Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[Stephen Cleary]

I like it when reasonable posts appear on this thread. Gives me hope. My only point of contention with what Gaz has written here is the bit about officers carrying weapons off duty being against procedure in Thailand. It's not. They are not required to turn in their weapons after a shift or anything of the sort -- they keep them on themselves because, in theory, they are policemen 24 hours a day and are always required to be available for service.

Really? A few people already stated this was against the law, if you are correct I'm very surprised, what made people think it was illegal for cops to carry guns while off duty in Thailand?

Damian

A police officer friend of mine, just a couple of nights ago, mentioned exactly the same thing that BarryMan said - i'm sorry Damian, but it is true. It's another one of them Catch 22 situations. Yes, in theory, Thai police ARE on duty 24 hours a day.

Going on from what BarryMan has written in his latest comment. (nothing to do with Damian). I too have read that crazy Bar Stool rumour about the Kanchanaburi murder and an impersonator doing time on his behalf. Spreading rumours like that is not just plain malice, but also illegal.

Please Damian, i respect your viewpoints, but i'd like to explain one thing in regards to an earlier comment of yours. One of my jobs is to take original stories from the Thai Press and translate them into English. Meaning therefore, i spend as much time reading the Thai language newspapers as i do English. Much is posted in Thai that is never told in English. I can confirm therefore, that Thailand gets more than its fair share of former police officers sentenced to lengthy jail sentences behind bars. In stark contrast to the general Farang belief, Thai police criminals are not let off the hook as easily as what is believed. Times have changed, this is not the 1950s era of Pol. Gen Sarit.

Going back to the case. Again, i can also quote a Thai police officer in saying that "Thai police are trained, that in the event of self-defense, thay are to shoot only once"

Edited January 14, 2008 by Stephen Cleary

[LoveDaBlues]

I'm pleased to see that some people on here, not the majority of course, but some, felt the same way I did when reading Drummond's letter to the Nation today. To whit:

Carly Reisig has a history of getting drunk and violent with police. HOW IN THE hel_l is that not totally relevant to this case involving an altercation with a cop, while she was drunk.

As for earlier posters who basically said I was making up facts about the case, two points:

Reisig's version of events did change. She started with her initial story about how she was skipping down the road with facepaint and enjoying herself only to be randomly assaulted by a policeman, which was clearly enough stated. Then she went on to say that she didn't really remember what happened, or that her memories were "vague". Both of these accounts were reported by Drummond.

If this was a cold-blooded killing, which it may well have been, her changing versions of events does matter. Had she told one consistent story from the start we would a solid place from which to start to find out the truth. By being inconsistent she has harmed the investigation into this case and she owes the family of the deceased an apology.

I used to respect Drummond for "going where others dared not", now I do not. He has not reported on this story fairly, but rather decided from jump that this was Kanchanaburi all over again, before looking into anything about the case at all. That he would later send in a letter to the editor and apologize publicly for reporting on relevant facts shows the type of journalist we're dealing with here. Drummond, as a professional journalist and self-proclaimed expert, should know better than to dismiss eyewitness accounts (if the people in Pai are in fear of the police, why have people come forward to say that the officer was drunk that night? Doesn't wash, but in Drummond's world, all Thais conspire against foreigners: a sentiment that is lapped up on this forum with relish, though thankfully not by everyone).

I wish the Post had someone reliable on this one. The reports I've read from them have seemed more balanced, but they have been few and far between. Having Drummond as the only local option for this story is worrying.

It's not relevant because cops deal with drunks on a regular basis. It's a huge part of the job description. Shooting an unarmed female with a near-fatal shot is not how drunks are dealt with; in Thailand or the UK or the States.

Of course, it is absolutely relevant and to say it is not, is absurd. You could compare it to posters here dismissing evidence of 'a history of violence' for a guy suspected of killing his wife.

As for Lovedeblues, sure Thai police are used to dealing with drunks. But, they are not used to being attacked by a huge drunk Farang woman and probably her ex-boyfriend. Looks like the guy shot in self defense and got carried away. Sure, he deserves to be incarcerated. Same as the Farang woman deserves to be booted out of the Kingdom.

Again, for anyone to say that police do not use violence against drunks in Farangland is absurd - especially in The US.

If you are pissed in The US and get loud with the cops then you will be on the receiving end of a taser gun. Even those these things often kill, the the US cops still commonly use them.

There's a HUGE difference between using a taser (which is SUPPOSED to be non-lethal) to subdue a drunk and shooting a near x-ring shot into the body of an unarmed drunk female. I think most posters get that.

It's amazing how posters with weak arguments will twist what is said to try to prove their point. NOWHERE did I say that cops in 'farangland' don't use force in dealing with drunks. Of course they do; they just don't kill unarmed folks with the alarming regularity that happens here. I think most posters get that too.

Hi, do you have any facts to back up this wild and incorrect statement? What 'alarming regularity'?

Read this entire thread about past shootings by cops and then you'll have a clue. And no......I have no desire to debate what constitutes 'regularity'; I'm sure my definition differs from yours.

