Is This Gramatically Correct Use Of ...

[Wizzard of Oz]

Just wondering about using น้ำหน้า (náam nâa) in a sentence.

Is this correct for spoken thai?

ผม อยาก มี น้ำหน้า ใน ชีวิต ของ ผม

(phom[r] yaak[l] mii naam[h]-naa[f] nai chiwit khawng[r] phom[r])

[sutnyod]

I don't know about correctness, but I understand it. You want to have cream on your life. Good luck for 2008!

[wasabi]

Come on you know you really want สมน้ำหน้า

[Wizzard of Oz]

Haha ... yea that was the phrase it originated from. Obv that is easy enough to use

Just wondering how to use น้ำหน้า (assuming that it is a word/phrase that is also used without the 'fit' part)

[withnail]

น้ำหน้า nám ˈnâa 1 N face, looks (used contemptuously)

สมน้ำหน้า Serves you right!

เกลียดน้ำหน้า To be sick of the sight of something.

These are the only entries in Mary Haas, so it suggests to me that there is no real need to use the word out of context. I distinctly remember after a long winded thread here about the first of these 2 phrases asking my teacher about it and it was obvious that she'd only really thought about the phrase in context.

One thing I had to try and stop at school was try and dissect every word or phrase like this as I found that it distracted me from understanding the meaning behind what was being said.

[DavidHouston]

Haha ... yea that was the phrase it originated from. Obv that is easy enough to use

Just wondering how to use น้ำหน้า (assuming that it is a word/phrase that is also used without the 'fit' part)

The Domnern Sathienpong dictionary offers two useages of "น้ำหน้า" in a phrase other than "สมน้ำหน้า" where "น้ำหน้า" means "the likes of"

น้ำหน้าอย่างเอ๊ง ใครเขาจะเชื่อ "Who would believe the likes of you?"

ฉันเกลี่ยดน้ำหน้าหมอนั่น "I detest that guy."

[LookSaMoon]

ฉันเกลี่ยดน้ำหน้าหมอนั่น "I detest that guy."

I normally use "เกลียดขี้หน้า" and never heard เกลียดน้ำหน้า, may be it can be used, not sure.

[sutnyod]

น้ำหน้า nám ˈnâa 1 N face, looks (used contemptuously)

Being a hobby cook, I strongly believe that the Nam Naa we are talking about is the coconut cream put on kanom waan or kanom chin. It floats on the surface and is therefore called Nam (water) Na (surface).

I find the idea to want "Nam Naa" very original and am sure that Thais will understand and appreciate.

[DavidHouston]

The following is from the Royal Institute Dictionary:

น้ำหน้า น. หน้า (ใช้ในความแดกดัน รังเกียจ หรือดูหมิ่น เป็นต้น) เช่น นํ้าหน้า

อย่างนี้ทําไม่สําเร็จดอก เกลียดนํ้าหน้า ชังนํ้าหน้า; (โบ; กลอน) นํ้าตา

เช่น นํ้าหน้าไล้กําลูน. (ม. คําหลวง ทานกัณฑ์).

My attempt at a partial translation:

náam nâa N. Face (used in a sarcastic or satirical sense in a derogatory or insulting sense, for example). Sample:

. . . . . I hate the sight of him; I detest him; (archaic or poetic) tears or teardrops, . . . . .

Could someone provide a translation for the example "นํ้าหน้าอย่างนี้ทําไม่สําเร็จดอก", please? Also, for the sake of completeness, please translate the archaic usage in the sentence provided: "นํ้าหน้าไล้กําลูน". Thanks.

[DavidHouston]

น้ำหน้า nám ˈnâa 1 N face, looks (used contemptuously)

Being a hobby cook, I strongly believe that the Nam Naa we are talking about is the coconut cream put on kanom waan or kanom chin. It floats on the surface and is therefore called Nam (water) Na (surface).

I find the idea to want "Nam Naa" very original and am sure that Thais will understand and appreciate.

Is it possible that "coconut cream" in Thai is "นำหน้ากะทิ", not "น้ำหน้า"? My wife tells me that this coconut cream in the South is called "หัวกะทิ".

[mangkorn]

น้ำหน้า nám ˈnâa 1 N face, looks (used contemptuously)

Being a hobby cook, I strongly believe that the Nam Naa we are talking about is the coconut cream put on kanom waan or kanom chin. It floats on the surface and is therefore called Nam (water) Na (surface).

I find the idea to want "Nam Naa" very original and am sure that Thais will understand and appreciate.

It is original, but it's not what the OP was asking about.

In post #4, he said he took the idea from สมน้ำหน้า and was wondering about other possible uses. In that sense of น้ำหน้า - there was a long discussion some months ago. The consensus then was that it is one word, that can't really be separated; and it is not a combination of "liquid" + "face."

