Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[femi fan]

From some of the posts here anybody would think thailand is the wild west.

From my long time living here, both in bkk and chiang mai, and travelling around (about a third of the provinces) i would think it hard to find another country where the likelihood of random violence occurring is so low. This is a very very peaceful country for those that cause no problem.

Often the farang who complain so much have created their own problems with their own pig-headed behaviour.

There are always going to be exceptions to the rule, and it looks like this may be one. But to use this incident to try and paint the whole population in a certain way is rather typical behaviour of some farang who really really should leave this country in order to regain their health.

If a thai went to britain and did some of the things some farangs do over here, yes i agree no copper would kill him. But i'm sure any number of local residents would do the job... And if a thai went there and did nothing wrong whatsoever except stray into the wrong area, he'd likely end up in hospital or a morgue.

So less of these ridiculous comparisons. They're worth nowt.

[geriatrickid]

Perhaps I can bring a little perspective to this tragic case ................. I hope they have successfully answered all the questions that I have posed. I'll be watching with great interest to see what happens.

Absolutely Perfect! ..................... Thanks for the posting Farang Prince

A good piece of educational material. Now if you had said that in a southern drawl, it'd be like being back in my forensic pathology course, except this time around, I'd understand the information. Another hanks for taking the effort and time.

[meom]

What goes around comes around I guess.

Oh, really? So, you think "aggressive" behavior as reported by heresy in a small community of Thais and who knows what foreigners is ground for murder? Unbelievable, and not hard to understand why Thailand has its well-deserved seedy reputation when we hear from expats like you.

Either you have a crush on me or you're telling me to fvk off in diplomatic terms.

It's ok Kat I'm not easily offended and enjoy your postings.

[kat]

Sorry Meom, I was a little harsh.

But, I think you should understand that you are implying justice in the execution-style murder of this young man, and attempted murder of the woman.

[meom]

I suppose you can read it that way although I was more into the karma line of thinking and that the couple somehow due to past actions might have created their own mis fortune. Same goes for the policeman.

[abdulrahman]

One thing I want to point out and has nothing to do with the victims in this case is, I have seen quite a few very wicked farangs in my life, so farangs are not always innocent.

True,and not only in Thailand! In other countries,you don't call them farangs,many other words at your disposition!

But of course there are some thai bullying bastard police out there as well.

Quite a few,a whole lot,far too many!

Rose tinted glasses?No better a** l*****

As a previous poster said,Thaland IS a Third World Country,you may have compelling reasons to stay here,but,unless you are a sex-tourist,better look at alternatives.

[Johpa]

I must say that this thread has become rather entertaining, a virtual version of a speculative group circle jerk with even one of the more reasonable posters speculating on hidden jealousies of Thai policemen. Others showed amazement of long haired, tattooed folks being in Pai. I mean other than the southern islands, and Pai is akin to an isolated island up north, where else in the Kingdom would these folks reside? And of course I did get a chuckle out of the imagined 1000 baht hooker being a "high class" Thai hooker, and of course another poster was too young and virile to be involved in such sex-pat shenanigans, or too much in denial.

But I am a bit concerned about the group gang bang here on Thai cops. Now I am aware that the system relies upon tea money and that the higher ranks of Thai police are indeed a rather nefarious group, and I am aware that it is pretty standard fare for a Thai policeman to have a mia noi to maintain face within the department. (And for those struggling for an understanding of conceptions of face and power in Thai society may I suggest reading Niels Mulder's book on "Everyday Life in Thai Society", long the bible for us older generation of ex-pats) But over the past several decades, my interactions with the Thai police have been, for the most part, rather positive. I have found them to be decent ordinary folks who will treat you pretty decently when you approach them for assistance. The lower ranks are not a group that tends to get roaring drunk and then go out and shoot people although like most all-male groups they do like to drink at times. Yes, there are a few bad apples just as there are in any large group. But the very negative attacks generating into stereotypes simply do not reflect my own experiences with the MIB. Your mileage may vary.

[thaigene2]

I must say that this thread has become rather entertaining, a virtual version of a speculative group circle jerk with even one of the more reasonable posters speculating on hidden jealousies of Thai policemen. Others showed amazement of long haired, tattooed folks being in Pai. I mean other than the southern islands, and Pai is akin to an isolated island up north, where else in the Kingdom would these folks reside? And of course I did get a chuckle out of the imagined 1000 baht hooker being a "high class" Thai hooker, and of course another poster was too young and virile to be involved in such sex-pat shenanigans, or too much in denial.

