Us Customs Stopping People With Laptops

[JetsetBkk]

yes - I can't see them being computer experts

I took some stuff through once - it was zipped up, password protected and renamed "c:\pagefile2.sys".

The final part of the "Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000" came into force in the UK recently. It is an offence punishable by up to 2 years in prison to refuse to hand over encryption keys when asked to do so.

But now we have stuff like DriveCrypt which allows you to encrypt your sensitive data such as financial information, and it also allows you to hide a drive full of stuff that you don't want anyone to see. So if customs want to know why you have DriveCrypt on your laptop, you tell them it's for your sensitive financial data. If they ask for the other keys to unhide the encrypted drives, you just tell 'em you don't have any.

[karazyal]

I heard this elsewhere. Can it be true?

The copy everything on your hard disk, flash drives etc.

If stuff is encrypted, they want to know the passphrase. If you don't provide it, they talk with you in a room for 3 hours, so i heard.

One guy had a machine that linked booted from the www on a disk in the Netherlands. He got the long talk.

What do you think? What would you do?

My last time coming back from Thailand through Detroit the customs guy took my memory card from my camera and checked it out in their office, took another 15 minutes for them to come back! Nothing on it of course but I had to cool my heals for the time being. I had taken the batteries out of the camera and I said give me a couple secs to put them back so you can scan the pics here - they said no - wanted their own computer!!

However, they thought my flash drive was one of those music things that kids record stuff on and ignored it! Nothing bad on that FD either just a portable Firefox browser with my favorites, some WP programs and a portable anti-virus (ClamWin.) This just shows you that they can go overboard on something like a camera and ignore something else they do not understand!

That's life!

[Phil Conners]

So what happens if you have encrypted stuff on your drive and don't give them the keys? (or can't give them because you forgot/lost them/the info is confidential and you would be legally liable/lose your job for disclosing it?).

Are they entitled to demand decryption? Or can you 'politely decline'.

I have no idea for the US,

but in the UK it is go to jail time if you do not give up the keys.

A law on the statute book, but I understand has never been tested.

Easy: http://www.truecrypt.org/docs/?s=plausible-deniability

[stumonster]

U.S. courts consider legality of laptop inspections

By Adam Liptak

Published: January 7, 2008

A couple of years ago, Michael Arnold landed at the Los Angeles International Airport after a 20-hour flight from the Philippines. He had his laptop with him, and a customs officer took a look at what was on his hard drive. Clicking on folders called "Kodak pictures" and "Kodak memories," the officer found child pornography.

The search was not unusual: The government contends that it is perfectly free to inspect every laptop that enters the country, whether or not there is anything suspicious about the computer or its owner. Rummaging through a computer's hard drive, the government says, is no different from looking through a suitcase. One federal appeals court has agreed, and a second seems ready to follow suit.

There is one lonely voice on the other side. In 2006, Judge Dean Pregerson of U.S. District Court in Los Angeles suppressed the evidence against Arnold.

"Electronic storage devices function as an extension of our own memory," Pregerson wrote, in explaining why the government should not be allowed to inspect them without cause. "They are capable of storing our thoughts, ranging from the most whimsical to the most profound."

Computer hard drives, Pregerson continued, can include diaries, letters, medical information, financial records, trade secrets, attorney-client materials and information about reporters' "confidential sources and story leads."

But Pregerson's decision seems to be headed for reversal. The three judges who heard the arguments in October in the appeal of his decision seemed persuaded that a computer is just a container and deserves no special protection from searches at the border. The same information in hard-copy form, their questions suggested, would doubtless be subject to search.

full story here

[Jingthing]

My last time coming back from Thailand through Detroit the customs guy took my memory card from my camera and checked it out in their office, took another 15 minutes for them to come back!

If you had deleted something on your camera memory card and they inspected your memory card, can they retrieve deleted images?

Edited January 8, 2008 by Jingthing

[Langsuan Man]

Only if they have a special program that will retrieve deleted images from a memory card. But I doubt if they would have that readily available.

LSM

[Firefoxx]

A flash memory card like a harddisk can have files recovered, as long as the files haven't been overwritten yet.

