Karma

[jamesc2000]

I am too pragmatic to even understand what that means. I mean walking around Thailand with no shirt on my back, no money, no Visa, no fake designer watch...I just can't really relate to this

Another very good point! Let me take it up from there!

If you lost a real designer watch that say cost $10, 000, I am sure you will feel bad as anyone naturally would!

But if you lost your fake designer watch then you will feel a little bad but maybe not so much especially if you didn’t pay too much for it.

The person you and me are just like the fake watch! You, me, our ego, our faults, our minds, our wonderful sense of humour, our good looks, not to mention modesty, everything about us is not real! But it sure does feel real!

So if you don’t feel too bad about losing a fake watch, how much do feel about losing our fake selves/ego/minds/faults/looks/hair/pride?

[chownah]

I don't think that the Buddha advises that we should not own anything. I think that the Buddha advises that our concept of ownership is an illusion.....there is no ownership....where is it?...does ownership imprint some special mark onto that which is owned?....if someone steals your umbrella do you still own it?...even 50 years later do you still own it?....did the native americans own the land before the europeans invaded?...if so then how did the ownership get transfered?....some was by paperwork and some was by murder?...if native americans were murdered and their land taken does this mean that they still own it?

There is no ownership...its just an illusion. "Control" is probably a better word than "ownership"....do you own a dog?....do you control a dog?...do you own your brain?...can you control your brain?...

Do you own your fingernails...the clippings? If you chew gum and you spit it out do you still own it? You own your kidneys of course...and their contents too I suppose...when you void your bladder do you till own that material...that water. Someday a molecule of that water will evaporate and then fall as rain and be drunk by someone else...do you then own a part of them?

Who owns the sunshine striking your skin? Do you own your emotions? Do you own the tears you cried as a child?

Chownah

Edited January 2, 2008 by chownah

[jamesc2000]

I don't think that the Buddha advises that we should not own anything. I think that the Buddha advises that our concept of ownership is an illusion.....there is no ownership....where is it?...does ownership imprint some special mark onto that which is owned?....if someone steals your umbrella do you still own it?...even 50 years later do you still own it?....did the native americans own the land before the europeans invaded?...if so then how did the ownership get transfered?....some was by paperwork and some was by murder?...if native americans were murdered and their land taken does this mean that they still own it?

There is no ownership...its just an illusion. "Control" is probably a better word than "ownership"....do you own a dog?....do you control a dog?...do you own your brain?...can you control your brain?...

Do you own your fingernails...the clippings? If you chew gum and you spit it out do you still own it? You own your kidneys of course...and their contents too I suppose...when you void your bladder do you till own that material...that water. Someday a molecule of that water will evaporate and then fall as rain and be drunk by someone else...do you then own a part of them?

Who owns the sunshine striking your skin? Do you own your emotions? Do you own the tears you cried as a child?

Chownah

I agree with everything you say except that I do own my own hair!

I even have the receipt to prove it! Just kidding!

Everyone takes Buddhism so seriously but I heard that Buddha was a happy and merry person and he wasn't like a serious and stern monk but was the humorous and approachable type!

Correct me if I am wrong!

[Brucenkhamen]

Can you inherit bad kamma your family or others?

You can live an exemplary life but you may suffer as a result of your fathers actions.

If you father does dumb things and as a result ends up poor then guess what, you're going to grow up in a poor household. If he learns from his mistakes and passes on his knowledge then you'll do better than he did, otherwise you may not have the best of starts in life.

Likewise if he ends up rich.

I think that's the beginning and end of it, I don't think there is ever any issue of him transferring kamma to you in the form of some sort of spiritual DNA.

Nations and groups of people inherit the results of their actions in just the same way as individuals do. If a nation goes to war it gets the results of that action, if a nation exploits another it gets the results of that.

Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers…

Exodus 34:7 (The Lord visits) …the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

I think you might be mixing up your religions here, I don't think the Old Testament has a lot to say about kamma, it's more a case of if you don't do what you are told the big boss will punish you.

Edited January 2, 2008 by Brucenkhamen

[Brucenkhamen]

Only through engaging with my greater self (buddhahood) could I see the way my karma had shaped the architecture of my ego. Slowly I was able to change these behavioural patterns.

If I had said that self is illusion, arrogance is illusion and fear is illusion, I would probably still be sneering at people’s haircuts to this day :-)

So yes, a concept of self and Buddhist practice have got me a long way.

Sounds like a dualistic approach to the purification of the mind. Nothing wrong with that as long as you know it for what it is, a way of relating to reality but not necessarily reality itself.

I don't believe the Buddha ever taught the self is an illusion as you say here, I think he taught that there is no distinct and seperate self. The way I see it is he didn't say the leaves are an illusion, he said the leaves have no distinct and seperate existance from the tree as a whole.

So as far as you friends with the strange haircuts if you see that you are part of the same tree as them then the barriers between you are broken and you have the opportunity to live in harmony.

So I think seeing non-self in this way will get you a lot further than the self has thus far.

[rockyysdt]

Can you inherit bad kamma your family or others?

You can live an exemplary life but you may suffer as a result of your fathers actions.

Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers…

Exodus 34:7 (The Lord visits) …the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

"Can you inherit bad kamma your family or others?

You can live an exemplary life but you may suffer as a result of your fathers actions."

Are these Buddhist beliefs or just yours?

So if you had 9 brothers and sisters, does it mean you will only suffer a tenth of the bad karma?

If you had a father and a step father, do you get the bad karma from both or just your natural father?

How about good karma? Will you get good karma from you father and grandfathers too?