I'll do the work for you. http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/04/24/thaila12989.htm

If you believe the cops killed only drug dealers in this 'crackdown' you are truly naive. Know what the police force pays the relatives when a Thai court rules the cops shot and killed an innocent? 5K baht my friend. Life is cheap here; wake up and see what is really going on. I know a Thai family that spent 100K to clear their relatives name after she was shot and killed as a 'drug dealer'. She was a complete innocent (to EVERYONE that knew her history; excluding the cops of course) and another person (among many) killed by rogue cops.

[A_Traveller]

The carrying of firearms by off-duty officers is factual and is indeed the norm. However, unless specifically authorised,the weapon should be in clear view, not concealed, nor for that matter outside the officer's direct control. If, for example, there is truth in the statement {I don't know I wasn't there} that the officer was not initially armed. but then collected his weapon, then that would appear to be a violation.

Police regulations on this cascade from the Firearms, Ammunition, Explosive Articles and Fireworks and Imitation of Firearms Act, B.E. 2490 {1947} and specifically for government employees, Ministerial Regulation No.12 {1981}.

Whilst to a degree off topic, there's an interesting analysis of Firearm issues at this LINK

Regards

[Stephen Cleary]

Another Bar Stool rumour is the one concerning how cheap life is, in that you can get someone 'knocked off' for the likes of 5,000 baht. Yes, in theory you could, i mean search out some drug-addicted loony retard. Employ him though, he's gonna be caught and so are you.

Let me relate some facts about professional gun men. According to one extensivley researched book i read in Thai titled 'Gun Men', they are NOT as cheap as popularly believed. The average rate for knocking off a normal chap on the street is approx. 300,000 baht. The price then goes up to the likes of 10million for a highly influential characters. Anything cheaper than that then the hirer is seriously in trouble of getting caught himself. Likewise, professional gunmen are experts.

Source:

Gun Men: Orasom Suthisakhorn

Edited January 14, 2008 by Stephen Cleary

[DamianMavis]

A police officer friend of mine, just a couple of nights ago, mentioned exactly the same thing that BarryMan said - i'm sorry Damian, but it is true. It's another one of them Catch 22 situations. Yes, in theory, Thai police ARE on duty 24 hours a day.

Going on from what BarryMan has written in his latest comment. (nothing to do with Damian). I too have read that crazy Bar Stool rumour about the Kanchanaburi murder and an impersonator doing time on his behalf. Spreading rumours like that is not just plain malice, but also illegal.

Please Damian, i respect your viewpoints, but i'd like to explain one thing in regards to an earlier comment of yours. One of my jobs is to take original stories from the Thai Press and translate them into English. Meaning therefore, i spend as much time reading the Thai language newspapers as i do English. Much is posted in Thai that is never told in English. I can confirm therefore, that Thailand gets more than its fair share of former police officers sentenced to lengthy jail sentences behind bars. In stark contrast to the general Farang belief, Thai police criminals are not let off the hook as easily as what is believed. Times have changed, this is not the 1950s era of Pol. Gen Sarit.

Going back to the case. Again, i can also quote a Thai police officer in saying that "Thai police are trained, that in the event of self-defense, thay are to shoot only once"

Thanks! That was what I was asking about a while back, Im glad police are being held accountable for some crimes they commit. I also know that accountability is much more common now than 10, 20, 30 years ago. Before it was much worse.

Damian

[LoveDaBlues]

....

...and this event will haunt him in his dreams forever. and yes the shooting was wrong and must get a punishment for it but not from a jury like someone of you.

okay, maybe i am wrong the future will show it.

Yes you are wrong. The only thing that might haunt the murderer in his dreams will be his incompetence in missing Carly Reisig's heart by an inch. ....Get real.

okay, i see you know a lot about the police and so, how thai police man buy his fancy gun from his first corruption money and so. and later is willing to kill, unscrupulous. and than at night time when the police man is in his 'typical' behaivior of getting drunk and ready to jump on a random person in favour of 'painted' face farang woman just to perform a execution on her ex boyfriend. why he have his gun on his motobike and not on his belt? is that typical or a-typical?

how you can be so sure that the police officer in that case is a cold blooded murderer and didn't just had a weak minute of freak out with tragical results he will ever regret?

This does happen like the Chiang Mai traffic cop who in the heat of the moment shot dead a motorist who insulted him but, like him, they are expected to turn the gun on themselves immediately afterwards when they realise the awfulness of what they have done. This guy was deliberately looking for trouble with the foreign couple and did his best to make sure both were dead after his "momentary lapse of self control" was over. Since he was allegedly out on bail for another offence, it would be interesting to know what other tragic incidents he is currently spending a lifetime regretting.

Arkady, if we're thinking of the same incident in CM the cop killed 3 people over a loss of face. The last person was a teenaged girl riding in the back of the truck that never said anything to him prior to the start of the shooting. After the cop shot the first 2 she got on her knees and begged him not to shoot her; he did anyway. He then turned the gun on himself.

