for increased tips. Any unworthy drive is entitled to a provisional mulligan which does not count if it turns out better than the first drive. Fluffing the ball is mandatory to reduce damage to the course and improve the lie.

I have a complete copy of these rules somewhere, but generally we make them up as we go. Far more satisfying.

Losing the ball in water hazard is penalty enough, a stroke is just ridiculous.

Best list I have ever seen is The Official Exceptions to the Rules of Golf

TH

[TKHaw]

A ball retriever is not considered to be a "club" according to the definition in The Rules of Golf 2007-2008.

Appendix II No. 1 CLUBS

A club is an implement designed to use for striking the ball and generally comes in three forms: woods, irons and putters distniguised by shape and intended use.

It goes on from here.......

Thus, it would seem that being a retreiver does not have any intended use to strike the ball and cannot even be used on a ball in play, there is no reason to think of it as a club. It would be an accessory.

TK

Of course the ball retriever is a club according the ancient and accepted rules of hackers. In those rules, trees are unnatural hazards and entitle the golfer to a free drop. Caddies are allow to "gib" puts of no more than 15 feet for increased tips. Any unworthy drive is entitled to a provisional mulligan which does not count if it turns out better than the first drive. Fluffing the ball is mandatory to reduce damage to the course and improve the lie.

I have a complete copy of these rules somewhere, but generally we make them up as we go. Far more satisfying.

Losing the ball in water hazard is penalty enough, a stroke is just ridiculous.

Best list I have ever seen is The Official Exceptions to the Rules of Golf

TH

[thaihome]

A ball retriever is not considered to be a "club" according to the definition in The Rules of Golf 2007-2008.

Appendix II No. 1 CLUBS

A club is an implement designed to use for striking the ball and generally comes in three forms: woods, irons and putters distniguised by shape and intended use.

It goes on from here.......

Thus, it would seem that being a retreiver does not have any intended use to strike the ball and cannot even be used on a ball in play, there is no reason to think of it as a club. It would be an accessory.

TK

Of course the ball retriever is a club according the ancient and accepted rules of hackers. In those rules, trees are unnatural hazards and entitle the golfer to a free drop. Caddies are allow to "gib" puts of no more than 15 feet for increased tips. Any unworthy drive is entitled to a provisional mulligan which does not count if it turns out better than the first drive. Fluffing the ball is mandatory to reduce damage to the course and improve the lie.

I have a complete copy of these rules somewhere, but generally we make them up as we go. Far more satisfying.

Losing the ball in water hazard is penalty enough, a stroke is just ridiculous.

Best list I have ever seen is The Official Exceptions to the Rules of Golf

TH

Well, in Asian golf, the retriever is certainly not a club, as that is guy that goes ahead of you and is waiting in the water so if you hit it in the water, he immediately dives and gets if for you. Some courses have designated retrievers at water hazards.

The alligators at Bangkok Sports Club have been known to be very busy when I’m playing.

TH

[Daffy D]

This is really an interesting subject and the job of Hole Judge should interest some of those who are looking for business opportunities, very little outlay and great returns.

The ball hitting a spectator has always seemed a real possibility as in big tournaments the public seem to be very close to the action and a slip of club on ball at full swing could be serious. But I see they have it covered in the rule book.

I thought I could let the subject go but it keeps popping up so I got to ask.

As I understand it the player can send his caddy to the hole at any time to take out the flag, so a good player would want his caddy to be at the hole as he tee’s off (starts) incase he gets a hole in one, yet at the same time he needs the caddy to carry his clubs and show him which club to use.

So the question is can anybody, a spectator, take out the pole if it looks like the ball is going to hit it? Or to be even more devious a spectator put the pole in the hole if he supports the other guy.

Sill curious

Daffy.

[thaihome]

If you are putting from on the green and the ball hits the flag it is a two shot penalty. If from off the green and ball hits flag or goes in cup and bounces out, it is not considered in the hole. If the ball hits the flag and gets caught between the cup lip and the flag, either the golfer or his designee (caddy) can remove the flag. If the ball falls in the cup, its holed. If it comes out, it is not holed. You can bend the flag until the ball drops and its considered holed but if it pops out when the flag is removes, it is not holed.

