Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[Arkady]

I don't think it makes much difference whether it can be argued that the shots were carefully aimed at the head or the heart or not. The policeman pulled out a gun while off duty, out of uniform and drunk when it is highly unlikely that there was any possible threat to his life or any one else's, even if he was in fact hit by Reisig. If Del Pinto really was struggling to get position of the gun, we can assume that this was not a situation where he could have just put his hands up and apologised, even if he did in fact understand that Uthai was a policeman. It must have looked to him that Uthai was about to shoot him or Carly or both and that he had no choice but to try to save his and Carly's lives. There is no information about trajectory of the shots. However, possibly the first shot was not deliberately aimed at Del Pinto's head but, if not, it is most likely that it was being aimed at his body. Perhaps Uthai aimed for the body but Del Pinto managed to deflect the gun upwards but not far enough. Having been badly wounded in the face, it is unlikely that Del Pinto was putting up any further resistance, if he ever did put up any. The second and third shots were most likely fired by Uthai with full possession of his gun and no signs of resistance from either Del Pinto or Reisig. I would assume that at that point he was definitely trying to kill both of them, either because he was extremely angry due his perceived loss of face or he was already thinking that, since he might have killed Del Pinto with the first shot, he would be better off killing both of them to eliminate them as witnesses.

Lord knows how the Thai police do their weapon training but police in most countries are usually trained to aim for the bulk of the body, not specifically the heart and certainly not the head. The objective is to aim for the biggest target to have the best chance of stopping the suspect so that he will cease to endanger the life of the shooter or others. Also bearing in mind that he was very drunk and probably shaking with the emotion of losing face, it is logical to conclude that the second and third shots were body shots, exactly as he intended, fired with intent to kill and he left the scene believing that both victims were dead and not in a position to dispute whatever story he would come up with.

Unfortunately, the fact that Reising survived is now looking like only a minor inconvenience for Uthai and his colleagues. They are the ones responsible for putting together the murder case to the prosecution. No action at all from the Canadian government or Embassy apart from the blandest of acknowledgements at this already late stage in the game indicates that they have no intention of trying to use their influence to level the playing field a bit for the victims and nobody else can help them.

[bulmercke]

Thai officer says Canadian was shot during scuffle

Gwendolyn Richards, CanWest News Service

Published: Thursday, January 10, 2008

A Thai police officer accused of murdering a Calgary man says the fatal shots were fired as the officer fell during a struggle with Leo Del Pinto.

On Wednesday, Sgt. Maj. Uthai Dechawiwat told the Calgary Herald that Del Pinto and his friend, Carly Reisig, hit and pushed the officer after he was asked to intervene in a fight they were having early Sunday morning in the northern Thai town of Pai.

He said the pair pushed him into a motorcycle and, as the off-duty officer fell, his gun came loose from his holster.

He said he and Del Pinto struggled for the gun and, as he wrenched it from the Calgary man's hands, the officer fell backwards and the three shots that killed Del Pinto and wounded Reisig were fired.

That's a vastly different picture than Reisig has painted.

The woman, who is still recovering from a bullet wound to her chest in a hospital bed in Chiang Mai, Thailand, said she and Del Pinto were play-fighting, but causing no harm when Dechawiwat intervened and pulled out a gun.

Reisig said she and Del Pinto had a playful relationship and may have been loud after they left a bar early Sunday morning.

"We hadn't seen each other in a long time," she said. "We weren't causing any harm to each other."

Reisig has been in hospital since early Sunday morning. Del Pinto died at the scene.

Dechawiwat, 37, has been charged with premeditated murder and attempted murder in the case.

He has been released as the investigation continues.

Reisig said the officer, who did not identify himself, punched her as she and Del Pinto were walking down the road.

Del Pinto rushed to defend Reisig and pushed the man, who then pulled out a gun, Reisig said. After struggling to gain control of the pistol, she said, Del Pinto was shot in the head and chest.

An American who used to live in the town where the shooting occurred said he believes Reisig's version of events, largely because the accused officer has a reputation for gunplay.

The Florida native, who wished to be identified only as Rob, lived in the northern Thai town of Pai for eight months and is an acquaintance of both Reisig and her Thai boyfriend.

Rob told the Vancouver Province from his current home in Chiang Mai that he attended a concert in Pai in the fall of 2006 during which the officer fired into the air several times.

"He was drunk. All the off-duty officers were drinking together," said Rob. "He fired his weapon into the air and everyone had to scatter. He has a reputation in town for pulling out his weapon."

He said Dechawiwat is known in the town of 2,500 "for not behaving the way a sergeant should, even when he's not on duty."

Andrew Drummond, a journalist in Bangkok, told the CBC there are villagers backing up the officer's story that it was Reisig who attacked the officer first, after he was called to calm her and Del Pinto down.

