Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[BarryMan]

^ Wasn't the sentence of Katherine Horton's murderers commuted? Reports suggested so.

If they (poor Isaan fishermen) can beat the needle, so can anyone with a shred of influence.

It was commuted.

This is a pretty irresponsible claim if you don't have any proof to back it up. To the best of my knowledge, the sentence was not commuted and he is currently serving the sentence right now. If you have proof to the contrary, then by all means come forward with it, but if not, you shouldn't make claims like that.

This is the kind of rumor that seems to get started and perpetuated by farang who isolate themselves with other farang, don't speak a bit of Thai, but still feel themselves qualified to "tell it like it is" as insiders somehow. Barstool expat rumor-mongering is what it reads like to me.

As for the Del Pinto shooting, I think sadly that this was just a senseless waste of a life. From the reports I've read, I'm guessing that the following happened: Del Pinto and Reisig were drunk and arguing, the cop intervened, Reisig attacked him, Del Pinto got into it, the cop shot the pair of them. The cop's credibility on the "accidental" firing claim was pretty well damaged by a report I read (haven't seen it on here, will look for the link) that says he was indeed drunk, on the word of an eyewitness (one of those locals in Pai who Drummond, in an early bit of sensationalism, said would never say anything against a local cop).

Reisig has been proven to be making false claims too, changing her story often and she has an established reputation as a violent drunk, which tellingly includes an altercation with a cop. Another telling point in this regard has been the silence of her boyfriend, who, after initially backing up Reisig's version of events (which she now says she's forgotten somehow) now just says that regardless of what happened, they didn't deserve to get shot. That's true, but it makes me think that he is getting tired of trying to keep up with Reisig's lies.

Her selfishness in this case is incredible. By telling a false version of what happened, no doubt in the interest of taking the spotlight off of her probably having sparked the incident that led to Del Pinto's death, she has seriously harmed the investigation and not to mention given the family of the deceased an inaccurate picture of what took place. That they are seeking consular assistance on her behalf is just plain sad. Nice people, but they really need to get a better grounding in the kind of character they are dealing with here, which has been made clear in reports.

Her fears of retribution made me howl out loud. Something for all of you conspiracy theorists out there and so-called experts about the evils of Thai policing (a group with serious faults, but perspective please) should consider is, in a town where tourism is everything, what benefit would be had of rubbing out an eyewitness in such a high profile case? Why not just fill in the road to Pai with dirt and forget that there ever was such a thing as tourism, because that is what the effect would be. Would it be worth the damage to Pai's reputation and tourist industry - which the cops no doubt benefit from as a cash cow - just to save one drunken sergeant with an itchy trigger finger?

My guess is this dramatic plea for assistance, has more to do with her bank account having no money in it and her hope that the Canadian Embassy will pick up the tab when she checks out of the hospital than it has to do with any genuine fear. I bet she was telling the truth about one thing though: that she was asked not to return to Pai. Why would that town want a drunken violent troublemaker back? Would you roll out the red carpet for a character like that in your own hometown?

My sympathies go out to the Del Pinto family. It sounds like he was in the wrong company that night, and that on his own he would never have been in that situation. As for what happens to the cop, I think since there are no reliable eyewitnesses to the shooting itself, that forensics will have to provide the answers. I just hope another round of the "conspiracy" chorus isn't sounded at that point if the results contradict Reisig, which they no doubt will somehow.

[sabaijai]

I think she will stall for a bit trying to get the Canadian Embassy to let her take Fuen back with her. Fuen will not qualify for political asylum and is not even on Canadian soil which is a normal prerequisite. Canada would have to pay for his ticket and be prepared to provide unlimited welfare to Fuen as he does not have money and will find it hard to support himself in Canada as an artist. He would probably not qualify for a tourist visa, if he applied out of the blue. Anyway a move from Canada to issue a visa to Fuen on the apparent grounds that he is likely to be murdered by the Thai authorities, is an absolute diplomatic non non. The best they could manage might be to issue a short term visa on compassionate grounds for him to take care of Carly's psychological trauma.

As I said earlier, even in straightforward political asylum cases involving declared persons of concern and political refugees, not even the UNHCR can resettle refugees to third countries out of Thailand if the Thai Government decides to deny permission for them to leave. I've seen the RTG do this when they want to deport Burmese political prisoners back to the Burmese Junta. Fuen is a Thai citizen, in a criminal case against a cop - it is a non-stater. The police have already set up the scenario, by incriminating and charging both Carly and the Thai boyfriend, with one effect for Carly, and another for the Fuen, which is exactly what the government intended.

