Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[femi fan]

It's quite normal farang bahavior to talk about how life should be in thailand. They spend inordinate amounts of time pontificating about this and that bad thing about thai way of life. And how it's so much better back home.

It is always of amazement to me how people can rail on so much about a country they have moved to, yet continue to stay in their own cesspool that they feel they live in.

I strongly disagree with what you're assuming here. For me and I'm pretty sure many others, we'd like a level playing field (just like Thais expect when they move to my country), government policies that aren't based on race/nationality and a modicum of law enforcement that doesn't allow cops or anyone else to get away with murder.

I don't recall too many posters talking about how much better it is back home. We talk about some aspects of 'back home' being better, but we don't make such general sweeping statements... from what I've read.

If you don't like debates such as the one on this thread, you can skip it and read some that fall within your definition of acceptable farang behavior.

I wasn't assuming anything. Yes, i too would like a level playing field, but the gist of my post was that we can go on all we like about how things 'should' be rather than the way things actually are. In our own countries, we can fight to bridge the gap between should and is, but not here in thailand. That is a fact, whether it's palatable or not.

I would suggest that my rights in this country after 16 years here are pathetic. But it's a price i'm personally paying. A great distinction between thailand and, say, britain, is that here we get no rights and have government with not very good attitudes towards farang, while thais will get the same rights if they live and work in britain as locals. But on the other hand, the attitude and behaviour of general thai people (and many coppers) toward farang is far more positive and safe than the other way round.

Farang in thailand: good reception by local people, bad one by government.

Foreigners in britain: good reception by government and laws of the land, bad one by the local people.

It's all about what 'is' in life, not what we think it should be.

Edited January 10, 2008 by femi fan

[joskydive]

What I also find surprising here is that no member of the girls family has come to support her when she almost lost her life too. If it were my daughter, nothing and no-one would stop me from being by her side no matter where in the world she is.

[Claymore]

Well, right now I am interested in collecting the dubious explanations from both sides, as well as any other evidence we can get. Based on just what we have now, it seems the cop was definitely in the wrong to shoot them in what appears to be an execution style attempt, but if they hit and rushed an armed cop, they contributed to the fatal outcome. I'm not sure, but I think forensics may be able to tell us likely scenarios of how del Pinto was shot.

*Arkady, I didn't see your post until after I posted. Do you or anyone else know how far forensics can get in judging how Del Pinto was shot once he is back in Canada?

Arkady is spot on again in his final conclusion. I get the feeling he's either on the spot, or has the Thai system down to a 'T'. Its down to forensics as was the Kanchanaburi case. In particular it is down to the bullets in Leo's body and at what angle they were fired. It seems local police are controlling the forensics. No sign of Pornthip. But tf the body is not too tampered with the Canadian's will be able to do their own Post Mortem.

If you notice Drummond's or Showbiz Spy's copy there was no witness to the actual shooting, only the run up to it. The witnesses said it all happened behind parked cars. That seems to be very convenient. One of the witnesses I am told is also married to a policeman.

[Tolley]

No Thai that lives in the area is going to testify against the policeman especially given the unstable nature of this guy and fact that he has killed one person already.

Your average Thai person is very wary of the police and with very good reason. They can do what they like and get away with it in most cases.

The moniker of the Land Of Smiles is really wearing thin these days.

[Arkady]

Well, right now I am interested in collecting the dubious explanations from both sides, as well as any other evidence we can get. Based on just what we have now, it seems the cop was definitely in the wrong to shoot them in what appears to be an execution style attempt, but if they hit and rushed an armed cop, they contributed to the fatal outcome. I'm not sure, but I think forensics may be able to tell us likely scenarios of how del Pinto was shot.

*Arkady, I didn't see your post until after I posted. Do you or anyone else know how far forensics can get in judging how Del Pinto was shot once he is back in Canada?

Kat, I can remember at least one case where a foreigner died in suspicious circumstances and the family had an autopsy done on the body after it had been shipped home, after they and/or their embassy failed to get permission from the police for an independent autopsy in Thailand. In that case the body was held for quite a long time by the Thai police, making the job harder, and the foreign pathologist also complained that the police pathologist had messed up the body either deliberately or through incompetence, so he couldn't determine anything of value. So probably very little hope of a pathologist in Canada being of coming up with anything but foreign pathologists evidence can easily be dismissed anyway, as judges are much more likely to credit the police pathology report. In the Hangthong case, Pornthip got a leading Scottish pathologist to support her view of murder but the extremely well funded defence shopped around for an American pathologist who supported the police forensic view of suicide which won the day, no matter how preposterous it was.

