Gout

[mxyzptlk]

I've been taking Allopurinol 300mg for > 10 years. Some people may experience gout attacks initially until their uric acid level "stabilises", at least thats what the patient info that comes with the Allopurinol says. I was lucky, I didn't have a big problem, but I did have a few "twinges" particularly when the weather turned cold - but nothing serious like a full gout attack which left me in agony for up to 4 days at a time before i was diagnosed as having gout and started taking Allopurinol.

The patient info also says that "you may experience a loss of co-ordination, dizziness and tiredness". I'm pleased about that; I thought that was due to age and large intake of beer for the last 35 years....LOL

Edited March 12, 2009 by mxyzptlk

[jackoneilone]

also relevant science now tells us to consume ATLEAST 1500mg - 2000mg of vitamin c over a day. Researchers found that people consuming those amounts had 47% less chance of ever getting gout. apparently its because it bonds to the ureic acid and possibly then allowing your kidneys to filter it out better and reducing inflammation.

[mahtin]

also relevant science now tells us to consume ATLEAST 1500mg - 2000mg of vitamin c over a day. Researchers found that people consuming those amounts had 47% less chance of ever getting gout. apparently its because it bonds to the ureic acid and possibly then allowing your kidneys to filter it out better and reducing inflammation.

Listen to Linus Pauling about Vitamin C. 2 grammes is peanuts.

Water is the key, but ALKALINE water.

Uric acid is nearly insoluble in water, alcohol, and ether, but soluble in solutions of alkaline salts. In other words, it becomes soluble in alkaline water. Arthritis and gout are caused by uric acid deposited between the joints, non-dissolved due to the low alkalinity of an older person's blood. Drinking acid free alkaline water will gradually elevate one's blood pH and the gout will disappear naturally.

[neverdie]

Allopurinol 100mg once per day, every day.

If I feel a twinge will then take a NSAID (Ibuprofen 200mg) for a day.

Works for me (touch wood).

Where did you get your allopurinol from i can get ziloric but they are not cheap 150b for ten will have to try the chinese places they allways seam cheaper.

Got mine from the pharmacy at the local hospital - 100 for 75 baht.

No doubt from all that 'hard' drinking you do Jack.....maybe you should lay off the bottle for a while.....hows that big nose of yours going?

[Gary A]

I take the 100 mg Allopurinal. One a day with a lot of water does the trick. If I feel a twinge, I double the dose for a couple of days. Most of you guys are getting ripped off buying it. The last I bought was a bottle of 1,000 100mg. I bought them on Chaiyapruk road in Jomtien. I think they cost me about 600 baht.

[jackoneilone]

cranberries is good for UTI etc but not good for Gout and all evidence supporting it is anecdodal. Gout's primary trigger and cause is an acidic ph blood and hence body due to excess uric acid build up and crystallisation within joints etc.

There are only 3 things SCIENTIFICALLY proven to work and help.

1. Alkaline consumables eg alkaline water, foods etc These will reduce the ph within and allow for much greater uric acid removal since its much more soluble then.

2. High Vitamin C content daily. Can be used as a preventative or as part of your dialy ongoing regiment.

3. Medications

Cranberries are HIGHLY acidic and studies show that they increase decrease blood ph and urine too. Not a good thing.

[FBN]

cranberries is good for UTI etc but not good for Gout and all evidence supporting it is anecdodal. Gout's primary trigger and cause is an acidic ph blood and hence body due to excess uric acid build up and crystallisation within joints etc.

There are only 3 things SCIENTIFICALLY proven to work and help.

1. Alkaline consumables eg alkaline water, foods etc These will reduce the ph within and allow for much greater uric acid removal since its much more soluble then.

2. High Vitamin C content daily. Can be used as a preventative or as part of your dialy ongoing regiment.

3. Medications

Cranberries are HIGHLY acidic and studies show that they increase decrease blood ph and urine too. Not a good thing.

This point has been raised many times before and needs to be put straight again:

You can not change your body's pH. This is controlled by intrinsic systems to be at 7.35 exactly. Any change in this leads to very severe metabolic changes, including the oxygen dissociation curve and invariably leads to a fairly fatal outcome.

People get gout as they have different quantities and qualities of the enzyme that converts uric acid to a water soluble form that is excreted through the kidneys. Uric acid on its own, if not converted will be deposited in joints as crystals.

Two kinds of medication is available. Allopurinol which helps the liver to convert uric acid to a soluble form and uricosuric drugs such as Probenecid which works in the kidney, helping to excrete uric acid.