You quote the prophet Isaiah and the book of Exodus in a Buddhist forum, they believe in Buddhism too?

Hi James.

These are not my beliefs. These are Christian scripture. As they are part of the world we live in, many can suffer as a result of them.

The interpretation of religious text and how you act on it can result in bad kamma and or meet out suffering as a result of previous kamma.

I was curious as to how the kamma of others can affect a third person and used the scripture to illustrate this.

Also the laws of kamma would affect Buddhists and non Buddhists alike.

Your point about suffering a fraction of the bad kamma as the result of a bad deed committed by ones father due to many sons involved is interesting.

I would imagine that each of ones brothers independently acted on a bad deed, perhaps in a former life, and as a result all were born to the same father. As all are to be slaughtered, they all must have all committed a similar bad deed.

Which leads me to another question:

When you suffer as a result of bad kamma, is it one for one, or can you commit many minor bad deeds and then reap one large punishment?

Edited January 3, 2008 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Isaiah 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers…

Exodus 34:7 (The Lord visits) …the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

I think you might be mixing up your religions here, I don't think the Old Testament has a lot to say about kamma, it's more a case of if you don't do what you are told the big boss will punish you.

Hi Bruce.

It was my way of illustrating two ways we can suffer or be punished in the world we live in through inheritance. Just wondered how that tied in with kamma.

I think you answered on another post and through my interpretation of your answer, each brother committed a bad deed in a former life and all just happened to end up with the same father and each will receive their punishment, in this case slaughter.

I wasn't aware of kamma as a result of association with ones country.

If you were born in the U.S.A. and benefit from your countries exploitation of poorer nations, are you accumulating bad kamma as a result, and is this due to earlier indiscretions on your part?

When it's payback time, can your bad kamma ledger increase rather than receive actual punishment?

Example:

1. I lived in 1866 and slaughtered many.

2. I reincarnate in the U.S.A and live an exemplary life, but as I live in an exploitative country my bad kamma automatically increases.

My previous bad kamma appears to have punished me by selecting the U.S. as my place of birth.

Was I born in the U.S.A. because of former bad kamma?

Being there I don't have to do anything bad but my negative kamma starts metering just being there.

If kamma by association is true, one may never remove its accumulation through an ascetic life.

Which country can I safely live in?

By the time I realize and act, has my accumulation been too extensive?

The U.S. is capable of many negative deeds in a very short time.

My country also trades with the U.S.

Edited January 3, 2008 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

Hi Bruce....

I'm afraid most if not all of these questions are "how many angels can you balance on a pinhead" type speculation, it might be fun and distracting but it serves no purpose in gaining freedom from the cycle of suffering, which is the purpose of the Buddhas teaching.

Now whenever the Buddha was faced with such questions he generally abstained from answering them, and for good reason as they lead nowhere. The Buddha said that though had knowledge as large as a forest he only taught a handful of leaves, as this is all you need to know to gain liberation.

As far as Kamma goes I don't think it is an important part of Buddhism, I think he mostly commented on it because that was the prevalent belief of the day. The Buddha taught a natural law of intentions lead to actions and actions lead to results, that's all you need to know on the topic... done and dusted.

The populist view of Kamma however is more Huindu meets Shirley Maclaine, even a lot of experienced Buddhist practitioners are tainted by it to some degree. It's the idea that kamma is like some spiritual sticky stuff that sticks to your soul through multiple lifetimes, I don't think it's the real deal but it's harmless if not taken too seriously.

As for most of your questions I'll abstain from attempting to answer them, rather suggest you follow the Buddhas teaching and learn the reality of it for yourself. Just to clarify a couple of points...

I think you answered on another post and through my interpretation of your answer, each brother committed a bad deed in a former life and all just happened to end up with the same father and each will receive their punishment, in this case slaughter.

I don't recall this, you might be confusing me with someone else.

I wasn't aware of kamma as a result of association with ones country.

If you were born in the U.S.A. and benefit from your countries exploitation of poorer nations, are you accumulating bad kamma as a result, and is this due to earlier indiscretions on your part?

When it's payback time, can your bad kamma ledger increase rather than receive actual punishment?

Just to clarify as I introduced the concept. If you use the US as an example citizens of the US currently experience a heightened security and sense of fear, even peace loving Buddhists who would love to live in peace with the rest of the world. Whether the actions that lead to these results were right or wrong I don't care to speculate but currently anyone with a north american accent is aware of it while travelling. It's just an example of how a group of people experience the results of the actions of that group.

[jamesc2000]

As far as Kamma goes I don't think it is an important part of Buddhism, I think he mostly commented on it because that was the prevalent belief of the day. The Buddha taught a natural law of intentions lead to actions and actions lead to results, that's all you need to know on the topic... done and dusted.

I think this is quite true really. If people understand the concept of suffering and more importantly how it can be eliminated then there will be no more suffering.

If no suffering then good karma and bad karma doesn't affect anything!

Anyway what is good or bad karma? Born in US is good karma and born in Thailand is bad karma or is it the reverse?

Born rich is good karma and born poor is bad karma?

Rich daddy is good karma and poor dad is bad karma?

Handsome is good karma and ugly is bad karma?

If we differentiate like this, all I know is, there will be a lot of suffering!

Maybe it's the differentiation that causes the suffering!

[jamesc2000]

Buddha’s father was a king, good karma, he was rich and powerful, good karma, Buddha was a prince, good karma, Buddha had everything, great food, lovely ladies, nice palace, power, money , all fantastic karma.

Then he gives it all up, shaves his hair and loses his good looks, bad karma, gives up power, possessions, begs for food, owns nothing, bad karma!