"Of course, you have to take this all with a little bit of a pinch of salt. Nobody in Pai is going to give evidence against their local policeman," Drummond said, explaining Pai residents are afraid of the police.

Reisig, whose medical insurance ran out three days before the shooting, has been moved out of intensive care.

"I think we're all concerned about (Carly's medical bills) at this point, because we don't know what's going to happen," said her mother, Suzanne Reisig, in Chilliwack, B.C.

"I'm sure it will be thousands."

Calgary Herald, Vancouver Province

[bulmercke]

Sgt. Uthai Dechawiwat, right, acts out how he was knocked over a motorcycle in the tussle with Carly Reisig and Leo Del Pinto.

We were playfighting, victim says

Gwendolyn Richards , Calgary Herald

Published: Wednesday, January 09, 2008

A woman recovering from a bullet wound to her chest in a shooting that also saw a Calgary man killed said they were playfighting but causing no harm when an off-duty police officer intervened and pulled out a gun.

Carly Reisig, speaking from her hospital bed in Chiang Mai, said she and Calgarian Leo Del Pinto had a playfighting relationship and may have been loud after they left a bar in the northern Thai town of Pai early Sunday morning.

"We hadn't seen each other in a long time," she said. "We weren't causing any harm to each other."

Reisig has been in hospital since early Sunday morning after she and Del Pinto, 25, were shot. Del Pinto died at the scene.

A police officer has been charged with premeditated murder and attempted murder in the case.

Reisig said the officer, who did not identify himself, punched her as she and Del Pinto were walking down the road.

Del Pinto rushed to defend Reisig and pushed the man, who then pulled out a gun. After struggling to gain control of the pistol, Del Pinto was shot in the head and chest.

Reisig was also shot in the chest, the bullet narrowly missing her heart.

Witnesses reported Del Pinto and Reisig had been arguing and Sgt. Uthai Dechawiwat had been asked to intervene.

Dechawiwat has been released as the investigation continues.

In another published interview, Reisig claims not to remember anything before Uthai approached.

http://www.showbizspy.com/2008/01/09/girl-...a-troublemaker/

The reports you are pasting in this thread all hinge on Reisig's testimony alone. There were also eyewitness reports that say that Uthai ID'ed himself verbally as police, and that Reisig assaulted Uthai first.

There are three possibilities, 1) Uthai is telling the truth, 2) Reisig is telling the truth, or 3) neither is telling the truth. Until all recorded testimony is in, we can't definitely say which view is correct. Getting at the truth is further complicated by the fact that it was the middle of the night, it was dark, and most potential witnesses at that hour and that spot in town would tend to be drunk, high or fatigued. The principals in the case also appear to have been inebriated.

Are you insuating that Uthai was an under-cover cop? (Quite possible.)

And yes it was dark - and perhaps fairly quiet - like how Kanchanaburi was at the time of that other infamous incident - but nothing goes unnoticed when you're 'farang' and outwardly drawing attention to yourselves.

[Chloe82]

Both victims were shot ruthlessly and unmercifully in the chest -

He wanted them to die - this was a calculated shooting -

Care to cite your source(s) for this information?

Both victims were not shot in the chest, Del Pinto was shot in the abdomen.

CALGARY - An autopsy has been completed on a Calgary man who was shot and killed in Thailand.

Coroner Pat Job said an autopsy Monday confirmed that Leo Del Pinto, 25, died from two gunshot wounds.

She said there was one bullet in the right cheek and one in the abdomen.

Del Pinto's body arrived back in Canada early Saturday.

On Jan. 6, Del Pinto and his friend Carly Reisig were returning home from a bar in Pai when an off-duty Thai police officer approached them.

Del Pinto was shot in the head and chest and later died. Reisig was shot in the chest and is recovering in a Thai hospital.

http://www.dose.ca/news/story.html?id=96e3...77-24cff1024d3a

[sabaijai]

Are you insuating that Uthai was an under-cover cop? (Quite possible.)

Uthai was a regular cop who was off duty and dressed in civilian clothes.

[farang prince]

Rather than speculate about whether the individuals involved in this tragic incident were under the influence of drugs or alcohol, I would rather wait for the toxicology reports to come in. In Unthai's case, this will definitely have a bearing on how the prosecution will proceed. And for those skeptics out there that claim that the toxicology results will be fudged, I'm not convinced. Saving one lowly cop's ass from prison is not worth the shitstorm that would be created if the toxicology report is found to be cooked.

[Johpa]

I said it before, he's not going to be punished at all, not even a transfer. The only thing that can be done is the Canadian government using pressure to get results but they are too weak and timid... makes me ashamed.