Probenecid is only intended for use in an acute attack as it may cause kidney stones of uric acid among other side effects.

Ani-inflammotories such as indomethasine are added for pain relief

Vitamin C = Ascorbic ACID; yes it is an acidic compound as well and not really recommended.

For many people, just limiting the intake of protein is sufficient as they may have a limited amount of enzyme and not overusing it by excessive intake of protein will be fine.

Taking alcohol, even in these "marginal cases" may result in an acute attack as alcohol competes for the same enzyme and thus depletes the available amount to manage uric acid.

So have the blood levels checked for uric acid, the level will usually be an indication of enzyme function. The higher the level, diet as well as medication is usually indicated.

Marginally elevated levels are usually managed by diet and a reduction of alcohol intake alone with follow up bloods in about 6-8 wks.

Allopurinol is then gradually introduced at the minimum dosage that will keep levels low.

Most long time sufferers do not really need a consultation every time apart from needing the odd jab of an anti-inflammatory or a prescription for probenecid as they know full well how to control their symptoms.

They usually also know which kinds of alcohol they may use and which to stay away from; the same with diet.

This is not a problem that is that difficult to manage but understanding the whys and the wherefores are much more useful than just opting for medication immediately.

Most alternative medicine options in gout is about as useful as a steak.

[jackoneilone]

well FBN scientists may disagree with some of ur comments especially regarding vitamin c(agreed that its an acid ofcourse) and being able to change albeit a little the ph of certain bodily fluids (not talking about the body as a whole) eg blood, urine etc.

Even whether it is an aquired disease is still debated. eg bodybuilders consuming 300+ grams of protein a day and later getting gout. are they forcing it on themselves or is it a "malfunction" of the body? would they not have gotten gout had they taken reasonable amounts of protein?

[FBN]

The pH of blood is 7.35 fixed = "body" pH. Determined by an arterial blood gas analysis. (Search metabolic acidosis if you need more details on pH and the implications of..)

pH of urine can be manipulated a bit by Vit C and cranberry juice to make it more acidic; this is sometimes used in therapy in combination with certain antibiotics to treat urinary tract infections.

Granules called Citro Soda can make the urine more alkaline.

You can't change blood levels of uric acid by manipulating urine.

Yes, if body builders (those that do develop gout and not all does) would reduce their protein intake their gout may or may not go away depending on the quality and quantity of enzyme they have. Genetically determined.

[ingvar]

I have gout and had serious attacks before I found my cure on the earthclinic site (google it); Apple Cider Vinegar. It is not quack, as many feedbacks to the site attest to, it actually works and I do not care how the he*k it works, it just works.

From my own research; gout is basically crystallized uric acid or some similar compound in joints caused by the blood being saturated, from my own experience (I have no medical degree) I think there are 2 types of gout attack. these occur mainly when there is a change in the body system such as hard excercise, rapid weigh loss or gain etc..;

1. sudden increase in uric acid causing rapid crystallization on joints, in combination with movement or cooling during sleeping. Damage occur to tissue and you get swelling with resulting pain. this type of attack is usually short lasting 1 - 3 days.

2. decrease in uric acid, causing crystals embedded for a long time in the joint tissue to start dissolving. This cause a very prolonged and painful attack as the crystals dissolve the tissue is constantly damaged. this attack can last for weeks.

There are many people in the world with higher than normal uric acid levels in the blood who never suffer a gout attack, this is probably because there is no change in their body metabolism such as starting excercising, stopping excercising, stopping boozing, starting boozing etc..

When I feel an attack might be coming I start immediately with Colchicine and Voltaren but this is very rarely needed nowadays. for some reason taking Apple Cider Vinegar daily (must be with the mother load) as described on the earthclinic site just stops the symptoms of the second case and my uric acid levels in the blood are back to normal when I take the Vinegar. Don't ask me how it works, it just works and it does'nt do any harm anyway to try it. Other health benefits can be noted too.

First time I read about the cure I hurried down to Pattaya and found the Braggs Apple Cider Vinegar in Villa Market. I had suffered from an attack for about a week and stumbled in, bought a bottle and mixed a big dose with Pomegranate juice. Went to a restaurant and as I sat at the table I could feel constant tingling in my big toe, after about two hours the gout was gone.

[katana]

Hi ingvar,

That's interesting. What kind of dose of the vinegar do you take?

[Sargento]

Drinking acid free alkaline water will gradually elevate one's blood pH and the gout will disappear naturally.

mahtin, or anyone else.