[LoveDaBlues]

Another Bar Stool rumour is the one concerning how cheap life is, in that you can get someone 'knocked off' for the likes of 5,000 baht. Yes, in theory you could, i mean search out some drug-addicted loony retard. Employ him though, he's gonna be caught and so are you.

Let me relate some facts about professional gun men. According to one extensivley researched book i read in Thai titled 'Gun Men', they are NOT as cheap as popularly believed. The average rate for knocking off a normal chap on the street is approx. 300,000 baht. The price then goes up to the likes of 10million for a highly influential characters. Anything cheaper than that then the hirer is seriously in trouble of getting caught himself. Likewise, professional gunmen are experts.

Source:

Gun Men: Orasom Suthisakhorn

If you're referring to my post I suggest you re-read it carefully. I said nothing about hiring a hit man.

[Stephen Cleary]

Another Bar Stool rumour is the one concerning how cheap life is, in that you can get someone 'knocked off' for the likes of 5,000 baht. Yes, in theory you could, i mean search out some drug-addicted loony retard. Employ him though, he's gonna be caught and so are you.

Let me relate some facts about professional gun men. According to one extensivley researched book i read in Thai titled 'Gun Men', they are NOT as cheap as popularly believed. The average rate for knocking off a normal chap on the street is approx. 300,000 baht. The price then goes up to the likes of 10million for a highly influential characters. Anything cheaper than that then the hirer is seriously in trouble of getting caught himself. Likewise, professional gunmen are experts.

Source:

Gun Men: Orasom Suthisakhorn

If you're referring to my post I suggest you re-read it carefully. I said nothing about hiring a hit man.

No, i wasn't referring to your post.

Just the sum you mentioned reminded me of another rumour.

[ludosiam]

Quote:

The action on the policemans account. But the trigger has been surely Ms. Reisig - for me she shares a big part of responsibility for her death boyfriend - and that after staying here a year.

I might say until you haven't stayed here longer that 3 years you know nothing and should behave careful and always friendly. But even then some do need longer to learn.

maxi

With all respect for other opinions, let me add that there are a great number of Thais running into this kind of trouble as well with loose police cannons, and I do talk from first hand experience. The incident in pai might have been avoidable with a lot of experience from the foreigners side, but all responsibility for the death is with the shooter. No matter what has happened in detail (we might never learn the full truth) nobody can explain to me that 3 potential fatal shots were needed for self protection, I bet the police officer wasn't a bad gunman and could have easily hit an attacker in the leg. Accidental shooting is out of question anyway.

[LoveDaBlues]

I'm really getting amazed at this topic; the number of ppl who are trying to find a 'defense' for the cop.

Instead of going back to his motorcycle (after being pushed down) and getting a gun and shooting 2 people......why didn't he simply retreat to a safe distance of 25 meters and call for backup?

It's pretty simple really. This tiny man was embarassed because he:

#1 started a situation he couldn't control OR #2 couldn't control a situation he didn't start

and instead of 'backing off' he chose to save face and kill someone and almost kill someone else. Funny, he couldn't retreat to a safe distance BEFORE the shooting but he sure beat his feet AFTER the shooting.

[Galong]

Thus Uthai being called in to break up a domestic quarrel would not have been unusual, though of course his use of excessive force is an entirely different story.

I have heard from a reliable local source that Thai police are not permitted to fire more than one shot in self defence. Obviously, unless Uthai's claims that the shots were accidental (which seems incredible) is true, he is clearly guilty of excessive force.

So what would the charge be for using excessive force resulting in the death of two people? Manslaughter? The possibility of Uthai "accidentally" putting three lethal shots in the guy and one lethal shot in the woman is pretty darn far-fetched in my opinion. Certainly this can't honestly be interpreted as self defense.

[morejunk]

Lots of know it alls giving "information" on this topic. Some of it is probably true.

Does anyone have a verifiable source to confirm whether or not an off duty police officer has the legal right to carry a weapon in public?

[BarryMan]

Thus Uthai being called in to break up a domestic quarrel would not have been unusual, though of course his use of excessive force is an entirely different story.

I have heard from a reliable local source that Thai police are not permitted to fire more than one shot in self defence. Obviously, unless Uthai's claims that the shots were accidental (which seems incredible) is true, he is clearly guilty of excessive force.

So what would the charge be for using excessive force resulting in the death of two people? Manslaughter? The possibility of Uthai "accidentally" putting three lethal shots in the guy and one lethal shot in the woman is pretty darn far-fetched in my opinion. Certainly this can't honestly be interpreted as self defense.

Yes, I agree, pretty far-fetched indeed. My guess is that his killing of Del Pinto would be considered manslaughter (unless forensics backs up his version of events). But that is strictly a guess. Someone earlier made the cogent point that to stop this altercation Uthai could have, at worst, shot one of them in a leg or some such. I would even think that just firing the weapon in the air would have done the job. That he was firing to kill and violating standards of force means he should be brought to answer for that.

Thanks Damian for your earlier post. Surely this is an emotional case for everyone and strong disagreements are bound to develop. I think we're all horrified by what happened and are looking to get to some kernel of truth here.