And lest we forget, Feun had already been arrested and convicted of drug use and possession in Pai a few months ago, and is well known to the police.

[LoveDaBlues]

This is the whole problem that we have been trying to get through to the more "resistant" of posters. There is NOTHING that can be done to get any other result other than what the police want, they can block all attempts at every turn. AND THIS IS THE WHOLE REASON WE COMPLAIN! There isnt even a chance that the victims (whether guilty or not of instigation themselves) can get a fair chance. The only way to get anything done with the police is to pressure them from above, if someone with power or sway over them says "do this" they will do it, otherwise they protect themselves by any means necessary.

The major issue is that if YOU or ME was put in a similar situation (and dont say it would never happen to you because YOU KNOW how to behave in Thailand, random acts and unlucky things DO happen to good people!) we would be portrayed as bad people no matter what our personalities and they would find a way to pressure the situation so you could do nothing to protect yourself or seek justice. Look at me as an example, I have never had a drink or drugs in my life, but GARUANTEED the initial police statement would be that I was drunk and ornery and causing trouble. There would be other made up stories to cloud the situation (like I wasnt nice or I was rude or I was "fighting" with my non existent Thai girlfriend etc...) and it would look a little like somehow the end result was not actually the fault of the perpetrator but of myself and that is just plain wrong.

Alot of people posting here so desperately want to believe the victims are at fault for DEATH because it makes you feel a little safer and secure thinking that as long as you always act accordingly nothing bad will happen to you. I've avoided at least 20 bad situations here because I WAS SOBER, I'll fully admit that, but there have been a few situations I couldnt avoid no matter what I did or said. If a bad situation arises with someone that is "Connected" it wont matter how polite Ive always been or how sober, I will be the bad guy no matter what and that sucks.

Damian

Where are you hanging out, and what are you into that brings about that many 'bad situations'? Maybe your own attitude is creating these 'bad situations'? In 2.5 years here full-time I've encountered no such 'bad situations'.

edit - am I misreading your post? Had you been drinking the situation would have been bad? puzzling post.

Edited January 12, 2008 by LoveDaBlues

[jumnien]

10 years full time in Thailand here; no bad situations.

[Journalist]

This is the whole problem that we have been trying to get through to the more "resistant" of posters. There is NOTHING that can be done to get any other result other than what the police want, they can block all attempts at every turn. AND THIS IS THE WHOLE REASON WE COMPLAIN! There isnt even a chance that the victims (whether guilty or not of instigation themselves) can get a fair chance. The only way to get anything done with the police is to pressure them from above, if someone with power or sway over them says "do this" they will do it, otherwise they protect themselves by any means necessary

Damian

There is a constituency of posters here who seem fed up -are not prepared to take it anymore- and have found their common voice.

So band together and be the seeds of a lobby group.....'Thaivisa campaign for Justice'

Its like this how popular movements get started, whether suffragetes, Matin Luther King.

All forces for change start with a small step - and those pressure groups come together from those below, not those in the elites.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Journalist

[Claymore]

^ Wasn't the sentence of Katherine Horton's murderers commuted? Reports suggested so.

If they (poor Isaan fishermen) can beat the needle, so can anyone with a shred of influence.

It was commuted.

This is a pretty irresponsible claim if you don't have any proof to back it up. To the best of my knowledge, the sentence was not commuted and he is currently serving the sentence right now. If you have proof to the contrary, then by all means come forward with it, but if not, you shouldn't make claims like that.

This is the kind of rumor that seems to get started and perpetuated by farang who isolate themselves with other farang, don't speak a bit of Thai, but still feel themselves qualified to "tell it like it is" as insiders somehow. Barstool expat rumor-mongering is what it reads like to me.

As for the Del Pinto shooting, I think sadly that this was just a senseless waste of a life. From the reports I've read, I'm guessing that the following happened: Del Pinto and Reisig were drunk and arguing, the cop intervened, Reisig attacked him, Del Pinto got into it, the cop shot the pair of them. The cop's credibility on the "accidental" firing claim was pretty well damaged by a report I read (haven't seen it on here, will look for the link) that says he was indeed drunk, on the word of an eyewitness (one of those locals in Pai who Drummond, in an early bit of sensationalism, said would never say anything against a local cop).