But I am a bit concerned about the group gang bang here on Thai cops. Now I am aware that the system relies upon tea money and that the higher ranks of Thai police are indeed a rather nefarious group, and I am aware that it is pretty standard fare for a Thai policeman to have a mia noi to maintain face within the department. (And for those struggling for an understanding of conceptions of face and power in Thai society may I suggest reading Niels Mulder's book on "Everyday Life in Thai Society", long the bible for us older generation of ex-pats) But over the past several decades, my interactions with the Thai police have been, for the most part, rather positive. I have found them to be decent ordinary folks who will treat you pretty decently when you approach them for assistance. The lower ranks are not a group that tends to get roaring drunk and then go out and shoot people although like most all-male groups they do like to drink at times. Yes, there are a few bad apples just as there are in any large group. But the very negative attacks generating into stereotypes simply do not reflect my own experiences with the MIB. Your mileage may vary.

Well, whilst I agree with most of what you say, spare a thought for another first-hand truth about the Thai police.

An extended member of my wife's family was killed in (what allegedly) was a drunken brawl (he was Thai). I won't give too much details/locations away here (as I'm sure you will forgive). Suffice it to say that defensive wounds were clearly evident, but it was claimed an accident by the offender and the police supported this - as the cause of death. The offender had a jaewpah village headman connection apparently, who travelled in numbers down to the police station near Bangkok to support the perp's family. You need to understand there were around two-dozen exactly symetrical - I'm an eye witness (same size, and perfectly straight stab wounds on his hand and wrist - e.g. defensive wounds to an attack in any Western society - at least worthy of investigation, no?).

When the father (and my wife and I) attended the police station after viewing the body, the young policeman (detective?) responsible took a statement from the father about his son's (the victim's) past behaviour. "Did he like to drink and cause trouble, get into fights?" The father and daughter said "no". Meantime, this "statement" was typed into the computer as "yes" - by this young guy's girlfriend or Mia Noi (not sure which - but his young squeeze for sure). All the time this little sh+t's gun sat squarly on the small desk between us and them. Who would do that?

So no offence to you Johpa - as I've also met some decent Bangkok cops, one older guy in particular who will retire poor because he won't do the dirty things his bosses have asked of him over the years. He has a shi++y desk job paying crap wages and is clearly not enjoying the 'consumer society' of these other pri=ks. One-offs like this guy aside, the Thai police in general are a rat's nest - a cancer that need to be drowned or irradiated before they can touch anyone else.

[kat]

Sorry, Jopha, but your accusation that we are resorting to stereotypes in our critical discussion of the police force in Thailand has no bearing in popular experience or formal and historical discourse. The evolution of the police in Thailand from local gangster-style, mercenary forces to their current corrupt state has been documented and substantiated in numerous respected books and research.

These are not stereotypes, but facts. Yes, there are good policeman who are an exception to the rule. However, I would never want to test their consistency as a lone Thai cop against the historical and cultural aspects of the Thai criminal/justice apparatus.

4) The suspect fled the scene. This is standard pratice in Thailand. Police and influential criminals know that they have to get away to destroy evidence, let powder marks go away, consult friends who know what to do, concoct a story and negotiate bail before giving themselves up. His friends would have cleaned up the gun, if they thought about the point of the possible lack of Del Pinto's prints and probably several of them would have also handled it after taking it "for safe keeping".

Arkkady, in terms of this being standard practice, do we have any comparisons of Thai police shootings in a non-controversial case of justified force? It seems to me that I have seen examples of Thai police who do stay on the scene after a shooting, in the gory photos and reports in the Thai papers the next day. I think it is only standard when they have a lot to protect by destroying evidence and negotiating their story and bail behind the scenes before "turning themselves in."

[invex]

Listen to this and understand why thai people are afraid; NEVER EVER a thai policeman has been in jail for a short or long period. They ALWAYS go off duty (keep salary) or are moved to another district. Even the worst cases are protected like that. It is not in the law but superiors always find solutions for them. If you not believe, try to find the proofof the contrary; you will not.

So, be warned, they can do what they want and what we know is just the (very small) top of the iceberg.

[thaigene2]

Kat

The gory photos with cops hanging around are usually "professional hits" (some man or woman with hsi/her brains blown out in their Benz or BMW right?) - or traffic accidents.

Not one-on-one stuff

TG2

[Andiamo]

Sorry, Jopha, but your accusation that we are resorting to stereotypes in our critical discussion of the police force in Thailand has no bearing in popular experience or formal and historical discourse. The evolution of the police in Thailand from local gangster-style, mercenary forces to their current corrupt state has been documented and substantiated in numerous respected books and research.