One point that I would like some discussion on: where does the claim that Uthai went to his motorcycle to get a gun come from? My understanding is that his gun was in its holster and on his person. I could be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge nobody, Ms. Reisig included, has suggested that he went back to his motorcycle and retrieved the gun. Certainly no witnesses suggested that. Yeah, just checked a report with Reisig's account -- she said he pulled the gun, no mention of him having retrieved it from a motorcycle (I think it would be extremely strange for him to have taken the gun off and left it hanging on his motorcycle while ordering food... Why would he?)

Interesting stuff from Stephen. Gives a bit of perspective and balance, and you dealt with one of the most popular urban myths around ie the 5000 baht killers for hire.

[BarryMan]

You're prejudiced because you fail to listen to consider all sides to this story. I have seen no balance in your posts whatsoever, or willingness to consider all sides to the story.

If it's all the same to you, I'm going to close the door on our little back and forth. I have no interest in engaging in any further discussion with you because in my opinion you have nothing of merit to contribute. I'd rather continue reading the interesting posts of people on the ground in Pai than filling this space with a useless attempt to try to get you to think beyond your paranoid imaginings.

PS -- One more unrelated point, I hope nobody gives any credulity to the nonsensical rumor that the policeman in the Kanchanaburi murder case is anywhere other than in jail serving his sentence. He has a double doing the time for him while he whoops it up in Kanchanaburi? What bosh. I hope the concerned families aren't reading crap like that.

Actually I have changed my attitude about this case alot after following the thread. If you remember, the beginning had the cop putting his pistol in Leos mouth and pulling the trigger. Things have changed. I'll stop arguing with you over unrelated stupid stuff, but please just try not to misquote and say things that look like you are stating opinion as fact, just try ok?

In reference to the police officer that may or may not be serving his sentence. Im not saying he isn't, I dont know. But Barry you may be surprised to know crazier things have happened here. I cannot talk about a perfect example, I do use my own name after all, but I'd love to tell you about a horrible/funny example of murderers not doing time they are supposed to be doing. It is just one case I know of so no Im not saying this is normal. But in the case above you mentioned, it wouldnt be as crazy as having a double do his time, he simply wouldnt be in jail like it said he was "on the books". Did the person who talked about this mean it was actually reported in the news? If so then its not "bosh" is it? I dont know, but instead of discounting it immediately I would ask" was this in fact reported and confirmed before being swept under the rug or was it all just rumour?"

Damian

Oh, and no, that has never appeared in a newspaper as far as I know. It was just a rumor, but a very worrying one especially when you consider that the Net might be a source of information for family members of the deceased, who would be justifiably enraged at hearing the killer walked. It's a common urban legend that he is not serving time and that cops never serve time, but nobody has ever provided a bit of proof to show that that is the case.

[BarryMan]

Lots of know it alls giving "information" on this topic. Some of it is probably true.

Does anyone have a verifiable source to confirm whether or not an off duty police officer has the legal right to carry a weapon in public?

Can't find anything on the Net but through local contacts I have established that to be the case. If you want your own verification, then I suggest you call up the tourist police, where you'll get someone who speaks English (or if you speak Thai, any police station), and just ask them. They'll tell you the same thing about cops being on duty 24 hours etc.

[Galong]

Am I correct in assuming that cops in the US and probably elsewhere are on the job 24/7 too?

[A_Traveller]

Report about going to motorcycle and getting gun is in Andrew Drummond's piece. LINK There's also reference to it earlier then this report herein on the 7th, which is after a Guardian piece, which has since been pulled, since the case is under investigation, so it may have been in that too. Can't be sure I didn't read it.

Regards

BarryMan since your spelling is US, are you an American or Canadian perchance, I'm a Brit.

[A_Traveller]

Am I correct in assuming that cops in the US and probably elsewhere are on the job 24/7 too?

Short answer, yes. Search about regulations police firearms to see the ongoing debate about this element. but a police officer is in principal never off duty.

Regards

PS No I'm not one, nor a former one.

[LoveDaBlues]

Thus Uthai being called in to break up a domestic quarrel would not have been unusual, though of course his use of excessive force is an entirely different story.

I have heard from a reliable local source that Thai police are not permitted to fire more than one shot in self defence. Obviously, unless Uthai's claims that the shots were accidental (which seems incredible) is true, he is clearly guilty of excessive force.

So what would the charge be for using excessive force resulting in the death of two people? Manslaughter? The possibility of Uthai "accidentally" putting three lethal shots in the guy and one lethal shot in the woman is pretty darn far-fetched in my opinion. Certainly this can't honestly be interpreted as self defense.

Yes, I agree, pretty far-fetched indeed. My guess is that his killing of Del Pinto would be considered manslaughter (unless forensics backs up his version of events). But that is strictly a guess. Someone earlier made the cogent point that to stop this altercation Uthai could have, at worst, shot one of them in a leg or some such. I would even think that just firing the weapon in the air would have done the job. That he was firing to kill and violating standards of force means he should be brought to answer for that.