Reisig has been proven to be making false claims too, changing her story often and she has an established reputation as a violent drunk, which tellingly includes an altercation with a cop. Another telling point in this regard has been the silence of her boyfriend, who, after initially backing up Reisig's version of events (which she now says she's forgotten somehow) now just says that regardless of what happened, they didn't deserve to get shot. That's true, but it makes me think that he is getting tired of trying to keep up with Reisig's lies.

Her selfishness in this case is incredible. By telling a false version of what happened, no doubt in the interest of taking the spotlight off of her probably having sparked the incident that led to Del Pinto's death, she has seriously harmed the investigation and not to mention given the family of the deceased an inaccurate picture of what took place. That they are seeking consular assistance on her behalf is just plain sad. Nice people, but they really need to get a better grounding in the kind of character they are dealing with here, which has been made clear in reports.

Her fears of retribution made me howl out loud. Something for all of you conspiracy theorists out there and so-called experts about the evils of Thai policing (a group with serious faults, but perspective please) should consider is, in a town where tourism is everything, what benefit would be had of rubbing out an eyewitness in such a high profile case? Why not just fill in the road to Pai with dirt and forget that there ever was such a thing as tourism, because that is what the effect would be. Would it be worth the damage to Pai's reputation and tourist industry - which the cops no doubt benefit from as a cash cow - just to save one drunken sergeant with an itchy trigger finger?

My guess is this dramatic plea for assistance, has more to do with her bank account having no money in it and her hope that the Canadian Embassy will pick up the tab when she checks out of the hospital than it has to do with any genuine fear. I bet she was telling the truth about one thing though: that she was asked not to return to Pai. Why would that town want a drunken violent troublemaker back? Would you roll out the red carpet for a character like that in your own hometown?

My sympathies go out to the Del Pinto family. It sounds like he was in the wrong company that night, and that on his own he would never have been in that situation. As for what happens to the cop, I think since there are no reliable eyewitnesses to the shooting itself, that forensics will have to provide the answers. I just hope another round of the "conspiracy" chorus isn't sounded at that point if the results contradict Reisig, which they no doubt will somehow.

Wow with such character assassination and false claims that the girl was changed her story I'm sort of glad a newspaper is not giving you space. Pot, kettle,black.

Pray tell me what investigation has this girl harmed.

[BarryMan]

This is the whole problem that we have been trying to get through to the more "resistant" of posters. There is NOTHING that can be done to get any other result other than what the police want, they can block all attempts at every turn. AND THIS IS THE WHOLE REASON WE COMPLAIN! There isnt even a chance that the victims (whether guilty or not of instigation themselves) can get a fair chance. The only way to get anything done with the police is to pressure them from above, if someone with power or sway over them says "do this" they will do it, otherwise they protect themselves by any means necessary

Damian

There is a constituency of posters here who seem fed up -are not prepared to take it anymore- and have found their common voice.

So band together and be the seeds of a lobby group.....'Thaivisa campaign for Justice'

Its like this how popular movements get started, whether suffragetes, Matin Luther King.

All forces for change start with a small step.

Sarcastic? I hope so. It gave me a good laugh.

Perhaps this movement could start off ala Rosa Parkes with a protest on the practice of Thai bus companies forcing you to sit in the seat indicated on your ticket.

I can just picture a big swaying group of beer-guzzling expats linking arms on Walking Street in Pattaya and singing "We Shall Overcome" in unison.

[Journalist]

^ No, not facetious.

Damien is voicing the same complaint again and again, saying that someone at the top needs to do something. Thats not the solution.

An agent for change comes from the underclasses, the ignored. So be that agent for change. There's no more ideal constituency than this one to initiate it.

Get a sub-forum where it can be discussed. There's plenty of reporters here who would give you quotes and publicity.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Journalist

[sbk]

er, pai isn't exactly rural thai culture. it has long been inundated by the edgier farangs.

And from my understanding from a friend who has lived in Pai for a few years now, most of the Thai people in Pai aren't actually from Pai. They are from Bangkok, Samui, Chiang Mai etc.

[DamianMavis]

^ No, not facetious.

Damien is voicing the same complaint again and again, saying that someone at the top needs to do something. Thats not the solution.

An agent for change comes from the underclasses, the ignored. So be that agent for change. There's no more ideal constituency than this one to initiate it.