Where can I find "alkaline free water?"

From the tap (in the US)? Or do I have to buy it in the stores? Certain brands?

Thanks in advance.

[moe666]

I have suffered from gout for years, but I now eat anything and drink anything I want. I do watch my sugar intake this seems to help. I have observed my attacks over the years and can say there is a correlation between my thyroid medication and gout attacks.

I was on thyroid medication for about 5 years, no gout attacks, and then was able to get off for about 3 years and during that three years the gout attacks came back and the intensity, duration,and reoccurance increased. About a year ago had blood work done and the thyroid levels had fallen, so back on armour thyroid. Started off at 1/2 grain and slowly raised to 3 grains a day as I raised the daily dose of thyroid the occurance of gout attack abated and I have not had a gout attack in over six months.

My girlfriend is a Dr. of Oriental Medicine and she also has been taking course work in human hormones from the International Hormone Society and this thyroid gout correlation was a issue mentioned by the doctor teaching the course.

I would recommend anyone suffering gout attacks to have their thyroid level checked and also in the morning before getting out of bed check your body temp. with a old fashioned shake down thermometer record for 1 week and if your temp. is below 97.5 on average you may have low thyroid hormone.

[moe666]

I have been on a high protien high fat low carb. diet for a week now no sign of the gout. So what foods really cause it and what medication really prevents it. As stated in my preveious post as I got back on my thyroid medication and increased the dose reoccuring gout has disappeared.

[ingvar]

Katana, The dosage is all on the web, earthclinic. There are a large number of different recipes. I like to use it as salad dressing too, delicious! Remember it MUST be ACV with the mother i.e. unfiltered.

But my personal dosage is as follows: I take a 1.5 litre mineral water bottle and drink about 300 ml to make space for the Apple Cider Vinegar. Add 9 Teaspoons of ACV. Sip from this bottle during the day.

For acute situations when I feel an attack underway: Mix 6 teaspoons of ACV into a glass with dark berry juice (cranberry, pomegranate etc..) and Gulp the whole glass quickly. Take one tablet cholcicin and one 100mg Voltaren pill just in case.

For long term use the acidicity will affect the teeth and pH balance of the body according some sources, therefore for long term use some recommend to mix baking soda until pH neutral before drinking.

It is true that ACV is acidic but compared to the acidity of the stomach this has no consequence overall for the body. In fact if the ACV is burnt the remaining ashes will be highly Alkaline, this is the effective part of the ACV. In this forum a lot has been said about pH in the blood. It is true that the pH of the blood cannot be changed but the pH is not the interesting part. The Oxidation Reduction Potential (ORP) is the interesting part which can be varied within a wide range using what we eat and drink.

[Sargento]

Katana, The dosage is all on the web, earthclinic. There are a large number of different recipes. I like to use it as salad dressing too, delicious! Remember it MUST be ACV with the mother i.e. unfiltered.

I bought Apple Cider Vinegar (I'm visiting in the US right now) at a grocery store. It must not have the Mother, because I cannot see the mother in the bottle. It's clear ACV. I tried ACV for gout relief from this ACV without the Mother and I think it's working after 1 days of two doses of about 1 1/2 tablespon with about 20 oz. of water.

I'll report more.

I do want to find ACV in the grocery store with the Mother, however.

You just pour the ACV with the Mother into the water bottle, correct? you don't need any of the Mother, directly?

Thanks for the info Ingvar.

[ingvar]

Katana, The dosage is all on the web, earthclinic. There are a large number of different recipes. I like to use it as salad dressing too, delicious! Remember it MUST be ACV with the mother i.e. unfiltered.

I bought Apple Cider Vinegar (I'm visiting in the US right now) at a grocery store. It must not have the Mother, because I cannot see the mother in the bottle. It's clear ACV. I tried ACV for gout relief from this ACV without the Mother and I think it's working after 1 days of two doses of about 1 1/2 tablespon with about 20 oz. of water.

I'll report more.

I do want to find ACV in the grocery store with the Mother, however.

You just pour the ACV with the Mother into the water bottle, correct? you don't need any of the Mother, directly?

Thanks for the info Ingvar.

I just pour it with the mother (shake bottle before). I think the mother has many other health benefits but of course I never tried without the mother so I do not know for sure. Braggs ACV should be easily available over there, it comes with mother and there is even a little label with a nice dosage recommendation. They give a recipe for a refreshing drink. I have heard some saying ACV works without the mother but some say they did not get any results from this but got results with the mother load. I think it depends on individual body conditions.