Buddha started with everything and ended with nothing!

Aren’t most people working in the opposite direction?

And aren’t most people hoping they have “good” karma to take them there quicker?

[ade100]

To me, karma is central to Buddhism and changing karma is central to Buddhist practice.

Bad karma is not easy to define but I think of it as anything that makes us suffer, blocks us from living a fulfilling life and prevents us from creating value for other people.

Its not that being ugly is bad karma or handsome good karma. I know people who are both handsome and ugly but who are suffering a lot. It is bad karma if you don’t like the way you look, feel uncomfortable, find that looks prevent you from having fulfilling relationships, etc.

[jamesc2000]

I am sure you know that I really do not think being good looking as good karma and not good looking as bad karma!

I am not so sure discomfort and suffering are bad karma!

I put my hand in hot water and because of discomfort immediately pull it out to prevent further injury!

So discomfort makes us react and do something! When we are too comfortable we sometimes become lazy and do not make any effort to make changes.

I am not so sure but is the objective of people not to be re-incarnated or do people look forward to keep coming back?

If life is great, maybe people will not want to not come back?

Doesn't Buddhism help us not to suffer and teaches us how not to come back?

Suffering is an optional in life and you can choose the option of not to suffer in life!

I am sorry to hear that some of your friends are suffering, you can help them stop their suffering.

[Brucenkhamen]

I think this is quite true really. If people understand the concept of suffering and more importantly how it can be eliminated then there will be no more suffering.

If no suffering then good karma and bad karma doesn't affect anything!...

Maybe it's the differentiation that causes the suffering!

Well said, I think you've nailed it.

To me, karma is central to Buddhism and changing karma is central to Buddhist practice.

Bad karma is not easy to define but I think of it as anything that makes us suffer, blocks us from living a fulfilling life and prevents us from creating value for other people.

You wouldn't be Thai by any chance?

I would say you are throwing away the icecream and eating the cone.

I take the life of the Buddha as an example. As a rich man he had the opportunity to secure good future kamma by good works but instead he gave it all up to find the truth of it all.

The significance of the Buddhas teaching is that he found a way to be free of the cycle of good kamma and bad kamma, the cycle of suffering and rebirth.

Now if you focus on improving your kamma and have a better life in the short term where does that get you? One day it's going to cycle downwards again and when it does maybe your opportunity to eat the icecream has gone, for a while.

Throughout my Buddhist practice I've given little thought to improving my kamma, rather I've focussed on improving my awareness, equanimity, and wisdom. I'd rather experience bad kamma and have the opportunity to learn from it than good kamma and make no progress towards my goal. Of course dana is an important pre-requisite to this but it's aim is primarily to release you from attachment, not create good kamma.

I see the whole merit making industry we see in Thailand as spiritual materialism, just trying to buy your way into heaven, not what he Buddha taught.

Edited January 3, 2008 by Brucenkhamen

[ade100]

I am sure you know that I really do not think being good looking as good karma and not good looking as bad karma!

I am not so sure discomfort and suffering are bad karma!

I put my hand in hot water and because of discomfort immediately pull it out to prevent further injury!

So discomfort makes us react and do something! When we are too comfortable we sometimes become lazy and do not make any effort to make changes.

I am not so sure but is the objective of people not to be re-incarnated or do people look forward to keep coming back?

If life is great, maybe people will not want to not come back?

Doesn't Buddhism help us not to suffer and teaches us how not to come back?

Suffering is an optional in life and you can choose the option of not to suffer in life!

I am sorry to hear that some of your friends are suffering, you can help them stop their suffering.

Interesting. I hadn't thought so much about the positive side of suffering. I can see, yes it can provide us with motivation to change. So just so long as we do change, its fine. But presumably you wouldn't want to keep your hand in that hot water for too long :-)

So identifying a cause of suffering (say a tendency towards anger or impatience or lack of self respect) and changing it can be a source of great joy. But to maintain those cycles of anger, impatience or lack of self respect cannot be advisable. Hence my point about the importance of changing karma or one's negative behavioural patterns.

As to your other point. In the buddhist school that I practice (Nichiren Buddhism) we are not taught that we ever escape the cycle of life and death just that we can escape the suffering associated with it. (I know many other schools talk about reaching Nirvana and not being reborn again).

[jamesc2000]

I am really ignorant about the different schools of Buddhism! Actually I am also quite ignorant about Buddhism!

So which school did Buddha practise?

And if you have to keep getting reborn, does Buddha also have to keep getting reborn?

[rockyysdt]

I am sure you know that I really do not think being good looking as good karma and not good looking as bad karma!

I am not so sure discomfort and suffering are bad karma!

I put my hand in hot water and because of discomfort immediately pull it out to prevent further injury!

A. So discomfort makes us react and do something! When we are too comfortable we sometimes become lazy and do not make any effort to make changes.

B. I am not so sure but is the objective of people not to be re-incarnated or do people look forward to keep coming back?

If life is great, maybe people will not want to not come back?

Doesn't Buddhism help us not to suffer and teaches us how not to come back?

Suffering is an optional in life and you can choose the option of not to suffer in life!

I am sorry to hear that some of your friends are suffering, you can help them stop their suffering.

Hi James.

On these points I'm prompted to write:

A. I suspect the way we suffer in our lives helps to shape us towards our lifes purpose and can help us to choose a path towards self realisation. Why do any of us turn to this path? Is it the ego wanting more than the thought of eternal death, or have some of us suffered and we are looking for escape? Why have you and others chosen this path? Why do the majority think we are religious nuts?