Get over it. No western government is going to rock the boat over this incident, or any similar tourist incident in places like Koh Phangan, Bali, Goa, ....the list goes on. The people involved were young tourists and not part of the business community. There are enough unknowns, and unknowables, that government pressure is just not going to happen. The story might make for sensationalist speculation on this forum ad naseum, and some journalists might jump on board to sell a few articles to the international press, but government pressure is simply not now, nor will it ever be, in the cards here.

[tattoodrob]

to danielle,

i think you will get a sense of the way thailand operates here by most of the posts...most of us are enraged at this unnecessary death and sympathetic to the families involved,but we are also enraged as we know that things get covered up here more than they would in any western country.we want justice for leo and also getting justice for him means it might make another cop think before he shoots a foreigner again for next to no reason.if they get away with it everytime then it will go on forever.i hope the true story comes out and that justice prevails but to be honest it wont be easy.maybe you can pass on information as to how hard it is to get justice here, but we all want it in this case.most of the posters here are supporters of getting justice for leo and u should just ignore the people who generally talk stupid as they dont really mean what they say...some here like antagonosing others..i have done this on occasion but not on topics as serious as this.

take care

[seonai]

Not particularly connected to the case but I was interested in what Bulmerke (post 1172 I think) about the male victims eyes - very true. Unfortunately I can't say the same about Reisig... sorry but I see something else there...

[LoveDaBlues]

What will the mindset be of this pathetic little copper when he gets off (almost guaranteed) and not even transferred(maybe). Will he: (1) realize another incident probably won't be tolerated even by the Thais or (2) will he be emboldened and think he's untouchable? If it's #2 I'd leave Pai if I lived there; he's a loose cannon.

[LoveDaBlues]

Not particularly connected to the case but I was interested in what Bulmerke (post 1172 I think) about the male victims eyes - very true. Unfortunately I can't say the same about Reisig... sorry but I see something else there...

Yes, she does look a bit 'hard' doesn't she.

As I said before though, dealing with drunks is a big part of a cop's job description. At the point he gained control of the gun this tiny man could have simply run away and called for backup instead of shooting. So many people in history killed over ego.

[LoveDaBlues]

I said it before, he's not going to be punished at all, not even a transfer. The only thing that can be done is the Canadian government using pressure to get results but they are too weak and timid... makes me ashamed.

Get over it. No western government is going to rock the boat over this incident, or any similar tourist incident in places like Koh Phangan, Bali, Goa, ....the list goes on. The people involved were young tourists and not part of the business community. There are enough unknowns, and unknowables, that government pressure is just not going to happen. The story might make for sensationalist speculation on this forum ad naseum, and some journalists might jump on board to sell a few articles to the international press, but government pressure is simply not now, nor will it ever be, in the cards here.

Johpa is right. The only way there would be justice here is if the tourists involved were important on a national scale. IF Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie were the tourists involved and things went down exactly the same what would be happening right now?

[geriatrickid]

You cannot have it both ways: Stating that the deceased and injured subjects have been smeared and yet engaging in the same conduct of those that you have previously accused. Have a look at your biased rhetoric;

1.The policeman pulled out a gun while off duty, out of uniform and drunk when it is highly unlikely that there was any possible threat to his life or any one else's, even if he was in fact hit by Reisig.

2. There is no information about trajectory of the shots.

I would assume that at that point he was definitely trying to kill both of them,

3.fired with intent to kill and he left the scene believing that both victims were dead and not in a position to dispute whatever story he would come up with.

1. How do you know he was drunk? Do you have access to his blood alcohol levels or the results of a sobriety exam? One can no more state as fact that the police man was drunk, than one can say the deceased and injured were either doped up or drunk. Until one has definitive evidence it is wrong to label any party as drunk.

You state the policeman had no likely threat. How can any judgement be rendered when the investigation is not complete? The injured female has stated that the deceased had physical contact with the police officer. Unfortunately, this can be grounds for a police officer to discharge a weapon. One will not know for sure if the justification was there, until the investigation is complete, but the threshold test was met.

2. First you acknowledge there is no knowledge of the trajectory (or the discharge distance for that matter) but then you make an assumption of the intent. Just as you claim to want justice for the deceased and injured, you too have an obligation to ensure justice is allowed for the accused. Fortunately, the law does not convict on the basis of assumptions alone but on credible, demonstrable evidence, of which none has been assembled that meets the conviction requirements.

3. How can you again make such an unsubstantiated wild statement indicating that you are aware of what the police officer was thinking? You can't prove in any way that the policeman believed the subjects were both dead. If anything, the extent of the female's wounds would have left her in an painful state and she'd have been thrashing about. Had the officer gone up and fired off a couple rounds into the craniums, yes I could see your point. However, there is no evidence whatsoever to show that he believed that both were dead.