Thanks Damian for your earlier post. Surely this is an emotional case for everyone and strong disagreements are bound to develop. I think we're all horrified by what happened and are looking to get to some kernel of truth here.

One point that I would like some discussion on: where does the claim that Uthai went to his motorcycle to get a gun come from? My understanding is that his gun was in its holster and on his person. I could be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge nobody, Ms. Reisig included, has suggested that he went back to his motorcycle and retrieved the gun. Certainly no witnesses suggested that. Yeah, just checked a report with Reisig's account -- she said he pulled the gun, no mention of him having retrieved it from a motorcycle (I think it would be extremely strange for him to have taken the gun off and left it hanging on his motorcycle while ordering food... Why would he?)

Interesting stuff from Stephen. Gives a bit of perspective and balance, and you dealt with one of the most popular urban myths around ie the 5000 baht killers for hire.

For the 2nd time; NOWHERE did I say anything about hiring a hit man.

This is from the post where Reisig says the cop got the gun from his motorcycle:

Here is the front page news from Calgary, the city Leo was from. http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/2008/0...757907-sun.html

The Calgary man shot to death by an off-duty Thai police officer is being touted as a hero for defending a female friend. Carly Reisig said she was punched in the face by the attacker moments before the fatal shots were fired. In an interview with a Thai newspaper from her hospital bed in Chiang Mai, Thailand, Reisig, 24, said Calgarian Leo John Del Pinto was shot twice -- once in the face and once in the chest -- after coming to her aid. "I just want everybody to know Leo saved my life by giving his own and he's a hero in my eyes," Reisig said. The pair, along with Reisig's Thai boyfriend Fuen, were walking from one bar to another in the small town of Pai, in northern Thailand, when a man suddenly approached them and punched her in the forehead.

"Leo shouted at him, 'You can't hit her!' and pushed him away from us," Reisig said. "Then the man went to his motorbike and got his gun and Leo tried to get it away from him. "They had a struggle for the gun, then the man got control of the gun and stepped back and shot Leo directly in the face. "Leo fell to the ground and the man pointed the gun at his heart and fired a second shot. "Then he turned around to me and aimed for my heart and shot me in the chest." Reisig then blacked out, with a bullet lodged in her chest, just 2.5 cm from her heart. "When I came to, I saw Leo lying dead on the road beside me," she said. "I can't believe my best friend is dead and I've got a bullet right beside my heart."

Reached at the family's home in Chilliwack, Reisig's mother Suzanne said, despite previous reports, her daughter was not pregnant. Suzanne said Carly had been in Thailand for about a year, travelling and teaching English, and Del Pinto had joined her a few days before his death. "It's very upsetting," she said. "She's very upset. She saw her friend killed and she's been shot, it's a very terrible situation."

Suzanne said Reisig is still listed in critical condition and she didn't know when her daughter would return to Canada. Del Pinto family spokesman Ross Fortune said the family is hoping Leo's body will be returned to Canada as soon as possible.

"We are hoping by the end of this week, but depending on flights it may not be until next week," he said. Fortune added the family is taking some solace in the fact Leo died protecting a friend. "That is the type of person he was," he said. "Obviously the family is devastated, regardless of the circumstances, but they are very proud of the fact their son is a hero and they certainly regard him that way."

Sgt. Major Uthai Dechawiwat, 37, was arrested and charged with premeditated murder. Thai officials suggested to media there Dechawiwat was trying to break up a fight between the couple when his gun went off during the struggle, a charge Reisig flatly denied.

"There was never a fight, that is not true," she said. "John was my ex-boyfriend, but still my best friend, we had nothing to argue about."

If Reisig has changed her story then so be it. I'll always believe that at SOMETIME in this 'confrontation' this pathetic little Thai man with his bruised ego could have retreated and called for backup rather than shoot 2 people, IMHO of course.

[TAWP]

After watching cops with a policeman at 1.70 being pummeled in hand-to-hand by a 2m tall boxer, we can safely presume this police officer is both a coward and under-trained...

And the lack of call for backup, unwillingness to secure the scene and having to 'give himself up' post-events shows that not even he thought it was justified.

[BarryMan]

Thus Uthai being called in to break up a domestic quarrel would not have been unusual, though of course his use of excessive force is an entirely different story.

I have heard from a reliable local source that Thai police are not permitted to fire more than one shot in self defence. Obviously, unless Uthai's claims that the shots were accidental (which seems incredible) is true, he is clearly guilty of excessive force.

So what would the charge be for using excessive force resulting in the death of two people? Manslaughter? The possibility of Uthai "accidentally" putting three lethal shots in the guy and one lethal shot in the woman is pretty darn far-fetched in my opinion. Certainly this can't honestly be interpreted as self defense.

Yes, I agree, pretty far-fetched indeed. My guess is that his killing of Del Pinto would be considered manslaughter (unless forensics backs up his version of events). But that is strictly a guess. Someone earlier made the cogent point that to stop this altercation Uthai could have, at worst, shot one of them in a leg or some such. I would even think that just firing the weapon in the air would have done the job. That he was firing to kill and violating standards of force means he should be brought to answer for that.