Get a sub-forum where it can be discussed. There's plenty of reporters here who would give you quotes and publicity.

BARRYMAN, you made your whole post up! No where do all the FACTS you listed actually exist! It is JUST YOUR OPINION.

Journalist I never said someone in power needs to change everything, I truly dont believe anything can be changed. And CERTAINLY nothing is going to be changed by any group of foreigners.... this isnt the civil rights movement in the United States by American citizens you mentioned, this is non citizens with no power or voice at all.... unless there is international pressure for monetary or political reasons. But even then... when the police killed all those people during the drug killings (over 2000?) and the military killed those muslims stacking them in the back of a truck like fire wood ALIVE and they made Thailand look VERY bad did anything get done or change? I dont know.

Lovedablues, I am out and about alot more than you perhaps? I'm younger than your average poster so am hanging out in different crowds? I am always sober and calm and smile even when (especially when) I feel like trouble is starting. If I was drunk I doubt I'd react in the best way to diffuse a situation.... why do you think so many violent crimes here almost always involve alcohol?

Damian

Edited January 12, 2008 by DamianMavis

[jumnien]

Well, Damian, nothing has changed. Thailand is still the relatively peaceful country it always has been and many farang have found a way being kind neighbors. There is a way to live peacefully, deferentially, and happily here and there is a way to attract violence here if that is what people choose. We just want to make sure they are making an informed choice. Many travellers feel that Thailand is a place where they can mouth off to Thais and be disrespectful with impunity - decidedly not so! They may get away with it for a while, but it will ultimately catch up to them. Karma's a b*tch! Walk slowly and drink lots of water and smile. Rise with the sun and tuck in early. Most of all, enjoy each day!

[Journalist]

Journalist I never said someone in power needs to change everything, I truly dont believe anything can be changed. And CERTAINLY nothing is going to be changed by any group of foreigners.... this isnt the civil rights movement in the United States by American citizens you mentioned, this is non citizens with no power or voice at all.... unless there is international pressure for monetary or political reasons.

Damian

I agree to a large extent, and fatalism sometimes seems like the only answer. Foreigners can change things though (and people who gainsay that might as well go and retire to the cemetry right now!) and you do form a natural bloc. And you do have rights. Amnesty International had to start somewhere.

But in your last four words - therein is the solution. How does it pan out?

Brainstorming...

-write letters to key national newspapers aborad

-distribute leaflets at the airport

-Be the spokesmen who journalists look to speak to when killings like this happen.

Make a noise.

But i'm under no illusions. Nobody will do this.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Journalist

[DamianMavis]

Well, Damian, nothing has changed. Thailand is still the relatively peaceful country it always has been and many farang have found a way being kind neighbors. There is a way to live peacefully, deferentially, and happily here and there is a way to attract violence here if that is what people choose. We just want to make sure they are making an informed choice. Many travellers feel that Thailand is a place where they can mouth off to Thais and be disrespectful with impunity - decidedly not so! They may get away with it for a while, but it will ultimately catch up to them. Karma's a b*tch! Walk slowly and drink lots of water and smile. Rise with the sun and tuck in early. Most of all, enjoy each day!

Yes something has definately changed oh my god! Thailand 10 years ago is not like Thailand today. It is definately more dangerous for foreigners. Im not saying its not the foreigners fault, perhaps when too many tourists start coming to a place it goes downhill, perhaps western influence too fast is a bad thing, I dont know, but this place has changed ALOT. I do agree with you about how to behave, when I see a farang arguing loudly or being rude to a Thai I wonder if that farang has a death wish or is really that stupid..... but really... should we have to worry about our mortal safety over an argument? No. It is sad that we do.

Journalist I never said someone in power needs to change everything, I truly dont believe anything can be changed. And CERTAINLY nothing is going to be changed by any group of foreigners.... this isnt the civil rights movement in the United States by American citizens you mentioned, this is non citizens with no power or voice at all.... unless there is international pressure for monetary or political reasons.

Damian

I agree to a large extent, and fatalism sometimes seems like the only answer. Foreigners can change things though (and people who gainsay that might as well go and retire to the cemetry right now!) and you do form a natural bloc. And you do have rights. Amnesty International had to start somewhere.

But in your last four words - therein is the solution. How does it pan out?

Brainstorming...

-write letters to key national newspapers aborad

-distribute leaflets at the airport

-Be the spokesmen who journalists look to speak to when killings like this happen.