What I know about forensic pathology in Thailand came from Pornthip herself. She works for the DSI which is part of the Justice Ministry and is not under the police. She is at permanent daggers drawn with the police and says she believes she would have been murdered long ago, if she were a man. Pornthip's forensic unit is very underfunded and she has a very small number of pathologists, all based in and around Bangkok. The police have their own forensic pathology department which is much bigger but still very small by Western standards. According to Pornthip the police pathologists are notorious for slanting reports to suit the police view and for destroying evidence to make it unusable for other pathologists (hardly surprising since they are policemen themselves). In Pai it is highly unlikely that any trained pathologist showed up at the crime scene, so the crime scene evidence would all have been collected by police investigators who are usually incompetant, even if they are unbiased, and often let bystanders and journalists interfere with evidence. Since there has been no mention of Pornthip or the DSI, we can assume that the autopsy was performed by a police pathologist.

[grantbkk]

British coppers didn't get into much trouble for shooting that Brazilian man on the underground.

That old chestnut again - it was dealt with pages ago.

If you can not differentiate in the circumstances then nothing I can say will change your mind.

Please forgive me for not fully absorbing the full volume of codswallop being spouted by our jury of exports.

What are we exporting?

Maybe we should train the Thai plod's - Reisig would not be alive if it was a British copper doing the shooting!

What a joke. Do you know how long it would take to find armed backup in some parts of England? A gun would be way too much responsibility for the average Bobbie. Great system in this day and age. It is probably a good thing the Bobbies can't carry guns if they think killing an eyewitness would solve the case. British cops imparting firearms training to the Thais!

[TAWP]

The witness reports are too perfect... they even claim the cop identified himself as a police officer, every base covered...... he is not going to be punished with ANYTHING...... mark my words and watch, down the road when this is all over he will be completely untouched.

More info.

Judging by the state he normally gets into, he would barely have been capable of standing up and would be the most unsuitable person i can imagine to intervene in a domestic with anyone, let alone a farang couple especially as his english is very bad and next to impossible to understand when he is drunk.

The witnesses will say that he walked up to the couple, held out his hand and in clear and loud English (native speaker level) presented himself to be a police officer off duty. So loud that everyone could hear it. The couple then attacked him in drunken rage. It will be a clear cut case of acquittal.

[Foggy Bottom]

What I know about forensic pathology in Thailand came from Pornthip herself. She works for the DSI which is part of the Justice Ministry and is not under the police. She is at permanent daggers drawn with the police and says she believes she would have been murdered long ago, if she were a man. Pornthip's forensic unit is very underfunded and she has a very small number of pathologists, all based in and around Bangkok. The police have their own forensic pathology department which is much bigger but still very small by Western standards. According to Pornthip the police pathologists are notorious for slanting reports to suit the police view and for destroying evidence to make it unusable for other pathologists (hardly surprising since they are policemen themselves). In Pai it is highly unlikely that any trained pathologist showed up at the crime scene, so the crime scene evidence would all have been collected by police investigators who are usually incompetant, even if they are unbiased, and often let bystanders and journalists interfere with evidence. Since there has been no mention of Pornthip or the DSI, we can assume that the autopsy was performed by a police pathologist.

A completely unthoughtout idea struck me when reading the highlighted bit of Arkady's post .......

Wonder how amenable Pornthip and her department would be to an "insurance fund" into which farangs contribute annually as an assurance that in the event of the farangs' meeting a suspicious death, Pornthip's department is guaranteed to do the forensic analysis. No idea how it could be worked without cries of preferential treatment or corruption being bandied about though.

If done correctly, with the assistance of people who count, it could (drifting off into cuckoo land here) lead to a position where local plods and forensics ONLY duty in the event of any farang killing would be seal the scene until DSI arrive as if .....

OK, now I need a coffee so I can wake up

[TAWP]

Glock handguns are semi-automatic weapons that do not have safety catches in the traditional sense. The manufacture and gun users rely on extensive training and discipline to operate the weapon safely. The Glock handguns are widely available worldwide and are a preferred sidearm of BIB. That said, it would be next to impossible to get off three shots accidentally. The shooter would have to have a uncontrolled spasm caused by injury or disease to get that many shots off without thinking. This case probably involves a "fight or flight" reaction of the shooter and in a second before the shooting decided to "fight". Perhaps like everything illegal in Thailand, like off-duty police officers carrying guns, controls should be instituted to enforce the laws and rules that are in place for a reason.