B. I thought, when we re incarnate, it involves the part of us which we are not in touch with. The part of us which is eternal but eludes our ego. The part we reunite with upon self realization. The part of us which we are conscious of is our ego or mask. The ego will disappear upon death and will not reincarnate. The I we are conscious of is an illusion and will expire when we die.

So in reality if we cling to the I, and never self realise we (our egos) die forever.

Our eternal self, which most of us (ego) will never see (we might in a million lifetimes), will reincarnate or reunite with infinity.

Does this mean that in reality we are going to die eternally because most of us will only ever know our ego and will not self realize?

Edited January 4, 2008 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

So identifying a cause of suffering (say a tendency towards anger or impatience or lack of self respect) and changing it can be a source of great joy. But to maintain those cycles of anger, impatience or lack of self respect cannot be advisable. Hence my point about the importance of changing karma or one's negative behavioural patterns.

It sounds like we are talking about much the same thing, just phrasing it differently. When I hear someone use the word kamma a tad too much I think they are too concerned about the future, wheras Buddhism is about being fully here in the present moment.

So you do the right thing now, not because of possible future rewards, but because it is the right thing to do right now and because it will hopefully create the tendency to do right in future.

I don't see changing ones negative behavioural patterns as changing ones kamma, I see it as changing ones negative behavioural patterns. The future results that come from that (you can say kamma if you like) can only be good but that's a by-product of the purification of your mind, not the main event.

[ade100]

So identifying a cause of suffering (say a tendency towards anger or impatience or lack of self respect) and changing it can be a source of great joy. But to maintain those cycles of anger, impatience or lack of self respect cannot be advisable. Hence my point about the importance of changing karma or one's negative behavioural patterns.

It sounds like we are talking about much the same thing, just phrasing it differently. When I hear someone use the word kamma a tad too much I think they are too concerned about the future, wheras Buddhism is about being fully here in the present moment.

So you do the right thing now, not because of possible future rewards, but because it is the right thing to do right now and because it will hopefully create the tendency to do right in future.

I don't see changing ones negative behavioural patterns as changing ones kamma, I see it as changing ones negative behavioural patterns. The future results that come from that (you can say kamma if you like) can only be good but that's a by-product of the purification of your mind, not the main event.

OK, I think I understand your point about karma and the ice cream analogy you made earlier. Before I started the Buddhism that I practice now, I tried some other practices that focussed on calming the mind. It just didn’t work for me.

The reason I liken karma to “negative behavioural patterns” is this: When people discuss karma it normally involves talk about killing people or committing evil deeds and them coming back. Well this is fine but in our daily lives (assuming we don’t spend most of our waking hours killing people) I believe karma is much more subtle.

The way I behave with my friends, my family, my choice of clothes, the way I perform in the work place, etc. are all a consequence and a cause for karma. To me, changing karma is key to living a happy, fulfilling life.

[Brucenkhamen]

The reason I liken karma to “negative behavioural patterns” is this: When people discuss karma it normally involves talk about killing people or committing evil deeds and them coming back. Well this is fine but in our daily lives (assuming we don’t spend most of our waking hours killing people) I believe karma is much more subtle.

The way I behave with my friends, my family, my choice of clothes, the way I perform in the work place, etc. are all a consequence and a cause for karma. To me, changing karma is key to living a happy, fulfilling life.

The vast majority of people don't kill other people, and don't do evil things.

You are right, in terms of the law of kamma; intentions lead to actions lead to results, nothing is insignificant. Every action has a result whether you see it or not, every result was caused by an action whether you see it or not. Nothing happens in a vacuum, every wave makes ripples no matter how small.

So if you are improving your actions and getting better results then that's worthwhile, it's never wasted. If that's all you ever do I still think it's eating the cone, but if that seems to be the right practice right now then that's good.

[AYJAYDEE]

i believe all CONSCIOUS thoughts and deeds do

This discussion started in another string on Western Buddhists:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=104645

As the discussion we were having was off topic but very interesting, I thought it best to start a new thread.

The question is: do all thoughts, words and actions create karma?

I am of the opinion that they do. I would say we can't so much as make a phone call, drive to work or read the newspaper without creating karma.

Some possible examples of non-karma generating actions have been put forward:

"Neutral actions" like going to the supermarket (chutai)

The actions of the enlightened (chownah)

An unintentional action like treading on someone's toe (ade100)

So what do you think? Is creating karma a part of every day life or not? Can we do things without creating karma?

[jamesc2000]

If you were going to die tomorrow then I guess you wouldn’t worry to much about saving money today because you cannot take it with you when you are gone.

Something you can take with you to your next life is good karma. So I can imagine people doing lots of good work or deeds so that they have lots of merit and can have a great life when they are reborn.

It seems like saving up for a big pay day. But what if there was no pay out would people still save?

I keep reading that karma is created by intention. So if people do good things to get merit so that they have a good life next time, isn’t that act a selfish act for someone’s own gain?

Surely people should do good things because it’s the right thing to do not for a reward?

Doing something for a payout sounds like a business transaction.

Doing good things to get to get good karma to get a good next life doesn’t sound like Buddhism to me.

It sounds like the opposite, attaching our self to the material world.

I could be wrong, please correct if you see things differently.

[Brucenkhamen]

If you were going to die tomorrow then I guess you wouldn’t worry to much about saving money today because you cannot take it with you when you are gone.

Something you can take with you to your next life is good karma. So I can imagine people doing lots of good work or deeds so that they have lots of merit and can have a great life when they are reborn.

It seems like saving up for a big pay day. But what if there was no pay out would people still save?

I keep reading that karma is created by intention. So if people do good things to get merit so that they have a good life next time, isn’t that act a selfish act for someone’s own gain?