Thanks Damian for your earlier post. Surely this is an emotional case for everyone and strong disagreements are bound to develop. I think we're all horrified by what happened and are looking to get to some kernel of truth here.

One point that I would like some discussion on: where does the claim that Uthai went to his motorcycle to get a gun come from? My understanding is that his gun was in its holster and on his person. I could be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge nobody, Ms. Reisig included, has suggested that he went back to his motorcycle and retrieved the gun. Certainly no witnesses suggested that. Yeah, just checked a report with Reisig's account -- she said he pulled the gun, no mention of him having retrieved it from a motorcycle (I think it would be extremely strange for him to have taken the gun off and left it hanging on his motorcycle while ordering food... Why would he?)

Interesting stuff from Stephen. Gives a bit of perspective and balance, and you dealt with one of the most popular urban myths around ie the 5000 baht killers for hire.

For the 2nd time; NOWHERE did I say anything about hiring a hit man.

This is from the post where Reisig says the cop got the gun from his motorcycle:

Here is the front page news from Calgary, the city Leo was from. http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/2008/0...757907-sun.html

The Calgary man shot to death by an off-duty Thai police officer is being touted as a hero for defending a female friend. Carly Reisig said she was punched in the face by the attacker moments before the fatal shots were fired. In an interview with a Thai newspaper from her hospital bed in Chiang Mai, Thailand, Reisig, 24, said Calgarian Leo John Del Pinto was shot twice -- once in the face and once in the chest -- after coming to her aid. "I just want everybody to know Leo saved my life by giving his own and he's a hero in my eyes," Reisig said. The pair, along with Reisig's Thai boyfriend Fuen, were walking from one bar to another in the small town of Pai, in northern Thailand, when a man suddenly approached them and punched her in the forehead.

"Leo shouted at him, 'You can't hit her!' and pushed him away from us," Reisig said. "Then the man went to his motorbike and got his gun and Leo tried to get it away from him. "They had a struggle for the gun, then the man got control of the gun and stepped back and shot Leo directly in the face. "Leo fell to the ground and the man pointed the gun at his heart and fired a second shot. "Then he turned around to me and aimed for my heart and shot me in the chest." Reisig then blacked out, with a bullet lodged in her chest, just 2.5 cm from her heart. "When I came to, I saw Leo lying dead on the road beside me," she said. "I can't believe my best friend is dead and I've got a bullet right beside my heart."

Reached at the family's home in Chilliwack, Reisig's mother Suzanne said, despite previous reports, her daughter was not pregnant. Suzanne said Carly had been in Thailand for about a year, travelling and teaching English, and Del Pinto had joined her a few days before his death. "It's very upsetting," she said. "She's very upset. She saw her friend killed and she's been shot, it's a very terrible situation."

Suzanne said Reisig is still listed in critical condition and she didn't know when her daughter would return to Canada. Del Pinto family spokesman Ross Fortune said the family is hoping Leo's body will be returned to Canada as soon as possible.

"We are hoping by the end of this week, but depending on flights it may not be until next week," he said. Fortune added the family is taking some solace in the fact Leo died protecting a friend. "That is the type of person he was," he said. "Obviously the family is devastated, regardless of the circumstances, but they are very proud of the fact their son is a hero and they certainly regard him that way."

Sgt. Major Uthai Dechawiwat, 37, was arrested and charged with premeditated murder. Thai officials suggested to media there Dechawiwat was trying to break up a fight between the couple when his gun went off during the struggle, a charge Reisig flatly denied.

"There was never a fight, that is not true," she said. "John was my ex-boyfriend, but still my best friend, we had nothing to argue about."

If Reisig has changed her story then so be it. I'll always believe that at SOMETIME in this 'confrontation' this pathetic little Thai man with his bruised ego could have retreated and called for backup rather than shoot 2 people, IMHO of course.

Thanks for the links and quotes... It was not in reports on the story here and here (it has been said on this thread that the latter was written by a reporter on the scene writing under a pen-name). I would like to hear what eyewitnesses say about this. It's a shame that Drummond prejudiced the case by saying that locals in Pai were not to be trusted -- a claim that has been proven wrong by the Bebop waiter who went on record as saying Uthai was drunk that night, and from Sabaijai's reports from the ground.

Seems odd to me that he would have taken off his gun holster and left it hanging on his motorbike, if that is what is being suggested, while going to order food. Not impossible, just odd.

And nobody is trying to justify Uthai's shootings; you're certainly right about how he should have called for backup and arrested Reisig, if it's true that she started the physical altercation, which local accounts bear out.

Any word from anyone on the progress of forensic investigations into this?

PS - Re: my nationality, good investigative work there, you caught me by my spelling. I'm a Yank.

Edited January 14, 2008 by BarryMan

[LoveDaBlues]

Thus Uthai being called in to break up a domestic quarrel would not have been unusual, though of course his use of excessive force is an entirely different story.