These are not stereotypes, but facts. Yes, there are good policeman who are an exception to the rule. However, I would never want to test their consistency as a lone Thai cop against the historical and cultural aspects of the Thai criminal/justice apparatus.

Sorry Johpa, I have to agree with Kat here. I can only draw on my personal experiences with the Thai Police here, hence my rather negative image of them. As mentioned earlier:-

"It's really quite strange, my mindset whilst living here has done an about-turn, here I would actively avoid Thai Policemen due to previous negative and unsatisfactory experiences when dealing with them. Although I don't like to make generalisations, unfortunately, I have tarred them all with the same brush and they are tainted. Sad but true".

Edited January 9, 2008 by Andiamo

[Dupont]

In my experences here over the last 23 years is that if you mess with a local Thai, there are bound to be consequences....

You got that in one BUT it don't make it right. And we should never ever allow ourselves to accept that it is right.

Best post on this thread for me.

Not accepting it and making a fuss ensures it progressively becomes harder (read more troublesome and stressful) for them to do it. Might not change things on the day but it does over time.

Most of the problem is that too many Thai men have let the Country down by accepting, condoning and supporting this type of behaviour. What do Thai women think of these alcoholic, gambling womanising inadequates who have ensured their poverty down the generations by co-towing to 3rd rate gangsters? Perhaps this is a reason so many of them have, or aspire to have, falang, malaysian, chinese, singaporean partners! Brake the chain of poverty by not breeding with men who will not stand up for you or your family. An almost total lack of knights in shining armour here, always plenty of back up (sheepisly grinning morons) for the criminal.

If the male population of the rest of the world were as cravenly cowardly as many of the "best not to get involved" locals and expats here, there would be no world worth living in.

Get some balls!

EDIT!! Please note, MANY does NOT mean all!

Edited January 9, 2008 by Dupont

[sabaijai]

As none of us really know what went down, I suppose we have to rely on the media. I must say, in defence of the media, that it is a scary task in this country. The much-maligned Drummond is a case in point. I worked for and with him during the three months following Kirsty Jones's murder and grew to hugely admire his professionalism and integrity. He dared and dares still to go where few reporters, especially Thai, will venture. I learnt so many lessons working with him, but importantly, I learnt that I would never be able to do what he does. I simply don't have the balls. Threats from police, threats from all sorts of people, possible career repercussions and personal ones to boot. Can you imagine a local Chiang Mai Reporter - or the Pai Post! - digging into this matter? The story has got to be worth risking your career for because even little old me got threatened by the Fifth Region police after Kirsty Jones.

Obviously the initial reports, which came solely from the Pai police, didn't gel with the reports from the victim, so it will be a while before we can untangle the web of he said, she said.

Anyway, our intrepid reporter is in Pai as we speak, so let's hope that we get some more clarity on this matter.

The problem with Drummond's reporting is the sensationalist angle he tends to apply. But not always--the interview with Reisig was straightforward enough. It will be interesting to hear what he writes next, based on interviews with witnesses and residents in Pai.

I'm just back from Pai, and the observations from those who were present at the crime scene or its immediate periphery all run parallel, boiling down to 'two farang were fighting with one another near Daeng's restaurant; Daeng asked Sgt Uthai to do something about the fight; Uthai went to break it up; the two farang turned on him and started attacking him; Uthai pulled his gun, there was more struggling and shots were fired.'

The editors of the Pai Post have finished a news article on the shooting that will appear in the next issue, out next week, or so I've been told.

[Arkady]

Sorry, Jopha, but your accusation that we are resorting to stereotypes in our critical discussion of the police force in Thailand has no bearing in popular experience or formal and historical discourse. The evolution of the police in Thailand from local gangster-style, mercenary forces to their current corrupt state has been documented and substantiated in numerous respected books and research.

These are not stereotypes, but facts. Yes, there are good policeman who are an exception to the rule. However, I would never want to test their consistency as a lone Thai cop against the historical and cultural aspects of the Thai criminal/justice apparatus.

4) The suspect fled the scene. This is standard pratice in Thailand. Police and influential criminals know that they have to get away to destroy evidence, let powder marks go away, consult friends who know what to do, concoct a story and negotiate bail before giving themselves up. His friends would have cleaned up the gun, if they thought about the point of the possible lack of Del Pinto's prints and probably several of them would have also handled it after taking it "for safe keeping".

Arkkady, in terms of this being standard practice, do we have any comparisons of Thai police shootings in a non-controversial case of justified force? It seems to me that I have seen examples of Thai police who do stay on the scene after a shooting, in the gory photos and reports in the Thai papers the next day. I think it is only standard when they have a lot to protect by destroying evidence and negotiating their story and bail behind the scenes before "turning themselves in."