I have also have had some very bad experiences with US Customs and Immigration. Very bad, even though I did nothing wrong. They, like most other US officials, tend to treat people like they were a few steps down in the scheme of things. Just take a look at how they call you to them, the same way that people call dogs to them (upturned hand, wiggle the forefinger). They also tend to chew gum all the time, something that would be considered extremely rude in other countries. I've had my laptop booted, but nothing beyond that.

[kayo]

Wow... Makes me sad, but it only adds to my list of reasons to longer travel to the land of the "free".

I initially decided to no longer go there when I was last fingerprinted and eye scanned in Miami airport in 2005.

During a connecting flight from Europe to Central America.

Funny thing is, I wasn't stopping in the States and i was in the transit lounges: But when I wanted to have a cigarette during my three hour layover, the guy who'd just fingerprinted and eyeball scanned me, told me to go down a corridor that took me straight to the main terminal, and out the front doors of the airport.

I could have hopped in a cab or on a bus and disappeared then, had I wanted to, or been Mexican.

Edited January 9, 2008 by kayo

[soundman]

yes - I can't see them being computer experts - so I wonder what happens if you have a linux distro running that only boots to console , will they know enough to start the GUI or even search your partitions.

or if you have a dual boot machine with a clean windows install and a linux distro ?

Or a USB jumpdrive, or CDs/Dvds, or an SD Card or MicroSD card, or an iPod, or even a phone. Or....what if one has just renamed their image files

That's the thing..... Will they start searching phones as well?

My latest phone has enough memory to carry dozens of VCD's & whatever else you care to put on there.

[bkk_mike]

I have a work laptop, where the whole drive is encrypted. (You need to enter a password before it will boot up).

Information on there can definitely be classified as confidential (I have local copies of all work emails sent/reeived for the last year on it), so I know I'd be asking to call the office first to get permission to let them access the machine. I definitely wouldn't allow them to make copies of anything, not without a court order, or permission from the office. (After all, government departments are really good at keeping data safe - NOT).

i.e. Looking at the data on your hard drive may be equivalent to searching your suitcase. But making copies isn't.

However, the most that's ever happened to me is I've been asked to turn it on.

And the reason why laptops have to go through the scanner separately. - motherboard + battery looks VERY VERY similar to a bomb. By removing it from the bag, it's easier to check that it's not one. (and the layout's easier to see on the scanner as it would generally be lying down flat).

[AlexLah]

They have the right to go through your non encrypted files.

If there are encrypted files on your HD you do not have to provide the password.

An appeal is still pending to get that one solved.

[Crushdepth]

I just wonder what you do if you lost the password/key, because then giving it to them is not feasible. For example, I encrypted some stuff on my new lap top, using some software that comes with the fingerprint reader. I had to reinstall that software and forgot to backup my profile before doing so. The result is I can't decrypt it. But I can't imagine that customs officers would be terribly sympathetic to that story.

Plausible forgetability??

[genobkk]

2 years ago while going back to the USA I had everything searched. I am American, have a US Passport born in America. They made me open my bags, I had about 10 copy DVDs nothing said. Then they went for my laptop, I have my user name logged so they ask me for the password, they spent 20 min looking at all the files on the computer...I am not sure about copying everything but they did search all the pic files etc on my laptop....I was told by a friend that for some reason I must be on a red flag and will be checked like that every time I come in. they was trying so hard, ask for my passport again, ask for my driving lincense, which I do not drive, so gave them an expiered Calfornia ID......I know they was running checks on me to see if I was wanted for a crime.....I felt like scum coming back to my home country and being treated like this for NO reason.......I had gone back before without any issues so I would say maybe it is at least partly true .....I thought we had rights in the USA but seems the US is no better then Thailand under the current situation.....

I

[jfchandler]

Quite clearly, U.S. customs and immigration do have the right (at least at present) to inspect traveler's laptops and other possessions, and they sometimes exercise that right. But against who and under what circumstances, almost impossible to know.

I'm an American citizen, U.S. passport, late 40s, living in BKK now after having traveled here from Los Angeles back and forth maybe 20 times in the past 5 years. Never yet had my baggage searched, though I came close one time. They routed me for a search, and the first question the agent asked was about my work. When I told him I worked for a state university (which was of course true), he let me go without any further inquiry.