That usage of น้ำ does not mean "water" - it speaks to an essential characteristic of what is being referred to. If you say น้ำใจ - it doesn't mean "liquid" from your heart, but rather the (positive) essence of the spirit, i.e., "good will; kindness, etc." Or if you say น้ำมือ - it does not refer to water on the hands, but "the action that is done with hands; personal effort; worksmanship, etc." There are other examples of น้ำ as a prefix in that manner.

It seems to me the Mary Haas definition is in a way referring to an essence of one's character and/or actions (and what someone else's idea of those may be, prejudicial or not); or, "countenance," which also may be a reflection of one's character.

[sbk]

น้ำหน้า nám ˈnâa 1 N face, looks (used contemptuously)

Being a hobby cook, I strongly believe that the Nam Naa we are talking about is the coconut cream put on kanom waan or kanom chin. It floats on the surface and is therefore called Nam (water) Na (surface).

I find the idea to want "Nam Naa" very original and am sure that Thais will understand and appreciate.

Is it possible that "coconut cream" in Thai is "นำหน้ากะทิ", not "น้ำหน้า"? My wife tells me that this coconut cream in the South is called "หัวกะทิ".

Asked our cook, and you are right, it is นำหน้ากะทิ, it helped that you put the Thai South in there

[mangkorn]

I find the idea to want "Nam Naa" very original and am sure that Thais will understand and appreciate.

It would be interesting to hear from native Thais about that. It may, or may not, be considered a good thing to want "cream in your life." Some idioms do travel across cultures, but some don't. I recall one that old-time Irishmen used to say, to someone who complained too much: "What do you want, egg in your beer?" The implication was that having egg in your beer was a very good thing, and you simply can't have it all the time - because life is not always easy. No doubt many other people would surely disagree about the desirability of that particular drink of choice...

[sutnyod]

I suggest a simple test: go to the next street corner, order Kanom Chin and tell the vendor to add an extra amount of Nam Naa. Works for me all the time (and is tasty, too ;-) )

[Virin]

I suggest a simple test: go to the next street corner, order Kanom Chin and tell the vendor to add an extra amount of Nam Naa. Works for me all the time (and is tasty, too ;-) )

It's called "ขนมจีนน้ำยา" kà-nŏm jeen náam yaa

ผม อยาก มี น้ำหน้า ใน ชีวิต ของ ผม

(phom[r] yaak[l] mii naam[h]-naa[f] nai chiwit khawng[r] phom[r])

I don't understand this line, I am sure you will be asked for clarification.

I normally use "เกลียดขี้หน้า" and never heard เกลียดน้ำหน้า, may be it can be used, not sure.

Yes, "เกลียดขี้หน้า" is normally used, "เกลียดน้ำหน้า" is rare in conversation nowadays, we can see this word used in the old movie, novel.

[aanon]

Could someone provide a translation for the example "นํ้าหน้าอย่างนี้ทําไม่สําเร็จดอก", please? Also, for the sake of completeness, please translate the archaic usage in the sentence provided: "นํ้าหน้าไล้กําลูน". Thanks.

The first sentence fits with your 'the likes of' translation well:

นํ้าหน้าอย่างนี้ทําไม่สําเร็จดอก

There's no way that the likes of you/him/her is ever going to succeed.

We could use 'someone like you' but 'the likes of you' better captures the derogatory tone, I think.

Sorry, the archaic sentence doesn't mean much to me either. Will await an answer.

all the best.

[meadish_sweetball]

That usage of น้ำ does not mean "water" - it speaks to an essential characteristic of what is being referred to. If you say น้ำใจ - it doesn't mean "liquid" from your heart, but rather the (positive) essence of the spirit, i.e., "good will; kindness, etc." Or if you say น้ำมือ - it does not refer to water on the hands, but "the action that is done with hands; personal effort; worksmanship, etc." There are other examples of น้ำ as a prefix in that manner.

It seems to me the Mary Haas definition is in a way referring to an essence of one's character and/or actions (and what someone else's idea of those may be, prejudicial or not); or, "countenance," which also may be a reflection of one's character.

That seems like a very elegant explanation for how to interpret why it is these two words that make up the phrase -

'somebody like you' = 'somebody with the basic/essential inner characteristics and looks/manner of you'.

[ngieen]

Is it possible that "coconut cream" in Thai is "นำหน้ากะทิ", not "น้ำหน้า"? My wife tells me that this coconut cream in the South is called "หัวกะทิ".

FYI

หัวกะทิ and น้ำกะทิ are different.

หัวกะทิ is coconut cream and is the result of the coconut first squeeze. น้ำกะทิ is produced by adding lukewarm water to the already squeezed coconut to get นำกะท (Coconut water). A third squeeze after adding more water will produce the "Coconut tail" or หางกะทิ.