Many semiautomatic handguns that have safeties aren't *locked* from firing, for safety reasons you are still abel to fire under extreme stress, it just requires double the pressure on the trigger. And for the record, the most important safety - as anyone will learn - is the correct placement of your fingering finger. Never ever put it on he trigger unless you need to be immediately ready to fire at reaction-time. Having it in semi-ready position along the side on the body of the gun (often just below the slide) will only slightly heighten your time until reaction-shot can get off but increases the safety tenfold.

Have uniformed monkeys with minimal weapon-training and you a recipe for disaster.

[Arkady]

What I know about forensic pathology in Thailand came from Pornthip herself. She works for the DSI which is part of the Justice Ministry and is not under the police. She is at permanent daggers drawn with the police and says she believes she would have been murdered long ago, if she were a man. Pornthip's forensic unit is very underfunded and she has a very small number of pathologists, all based in and around Bangkok. The police have their own forensic pathology department which is much bigger but still very small by Western standards. According to Pornthip the police pathologists are notorious for slanting reports to suit the police view and for destroying evidence to make it unusable for other pathologists (hardly surprising since they are policemen themselves). In Pai it is highly unlikely that any trained pathologist showed up at the crime scene, so the crime scene evidence would all have been collected by police investigators who are usually incompetant, even if they are unbiased, and often let bystanders and journalists interfere with evidence. Since there has been no mention of Pornthip or the DSI, we can assume that the autopsy was performed by a police pathologist.

A completely unthoughtout idea struck me when reading the highlighted bit of Arkady's post .......

Wonder how amenable Pornthip and her department would be to an "insurance fund" into which farangs contribute annually as an assurance that in the event of the farangs' meeting a suspicious death, Pornthip's department is guaranteed to do the forensic analysis. No idea how it could be worked without cries of preferential treatment or corruption being bandied about though.

If done correctly, with the assistance of people who count, it could (drifting off into cuckoo land here) lead to a position where local plods and forensics ONLY duty in the event of any farang killing would be seal the scene until DSI arrive as if .....

OK, now I need a coffee so I can wake up

Good idea but would reek of the old extraterritorial rights for foreigners from the major powers who were by treaty until about 1930 not subject to the Thai justice system which they claimed was too primitive and barbaric to arrest and try people from civilised countries. Even though the Thais have abandoned the public beheadings and floggings since then, the basic premise is still unfortunately true. But things are much worse for poor Thais.

[Arkady]

Just spotted this from Calgary Herald. For full story see http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national...d67&k=36551

".........An American who used to live in the town where the shooting occurred said he believes Reisig's version of events, largely because the accused officer has a reputation for gunplay.

The Florida native, who wished to be identified only as Rob, lived in the northern Thai town of Pai for eight months and is an acquaintance of both Reisig and her Thai boyfriend.

Rob told the Vancouver Province from his current home in Chiang Mai that he attended a concert in Pai in the fall of 2006 during which the officer fired into the air several times.

"He was drunk. All the off-duty officers were drinking together," said Rob. "He fired his weapon into the air and everyone had to scatter. He has a reputation in town for pulling out his weapon."

He said Dechawiwat is known in the town of 2,500 "for not behaving the way a sergeant should, even when he's not on duty."

Andrew Drummond, a journalist in Bangkok, told the CBC there are villagers backing up the officer's story that it was Reisig who attacked the officer first, after he was called to calm her and Del Pinto down.

"Of course, you have to take this all with a little bit of a pinch of salt. Nobody in Pai is going to give evidence against their local policeman," Drummond said, explaining Pai residents are afraid of the police.

Reisig, whose medical insurance ran out three days before the shooting, has been moved out of intensive care.

"I think we're all concerned about (Carly's medical bills) at this point, because we don't know what's going to happen," said her mother, Suzanne Reisig, in Chilliwack, B.C.

"I'm sure it will be thousands.""

[girlx]

What I also find surprising here is that no member of the girls family has come to support her when she almost lost her life too. If it were my daughter, nothing and no-one would stop me from being by her side no matter where in the world she is.

not everyone has nice families

[Thai at Heart]

More Rashomon...