Yes, that's really what I meant - that they flee the scene when things look bad as a result of a killing that was not directly sanctioned from above and they have nothing to gain by being arrested immediately. When they have shot dead a robber who has just murdered the local goldsmith's wife and is running out of the shop waving a gun and a bag marked swag, they stick around.

[cmiuc]

If this was a legitimate call as is being published... one thing comes to my mind...

With his revolver, isn't there a radio also enclosed with the caption, "Call for backup"????

I think in most countries if a cop is off duty, then he suppose to call for backup and not to intervene?

So, with just the logical, police force training, this should have been an automatic matter.

My 2 satangs worth.

[DamianMavis]

As none of us really know what went down, I suppose we have to rely on the media. I must say, in defence of the media, that it is a scary task in this country. The much-maligned Drummond is a case in point. I worked for and with him during the three months following Kirsty Jones's murder and grew to hugely admire his professionalism and integrity. He dared and dares still to go where few reporters, especially Thai, will venture. I learnt so many lessons working with him, but importantly, I learnt that I would never be able to do what he does. I simply don't have the balls. Threats from police, threats from all sorts of people, possible career repercussions and personal ones to boot. Can you imagine a local Chiang Mai Reporter - or the Pai Post! - digging into this matter? The story has got to be worth risking your career for because even little old me got threatened by the Fifth Region police after Kirsty Jones.

Obviously the initial reports, which came solely from the Pai police, didn't gel with the reports from the victim, so it will be a while before we can untangle the web of he said, she said.

Anyway, our intrepid reporter is in Pai as we speak, so let's hope that we get some more clarity on this matter.

The problem with Drummond's reporting is the sensationalist angle he tends to apply. But not always--the interview with Reisig was straightforward enough. It will be interesting to hear what he writes next, based on interviews with witnesses and residents in Pai.

I'm just back from Pai, and the observations from those who were present at the crime scene or its immediate periphery all run parallel, boiling down to 'two farang were fighting with one another near Daeng's restaurant; Daeng asked Sgt Uthai to do something about the fight; Uthai went to break it up; the two farang turned on him and started attacking him; Uthai pulled his gun, there was more struggling and shots were fired.'

The editors of the Pai Post have finished a news article on the shooting that will appear in the next issue, out next week, or so I've been told.

What about the poster who says he knows the shooter and talked to witnesses that contradict you? Im too lazy to go back and quote him, but you read it and have avoided commenting on it. So what do you think?

I'm still truly shocked you dont suspect AT ALL that the witnesses you talked to are saying the only thing they can say to keep themselves ALIVE..... it is pretty clear in this country you do not stand/talk against a police officer, common sense. You don't think this is the case at all? They did just witness the man do a horrible killing... right in their face proof that they need to watch what they say. So they say what they are told to say... no?

Johnpa: to further dissuade you from your opinion on Thai police I'll throw in my crappy story yet again (oh no Thai bashing again!): I brought my close female foreign friend to the Thonglor police station to report her kidnapping and rape, after giving her story to the LEERING SMILING young officer downstairs we were brought upstairs to tell a room full of older cops (maybe 7 of them) all eagerly wanting to hear her tell the details until she became a ball of quivering sobbing mush, then they threatened to deport me. Outrage doesnt even begin to touch on what I felt.

Damian

[sabaijai]

As none of us really know what went down, I suppose we have to rely on the media. I must say, in defence of the media, that it is a scary task in this country. The much-maligned Drummond is a case in point. I worked for and with him during the three months following Kirsty Jones's murder and grew to hugely admire his professionalism and integrity. He dared and dares still to go where few reporters, especially Thai, will venture. I learnt so many lessons working with him, but importantly, I learnt that I would never be able to do what he does. I simply don't have the balls. Threats from police, threats from all sorts of people, possible career repercussions and personal ones to boot. Can you imagine a local Chiang Mai Reporter - or the Pai Post! - digging into this matter? The story has got to be worth risking your career for because even little old me got threatened by the Fifth Region police after Kirsty Jones.

Obviously the initial reports, which came solely from the Pai police, didn't gel with the reports from the victim, so it will be a while before we can untangle the web of he said, she said.

Anyway, our intrepid reporter is in Pai as we speak, so let's hope that we get some more clarity on this matter.

The problem with Drummond's reporting is the sensationalist angle he tends to apply. But not always--the interview with Reisig was straightforward enough. It will be interesting to hear what he writes next, based on interviews with witnesses and residents in Pai.