[sbk]

My cook disagrees with your analysis of coconut cream

หัวกะทิ is the first squeeze

หางกะทิ is the second squeeze

and น้ำกะทิ is the product of the above two

And I have to add, that in the 19 years I have lived here I have never seen someone squeeze coconut gratings 3 times. But then, where I live has an abundance of coconuts.

[ngieen]

My cook disagrees with your analysis of coconut cream

หัวกะทิ is the first squeeze

หางกะทิ is the second squeeze

and น้ำกะทิ is the product of the above two

And I have to add, that in the 19 years I have lived here I have never seen someone squeeze coconut gratings 3 times. But then, where I live has an abundance of coconuts.

you are correct, หางกะทิ is the second squeeze

[DavidHouston]

My cook disagrees with your analysis of coconut cream

หัวกะทิ is the first squeeze

หางกะทิ is the second squeeze

and น้ำกะทิ is the product of the above two

And I have to add, that in the 19 years I have lived here I have never seen someone squeeze coconut gratings 3 times. But then, where I live has an abundance of coconuts.

To paraphrase Richard Nixon, "I am not a cook!", but this discussion is interesting. I looked at various menues on the Internet with หัวกะท as a cooking ingredient. Here is the kind of things out there:

หัวกะทิ (มะพร้าวขูดขาว 100 กรัม) 1/4 ถ้วย

1/2 ถ้วย หัวกะทิตั้งไฟ 1/2 ถ้วย (ใช้มะพร้าวขูดขาว 300 กรัม สำหรับคั้นกะทิ)

หัวกะทิ (ใช้มะพร้าวขูดขาว 100 กรัม) 1/4 ถ้วย

หัวกะทิ (มะพร้าวขูด 800 กรัม) 4 ถ้วย

What do all these recipe ingredients mean?

[sbk]

let me get my cook

[sbk]

มะพร้าวขูดขาว is kut maplao--scrape the coconut... Is that what you mean?

here is the coconut scraper. Takes some skill and hand strength but not too difficult

[DavidHouston]

A couple of questions:

1. It appears from the recipes that for หัวกะทิ, a given amount of grated, fresh coconut produces a given amount of liquids and that liquid content defines the meaning of หัวกะท. Is that correct? In all these examples, 400 grams of grated coconut produces 1 cup of fluid.

2. If more water is used to produce more liquid, then, by definition, it is not หัวกะท. Is this correct?

3. Does the fineness of the grating make a difference in liquid produced? Does had grating, via the manual rabbit, produce more or less liquid than the electric motor method - the one that looks like a medieval torture machine?

4. If the หัวกะท is heated to produce a "reduction" is the more viscous cream produced the wonderful coconut toping that one finds, for example, on the top of mangoes and sticky rice? Is sugar added to the heated mixture?

Wow, I am all questioned out. Thanks for your help and explanations. (I won't even ask about saturated fats.)

[sbk]

Whew! Lots of questions I don't know the answers too. We don't generally purchase pre-grated coconut or pre-made coconut milk or cream but scrape our own coconuts by hand. Our cook does not like the machine grated type, says it goes off quicker than the hand grated.

I'll try to answer the questions I know

1 & 2. หัวกะทิ uses only a bit of water, if the water is hot its even better. But for น้ำ้็็กะท then it doesn't matter how much water you use as long as you use enough coconut as well--so that your milk doesn't end up too watery. I don't know about the proportions, I learned to cook Thai food from my mother-in-law and my husband. I just go by what feels right .

3. AFAIK (at least from what I have seen here) the grating is about the same, but the liquid produced is based on how much water you add to the grated coconut and how firm a hand you have at squeezing it. At large events (like funerals and weddings) the squeezing task is always left to men to perform as they can get the maximum amount of milk out of the coconut. ( น้ำ้็็กะท --namgatee--is the milk that has not been separated)

4. This one I am not sure. I know that the milk, if left, will separate into cream หัวกะทิ and a whitish water, just like regular milk. I also know that if coconut milk is cooked down it separates again with the oil rising to the top. This is the best kind of curry, obviously, when the milk is so reduced as to be thick and the oil has to be stirred back into the curry. I'll have to ask our cook if she knows how the sweet creamy stuff for sticky rice and mangoes is made.

And I won't go into the saturated fat issue either. I try not to think about it too much

[mangkorn]

One thing I had to try and stop at school was try and dissect every word or phrase like this as I found that it distracted me from understanding the meaning behind what was being said.

That is an excellent bit of advice, khun withnail. (Of course, some of us are often going to try and dissect anyway, because it intrigues us...) But you are right: words and idioms should be accepted and understood by their usage, and context.

It's a very good point: after all, we don't dissect our own "farang" languages too much.

Cheers.