When you start using ACV I would overdose a lot first couple of days; I would take a shot in the morning with 6 tsp in a glass of cranberry juice. and then during the day drink from my 1 litre bottle mixed with 9 tsp of ACV. to take away acidity I would add 1/4 tsp of bakingsoda if using for a long time (more than a month). However served chilled the ACV is actually kinda tasty, if you can stand the smell. After a couple of weeks it should be ok to reduce to about a glass a day with 3 tsp ACV in the morning.

If you are taking other medication such as colchicin continue taking first 2 days and then try to reduce slowly and carefully.

[Sargento]

When you start using ACV I would overdose a lot first couple of days; I would take a shot in the morning with 6 tsp in a glass of cranberry juice. and then during the day drink from my 1 litre bottle mixed with 9 tsp of ACV. to take away acidity I would add 1/4 tsp of bakingsoda if using for a long time (more than a month). However served chilled the ACV is actually kinda tasty, if you can stand the smell. After a couple of weeks it should be ok to reduce to about a glass a day with 3 tsp ACV in the morning.

If you are taking other medication such as colchicin continue taking first 2 days and then try to reduce slowly and carefully.

Thanks again, Ingvar.

Here is my strategy. Please let me know what you think.

I will only take ACV when I have a gout attack coming on, and when the gout goes away I'll go off of it.

ACV is healthy, but in general I don't plan on daily dosages of ACV. - Unless -I think it prevents gout, which it may.

[lopburi3]

For my gout 300mg of Allopurinol daily has prevented any attack for over 20 year and I had severe attacks prior to medication and total family history of gout. I eat everything, including liver without a problem. I have never had to use anything stronger since start of allopurinol usage. It has maintained my uric acid at normal range (and test every 3 months). In Thailand expect it is also cheaper than unfiltered apple juice.

[Sargento]

For my gout 300mg of Allopurinol daily has prevented any attack for over 20 year and I had severe attacks prior to medication and total family history of gout. I eat everything, including liver without a problem. I have never had to use anything stronger since start of allopurinol usage. It has maintained my uric acid at normal range (and test every 3 months). In Thailand expect it is also cheaper than unfiltered apple juice.

I tried Allopurinol twice, but both times (as common in the beginning, a small gout attack began) so I stopped.

As soon as this gout is completely gone, I'll start with 150 GM for 1 week then upgrade the dosage to 300 GM.

I cannot wait, and I hope it works.

[ingvar]

Whenever I can find an alternative to the medical establishments medications, I will try the alternative first. Reason is Medical establishment always go for what they know at the moment without any considerations what effects may occur down the road since the clinical trial for any medicine only are carried out for a limited time before release and after release nobody cares until something actually happens many years later in which case they start to investigate. A perfect example; new reserach find that some of the vitamines that are recommended by medical establishments and produced by various pharma companies in very pure form actually are found to be quiet ineffective as they need to be accompanied by related compounds from their natural environemt to be assimilated by the body properly.

As for allopurinol there are a number of side effects listed, what worries me is that the medical establishment cannot explain how these sideeffects is produced from allopurinol, only that they do occur. This tells me that they do not fully understand what exactly happens when introducing the medication into the body. Of course I would not hesitate for a second taking Allopurinol if I did not have an alternative.

I am sure Allopurinol works, but I would be careful about the dosage as overdosage may not be a good thing. Reason why I think this is Allopurinol inhibits purine synthesis in the body. Purine is very important for DNA and RNA as well as many other body functions. Purine can only be synthesized in the body. So I would try to dose just enough to keep the Uric acid levels in check. Again I am not a medical professional so this is only my opinion.

As for Apple Cider Vinegar (ACV), please note it is ONLY the vinegar that helps. some health shops sell something like apple cider pills or whatever, these do not have any effect whatsoever.

I do not take ACV only for the Gout. If ACV is consumed regularly one will notice an improvement in skin condition and other benefits as well such as cold and sinusitis releif. It is a well known substance for weight reduction. I have also noted that I can go for weeks without taking ACV or any other medication and still not get any Gout attacks. I cannot report on actual blood uric acid levels during the time I do not use ACV but I know that they are low when taking ACV, I tested.

[Wrong Turn]

for the last few years and swapped the beer for a glass of vodka,.

Yes, I've read that Vodka is the except to the no-alcohol rule.

A question to some posters here:

After starting Allopurinol, why do you get your Uric Acid levels checked twice a year?