I'm just back from Pai, and the observations from those who were present at the crime scene or its immediate periphery all run parallel, boiling down to 'two farang were fighting with one another near Daeng's restaurant; Daeng asked Sgt Uthai to do something about the fight; Uthai went to break it up; the two farang turned on him and started attacking him; Uthai pulled his gun, there was more struggling and shots were fired.'

The editors of the Pai Post have finished a news article on the shooting that will appear in the next issue, out next week, or so I've been told.

I'm still truly shocked you dont suspect AT ALL that the witnesses you talked to are saying the only thing they can say to keep themselves ALIVE..... it is pretty clear in this country you do not stand/talk against a police officer, common sense. You don't think this is the case at all? They did just witness the man do a horrible killing... right in their face proof that they need to watch what they say. So they say what they are told to say... no?

Nope. The witnesses I talked to aren't as gutless as you presume. No one in town fears this policeman, he's a total mess now, probably of more danger to himself than anyone else at this point.

In addition, he has no history of violence, has never shot anyone before, and has made no threats to anyone. Townspeople who know the policeman say he is nothing but apologetic and regretful over the shooting.

The police have already charged him with murder and he won't beat that rap even if it's believed he was provoked/attacked.

[Claymore]

As none of us really know what went down, I suppose we have to rely on the media. I must say, in defence of the media, that it is a scary task in this country. The much-maligned Drummond is a case in point. I worked for and with him during the three months following Kirsty Jones's murder and grew to hugely admire his professionalism and integrity. He dared and dares still to go where few reporters, especially Thai, will venture. I learnt so many lessons working with him, but importantly, I learnt that I would never be able to do what he does. I simply don't have the balls. Threats from police, threats from all sorts of people, possible career repercussions and personal ones to boot. Can you imagine a local Chiang Mai Reporter - or the Pai Post! - digging into this matter? The story has got to be worth risking your career for because even little old me got threatened by the Fifth Region police after Kirsty Jones.

Obviously the initial reports, which came solely from the Pai police, didn't gel with the reports from the victim, so it will be a while before we can untangle the web of he said, she said.

Anyway, our intrepid reporter is in Pai as we speak, so let's hope that we get some more clarity on this matter.

The problem with Drummond's reporting is the sensationalist angle he tends to apply. But not always--the interview with Reisig was straightforward enough. It will be interesting to hear what he writes next, based on interviews with witnesses and residents in Pai.

I'm just back from Pai, and the observations from those who were present at the crime scene or its immediate periphery all run parallel, boiling down to 'two farang were fighting with one another near Daeng's restaurant; Daeng asked Sgt Uthai to do something about the fight; Uthai went to break it up; the two farang turned on him and started attacking him; Uthai pulled his gun, there was more struggling and shots were fired.'

The editors of the Pai Post have finished a news article on the shooting that will appear in the next issue, out next week, or so I've been told.

He's a journalist. Tends to be on the big crime stories on the region. Seems they are pretty sensational by themselves. Dont think he writes the headlines.

example? Guess he knows a lot more by now.

[thaigene2]

The problem with Drummond's reporting is the sensationalist angle he tends to apply. But not always--the interview with Reisig was straightforward enough. It will be interesting to hear what he writes next, based on interviews with witnesses and residents in Pai.

Okay - look I don't know you so nothing personal (okay - but since I got a hiding from the Mod-of-the-day, plus a deletion, I want to ask you directly..

Since you're a 'super - moderator' I can't question "your moderation calls". Well let me question your posting then. That ok? What's with the "sensationalist angle he tends to apply" - examples please!

I'm just back from Pai, and the observations from those who were present at the crime scene or its immediate periphery all run parallel, boiling down to 'two farang were fighting with one another near Daeng's restaurant; Daeng asked Sgt Uthai to do something about the fight; Uthai went to break it up; the two farang turned on him and started attacking him; Uthai pulled his gun, there was more struggling and shots were fired.'

The editors of the Pai Post have finished a news article on the shooting that will appear in the next issue, out next week, or so I've been told.

Gee can't wait for that - can you? If senior reporters from the Thai venacular press are in the pockets of police and pooyai, I'm sure this weekly in "where-is-Pai-anyway-gazette" will inform us all of the real truth.

Sabaijai - you are a super-moderator. I therefore want to know from you the truth - since you have chosen to publish your posts and not act as a moderator . In your opinion, did this cop shoot two tourists in cold-blood becuase he was scared, or for whatever reason? Is that the story? If you want to engage in the debate, I have a right to ask you this since you now say you are involved in investigations!