Make a noise.

You really believe this? Well it is an interesting thought. I personally would think anyone doing this would be deported at the least never to return.

Damian

[Maxi101]

...The only way to get anything done with the police is to pressure them from above, if someone with power or sway over them says "do this" they will do it, otherwise they protect themselves by any means necessary....

What powers from above you are talking about ?!?!? The army !!!

Edited January 12, 2008 by Maestro
Reduced quoted text. No need to quote the entire, lengthy post - Maestro

[Maxi101]

And lest we forget, Feun had already been arrested and convicted of drug use and possession in Pai a few months ago, and is well known to the police.

.. which means if this is true, he is as good as death --- or at least worthless in every process.

[Journalist]

If participants were worried about deportation (fair enough)

We have the power of the internet today. Set up an Amnesty International style website chronicling these crimes against foreigners.

Readers understand why the founders would need to stay anonymous.

Leaflets distributed in 'guerilla' methods. eg throwing them off the top of the Baiyoke Tower.

Honestly, the possiblities for creative pampleteering (in the classic 18th century activist way) and their distribution are endless!

Edited January 12, 2008 by Journalist

[Maxi101]

...Nobody will do this.

Even if anybody of us will do this, nothing gonna change.

The only one who can change this country is he Thai people, and I don't hear them bickering around right now.

Get real.... NO farrang as smart they might be will every be able to change something here.

Do your demos where you ve got the power and change things at home.

Some really have trouble to realize that.

I am speaking about R E A L I T Y in Thailand and not about right and wrong which can differ a lot from person to person

Edited January 12, 2008 by Maestro
Reduced quoted text. No need to quote the entire, lengthy post with multiple nested quotes - Maestro

[Journalist]

^If we sat down with a stack of history books, we could find thousands of examples where change was forced by the little man, the alienated underdog.

Yeah, you're foreigners, but you have clout with the $. Thats a big potential catalyst. Bigger than one might think.

A campaign could make enough of a dent in Thailand's external public relations to make them more mindful about how they deal with crimes against foreigners. And if you shake your head at that observation, you really don't know the power of the media.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Journalist

[Maxi101]

...A campaign could make enough of a dent in Thailand's external public relations to make them more mindful about how they deal with crimes against foreigners. And if you shake your head at that observation, you really don't know the power of the media.

I might learn something, please one example of a foreigner (with no citizenship of the guestcoutry) for changing that country to the better

[grantbkk]

The only way foreigners can rise up and beat "The Man" is with their feet. I do not recommend handing out fliers at the airport. The taxi touts will be there the next day and you will not. A grassroots effort by expats and backpackers in a foreign country will only make it worse for all of us here. Us against them is the perfect receipt for disaster for well intentioned people. Perhaps this thread has been here too long as the tenor has moved from outrage to a call for action. Someday there will be an incident that will cause changes in the way the police do things here but this will not be the one. Unfortunately, these are the wrong victims to stoke the fire of resistance. Too many questions regarding the actions and character of the victims with no independent witnesses willing to put there lives on the line for the tourist backpackers and local expats.

[Journalist]

^^I myself got one of Asia's biggest listed corporations to help out a charity to the tune of about THB 4 million - by discovering the former behaving in a callous uncharitable way, and telling their CEO that if they didn't rectify it, i'd publicly expose them.

They blinked.

This was just 4 weeks ago. Yeah, I was pleased with that, that was a good result.

Just a small thing comparatively speaking, but it was me on my own.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Journalist

[michael233]

Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

LAst night there was an incident in Pai. Not sure if this is being 'allowed' to the mainstream press or not but I will tell you the FACTS and the RUMORS

FACTS:

Last night Janurary 5th a little after Midnight a forgien tourist was shot through the mouth and died instanly by a Thai man with whoum he was earlier arguing. Witnesses earlier saw the Thai man and the Tourist arguring on the street and the Thai man drove off shouting in english 'I'LL KILL YOU'

shortly after the Tourist was eating at a resuturant and the Thai man came in and stuck a gun down the forgienners throat and shot him dead. It is also thought the forgineers girlfriend and possibly another was injured.

As for RUMORS there are two corrurent rurmors circulating:

THE OFFICAL REPORT:

There were two falang fighting and the police came to break up the fight and the falang attacked the police and the police had to shoot them in self defence.