I have heard from a reliable local source that Thai police are not permitted to fire more than one shot in self defence. Obviously, unless Uthai's claims that the shots were accidental (which seems incredible) is true, he is clearly guilty of excessive force.

So what would the charge be for using excessive force resulting in the death of two people? Manslaughter? The possibility of Uthai "accidentally" putting three lethal shots in the guy and one lethal shot in the woman is pretty darn far-fetched in my opinion. Certainly this can't honestly be interpreted as self defense.

Yes, I agree, pretty far-fetched indeed. My guess is that his killing of Del Pinto would be considered manslaughter (unless forensics backs up his version of events). But that is strictly a guess. Someone earlier made the cogent point that to stop this altercation Uthai could have, at worst, shot one of them in a leg or some such. I would even think that just firing the weapon in the air would have done the job. That he was firing to kill and violating standards of force means he should be brought to answer for that.

Thanks Damian for your earlier post. Surely this is an emotional case for everyone and strong disagreements are bound to develop. I think we're all horrified by what happened and are looking to get to some kernel of truth here.

One point that I would like some discussion on: where does the claim that Uthai went to his motorcycle to get a gun come from? My understanding is that his gun was in its holster and on his person. I could be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge nobody, Ms. Reisig included, has suggested that he went back to his motorcycle and retrieved the gun. Certainly no witnesses suggested that. Yeah, just checked a report with Reisig's account -- she said he pulled the gun, no mention of him having retrieved it from a motorcycle (I think it would be extremely strange for him to have taken the gun off and left it hanging on his motorcycle while ordering food... Why would he?)

Interesting stuff from Stephen. Gives a bit of perspective and balance, and you dealt with one of the most popular urban myths around ie the 5000 baht killers for hire.

For the 2nd time; NOWHERE did I say anything about hiring a hit man.

This is from the post where Reisig says the cop got the gun from his motorcycle:

Here is the front page news from Calgary, the city Leo was from. http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/2008/0...757907-sun.html

The Calgary man shot to death by an off-duty Thai police officer is being touted as a hero for defending a female friend. Carly Reisig said she was punched in the face by the attacker moments before the fatal shots were fired. In an interview with a Thai newspaper from her hospital bed in Chiang Mai, Thailand, Reisig, 24, said Calgarian Leo John Del Pinto was shot twice -- once in the face and once in the chest -- after coming to her aid. "I just want everybody to know Leo saved my life by giving his own and he's a hero in my eyes," Reisig said. The pair, along with Reisig's Thai boyfriend Fuen, were walking from one bar to another in the small town of Pai, in northern Thailand, when a man suddenly approached them and punched her in the forehead.

"Leo shouted at him, 'You can't hit her!' and pushed him away from us," Reisig said. "Then the man went to his motorbike and got his gun and Leo tried to get it away from him. "They had a struggle for the gun, then the man got control of the gun and stepped back and shot Leo directly in the face. "Leo fell to the ground and the man pointed the gun at his heart and fired a second shot. "Then he turned around to me and aimed for my heart and shot me in the chest." Reisig then blacked out, with a bullet lodged in her chest, just 2.5 cm from her heart. "When I came to, I saw Leo lying dead on the road beside me," she said. "I can't believe my best friend is dead and I've got a bullet right beside my heart."

Reached at the family's home in Chilliwack, Reisig's mother Suzanne said, despite previous reports, her daughter was not pregnant. Suzanne said Carly had been in Thailand for about a year, travelling and teaching English, and Del Pinto had joined her a few days before his death. "It's very upsetting," she said. "She's very upset. She saw her friend killed and she's been shot, it's a very terrible situation."

Suzanne said Reisig is still listed in critical condition and she didn't know when her daughter would return to Canada. Del Pinto family spokesman Ross Fortune said the family is hoping Leo's body will be returned to Canada as soon as possible.

"We are hoping by the end of this week, but depending on flights it may not be until next week," he said. Fortune added the family is taking some solace in the fact Leo died protecting a friend. "That is the type of person he was," he said. "Obviously the family is devastated, regardless of the circumstances, but they are very proud of the fact their son is a hero and they certainly regard him that way."

Sgt. Major Uthai Dechawiwat, 37, was arrested and charged with premeditated murder. Thai officials suggested to media there Dechawiwat was trying to break up a fight between the couple when his gun went off during the struggle, a charge Reisig flatly denied.

"There was never a fight, that is not true," she said. "John was my ex-boyfriend, but still my best friend, we had nothing to argue about."

If Reisig has changed her story then so be it. I'll always believe that at SOMETIME in this 'confrontation' this pathetic little Thai man with his bruised ego could have retreated and called for backup rather than shoot 2 people, IMHO of course.

Thanks for the links and quotes... It was not in reports on the story here and here (it has been said on this thread that the latter was written by a reporter on the scene writing under a pen-name). I would like to hear what eyewitnesses say about this. It's a shame that Drummond prejudiced the case by saying that locals in Pai were not to be trusted -- a claim that has been proven wrong by the Bebop waiter who went on record as saying Uthai was drunk that night, and from Sabaijai's reports from the ground.