Girl who witnessed friend being shot by Thai policeman denies being a troublemaker

Canadian Carly Reisig, who witnessed her best friend being shot to death by a Thai policeman before being shot herself, last night denied being a troublemaker.

But she admitted that she had been involved in heated rows in the past in the picturesque hill tribe village of Pai near the Burma border - and had herself struck a Thai policeman.

Reisig, 24, who has stars tattooed in her left eyelid, said that two months prior to the arrival of Leo del Pinto, also 24, from Calgary, she had intervened after a scuffle broke out in a bar involving an Israeli tourist and a former Thai boyfriend called 'Nui'.

"The Israeli guy hit my Thai boyfriend and I tried to break it up but I couldn't. Then the police came and took them outside and they circled around Nui and were pushing him, so I got involved.

"I went in there and hit one of the cops. I was very drunk that night. The cops took us both to the police station and made us give urine samples. The test came out clear and they let us both go."

On another occasion she said she was involved in a fight at a regular party at a nearby arts market called Pittalew with her current boyfriend Rattaporn Varawadee nicknamed Fuen.

"We had our first fight. We were sitting on the bench together, and then I started crying and walked off. I was walking around crying but neither of us touched anyone else."

Ms Reisig adamantly stuck to her claim that Police Sergeant Major Uthai Dechawiwat was the one who struck the first blow early last Sunday morning as she was walking from the Be-Bop bar in Pai to the Bamboo Bar.

"Things are a bit foggy. I can't quite remember what happened before the incident, But I can remember everything very clearly from the time that man hit me in the face.

"Leo and I were always messing around and play fighting noisily. We might have even been yelling at each other, play-fighting - but not in anger, it was just our way of kidding around, having fun. We never fought in anger. But even if we were fighting, we weren't hurting anybody else. It didn't give anyone the right to shoot us.

"I don't feel at all responsible for the shooting. The guy who did this was crazy."

Last night as the sunset on Pai, a former by-water which has been taken over in the last 3 years by a massive backpacker invasion, two Thai witnesses said they insisted it was Carly not the policeman who started the fight.

Kanasphuchit Sankam, the owner of a karaoke bar who was eating at the noodles at the time said: "I watched the couple come up, punching each other and yelling.

"It didn't look like they were pretending, it looked like a real fight, they were shouting loudly and punching each other, but I don't know what the fight was about.

"They even knocked over one of the motorbikes that was parked on the bridge. I watched Uthai go over to try and stop the fight.

He said 'Stop, I am police' and held out his hand in front of him, with his other hand ready to draw his gun. They pushed him over and he got his gun out.

"The girl started crying loudly and he told her to calm down and go and sit down. The policeman then started walking away from the scene, but the girl got up and hit him.

"Leo then joined her in hitting him and they all fell onto the ground. I couldn't see them anymore because of the parked cars, but I then heard three shots go off. If the girl had not provoked him, nothing would have happened."

A similar story in almost identical words was told by Saijai Gawin the owner of the noodle shop.

The Thai police investigator Lt-Colonel Sombat Panya has already given a reason for the couple fighting. He said Leo Del Pinto, who recently arrived in Thailand, found out that Reisig had become pregnant with a Thai man known as Fuen.

Associated Press has quoted Sombat Panya as saying that the foetus 'was unharmed' - although Ms Reisig denies being pregnant.

As in the case of British backpackers Vanessa Arscott,23, and Adam Lloyd who were gunned down by a Thai policeman in Kanchanaburi by the River Kwai in Thailand in 2004 it seems unlikely that Ms Reisig will be able to produce any witnesses in Thailand to prove her side of the story.

Her current Thai boyfriend, while claiming the shootings had no justification, is reluctant to say any more. Ms Reisig's willingness to go out with local Thai men will not have helped her image in a society which regards western women as 'easy'.

Four years ago in Kanchanaburi, western Thailand, Briton Adam Lloyd was gunned down by Police Sergeant Somchai Wisetsingh and then got into his Volvo car and ran down Vanessa dragging her body under the car along the riverside road.

He then got out and as she clung to an electric pylon shot her in the head, neck and chest.

In the ensuing furor stories were put out that Vanessa had slept with Wisetsingh and had returned to the town to see him again.