Edited January 9, 2008 by thaigene2

[Stephen Cleary]

According to interviews with folk in Pai who knew Carly, she is not a person to be admired.

According to first hand sources, Carly had had several nasty encounters with the police in Pai before, and was known to have wayward tendencies when under the influence of alcohol. This was not her first run-in with the police - and this has been stated by Farangs in Pai, just today.

More and more of what of i have heard today, has certainly led me to believe that Carly (although she is certainly a victim) has made quite a few stories up from her hospital bed.

And no, Andy Drummond did not compile that story himself. He was given it.

Edited January 9, 2008 by Stephen Cleary

[sabaijai]

thaigen2, in my opinion it's too early to draw any definitive conclusions about the case.

I don't have much faith in Thai law enforcement or the court system, or in independent journalism, for that matter, whether it's the Pai Post or the London Times . But perhaps the truth will come out eventually.

For the moment it all reminds one of the film Rashomon.

[DamianMavis]

thaigen2, in my opinion it's too early to draw any definitive conclusions about the case.

I don't have much faith in Thai law enforcement or the court system, or in independent journalism, for that matter, whether it's the Pai Post or the London Times . But perhaps the truth will come out eventually.

For the moment it all reminds one of the film Rashomon.

RASHOMON! OMG thanks! I've been trying to remember the title of that movie and have been wanting to buy it forever, this is the one about the different recounting of a crime story by several witnesses right? Awesome.

The other poster that said he knows the cop said he DOES have a bad history and has had his gun REVOKED and he just got it back prior to killing! So uh... hmmmm how do you know he hasnt exactly?

As for the witnesses not being afraid of this cop... they have a whole department to worry about. Has anyone ever heard of a cop going to jail in Thailand? Has anyone ever heard of a Thai witness testifying against a thai cop or trying to hold them accountable for anything? I havent..... Anyway, I'm not saying what I believe is the only possible truth, I could be wrong. But to me its obvious that no poor Thai person is going to speak against any cop, it is extremely stupid and unhealthy. The only ones above them are the rich and powerful and military and they are the only ones that can hold them accountable for anything whether legally or illegally.

Damian

[kat]

thaigen2, in my opinion it's too early to draw any definitive conclusions about the case.

I don't have much faith in Thai law enforcement or the court system, or in independent journalism, for that matter, whether it's the Pai Post or the London Times . But perhaps the truth will come out eventually.

For the moment it all reminds one of the film Rashomon.

Well, at least I can agree with your film tastes.

[sriracha john]

Thai villagers contradict story told after Calgarian killed

People in a northern Thai village are disputing a Canadian woman's version of what led to the death of Calgarian Leo Del Pinto.

Carly Reisig, who has been moved out of intensive care in a Chiang Mai hospital, said she and Del Pinto were walking in Pai, Thailand, on Sunday when a man hit her on the forehead for no apparent reason.

Del Pinto, 25, shoved the man back in her defence and was fatally shot in the face and torso, said Reisig, who was then shot in the chest.

But Andrew Drummond, a journalist based in Bangkok, reports villagers have a different story.

"There are witnesses in Pai today saying, 'No, it wasn't the policeman who struck the first blow. It was Carly, that Carly and Leo were having a fight in the street and the policeman was summoned to calm them down and Carly attacked him.'

"Of course you have to take this all with a little bit of a pinch of salt. Nobody in Pai is going to give evidence against their local policeman," said Drummond, explaining that residents are afraid of the local police.

A Thai police officer has been charged with premeditated murder in Del Pinto's death and with "intent to kill" in Reisig's shooting. Reports indicate he is free on bail.

Police had earlier reported the pair had a fight while drinking at a bar. The fight escalated outside and turned physical when a police officer tried to intervene, according to Col. Sombat Panya of Pai district in northern Mae Hong Son.

Villagers told Drummond that Reisig, originally from Chilliwack, B.C., was a troublemaker in Pai.

Drummond said that they alleged she had a month earlier hit a policeman in a bar after a fight, reportedly started by an Israeli tourist.

"[Villagers] said she was involved in a fight at a party somewhere else.

"It's difficult to find somebody to say something on her behalf in the village of Pai at the moment."

Meanwhile, Del Pinto's family said they expect to have his body back in Calgary by Saturday but they still have not received a formal written report on the shooting.

CBC News

[sabaijai]

thaigen2, in my opinion it's too early to draw any definitive conclusions about the case.

I don't have much faith in Thai law enforcement or the court system, or in independent journalism, for that matter, whether it's the Pai Post or the London Times . But perhaps the truth will come out eventually.