Surely people should do good things because it’s the right thing to do not for a reward?

Doing something for a payout sounds like a business transaction.

Doing good things to get to get good karma to get a good next life doesn’t sound like Buddhism to me.

It sounds like the opposite, attaching our self to the material world.

I could be wrong, please correct if you see things differently.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Saving up enough points so you can get to the next level sounds more like a video game than the Buddhas teaching.

The Buddha taught about being fully present in the present moment and gaining freedom from the cycle of suffering.

A lot of people don't seem to get it though, prefer to throw away the icecream and eat the cone.

[ade100]

If you were going to die tomorrow then I guess you wouldn't worry to much about saving money today because you cannot take it with you when you are gone.

Something you can take with you to your next life is good karma. So I can imagine people doing lots of good work or deeds so that they have lots of merit and can have a great life when they are reborn.

It seems like saving up for a big pay day. But what if there was no pay out would people still save?

I keep reading that karma is created by intention. So if people do good things to get merit so that they have a good life next time, isn't that act a selfish act for someone's own gain?

Surely people should do good things because it's the right thing to do not for a reward?

Doing something for a payout sounds like a business transaction.

Doing good things to get to get good karma to get a good next life doesn't sound like Buddhism to me.

It sounds like the opposite, attaching our self to the material world.

I could be wrong, please correct if you see things differently.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Saving up enough points so you can get to the next level sounds more like a video game than the Buddhas teaching.

The Buddha taught about being fully present in the present moment and gaining freedom from the cycle of suffering.

A lot of people don't seem to get it though, prefer to throw away the icecream and eat the cone.

As a dedicated ice cream cone eater I have a slightly different perspective on this. I agree that doing good deads to score little browny points is not really in the spirit of Buddhism. However if I need help and someone helps me, I am glad of the help and probably don't care so much why they did it. Similarly if a governement is working tirelessly for the good of its people and not for its own greed or power trip, I am happy with the governement. I don't care if they are doing it to improve their karma.

Personally speaking - trying to be helpful to people just feels right. However when it comes to, say, being creative with my tax return I might be tempted but buddhism has taught me that if I cheat I will be cheated, so I don't do it. (Its a very annoying religion sometimes :-))

[Kna]

Karma = กรรม

กรรม means action (การกระทำ)

you reap what you saw and that's the rules, for example.... If you eat a meal the only one who will get full are you.

but if we eat together then we'll get full together, right?

now replace 'eat meal' with 'making karma'......

that'll explain why ppl feel the same thing (get the same karma) in Plus's post.

The same rule apply to the reason why some birth within rich/poor family. It's because you did some karma together in your past life be it good or bad.

We all re-incarnated again and again because of our karma, our own desire has no says in it's matter. We born again beause someone owe us something or we owe something to someone. for example, Have you seen a son who's born in the rich family and destroy all the family's fortune in his generation? Have you seen a son who's born in the poor family who made a lot of fortune in his generation? a son who's always made their parent grieve with his every action? a son who take care of his old parent untill they passed away? It's all about karma.

Now let's see how karma works....

It's all about our intention. let me give you and example.

the 1st sila is 'ปาณาติปาตา เวรมณี ' (refrain from killing or take someone live)

for someone who want to make bad karma form killing something there must do all of this....

1. you want to kill it. มีเจตนาฆ่า

2. it lives. สัตว์ที่จะฆ่ามีชีวิต

3. you know it lives. รู้ว่าสัตว์นั้นมีชีวิต

4. you take action to take it's life. พยายามทำการนั้น

5. it's dead because of that action. สัตว์นั้นตายด้วยความพยายามนั้น

To make a bad karma you need to have an intention to kill it. if you have no intention to kill it then it's not bad karma.

And remember the goal of Buddha's teaching is to stop the suffering in life and remove oneself from the karma's circle. not to make merit and rebirth again and again into the better life!!!

Any now you ask "If making merit won't let you reach nippana why make merit then?"

Well, from the Buddha's teaching only human can reach Nippana and the karma you did in this life will decide what you will reborn in the next life. so it's important to make a good karma to ensure you'll be reborn into human again to reach your goal in the next life.

and since merit is part of karma to so it's depend on your intention. if you make merit with selfish intention then the merit you got is very litle because it's not made by a good intention to do good.

Have you ever heard of the story of Wat Kanikapol (วัดคณิกาผล)

here's the story (in Thai)

ในสมัยเมื่อครั้งสมเด็จพระนั่งเกล้าฯ ทรงได้ครองแผ่นดินสยามอยู่นั้น มีหญิงคนหนึ่งที่ชาวบ้านเรียกว่า

ยายคุณท้าวแฟง หรือบางครั้งก็เรียกว่า ยายแฟง เฉย ๆ ยายคุณท้าวแฟงนี้มีอาชีพเก็บตลาดเอาผลกำไร

รวมทั้งเป็นแม่เล้าเจ้าของซ่องนางโลมด้วย

ยายแฟงนั้นแกรู้ว่า ในหลวงทรงโปรดการทำบุญสร้างวัดแกจึงได้ทำการสร้างวัดด้วยเงินรายได้ของแกขึ้นมา

เพื่อต้องการให้สดุดสายพระเนตรของพระเจ้าแผ่นดินกับเขาด้วยเหมือนกัน ที่ตรอกแฟง

ในแหล่งธุรกิจของพระนครสมัยนั้น พวกชาวบ้านจึงเรียกกันว่า " วัดใหม่ยายแฟง " เมื่อสร้างเสร็จแล้ว