There were several witnesses to the shooting. They would not go to court but were able to tell the victim's parents exactly what happened. Each one said they were scared to give evidence against the local police.

In the case of the death of John Leo del Pinto it seems the only reliable evidence may be forensic, and hope of a satisfactory conclusion for the young man's family may be down to close monitoring of the case by the media, Canadian government and lawyers.

The grouping of the shots is vital. But there already appears to be an answer as to why the gun fired. "Police told me that their guns do not have safety catches," a local reporter said last night.

- By Owen Williams, Jan 09 2008 © Copyright 2008

I know nobody cares about my opinion, but apart from what I stated before here my final opinion and it IS final.

1. There is no reason to kill somebody in such a way.

2. Ms. Reisig is very very stupid and her behaivour is totally unplaced here in Thailand.

I give here the fault that it came to this.

The action on the policemans account. But the trigger has been surely Ms. Reisig - for me she shares a big part of responsibility for her death boyfriend - and that after staying here a year.

I might say until you haven't stayed here longer that 3 years you know nothing and should behave careful and always friendly. But even then some do need longer to learn.

maxi

Yes guvnor, she was asking for it like!

[Arkady]

Apologies this is off thread but gives a flavor of how the police might consider bail requests from cop killers. From The Nation blog.

"First the background story:

There's this guy, named 'Bank'... 22 years of age...

Kills 3 cops and goes on the run.

The police are hot on his trail.

'Bank' jumps from motel to motel, and when the police scent the smell and get there, 'Bank' is gone...

'Bank' calls his friends and they go underground together. 3 of them.

Now, in today's newspaper 'Thai Rath', it reports,

There had been a report that 'Bank' and 2 other suspects had been arrested by the police at a restaurant in Petchaboon. The people at the restaurant gave accounts of the police coming in to arrest 3 men having breakfast in the restaurant.

When the media asked the police about the whereabouts of these three men, the police denies they were ever arrested. The police involved in the raid denies that the suspects have been apprehended, and stops talking to the press. They stop answering the phone all together.

This morning, 'Bank's' mother goes on TV show and tells her story.

She seemed to be a very lousy speaker. She couldn't tell anything clearly... the phone line was bad, but even when the connection had been better, she couldn't explain clearly what she was trying to say.

After some conversation, the host of the TV show (Sorayut) summarized the whole thing:

- Bank's mother and Bank's wife talked to Bank on the phone, and Bank wanted to surrender. So the mother and wife talked to the police about it, and they agreed on a place where Bank would give himself up.

- The police and mother had been talking to Bank all the time, up until the moment when Bank went to the restaurant where he was last seen.

- Bank, mother, wife, and the police had designed the surrender to be like this:

1. Bank would wait for the police and his mother and wife at a specific restaurant,

2. The police will wait outside, and mother and the wife will go in the restaurant.

3. Bank will come out with his hands up, with his mother and wife by his side.

However, once the police found out about the place and the time, the police changed their plan, and charged in the restaurant by themselves.

Bank's mother and wife never got to see Bank.

Bank's mother suspects her son is dead. She's pretty sure her son is dead. She says if someone wants to surrender, then he should be allowed to surrender, even if that person is a cop killer. She won't file any charges, and she won't even try to seek justice. All she wants to do, is tell her people what really happened..."

[Tony Clifton]

Bank is dead.

How can anyone trust these guys?

See what happened here...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1751929

[Prakanong]

Bank is dead.

How can anyone trust these guys?

See what happened here...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1751929

The only way Bank would have survived to get to court after a holiday was if his Daddy's name was "Chalerm"

[DamianMavis]

Bank is dead.

How can anyone trust these guys?

See what happened here...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1751929

NOBODY does trust these guys, except maybe a few naive falangs that don't have a clue what is really going on here. Sorry for the insult to the naive falangs but it's the truth.

Damian

[chanman]

Bank is dead.

How can anyone trust these guys?

See what happened here...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1751929

NOBODY does trust these guys, except maybe a few naive falangs that don't have a clue what is really going on here. Sorry for the insult to the naive falangs but it's the truth.

Damian

Your replies are very naive and simplistic, there are good and bad people in every society, good police and bad police the world over.

Your few bad experiences do not make all Thai Police bad eggs, in the same manner my good experiences do not make them all angels.

Comments such as the one above only dilute your argument, when you probably have something constructive to say.