Seems odd to me that he would have taken off his gun holster and left it hanging on his motorbike, if that is what is being suggested, while going to order food. Not impossible, just odd.

And nobody is trying to justify Uthai killing two unarmed people; you're certainly right about how he should have called for backup and arrested Reisig, if it's true that she started the physical altercation, which local accounts bear out.

Any word from anyone on the progress of forensic investigations into this?

PS - Re: my nationality, good investigative work there, you caught me by my spelling. I'm a Yank.

If he did go back to the bike for his gun it was probably secured under the seat.

Does anyone really believe that after seeing Leo shot that Reisig would then attack the cop? She was not falling-down drunk by any account; rather intoxicated but still walking on her own and clowning around or play-fighting. Even if the cop had to shoot the male in self-defense (which I don't personally believe) he had no reason to turn the gun on Reisig and shoot her center-mass.

[sbk]

***OFF TOPIC***

Can I please make a suggestion? It is not necessary to quote people's entire posts but to quote only the relevant part by using the quote or reply function and then deleting out all the extraneous content.

It makes it very difficult to follow a post or a thread when people quote almost an entire page of text and then add a few sentences on the bottom.

Thank you, now return to the discussion at hand.

[Khun Jean]

...."Leo shouted at him, 'You can't hit her!' and pushed him away from us," Reisig said. "Then the man went to his motorbike and got his gun and Leo tried to get it away from him....

It could mean that he went back to his motorbike and got his gun out of his holster. She was drunk at the time and things were happening very fast and in a stressed situation.

[sabaijai]

quote Arkady:

"We have to accept that the country does not have rule of law and we are only one step from the bottom of the pile when it comes to respect for our rights. Accepting this is a trade off as to how much you like living here and what benefits you get. Refusing to acknowledge you are making this trade off is naive.

Foreigners cannot change this situation."

I couldn't agree with you more Arkady, but I am not as optimistic as you in how and if it can change.

If true - and I agree with you both - then the victims' behaviour and local history become very, very relevant. If in Thailand it isn't rule of law that carries the day, then it's the rules of status and power. Violate those rules and/or provoke those in uniform and you must acknowledge the potential consequences just as surely as you should, as Arkady writes, acknowledge the trade-offs.

[LoveDaBlues]

After all the speculation on the 'details' the following are the basic facts.

An armed cop shot 2 unarmed people. The 2nd person shot was a female. The cop ran away.

The 'official' version has more holes in it than the people shot.

Pathetic little man, I hope he gets his punishment but I doubt anything will happen in the long run.

[sabaijai]

After all the speculation on the 'details' the following are the basic facts.

An armed cop shot 2 unarmed people. The 2nd person shot was a female. The cop ran away.

The 'official' version has more holes in it than the people shot.

Pathetic little man, I hope he gets his punishment but I doubt anything will happen in the long run.

Only if you see everything in black and white, with no shades of grey. However no court system would see it this simply, even in Thailand. There's a substantial list of investigative procedures, situational factors, intent, etc to be examined ... if you believe in justice.

[meemiathai]

Now if you look at the police as a "closed system" that cannot be threatened from within or without for fear of upsetting the balance of things you begin to understand why they protect their own at all costs. Very powerful people have ownership in this system and if it becomes threatened, history will show they close ranks and protect what is theirs. If the lower ranking officers are not protected from culpability or at the very least protected from jail and continue to receive a salary to feed the family, the system will breakdown. The police commanders must have the unwaivering support of the rank and file to sustain the cash flow and maintain the status quo. It is quite easy for the police to ride out the media storm by making moves we have all seen before. A quick arrest and the obligatory reassignment to an "inactive post". Additional action will be seen by the rank and file as a weakness in the command staff and the system will be in jeopardy. In their mind it is really a case of "us (police) versus them (anyone else).

can you explain more? how would one cop going to jail break down their system?

It is like gangsters. If the big brother does not support the little brothers, how would the little brothers support the big brother.

grantbkk made a good post, I think.

Guess how many illegal stuff the police gets involved in on a daily basis. And how many things this policeman know is going on. Do people think he is going to stay quiet about what he knows if his life is going to be fvcked up? Police are going to protect police anywhere in the world especially in a developing country.

Edited January 14, 2008 by meemiathai

[Galong]

After all the speculation on the 'details' the following are the basic facts.

An armed cop shot 2 unarmed people. The 2nd person shot was a female. The cop ran away.

The 'official' version has more holes in it than the people shot.

Pathetic little man, I hope he gets his punishment but I doubt anything will happen in the long run.

Hammer > Nail > Head Unfortunately, I think your last sentence is correct too. I sure would like to be wrong.

Furthermore, if he had his pistol under his motorbike seat, I see that as a bit irresponsible. A crowbar and vwalla! A bad guy has got a gun! What a minute, a bad guy had the gun in the first place.

[chiang mai]

Whoa, long thread, can't be bothered to read it all but just in case anyone is shocked that a policeman who had committed murder would be released on bail, they do the same thing in the UK it seems. See the link:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080114/tuk...-fa6b408_2.html