แกก็ได้ทูลขอพระราชทานนามของวัดนั้น ทรงโปรดพระราชทานนามของวัดนั้นว่า

" วัดคณิกาผล " อันแปลตรงตัวได้ว่า วัดที่เป็นผลได้มาจากหญิงโลมเมือง

เพราะรายได้หลักของยายแฟงนั้นก็คือได้จากการเป็นแม่เล้า เจ้าโสเภณี

ในการสมโภชน์วัด ยายแฟงได้ไปนิมนต์สมเด็จพุฒาจารย์ ( โต พฺรหฺมรังสี )

ซึ่งสมัยนั้นสมเด็จฯ ท่านยังไม่มีสมณศักดิ์ คงเป็นเพียงแค่มหาโต พระมหาบาเรียนธรรมดาเท่านั้นให้มาเทศน์ฉลอง

โดยมีความปรารถนาจะให้ท่านได้สรรเสริญผลบุญของตนต่อหน้าชุมชน แต่ผลก็ไม่ได้เป็นดังใจของยายแฟง

เพราะพระมหาโต ท่านกลับเทศน์บอกแก่เจ้าภาพว่า ในการที่เจ้าภาพได้จัดการทำบุญเช่นนี้นั้น

เป็นการทำบุญที่มีเบื้องหลังอยู่หลายประการ เป็นเหตุให้เหมือนกับว่า ในเงินทำบุญ ๑ บาทนั้น

ยายแฟงจะได้อานิสงส์เพียงแค่สลึงเฟื้องเท่านั้น โดยพระมหาโตท่านได้ยกนิทาน เรื่องตากะยายฝังเงินเฟื้อง

ไว้ที่ศิลาหน้าบันไดขึ้นมาประกอบคำเทศน์ของท่านด้วย ท่านได้เทศน์ว่า เพราะด้วยผลบุญที่ทำนั้นมีสาเหตุมูลฐาน

ในการประกอบการบุญนั้นไว้ผิด แม้ว่าเรื่องที่เจ้าภาพได้สร้างวัดนี้ไว้นั้นจะเป็นการดี

แต่ก็เพราะการตั้งฐานในการทำบุญครั้งนี้ไม่ถูกบุญใหญ่ จึงทำให้ผลแห่งการทำบุญนั้นใหญ่โตเหมือนดังที่หวังไว้ไปไม่ได้

คงจะได้บ้างก็แค่เพียงของเศษบุญ หรือจาก ๑ บาทก็ได้เพียงสลึงเฟื้องเท่านั้น

เมื่อยายคุณท้าวแฟงได้ฟังเช่นนั้นแล้ว ก็ให้รู้สึกขัดเคืองใจเป็นกำลัง มีอาการโกรธหน้าแดง

จนแทบจะระเบิดวาจาออกมาต่อว่า บริภาษมหาโตอย่างรุนแรง แต่ก็ยังเกรงเป็นการหมิ่นประมาท

แกจึงได้เพียงแต่ประเคนกัณฑ์เทศน์ด้วยอาการไม่พอใจ กระแทก ๆ ดังปึงปังใหญ่

แล้วหลังจากนั้นแกก็จึงได้ไปนิมนต์เสด็จทูลกระหม่อมพระ ซึ่งก็คือ สมเด็จพระจอมเกล้าฯ

ในสมัยเมื่อครั้งที่พระองค์ยังได้ทรงผนวชอยู่ เพื่อจะได้ให้ทรงเสด็จมาประทานธรรมต่อให้อีกสักกกัณฑ์หนึ่ง

โดยหวังว่า แกคงจะได้รับคำชมจากพระองค์ท่าน ซึ่งก็เท่ากับเป็นการแก้ลำพระมหาโตไปในคราวเดียวกัน

ทูลกระหม่อมฯ ทรงรับนิมนต์ของยายแฟงแล้ว ได้ทรงประทานธรรม ในเรื่องจิตของบุคคลที่ประกอบการกุศลว่า

ถ้าทำด้วยจิตที่ผ่องใส ไม่ขุ่นมัวก็จะได้อานิสงส์มาก แต่ถ้าบุคคลใดทำงานการบุญด้วยจิตที่ขุ่นมัว

ก็ย่อมจะทำให้เกิดได้ผลน้อย และสำหรับในเรื่องของการสร้างวัดนี้ ก็ดูเหมือนจะเนื่องด้วยเรื่องของจิตที่ขุ่นมัวทั้งนั้น

ดังนั้นอานิสงส์ผลบุญจึงมีเพียงเท่านั้น ตามที่ท่านมหาโต ท่านยกเรื่องตากะยาย

ไปอ้อนวอนเทวดาที่ต้นไม้ใหญ่มาประกอบนั้น เป็นเรื่องที่มีปรากฏในฎีกาพระอภิธรรมอยู่

เป็นฉากตัวอย่างที่ช่วยให้ท่านทำการตัดสินบุญของผู้สร้างวัดนี้ว่า ผลแห่งบุญนั้นจะอำนวยให้เกิดได้ไม่เต็มเม็ด เต็มหน่วย

คงได้แค่เพียง ๓ ใน ๘ ส่วน เหมือนกับเงิน ๑ บาท โค้งเว้าหายไปเสีย ๕ เฟื้อง คงได้เพียง ๓ เฟื้อง

คือ เหลือเพียงสลึงเฟื้องเท่านั้น การที่ท่านตัดสินอย่างนี้ก็นับว่ายังดีนักเทียว

ถ้าเป็นความเห็นของเรา (สมเด็จพระจอมเกล้าฯ) คงจะตัดสินให้ได้บุญเพียง ๒ ไพเท่านั้น

คือตัดสินตามเหตุที่ได้เห็น เพราะในการสร้างบุญนั้น วัดกันด้วยระดับของจิตใจ ผลที่เธอควรได้รับจึงควรมีเพียงเท่านี้