For the moment it all reminds one of the film Rashomon.

RASHOMON! OMG thanks! I've been trying to remember the title of that movie and have been wanting to buy it forever, this is the one about the different recounting of a crime story by several witnesses right? Awesome.

The other poster that said he knows the cop said he DOES have a bad history and has had his gun REVOKED and he just got it back prior to killing! So uh... hmmmm how do you know he hasnt exactly?

As for the witnesses not being afraid of this cop... they have a whole department to worry about. Has anyone ever heard of a cop going to jail in Thailand? Has anyone ever heard of a Thai witness testifying against a thai cop or trying to hold them accountable for anything? I havent..... Anyway, I'm not saying what I believe is the only possible truth, I could be wrong. But to me its obvious that no poor Thai person is going to speak against any cop, it is extremely stupid and unhealthy. The only ones above them are the rich and powerful and military and they are the only ones that can hold them accountable for anything whether legally or illegally.

Damian

Damian, it's time you made a trip to Pai yourself and started asking around. Conduct your own investigation, and judge for yourself, rather than relying on what you know or think you know about Thai police elsewhere in Thailand. I think you'll quickly find that virtually no one in Pai is afraid that local police will avenge the prosecution of Sgt Uthai (despite Drummond quotations in the latest CBC news story). I'm not saying there's nothing to fear from the Pai police (far from it), but not, seemingly, in this case.

Which post talks of Sgt Uthai's 'bad history' and so on, could you provide the post number? I don't recall reading it. I've heard from Pai residents who know him that Uthai has had recent mental health issues, possibly sparked by a relationship dissolution and/or a traffic accident.

[sriracha john]

More Rashomon...

Girl who witnessed friend being shot by Thai policeman denies being a troublemaker

Canadian Carly Reisig, who witnessed her best friend being shot to death by a Thai policeman before being shot herself, last night denied being a troublemaker.

But she admitted that she had been involved in heated rows in the past in the picturesque hill tribe village of Pai near the Burma border - and had herself struck a Thai policeman.

Reisig, 24, who has stars tattooed in her left eyelid, said that two months prior to the arrival of Leo del Pinto, also 24, from Calgary, she had intervened after a scuffle broke out in a bar involving an Israeli tourist and a former Thai boyfriend called ‘Nui’.

“The Israeli guy hit my Thai boyfriend and I tried to break it up but I couldn’t. Then the police came and took them outside and they circled around Nui and were pushing him, so I got involved.

“I went in there and hit one of the cops. I was very drunk that night. The cops took us both to the police station and made us give urine samples. The test came out clear and they let us both go.”

On another occasion she said she was involved in a fight at a regular party at a nearby arts market called Pittalew with her current boyfriend Rattaporn Varawadee nicknamed Fuen.

“We had our first fight. We were sitting on the bench together, and then I started crying and walked off. I was walking around crying but neither of us touched anyone else.”

Ms Reisig adamantly stuck to her claim that Police Sergeant Major Uthai Dechawiwat was the one who struck the first blow early last Sunday morning as she was walking from the Be-Bop bar in Pai to the Bamboo Bar.

“Things are a bit foggy. I can’t quite remember what happened before the incident, But I can remember everything very clearly from the time that man hit me in the face.

“Leo and I were always messing around and play fighting noisily. We might have even been yelling at each other, play-fighting - but not in anger, it was just our way of kidding around, having fun. We never fought in anger. But even if we were fighting, we weren’t hurting anybody else. It didn’t give anyone the right to shoot us.

“I don’t feel at all responsible for the shooting. The guy who did this was crazy.”

Last night as the sunset on Pai, a former by-water which has been taken over in the last 3 years by a massive backpacker invasion, two Thai witnesses said they insisted it was Carly not the policeman who started the fight.

Kanasphuchit Sankam, the owner of a karaoke bar who was eating at the noodles at the time said: “I watched the couple come up, punching each other and yelling.

“It didn’t look like they were pretending, it looked like a real fight, they were shouting loudly and punching each other, but I don’t know what the fight was about.

“They even knocked over one of the motorbikes that was parked on the bridge. I watched Uthai go over to try and stop the fight.

He said ‘Stop, I am police’ and held out his hand in front of him, with his other hand ready to draw his gun. They pushed him over and he got his gun out.

“The girl started crying loudly and he told her to calm down and go and sit down. The policeman then started walking away from the scene, but the girl got up and hit him.