[ngieen]

My cook disagrees with your analysis of coconut cream

หัวกะทิ is the first squeeze

หางกะทิ is the second squeeze

and น้ำกะทิ is the product of the above two

And I have to add, that in the 19 years I have lived here I have never seen someone squeeze coconut gratings 3 times. But then, where I live has an abundance of coconuts.

sorry, I was right . the correct terms is as i wrote:

หัวกะทิ is coconut cream and is the result of the coconut first squeeze. น้ำกะทิ is produced by adding lukewarm water to the already squeezed coconut to get นำกะท (Coconut water). A third squeeze after adding more water will produce the "Coconut tail" or หางกะทิ.

you can find a clear explanation in the book ครัวข้าวแกง from SENGDET publishing company. isbn 974-9665-00-05

In this book most recipes call for two squeezes of the coconut, resulting หัวกะทิ and น้ำกะทิ.

In cases where the recipe calls for a third squeeze the result will be หางกะทิ.

for แกงเป๊ดย่าง the recipe calls for 3 squeezes (pp 144) and the third squeeze is as I said หัวกะทิ.

hope it helps to clear out the misconception regarding the cocunut

[meadish_sweetball]

The Thai version of Wikipedia says the following:

การทำกะทิ

กะทิได้มาจากการนำเนื้อมะพร้าวที่ขูดแล้วมาใส่น้ำอุ่นเล็กน้อยให้พอชุ่ม เคล้าให้ทั่ว และคั้นส่วนผสมผ่านกระชอนหรือผ้าขาวบาง น้ำกะทิที่ได้ในครั้งแรกนี้เรียกว่าหัวกะทิ น้ำกะทิที่ได้จากการคั้นครั้งที่สองหรือสามเรียกว่าหางกะทิ หัวกะทิจะเข้มข้นกว่าหาง และเป็นส่วนผสมหลักในการทำอาหาร

Making coconut milk

Coconut milk is obtained by taking grated coconut flesh and soaking it briefly in warm water, whereafter it is mixed thoroughly. The ingredients are squeezed through a strainer or a thin white cloth. The coconut milk obtained at the first squeeze is called 'hua kathi'. The coconut milk obtained from the second or third squeeze is called 'haang kathi'. 'Hua kathi' is thicker than 'haang kathi' and is a staple ingredient in the preparation of food.

Note that the Thai description uses น้ำกะทิ 'naam kathi' as a general term for both the liquid 'hua kathi' and the liquid 'haang kathi'.

[DavidHouston]

From the RID:

น้ำกะทิ น. นํ้าที่คั้นออกจากมะพร้าวขูด, นํ้าที่คั้นจากมะพร้าวขูดที่ผสมนํ้าตาลปึก กินกับข้าวเหนียวหรือลอดช่องเป็นต้น เช่น ข้าวเหนียวนํ้ากะทิ ลอดช่อง นํ้ากะทิ.

คั้น [V] squeeze; press; compress; pinch

ขูด [V] scrape; chafe; rub; grate

นํ้าตาลปึก - palm sugar in soft cakes

Apparently, then, according to the RID, the term น้ำกะทิ has two definitions and everyone is correct: first, the scrapings and sqeezings from the raw coconut and second, the topping on sticky rice or other deserts, that is, coconut liquid mixed with palm sugar.

My advice? Eat and enjoy!

[ngieen]

The Thai version of Wikipedia says the following:

การทำกะทิ

กะทิได้มาจากการนำเนื้อมะพร้าวที่ขูดแล้วมาใส่น้ำอุ่นเล็กน้อยให้พอชุ่ม เคล้าให้ทั่ว และคั้นส่วนผสมผ่านกระชอนหรือผ้าขาวบาง น้ำกะทิที่ได้ในครั้งแรกนี้เรียกว่าหัวกะทิ น้ำกะทิที่ได้จากการคั้นครั้งที่สองหรือสามเรียกว่าหางกะทิ หัวกะทิจะเข้มข้นกว่าหาง และเป็นส่วนผสมหลักในการทำอาหาร

Making coconut milk

Coconut milk is obtained by taking grated coconut flesh and soaking it briefly in warm water, whereafter it is mixed thoroughly. The ingredients are squeezed through a strainer or a thin white cloth. The coconut milk obtained at the first squeeze is called 'hua kathi'. The coconut milk obtained from the second or third squeeze is called 'haang kathi'. 'Hua kathi' is thicker than 'haang kathi' and is a staple ingredient in the preparation of food.

Note that the Thai description uses น้ำกะทิ 'naam kathi' as a general term for both the liquid 'hua kathi' and the liquid 'haang kathi'.

if you have a 'head' and 'tail' you should have a 'body' in between :-))

I have just pointed out to you that 3 squeezes of coconut does exist in thai recipies. and that these chefs refer to it as 'hua', 'naam' and 'hang'.... i am not sure what would else it will take to prove it 4u