แล้วทูลกระหม่อมฯ ก็ลง เอวัง ไว้เท่านั้น

เทศน์ ๒ กัณฑ์ของ ๒ ท่านนี้ นับเป็นเรื่องน่าคิด และในเรื่องนี้ผู้อ่านก็ควรจะคิดวินิจฉัยเองด้วยเหมือนกัน

ผู้เรียบเรียงคิดว่า ท่านทั้งสองต้องการให้ยายแฟงรู้จักการทำบุญด้วยการพิจารณาลงไปถึงมูลเหตุต่างๆ ที่มีอยู่ในใจ

และให้รู้จักคำนึงถึงที่มาของสิ่งที่ได้มาใช้ในการทำบุญด้วยว่า เป็นมูลฐานสำคัญของบุญ

สมเด็จพระจอมเกล้าฯ ท่านคงทรงพระประสงค์ที่จะตอกย้ำความรู้สึกของยายคุณท้าวแฟง

ให้รู้ตระหนักลงไปถึงในเรื่องกุศลจิต และอกุศลจิต มีอำนาจความสำคัญแตกต่างกันอย่างไร

ผู้เรียบเรียงหวังเป็นอย่างยิ่งว่า เรื่องการสร้างวัดของยายแฟงนี้คงจะแสดงให้พวกเราได้เห็นอะไรๆ

เกี่ยวกับการทำบุญกุศลได้ชัดขึ้นมาบ้าง ไม่มากก็น้อย

อนึ่ง ในเรื่องนี้มีอยู่ตอนหนึ่งที่ทูลกระหม่อมพระ ท่านได้ตรัสว่า คุณท้าวแฟงควรจะได้บุญเพียง ๒ ไพเท่านั้น

ท่านผู้อ่านที่มีอายุน้อยนั้นอาจจะไม่ทราบมาตราเงินไทยในสมัยเก่า ดังนั้นจึงจะขอเรียนให้ทราบว่า ๔ ไพนั้น

มีค่าเท่ากับ ๑ เฟื้อง และ ๒ เฟื้องเป็น ๑ สลึง ดังนั้น หนึ่งไพจึงมีค่าเพียงราว ๑ สตางค์เท่านั้น

ระองค์ทรงบอกว่าที่ทำบุญบาทหนึ่งนั้นได้ผลบุญจริงๆ เพียงแค่ ๖ สตางค์

น้อยกว่าที่มหาโตท่านได้ตัดสินไว้เสียอีก คือ ใน ๑๐๐ ส่วน เหลืออยู่เพียง ๖ ส่วน เท่านั้นนั่นเอง

และอีกประการหนึ่ง ควรทำความเข้าใจไว้ให้ชัดว่า คำว่า "จิดขุ่นมัว" ที่มีใช้อยู่ในเรื่องนี้นั้น

ไม่ได้หมายถึงการขุ่นมัวด้วยความโกรธหรือการลุแก่โทสะเพียงอย่างเดียว

ถ้าพิจารณากันให้ดีแล้วจะเห็นว่า ท่านหมายถึงความขุ่นมัวด้วยความโลภและความหลงด้วย

คือ พร้อมกันทั้ง ๓ ประการ ยายแฟงโลภอยากได้หน้า และหลงไปว่า ในหลวงท่านจะโปรดปราน

จึงได้สร้างวัดขึ้นมา ส่วนจิตใจของยายแฟงนั้น ไม่มีใครรู้ได้ แต่เท่าที่ประมาณพอได้ก็คือ แกเป็นแม่เล้าคุมซ่องนางโลม

ดังนั้นจิตใจแกจึงน่าจะมีส่วนที่ผ่องใสในการกุศลอยู่น้อยมาก เมื่อเทียบกับส่วนที่เป็นอกุศลอันขุ่นมัว

ซึ่งซ่อนลึกหลบอยู่ภายในใจของแก คนที่ทำบุญเอาหน้า ได้เงินทองมาโดยไม่บริสุทธิ์นั้น

จึงอยู่ห่างไกลบุญมาก ทำให้ไม่สามารถไปสู้คนที่ทำบุญด้วยจิตที่บริสุทธิ์ และด้วยสิ่งของที่บริสุทธิ์สะอาดไม่ได้เลย

อย่างไรก็ตามผู้เรียบเรียงคิดว่า แม้ได้น้อยก็ยังดีกว่าไม่ได้เลย บุญนั้นไม่ว่ามากหรือน้อยเพียงใด

ย่อมมีผลให้อุบัติเกิดเป็นความดีมาค้ำจุนผู้กระทำบุญนั้นแต่เพียงฝ่ายเดียว จะมากหรือน้อยก็มีแต่ดี

เรื่องของยายแฟงนี้ได้เขียนเล่าเก็บเอาไว้เพื่อเตือนใจผู้ที่อาจจะตีความคิดเอาเองว่า

จะหากำไรด้วยการทำชั่วทำบาปให้มาก แล้วก็จะเอาสิ่งของจำนวนมากที่ได้จากบาปกรรมของตัวนั้นมาสร้างความดี

จะได้มีความดีมากๆ ความคิดเช่นนั้นเป็นความคิดที่ผิด เพราะความดีที่เกิดนั้นย่อมมีผลน้อย

อย่าคิดว่าทำชั่วไว้มาก ๆ แล้ว ก็จึงค่อยหันกลับมาทำความดี แล้วก็จะทำให้ได้กำไร

เกิดเป็นผลบุญขึ้นอีกมากมายได้ตามที่ใจตนเองคาดเดาเอาไว้เลยเป็นอันขาด เรื่องของคุณท้าวแฟง

ที่สร้างวัดคณิกาผลนี่นั้นนับว่าเป็นอุทาหรณ์ ที่น่าสังวรอยู่ไม่น้อยเลย จริง ๆ ทีเดียว

Rough translation : .....