Very well put.

The only addition might be that if you are off the green and have the flag attended, it MUST be removed. If the flag is attended and the ball hits it, even from shots off the green, it is the same two shot penalty.

...

I was always under the impression (which could be wrong) that you could not attend the flag for a shot off the green. It was either in or out before the shot was taken. I have never seen a flag attended in a professional tournament for a shot off the green, though they do often have the caddy pull it first.

That may be what you are saying in that if it is attended the ball cannot hit it, but if it not attended then the ball can hit the flag with no penalty.

TH

[cheshiremusicman]

This is really an interesting subject and the job of Hole Judge should interest some of those who are looking for business opportunities, very little outlay and great returns.

The ball hitting a spectator has always seemed a real possibility as in big tournaments the public seem to be very close to the action and a slip of club on ball at full swing could be serious. But I see they have it covered in the rule book.

I thought I could let the subject go but it keeps popping up so I got to ask.

As I understand it the player can send his caddy to the hole at any time to take out the flag, so a good player would want his caddy to be at the hole as he tee’s off (starts) incase he gets a hole in one, yet at the same time he needs the caddy to carry his clubs and show him which club to use.

So the question is can anybody, a spectator, take out the pole if it looks like the ball is going to hit it? Or to be even more devious a spectator put the pole in the hole if he supports the other guy.

Sill curious

Daffy.

Daffy. The only time I have ever got a hole in one was with the 'Pin' or 'Flagstick' in the hole on a par three. I think that it would have dropped in the hole even if the 'flagstick' had not been in the hole, but sometimes you are glad that it IS in the hole, as it can often stop a ball from going a lot further than you intended. I personally have never seen a caddy remove a 'Flagstick' when a player has been playing from well off the green; by that I mean a distance of say 30 metres from the hole.

To quote one of the great's of the game - Arnold Palmer.

"Golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated. It satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same time rewarding and maddening - It is without a doubt the greatest game mankind has ever invented." I will personally second this statement - once if grabs you - boy does it grab you!

[chuckd]

If you are putting from on the green and the ball hits the flag it is a two shot penalty. If from off the green and ball hits flag or goes in cup and bounces out, it is not considered in the hole. If the ball hits the flag and gets caught between the cup lip and the flag, either the golfer or his designee (caddy) can remove the flag. If the ball falls in the cup, its holed. If it comes out, it is not holed. You can bend the flag until the ball drops and its considered holed but if it pops out when the flag is removes, it is not holed.

Very well put.

The only addition might be that if you are off the green and have the flag attended, it MUST be removed. If the flag is attended and the ball hits it, even from shots off the green, it is the same two shot penalty.

...

I was always under the impression (which could be wrong) that you could not attend the flag for a shot off the green. It was either in or out before the shot was taken. I have never seen a flag attended in a professional tournament for a shot off the green, though they do often have the caddy pull it first.

That may be what you are saying in that if it is attended the ball cannot hit it, but if it not attended then the ball can hit the flag with no penalty.

TH

It is perfectly legal for the flag stick to be attended when you are off the green. I often have it done since it seems to help with my depth perception to have my caddy near the hole. It is common practice.

What I said is, IF the flag is attended by your caddy and you subsequently hit it, there is a two stroke penalty. If it is NOT attended, you may hit the flag without penalty if your shot originated from off the green. If your shot originated on the green, there is a penalty if you hit the flag, whether attended or not.

[Daffy D]

[/quote

What I said is, IF the flag is attended by your caddy and you subsequently hit it, there is a two stroke penalty. If it is NOT attended, you may hit the flag without penalty if your shot originated from off the green. If your shot originated on the green, there is a penalty if you hit the flag, whether attended or not.

Lets talk about engineering I understand that.

Daffy.