Lately, just came back from Christmas holidays in the states, including carrying my laptop with me. Zipped right through customs in Los Angeles, no questions or problems. BUT...before I left BKK, just out of an abundance of caution, I did the same thing with my laptop.. ran a full drive search of all image files to make sure there was nothing that would even begin to cause any question (GF photos, etc etc.).

Prudence would suggest anyone traveling to the U.S. with a laptop should ASSUME they may be searched, and take appropriate precautions to avoid what otherwise could become a very unpleasant encounter -- the last thing anyone needs after 20-24 hours in transit.

[Naam]

I just wonder what you do if you lost the password/key, because then giving it to them is not feasible. For example, I encrypted some stuff on my new lap top, using some software that comes with the fingerprint reader. I had to reinstall that software and forgot to backup my profile before doing so. The result is I can't decrypt it. But I can't imagine that customs officers would be terribly sympathetic to that story.

Plausible forgetability??

you will go straight to Guantanamo. there you can join the choir and sing every day with the al-Qaeda boys:

"Guantanamera... Guajira Guantanamera..."

[moo9]

THE LAND OF THE FREE !

Not only because of this I try to avoid traveling to the US. Nothing against you folks, but I think the whole country got maniac and over-regulated. In addition I find US customs and immigration to be among the most unfriendly in the world!

[kayo]

^ Seconded

I just wonder what you do if you lost the password/key, because then giving it to them is not feasible. For example, I encrypted some stuff on my new lap top, using some software that comes with the fingerprint reader. I had to reinstall that software and forgot to backup my profile before doing so. The result is I can't decrypt it. But I can't imagine that customs officers would be terribly sympathetic to that story.

Plausible forgetability??

you will go straight to Guantanamo. there you can join the choir and sing every day with the al-Qaeda boys:

"Guantanamera... Guajira Guantanamera..."

:D

Look at the bright side, at least in Guantanamo you'll get top notch gov't paid healthcare.

[lomatopo]

In my ~ 40 arrivals in the U.S.A. (~ 50% originating travel in Thailand) over the past five years, I've only been 'secondaried' once, BKK-NRT-HNL. I was the first one through Immigration ~ 06:00, and no checked bags. I was not flagged by the Immigration officer but asked to stop on my way though Customs. There were ~ 10 agents there with not much to do. The agent did a cursory examination of my two bags, asked a few questions, and then I was on my way. She was quite nice, polite and considerate. She did not examine my notebook PC.

For me, arriving at HNL/LAX/SFO/ORD/BOS I have uniformly found the U.S. Immigration officers (CPB) to be nice, friendly and polite. They always seem to say "welcome home", and I have never once seen an agent chewing gum, not that I'd find this somehow rude or culturally insensitive. Unless there are new laws, chewing gum is legal. I find some of the EU passport control officers to be quite surly.

Honestly I find it hard to believe people would avoid the U.S.A. just because of a possible inspection? I think the U.S.A. has got to be in the top 5 re: tourist arrivals, with what, ~ 50 million legal visitors, so maybe it's just the few people here with issues and concerns? Customs inspections have been allowed, by Congress, since 1789 so not something particularly new.

For those with business/client sensitive data you really should check to see what your corporate policies are re: compliance with CPB/ICE searches before encountering one.

I think, but am not 100% certain, that CPB/ICE could confiscate you computer for some time in order to conduct a more thorough search, say in the case of you having encrypted data and a reluctance to provide them with access to the encrypted data. However, at present (U.S.A.) you do not have to divulge the encryption key.

[Naam]

THE LAND OF THE FREE !

Not only because of this I try to avoid traveling to the US. Nothing against you folks, but I think the whole country got maniac and over-regulated. In addition I find US customs and immigration to be among the most unfriendly in the world!

we have lived (as foreigners) nearly fifteen years in the U.S. of A. never had problems with customs. on the contrary! we found U.S. customs to be most lenient and understanding, be it arriving at some airport or shipping things. what became really unbearable after sept 11, 2001 was the behaviour of some (not all!) rude, uneducated and absolute low class immigration officers.

[Firefoxx]

As it is, YMMV. Some people will have bad experiences, others will have good. It does not mean that all will have good, or all will have bad. Some people have all the luck, others aren't so lucky.

As for chewing gum, no, it's not illegal. But to chew gum while performing your duty, when you need to interact with others, is showing disrespect. Try chewing gum all the time (and making it as obvious as these people do) while talking to your superiors. Since it's so prevalent in the US, you might get away with it, but in a lot of countries, you'd probably be disciplined.