In the reign of the King Rama IV, there're well-run houses of prostitution in Bangkok operated by a woman name Fang (ยายแฟง ). It's common knowledge that The King Rama IV love to build temple. And she wanted to gain face so she built a temple in Bangkok and then asked the King to name her temple and the King named it "Wat Knikapol" which means the temple built from the profits of prostitution. In the day of celebration of the new temple, Fang invited Somdet Toh ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...issaro/toh.html ) to come in the hope Somdet Toh will prise her good deeds infront of a lot of ppl and gaining more face but Somdet Toh said " you made merit not because you want to make merit, a merit like this if you makes merit 1 Baht worth, she'll only gain 3/8 of 1 Baht worth of merits in return"

Fang fed up with what she heard but she didn't dare to do a thing to Somdet Toh. Several days later she invited the King Rama V (he's ordained as a monk at that time) to come to her temple in the hope to gain the prise from King Rama V and rebuff what Somdet Toh said at the same time. the King said " the merit that made with clouded mind won't give you the merit that you want to make, the same goes to your temple. Somdet Toh was right you only gain 3/8 of what you did in return, infact in my opinion you only get 6/100 in return"

ps, please forgive my bad English

[Brucenkhamen]

As a dedicated ice cream cone eater I have a slightly different perspective on this. I agree that doing good deads to score little browny points is not really in the spirit of Buddhism. However if I need help and someone helps me, I am glad of the help and probably don't care so much why they did it. Similarly if a governement is working tirelessly for the good of its people and not for its own greed or power trip, I am happy with the governement. I don't care if they are doing it to improve their karma.

Personally speaking - trying to be helpful to people just feels right. However when it comes to, say, being creative with my tax return I might be tempted but buddhism has taught me that if I cheat I will be cheated, so I don't do it. (Its a very annoying religion sometimes :-))

Yes, but looking at those examples you gave I'm sure you act that way because you see how you can benefit someone else right now and you feel good about yourself when you do it. This is the right attitude I think.

I doubt you are calculating how many brownie points you'll earn and what you'll get out of it.

So doing good has it's rewards in the present moment, any future rewards in terms of good kamma is a by product.

[jamesc2000]

Is good karma not getting reborn which is the ultimate in Buddhism?

Does good karma lead you to be unattached to your “self”?

Surely the feeling of “I do good things” is a good feeling but attaches one to “self” even more?

Isn’t good karma about letting go?

Or is good karma getting born again rich?

As for helping people, what is the best help?

Surely it must be to help people lead themselves out of the cycle of death and rebirth?

[ade100]

As a dedicated ice cream cone eater I have a slightly different perspective on this. I agree that doing good deads to score little browny points is not really in the spirit of Buddhism. However if I need help and someone helps me, I am glad of the help and probably don't care so much why they did it. Similarly if a governement is working tirelessly for the good of its people and not for its own greed or power trip, I am happy with the governement. I don't care if they are doing it to improve their karma.

Personally speaking - trying to be helpful to people just feels right. However when it comes to, say, being creative with my tax return I might be tempted but buddhism has taught me that if I cheat I will be cheated, so I don't do it. (Its a very annoying religion sometimes :-))

Yes, but looking at those examples you gave I'm sure you act that way because you see how you can benefit someone else right now and you feel good about yourself when you do it. This is the right attitude I think.

I doubt you are calculating how many brownie points you'll earn and what you'll get out of it.

So doing good has it's rewards in the present moment, any future rewards in terms of good kamma is a by product.

Yes I agree entirely. I suppose it is a kind of instant karma. If I treat someone at work with respect, rather than being rude and grumpy, I get a better reaction from them , they feel better and I feel better. Its still cause and effect but the effect can be seen right away.

I remember when I first started practising Buddhism as a young man. The idea of being respectful to others was not one I had considered much. I was very disrespectful of people who held different views to me, people who I considered "old and boring" or not “cool”. The argument that was presented to me was not exactly brownie points but that I was making causes for my own suffering. So at first I made a conscious effort to be more respectful but then after a while as my relationships with people improved, I felt better about myself, it just seemed like the best thing to do.

[sabaijai]

Kna, interesting post but please refrain from posting Thai language in the Buddhism subforum. According to our forum-wide rules, the only language permitted on the Expat Forum is English. There is one exception, the Thai Language subforum, where Thai script is permitted. Thank you!

[AYJAYDEE]

This discussion started in another string on Western Buddhists:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=104645

As the discussion we were having was off topic but very interesting, I thought it best to start a new thread.

The question is: do all thoughts, words and actions create karma?

I am of the opinion that they do. I would say we can't so much as make a phone call, drive to work or read the newspaper without creating karma.

Some possible examples of non-karma generating actions have been put forward:

"Neutral actions" like going to the supermarket (chutai)

The actions of the enlightened (chownah)

An unintentional action like treading on someone's toe (ade100)

So what do you think? Is creating karma a part of every day life or not? Can we do things without creating karma?

buddhadassa has suggested that actions that take place without "clinging" generate no karma

[Pepe']

We do not receive karma for our thoughts.

Just everything else we do...