“Leo then joined her in hitting him and they all fell onto the ground. I couldn’t see them anymore because of the parked cars, but I then heard three shots go off. If the girl had not provoked him, nothing would have happened.”

A similar story in almost identical words was told by Saijai Gawin the owner of the noodle shop.

The Thai police investigator Lt-Colonel Sombat Panya has already given a reason for the couple fighting. He said Leo Del Pinto, who recently arrived in Thailand, found out that Reisig had become pregnant with a Thai man known as Fuen.

Associated Press has quoted Sombat Panya as saying that the foetus ‘was unharmed’ - although Ms Reisig denies being pregnant.

As in the case of British backpackers Vanessa Arscott,23, and Adam Lloyd who were gunned down by a Thai policeman in Kanchanaburi by the River Kwai in Thailand in 2004 it seems unlikely that Ms Reisig will be able to produce any witnesses in Thailand to prove her side of the story.

Her current Thai boyfriend, while claiming the shootings had no justification, is reluctant to say any more. Ms Reisig’s willingness to go out with local Thai men will not have helped her image in a society which regards western women as ‘easy’.

Four years ago in Kanchanaburi, western Thailand, Briton Adam Lloyd was gunned down by Police Sergeant Somchai Wisetsingh and then got into his Volvo car and ran down Vanessa dragging her body under the car along the riverside road.

He then got out and as she clung to an electric pylon shot her in the head, neck and chest.

In the ensuing furor stories were put out that Vanessa had slept with Wisetsingh and had returned to the town to see him again.

There were several witnesses to the shooting. They would not go to court but were able to tell the victim’s parents exactly what happened. Each one said they were scared to give evidence against the local police.

In the case of the death of John Leo del Pinto it seems the only reliable evidence may be forensic, and hope of a satisfactory conclusion for the young man’s family may be down to close monitoring of the case by the media, Canadian government and lawyers.

The grouping of the shots is vital. But there already appears to be an answer as to why the gun fired. “Police told me that their guns do not have safety catches,” a local reporter said last night.

- By Owen Williams, Jan 09 2008 © Copyright 2008

Edited January 9, 2008 by sriracha john

[JungleJim]

The real issue at stake here (events aside) is why an off duty policeman is allowed to carry his gun around whilst in plain clothes. If he had not had his gun with him, the victim would still be alive and his girlfriend/wife would not be in a hospital bed.

At worst, if the farang aggression is to be believed, the cop would have a few minor injuries, the supposed antagonists would be banged up for assault and we wouldn't be discussing this.

I truly hope (in vain) that as a result of this tragic incident, the police/government enforce the law concerning the carrying of guns off duty. The law is black and white on this issue. Unfortunately, most cops consider themselves to be above the law. That shit is for the common man, backed up by the filth at the top who will do anything in their power to protect one of their own.

The way the police force is managed (training, funding, pay, accountability, etc) is in dire need of an overhaul before your average Thai/expat/tourist/random gets the protection that these jumped up mafioso are institutionally incapable of providing.

[Wrong Turn]

After reading this entire thread, and all of its post, it is so sad and silly.

I hate to say this, but some folks were not born with common sense, or did not learn to exercise common sense.

They (the tourists) sound messed up.

[sriracha john]

Uthai's first photo...

Sgt. Uthai Dechawiwat, right, acts out how he was knocked over a motorcycle in the tussle with Carly Reisig and Leo Del Pinto.

We were playfighting, victim says

A woman recovering from a bullet wound to her chest in a shooting that also saw a Calgary man killed said they were playfighting but causing no harm when an off-duty police officer intervened and pulled out a gun.

Carly Reisig, speaking from her hospital bed in Chiang Mai, said she and Calgarian Leo Del Pinto had a playfighting relationship and may have been loud after they left a bar in the northern Thai town of Pai early Sunday morning.

"We hadn't seen each other in a long time," she said. "We weren't causing any harm to each other."

Reisig has been in hospital since early Sunday morning after she and Del Pinto, 25, were shot. Del Pinto died at the scene.

A police officer has been charged with premeditated murder and attempted murder in the case.

Reisig said the officer, who did not identify himself, punched her as she and Del Pinto were walking down the road.

Del Pinto rushed to defend Reisig and pushed the man, who then pulled out a gun. After struggling to gain control of the pistol, Del Pinto was shot in the head and chest. Reisig was also shot in the chest, the bullet narrowly missing her heart.

Witnesses reported Del Pinto and Reisig had been arguing and Sgt. Uthai Dechawiwat had been asked to intervene.

Dechawiwat has been released as the investigation continues

- Calgary Herald

Edited January 9, 2008 by sriracha john