[LaoPo]

For my gout 300mg of Allopurinol daily has prevented any attack for over 20 year and I had severe attacks prior to medication and total family history of gout. I eat everything, including liver without a problem. I have never had to use anything stronger since start of allopurinol usage. It has maintained my uric acid at normal range (and test every 3 months). In Thailand expect it is also cheaper than unfiltered apple juice.

I tried Allopurinol twice, but both times (as common in the beginning, a small gout attack began) so I stopped.

As soon as this gout is completely gone, I'll start with 150 GM for 1 week then upgrade the dosage to 300 GM.

I cannot wait, and I hope it works.

In the past few years I suffered from severe gout attacks also. (don't even drink alcohol)

But now I use 1x Allopurinol 100 mg so I think the usage of 300mg by Lopburi3 is quite stiff but if he feels well, who am I ?

Lopburi3: did you try to use just 100mg ?

If I get an attack now I take Colchicine 0,5mg immediately up to a few times daily and the pain reduces fast.

LaoPo

[lopburi3]

I was prescribed 300mg at start and have had normal uric acid levels since and no adverse reactions so continue. All males on fathers side of family had severe gout and had to use both. This is 20 years now and do not want to chance an attack or have to use Colchicine.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

I take Purinol in place of Allapurinol. It comes in bottles of 100 and is dirt cheap, usually buy a years+ supply at a time. Works for me.

Sometimes I think it is a tossup between the gout and taking Colchcine, which is worse a foot you can hardly walk on or spending all your time in the john. Wonder if that does anything for losing weight?

Edited July 13, 2009 by BEENTHEREDONETHAT

[junkofdavid2]

Katana, The dosage is all on the web, earthclinic. There are a large number of different recipes. I like to use it as salad dressing too, delicious! Remember it MUST be ACV with the mother i.e. unfiltered.

I bought Apple Cider Vinegar (I'm visiting in the US right now) at a grocery store. It must not have the Mother, because I cannot see the mother in the bottle. It's clear ACV. I tried ACV for gout relief from this ACV without the Mother and I think it's working after 1 days of two doses of about 1 1/2 tablespon with about 20 oz. of water.

I'll report more.

I do want to find ACV in the grocery store with the Mother, however.

You just pour the ACV with the Mother into the water bottle, correct? you don't need any of the Mother, directly?

Thanks for the info Ingvar.

I just pour it with the mother (shake bottle before). I think the mother has many other health benefits but of course I never tried without the mother so I do not know for sure. Braggs ACV should be easily available over there, it comes with mother and there is even a little label with a nice dosage recommendation. They give a recipe for a refreshing drink. I have heard some saying ACV works without the mother but some say they did not get any results from this but got results with the mother load. I think it depends on individual body conditions.

When you start using ACV I would overdose a lot first couple of days; I would take a shot in the morning with 6 tsp in a glass of cranberry juice. and then during the day drink from my 1 litre bottle mixed with 9 tsp of ACV. to take away acidity I would add 1/4 tsp of bakingsoda if using for a long time (more than a month). However served chilled the ACV is actually kinda tasty, if you can stand the smell. After a couple of weeks it should be ok to reduce to about a glass a day with 3 tsp ACV in the morning.

If you are taking other medication such as colchicin continue taking first 2 days and then try to reduce slowly and carefully.

Had really bad gout attack on left big toe (about 3 weeks ago), and I tried the Apple Cider Vinegar... true enough, it worked wonders very quickly (90% cured), but ever since then (about 2 weeks ago), it seems to have little effect (minor improvement) since that time, and the 5-10% pain and slight immobility (not easy to bend toe, must wear slipper instead of shoe) seems to remain.

Been taking 2 tablespoons in a glass of juice, 2x - 3x per day.

Anything I'm doing wrong?

[LaoPo]

Had really bad gout attack on left big toe (about 3 weeks ago), and I tried the Apple Cider Vinegar... true enough, it worked wonders very quickly (90% cured), but ever since then (about 2 weeks ago), it seems to have little effect (minor improvement) since that time, and the 5-10% pain and slight immobility (not easy to bend toe, must wear slipper instead of shoe) seems to remain.

Been taking 2 tablespoons in a glass of juice, 2x - 3x per day.

Anything I'm doing wrong?

I've never tried the Apple Cider Vinegar but suffered immense painful gout attacks myself.

I suggest you start taking ALLOPURINOL (100mg in my case) to prevent gout attacks. If an attack might occur nevertheless, you could bring the pain down immediately by taking COLCHICINE (0,5 mg).

Good luck!

LaoPo