THE STREET REPORT (From the Local Thais)

The man who shot the tourist was an Off Duty Pai Police officer who was drinking.

Both seem to concur that a Police officer shot a forgineer so we will go with that.

Also the local Thais are saying that the Police Force arrested the officer as well - but that is still in Rumor phase.

RIP to another victim of useless violence .

I wonder if we will see something on the news ,

it should be . If not perhaps the police over there

wants to cover something and it will be difficult for the family

of the foreigner to bring the guilty to justice .

The embassy of the foreigner should be informed rapidly ,

and for his family to pressure the police , so there will be justice .

Anyway my thoughts go to the family of the victim and also the people

who have witnessed this awful event . RIP .

LAst night there was an incident in Pai. Not sure if this is being 'allowed' to the mainstream press or not but I will tell you the FACTS and the RUMORS

FACTS:

Last night Janurary 5th a little after Midnight a forgien tourist was shot through the mouth and died instanly by a Thai man with whoum he was earlier arguing. Witnesses earlier saw the Thai man and the Tourist arguring on the street and the Thai man drove off shouting in english 'I'LL KILL YOU'

shortly after the Tourist was eating at a resuturant and the Thai man came in and stuck a gun down the forgienners throat and shot him dead. It is also thought the forgineers girlfriend and possibly another was injured.

As for RUMORS there are two corrurent rurmors circulating:

THE OFFICAL REPORT:

There were two falang fighting and the police came to break up the fight and the falang attacked the police and the police had to shoot them in self defence.

THE STREET REPORT (From the Local Thais)

The man who shot the tourist was an Off Duty Pai Police officer who was drinking.

Both seem to concur that a Police officer shot a forgineer so we will go with that.

Also the local Thais are saying that the Police Force arrested the officer as well - but that is still in Rumor phase.

Another Somchai Wisetsingh type murder. Expect the perpetrator to have been smuggled to safety across the Burmese border by now while a deal is worked out. e.g. leave the police force, spend 6 months on remand, then get an unofficial pension.

RIP to the victim. No justice to be expected here if the killer is indeed a policeman.

Edited January 12, 2008 by michael233

[Foggy Bottom]

If participants were worried about deportation (fair enough)

We have the power of the internet today. Set up an Amnesty International style website chronicling these crimes against foreigners.

Readers understand why the founders would need to stay anonymous.

Tell that to Matthew McDaniel and Akha.org

Leaflets distributed in 'guerilla' methods. eg throwing them off the top of the Baiyoke Tower.

Honestly, the possiblities for creative pampleteering (in the classic 18th century activist way) and their distribution are endless!

Only problem there is finding a Thai with a printing company, because according to either the Royal Decree or the ABL (forgotten which), foreigners cannot own printing companies, just as they cannot own newspapers or news magazines. It's why "real" farang news is disseminated by the internet (which can be blocked at the click of a mouse by the government agencies - look what they did to YouTube a couple of years back).

^If we sat down with a stack of history books, we could find thousands of examples where change was forced by the little man, the alienated underdog.

Yeah, you're foreigners, but you have clout with the $. Thats a big potential catalyst. Bigger than one might think.

A campaign could make enough of a dent in Thailand's external public relations to make them more mindful about how they deal with crimes against foreigners. And if you shake your head at that observation, you really don't know the power of the media.

Yup - remember Thaksin's lunch with the Foreign Chambers of Commerce where he told them that Thai Rak Thai was not nationalist? Or the mass withdrawal of foreign money following the BOT's "speculator withholding" announcement that took 20% of SET in one day? Or how about Thaksin's insistance (against all domestic advice) that Thailand repay the World Bank and IMF for their 1997 loan, after which he then declared 31 July as National Independence Day "because we have removed foreigners from the Thai financial system" .... and the locals loved him for it.

The only foreigners with the financial clout to make Thailand take notice are the East Asian motor manufacturers and the oil & gas companies operating here. Even collectively, if every farang in the country baled out together on the same day, Thailand wouldn't notice except at the peasant level of the tourism industry.

Last figures I saw said 1.2 million foreigners officially living in Thailand (all visa types) of which just over 500,000 were farangs (all western countries) - sounds like a powerful force? Reality is that only those TEACHING have any power to initiate change - by teaching the students to a common agenda regarding human rights and how foolish Thailand looks internationally with their internal protectionism etc. If done persistently and consistently over decades, we might see a change in a couple of generations.