Also, my ABSOLUTE WORST experience with customs and immigration (yes, both, one right after the other) was *before* 9/11. Think about that. The ordeal cost me nearly 4 hours (of me doing absolutely nothing and being treated like a criminal), and I almost missed my shuttle. 9/11 had nothing to do with how they behave, they were bad from the start.

Not once did I meet any US customs/immigration official that I could honestly say was polite/nice/considerate. They were all very curt, if not downright rude. And this is without me actually doing anything to them, they were like that from the outset.

[lomatopo]

As it is, YMMV. Some people will have bad experiences, others will have good. It does not mean that all will have good, or all will have bad. Some people have all the luck, others aren't so lucky.

As for chewing gum, no, it's not illegal. But to chew gum while performing your duty, when you need to interact with others, is showing disrespect. Try chewing gum all the time (and making it as obvious as these people do) while talking to your superiors. Since it's so prevalent in the US, you might get away with it, but in a lot of countries, you'd probably be disciplined.

Also, my ABSOLUTE WORST experience with customs and immigration (yes, both, one right after the other) was *before* 9/11. Think about that. The ordeal cost me nearly 4 hours (of me doing absolutely nothing and being treated like a criminal), and I almost missed my shuttle. 9/11 had nothing to do with how they behave, they were bad from the start.

Not once did I meet any US customs/immigration official that I could honestly say was polite/nice/considerate. They were all very curt, if not downright rude. And this is without me actually doing anything to them, they were like that from the outset.

OK, so clearly you've got some issues from a long time ago that you are still dealing with, and I sincerely hope you are able to work through those. Maybe you can report on some more recent experiences, which might have been more positive, short of the the gum chewing?

Like I said, in my most recent 40 arrivals, and even in the ~ 160 or so prior arrivals, I have never experienced any negative feelings from CBP or ICE personnel. nothing even close to rude or curt, nor have I ever seen a CBP officer chewing gum.

Honestly, if you are so incensed perhaps its time to give up your U.S. passport/citizenship and seek citizenship in another country? Chances of that happening: 10 -12.

[nikster]

They have the right to go through your non encrypted files.

If there are encrypted files on your HD you do not have to provide the password.

The problem is, if you are not a U.S. citizen, the U.S. customs/immigration can simply decide to not let you in and send you on a flight back home. No reason needed, apart from ones that are impossible to prove and easy to make up.

Once a customs officer threatened to flag me - he told me he'd put my name on a list and then I'd get the full treatment every time I enter the U.S.. That was enough to let me reconsider my protest against the confiscation of some cuban cigars. Though to this day I am wondering about how they "destroyed" them, as required by law. Probably had a little party that evening...

Anyway... this sucks. As if the US immigration wasn't paranoid enough already. But as long as they are not making copies, they are probably well within the law to search laptops.

[nikster]

Like I said, in my most recent 40 arrivals, and even in the ~ 160 or so prior arrivals, I have never experienced any negative feelings from CBP or ICE personnel. nothing even close to rude or curt, nor have I ever seen a CBP officer chewing gum.

Honestly, if you are so incensed perhaps its time to give up your U.S. passport/citizenship and seek citizenship in another country? Chances of that happening: 10 -12.

Honestly, US customs and immigration have an extremely bad rep, and for good reasons. In Europe, they look at your passport, probably check it against interpol, and it's good day and goodbye. In the U.S. they want to know where you were, they want to know what you did, and if anything sounds "suspicious", you go to secondary.

Moroccan friend of mine worked for an oil company in Houston. Entering the U.S. was always a 3-4 hour ordeal for her - every single time. Her crime? From Morocco! A 40 year old at the time pregnant woman.

I am a greencard holder and what annoys me most is that there are no clear rules or laws - it's always up to the officer, probably doing overtime, underpaid, dealing with lots of crazy people, and on a power trip. If I tell them I was in Thailand for 6 months working over that newfangled thing "the internet" their little head explodes. Then I have to listen to theories what may or may not be the rules that they just made up.

Edited January 10, 2008 by nikster

[britmaveric]

Never been bothered - hundreds trip to/from. Always pleasant and courteous, different airports to boot. Perhaps I am lucky, but I think not.