[JimsKnight]

Damien's a charging crusader Chanman and making reference to semi-corrupt nature endemic to thai cops in LOS. He just needs to see the real deal and (try to) look at things impartially.

[DamianMavis]

Guys come on seriously, it is Thai culture, it's just the way it is here, the police make their real money through corruption. Is it that you dont know this and dont want to believe it or did you think I was really saying something off the wall and outlandish? Im sure there are some good cops.

Damian

[sabaijai]

So the moral of this story is then.....

'If you see a Policeman in Thailand.....and he is carrying a weapon, ........get it off him, so he can't decide to shoot you with it'

Better safe than sorry.

Hmmm or perhaps the moral is don't assault a police officer or his colleagues. No one's trying to absolve the policeman of guilt here. There are remote causes, and there are proximate causes. Selecting only one cause and ignoring the rest, one learns little from the tragedy.

[chanman]

Guys come on seriously, it is Thai culture, it's just the way it is here, the police make their real money through corruption. Is it that you dont know this and dont want to believe it or did you think I was really saying something off the wall and outlandish? Im sure there are some good cops.

Damian

Or is it that you have limited contact with all aspects of Thai Culture? maybe it is time to change who you associate with.

[Gary A]

Thailand must be an absolutely HORRIBLE place to live. If I believed just ten percent of what the anti Thai crusaders said in just this thread, I'd pack my bags and go home for sure. These people make it VERY easy to fall in the "If you don't like it, GO HOME" camp.

I have been here for many years and part of my living in Thailand rules is to keep a low profile. You're not in Kansas Toto. In all the years I have been here, the only problems I have had were with drunk farangs. Rude, arrogant, drunk, big mouthed farangs.

[tijnebijn]

Guys come on seriously, it is Thai culture, it's just the way it is here, the police make their real money through corruption. Is it that you dont know this and dont want to believe it or did you think I was really saying something off the wall and outlandish? Im sure there are some good cops.

Damian

Thai culture ?

Sorry Damian , although it is widely known their is much corruption at

every level and every sector or institution .

Doesn't make sense how you describe it as culture , it is a practise not culture .

Anyway as you seem to know it so well how things work , have you lived

in a moo ban or ampuh for more then several years ?

And by that know how the locals handle things apart from your knowledge of

outside information ?

If you do maybe you will understand more why and how

things work here differently . Its a long process to understand it , and I will tell you

that in my experience things turn to be much different than you might think or

better said the impression you might have , which not have to be untrue per se ,

its just common you know what I mean right ?

Anyway the best way is to avoid any police affairs from the beginning .

[DamianMavis]

Youre right in a sense, I dont go hooker shopping, I dont have a thai teerac half my age, I dont live in a 3000 baht a month room and live like a backpacker amongst the poorer thais and eat off the street so ya in a way I dont have the same kind of contact as alot of falangs in Thailand. I associate with more educated people and discuss these matters with them though.

I actually only have ONE bad experience with Thai police which I talked about earleir in this thread. BUT I have probably FORGOTTEN more horrible police stories in Thailand than you have ever learned. And I dont mean horrible like this one in this thread. Just tons of examples such as the falang that had his brains spilled out in front of the Landmark Hotel a few New Years ago and died (over a bill argument - they were being told to pay for drinks that other people had ordered that were not associated with them), the alcohol street stall staff that did it were never punished and the whole episode was quickly swept under the rug, why? Because the street stall owner was a cop, he didnt do anything, except not allow justice to be done and that to me is as bad as being the actual perpetrator. I only know of this because my friend was right there when it happened.

Damian

[BigSnake]

What a shame, but things happen. I wonder if the cop tried to ID himself?? so sad.

[DamianMavis]

Thailand must be an absolutely HORRIBLE place to live. If I believed just ten percent of what the anti Thai crusaders said in just this thread, I'd pack my bags and go home for sure. These people make it VERY easy to fall in the "If you don't like it, GO HOME" camp.

I have been here for many years and part of my living in Thailand rules is to keep a low profile. You're not in Kansas Toto. In all the years I have been here, the only problems I have had were with drunk farangs. Rude, arrogant, drunk, big mouthed farangs.