There's no quick fix, so enjoy what you can and remember the old prayer - "Oh Lord give me strength to change what is possible, the forebearance to endure what cannot, and the wisdom to know the difference".

Analysis and speculation may be a fun distraction, but anyone alluding to the possibility of individuals instigating change are deluding themselves. Dalai Lama maybe could if he became head of the Sangha, GWB could if he ordered an invasion, Thaksin tried (look what happened), Bin Laden is still trying (allegedly), Aung San Suu Chi (sp?) still tries over the border against all odds and fails, ..... so unless you've got a ready made army (of disciples or soldiers) don't frustrate yourself with such thoughts - the stress will put you in an early grave (if the locals don't get you first )

[Journalist]

^ So set up a website !!!!! Doesnt matter if it gets blocked in Thailand, as the message is intended for elsewhere.

Really, you can gainsay me till the cows come 'ome ! Its an easy target. I agree

Far easier to post on a forum. A trillion times easier.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Journalist

[grantbkk]

^^I myself got one of Asia's biggest listed corporations to help out a charity to the tune of about THB 4 million - by discovering the former behaving in a callous uncharitable way, and telling their CEO that if they didn't rectify it, i'd publicly expose them.

They blinked.

This was just 4 weeks ago. Yeah, I was pleased with that, that was a good result.

Just a small thing comparatively speaking, but it was me on my own.

Well get on it then. You should try to use internet cafés from now on and don't mention my screen name during your interrogation. If you get the Thai Police to blink in this case take a photo with your mobile phone and post it here.

Good luck!

[Arkady]

Don't think you are safe because you are respectful toward Thais and keep your head down. I was picked out for victimisation once by politicians and senior police who wanted to get at another politician who was doing business with some one in another part of my company which I had no knowledge of. I only found out about this motive many months later. I am not going to give you the details in this forum but I can tell you that I was extremely lucky to get out of the situation unscathed and be able to stay here. You too can be killed for what some one else has done even though you know nothing about it, like the guy who was murdered outside the Landmark Hotel for not paying the bill of a complete stranger who had done a runner or you might step on some one's toe while out dancing or pick up some big shot's mia noi at Spassos because she is sulking and wants to show him some color (I know of some one who was deported at short notice and made persona non grata for exactly that). We have to accept that the country does not have rule of law and we are only one step from the bottom of the pile when it comes to respect for our rights. Accepting this is a trade off as to how much you like living here and what benefits you get. Refusing to acknowledge you are making this trade off is naive.

Foreigners cannot change this situation. Only Thais can and the key to this is education, education, education. The situation has prevailed since the end of absolute monarchy in 1932 with little change. It will take at least another two generations for things to improve. Meanwhile, poorly educated people will continue to vote for corrupt politicians who have no interest in rule of law or human rights. The tax net will continue to focus on the sandwich class of salaried employees and let the super wealthy of lightly, meaning that government budgets for education, healthcare in particular are inadequate. Much of what is collected in tax will continue to be stolen by politicians and civil servants. But you know what? We might find that a lot of the things we like about Thailand disappear once it has a well educated, highly paid workforce and responsible government and rule of law. By then it might just be a hot, expensive Japan! Even though it will take several more decades for this transformation, popularist politics has set wheels in motion that will eventually make this come about and Thaksin would also hate the end result but will probably not live long enough to see it.

As for Carly, the Canadian Embassy will most likely hand her its standard list of overpriced, incompetent work permit/visa lawyers with half the phone numbers out of date. They may well provide emergency funds to pay her medical bills as a special case to deflect criticism back home and will probably pay for a one way ticket home but her passport will be impounded in Canada until she can pay all of this off. We'll have to see if she ever testifies. I doubt it but maybe she will, if she gets funding from somewhere and isn't too ground down and terrorised. I believe that the embassy would have been motivated to do more to try get justice done, if Carly had also died. Her survival along with her questionable background and contradictory stories is an embarrassment to them as well as to the police. Both now just want her back in Canada and out of their way.

[Journalist]

^ Amen.

A fittting epitaph to the topic.

[abdulrahman]

Don't think you are safe...

Amen.Thank you Arkady for your posts,though I'm the same opinion couldn't have expressed as clear.

Will never understand how so many posters can close their eyes to reality;and they are (apparently) old Thai hands!

[BigSnake]

TAT over to you. This is doing nothing to help your cause. at work

[CarlBkk]

The victim.