[Firefoxx]

Issues from a long time ago? This was from just a bit before 9/11. Not that long ago. The treatment was repeated, although to a lesser degree, a couple years later. After that, I've been there again (all these are business trips, since I have very little incentive to go to the US), and yes, they've been curt, but *at least* they didn't treat me as badly as the previous times. No, they've never actually been courteous. I have several friends who go through this process several times a year, and they've had similar experiences.

As I said, you've been lucky, and I'm not saying you're a liar, so you don't need to repeat about how many times you've had good experiences, we believe you already. But I'm saying that different people have different experiences ("YMMV"), so let's leave it at that. You have your good, others have their bad, and it's everyone's right to discuss these experiences. You have good experiences, I have bad. OK? My computer works well, yours breaks down. I have colds in the winter, you don't. Etc. etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.

I never said that I was an American citizen. You may assume as you like. You also assume that this is enough to make me mad at the whole country, which is not the case, as it would be ridiculous. What I don't like is the abuse of positions of power, and it's something that US officials exhibit quite often.

One thing that really bothers me is this: These people are the first examples of US citizens that any visitor to the US meets. This is not a very good first impression.

I've been pretty much around the world, and really, I can't recall any other place being this bad. Immigration and customs agents have been sloppy, lazy, or just uninterested, but never all-out rude.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Firefoxx

[Jingthing]

The US customs people are a disgrace. I don't care if you have never been bothered by them. A huge and unreasonable percentage of us have been and for no good reason.

[Naam]

Not once did I meet any US customs/immigration official that I could honestly say was polite/nice/considerate. They were all very curt, if not downright rude. And this is without me actually doing anything to them, they were like that from the outset.

we met the whole range.

nice chap in Cincinatti: "what is the purpose of your visit?"

me: "retired, spending most of my time in Florida"

nice chap in Cincinatti (grinning and stamping my passport): "lucky you. enjoy your stay!"

old shrivelled bitch in Atlanta: "what is the purpose of your visit?"

my wife: "we have a house in Florida"

old shrivelled bitch in Atlanta: "that's not a valid reason to enter the United States!"

[Naam]

The US customs people are a disgrace. I don't care if you have never been bothered by them. A huge and unreasonable percentage of us have been and for no good reason.

some of us had positive experiences. once we were singled out and had to open the suitcases. my heart started to race and i nearly shat in my pants when i saw in my wife's suitcase a big transparent plastic bag (perhaps 2 kilos) containing a white-yellowish powder.

-what's this ma'am?

-i use it for face masks. you mix it with water and...

-your face looks okay to me ma'am. close the suitcases sir.

after passing customs i was seriously considering to administer a beating but there were too many witnesses around.

[Jingthing]

old shrivelled bitch in Atlanta: "what is the purpose of your visit?"

my wife: "we have a house in Florida"

old shrivelled bitch in Atlanta: "that's not a valid reason to enter the United States!"

That is incredible.

[genobkk]

I really think it is not completely legal to search American citizen laptops who have NOT done anything wrong before hand....lI thought as an American citizen that we had rights, at least we did before Bush and 9/11. As I stated before now it seems to me the US is no better then any other country in the world and the searching of NOT only my bags, but my laptop really put me off, I have never had this happen in any other country that I went to......the dounbe checking of passport, checking of ID card, etc.....They seem to try so hard to find something to get me in trouble for......I let them search but once they was finished I ask why did they do this?? I Thought as Americans we had some rights. I understand maybe the bags, but the laptop was a bit much. He just said since 9/11 they want to check the laptops to see if you have any pics of airports, etc...what a lame excuse and now days they use 9/11 for anything they want....We no longer have any rights left as American citizens they have gone allready...America is no better then thailand or any other country at this point......I used to be proud that I am from American but hey not so much anymore....I was 38 at the time, blonde hair, blue eyes, clean cut guy to...yes I can understand why some people want to avoid traveling to the USA, the immergration issues, the security issues, etc........I will go back in may for the first time in 2 years and I think that may be partly why they give me so much BS. in 2006 is when I was searched, laptop bags, etc, in 2004 I was almost searched, sent to other area, answered their questions and went through no search. before 2004 I never had any issues even 6 months after 9/11