I said it before and I'll say it again, I love Thailand and Thai people but am horrified at the situation with the police and the general lack of safety especially towards women. There are so many wonderful things here though and no I dont mean the women although that is a major wonderful part for most of the falang men here. I have a career here that I am unwilling to give up, same with my Japanese girlfriend, that is why we stay even though she has had several horrible experiences (none with police). I also fully agree with you and I keep an extremely low profile and always smile and act polite. I have swallowed my pride so many times I have lost count, I have been in many dangerous situations and always managed to talk my way out of it even if all it entailed was never stop smiling. But I have never had a drink in my life and of course drugs are nonexistent for me too so that probably helps keep me safer than the next falang.

Guys come on seriously, it is Thai culture, it's just the way it is here, the police make their real money through corruption. Is it that you dont know this and dont want to believe it or did you think I was really saying something off the wall and outlandish? Im sure there are some good cops.

Damian

Thai culture ?

Sorry Damian , although it is widely known their is much corruption at

every level and every sector or institution .

Doesn't make sense how you describe it as culture , it is a practise not culture .

Anyway as you seem to know it so well how things work , have you lived

in a moo ban or ampuh for more then several years ?

And by that know how the locals handle things apart from your knowledge of

outside information ?

If you do maybe you will understand more why and how

things work here differently . Its a long process to understand it , and I will tell you

that in my experience things turn to be much different than you might think or

better said the impression you might have , which not have to be untrue per se ,

its just common you know what I mean right ?

Anyway the best way is to avoid any police affairs from the beginning .

Maybe culture was the wrong word to use. I dont know lots of things about Thailand, I unfortunately do hear about every negative story and victimisation due to my wide range of friends (falang, Japanese, Thai) so whatever circle it happens in, I hear about it. I also read alot.

Damian

Edited January 10, 2008 by DamianMavis

[chanman]

Youre right in a sense, I dont go hooker shopping, I dont have a thai teerac half my age, I dont live in a 3000 baht a month room and live like a backpacker amongst the poorer thais and eat off the street so ya in a way I dont have the same kind of contact as alot of falangs in Thailand. I associate with more educated people and discuss these matters with them though.

I actually only have ONE bad experience with Thai police which I talked about earleir in this thread. BUT I have probably FORGOTTEN more horrible police stories in Thailand than you have ever learned. And I dont mean horrible like this one in this thread. Just tons of examples such as the falang that had his brains spilled out in front of the Landmark Hotel a few New Years ago and died (over a bill argument - they were being told to pay for drinks that other people had ordered that were not associated with them), the alcohol street stall staff that did it were never punished and the whole episode was quickly swept under the rug, why? Because the street stall owner was a cop, he didnt do anything, except not allow justice to be done and that to me is as bad as being the actual perpetrator. I only know of this because my friend was right there when it happened.

Damian

You assume a lot about other posters, I am sure there are as many good stories as there are bad but good stories are not news hence you do not hear of them.

As one poster said earlier, your comments will fall on deaf ears as long as you see things in such a black and white way, (and immature) life here and in most places is much more a shade of grey.

I understand these are your fellow country people but things are not panning out well for them it seems they, or she at least was not squeaky clean.

This does not mean I condone the shootings, I for one believe we will never know the truth, from what I can see neither party are people any respectable person would associate with based on the information we have read so far, and that is undoubtedly all we will have to go on.

[Gravelrash]

Youre right in a sense, I dont go hooker shopping, I dont have a thai teerac half my age, I dont live in a 3000 baht a month room and live like a backpacker amongst the poorer thais and eat off the street so ya in a way I dont have the same kind of contact as alot of falangs in Thailand. I associate with more educated people and discuss these matters with them though.

Damian

I quite liked your posts untill you decided to wheel out the "I'm better than you" drivel. That says more about you than any well reasoned opinion.

[DamianMavis]

Youre right in a sense, I dont go hooker shopping, I dont have a thai teerac half my age, I dont live in a 3000 baht a month room and live like a backpacker amongst the poorer thais and eat off the street so ya in a way I dont have the same kind of contact as alot of falangs in Thailand. I associate with more educated people and discuss these matters with them though.

Damian

I quite liked your posts untill you decided to wheel out the "I'm better than you" drivel. That says more about you than any well reasoned opinion.

I didnt mean it as such and apologise if you took offence, Chanman was suggesting that I associate with bad people and that I am a bad person so I wanted to clear that up completely. Not drinking and even doing drugs isnt something I do to be good, it has simply been a life choice kind of like being a vegetarian (which Im not).

Damian

Edited January 10, 2008 by DamianMavis