Making outlandish claims or statements as to what the policeman's was thinking puts you on the same footing of those that would claim the subjects "got what they deserved" or other insensitive assertions. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. We have a duty not to rush to hasty conclusions and to convict without a clear showing of all material facts. As it is unlikely the full evidence will be made public until the court dates we will not have a definitive answer. Painful for those that want their answers now, but cases like this take time to resolve.

[BarryMan]

to danielle,

i think you will get a sense of the way thailand operates here by most of the posts...most of us are enraged at this unnecessary death and sympathetic to the families involved,but we are also enraged as we know that things get covered up here more than they would in any western country.we want justice for leo and also getting justice for him means it might make another cop think before he shoots a foreigner again for next to no reason.if they get away with it everytime then it will go on forever.i hope the true story comes out and that justice prevails but to be honest it wont be easy.maybe you can pass on information as to how hard it is to get justice here, but we all want it in this case.most of the posters here are supporters of getting justice for leo and u should just ignore the people who generally talk stupid as they dont really mean what they say...some here like antagonosing others..i have done this on occasion but not on topics as serious as this.

take care

Dear Danielle,

Please, in the interests of fairness, disregard this paranoid expatriate's comments. If you look into the number of shootings involving cops and foreigners in Thailand, it is extremely low. This was a sad, freak occurrence. All of the evidence has yet to come in, so it is too early for us to judge what exactly took place. And it's up to the courts here to do that judging. I've engaged in some armchair speculation, but I'm going to try to stop that now. Especially since you're on here... we need to be a bit more circumspect in what we write here.

I ask you to take heart in what Stephen Cleary, a long-time expat who also writes for a national newspaper, had to say about the myth of Thai police never being arrested for their crimes. He reads Thai newspapers on a daily basis, which I think it would be a fair guess to say none of the posters who write in with their conspiracy theories do, and he stated clearly that this perception is wrong, that police go away all the time for all sorts of crimes.

Locals are speaking freely on this case, and that should hearten you in terms of justice. They've already went on the record with journalists, and from Sabaijai's report (he is actually on the ground in Pai, the only one on here who is) would be willing to do so at a trial. The policeman involved was not an upper-level officer; it is not worth it to any Thai involved, from the policemen in that village, to the people whose very livelihood depends on tourism, to be perceived as a cowboy town where officers who kill randomly get off scot-free. I have yet to hear of one similar incident taking place in Pai in recent memory.

Some of the posters on here would represent your last chance at seeing justice fairly done here. Their opinions are colored by their own emotions, and the paranoia they have cultivated nicely by living in a foreign land. They are rightly ignored by mainstream Thais.

I've tried, as best I could, to bring this debate to a discussion on facts but if it keeps on getting dragged down into paranoia and Thai-bashing at all costs... Well what's the point of discussing things? There's nothing to contribute anymore. I'll just read the thread for Sabaijai's posts and try my best to gloss quickly over the rest.

Danielle, I hope this note is taken in the spirit in which it was intended -- an interest to see justice done, and justice means not giving into the highly prejudicial unbalanced views of posters such as the guy above.

Again, my sincere condolences, and I hope the consular assistance has improved for your family and that you are able to get answers directly, and not through the heavily filtered lens of this forum. I've heard some say "Well, what more can Canada do?", well I think it can do more. Personally, I don't think it would be beyond the capabilities of the Canadian government to engage the services of a Thai speaker, and get them on the phone with authorities here to give the family a needed update on what's happening. Certainly Canada has the resources, and no family should be left in the dark at such a frightening time. They could also work with a Thai consulate, or the embassy if native Thai speakers are in short supply in Calgary.

[thaigene2]

Both victims were shot ruthlessly and unmercifully in the chest -

He wanted them to die - this was a calculated shooting -

Care to cite your source(s) for this information?

Can you please state, once and for all, your self-interest in the opposing view point?

Opposed to what? My self interest is in learning the truth. And yours?

I want to know the truth - but the Thai police officer's story just doesn't cut it. It may well turn out that the charges are downgraded to manslaughter and criminal negligence...whatever. He did it.

You, on the other hand, seem to be a chronic apologist for the actions of a drunken off-duty cop, with a history of firing his gun whilst drunk, and who pumped three shots into two unarmed toursits. Fight or no fight, insults or no insults, - so what?

Is your main message "dear backpackers and others, don't cancel your holiday plans for northern Thailand?"

[dannyman]

What in the hel_l would anyone do? You have had just arrived for a few day's to a foreign land and one late nitght you come out to a dark soi from a bar. Suddenly a man comes up to you announcing he is "POLICE" you see this guy in street clothe"s.Think about it.

'

[kat]

I've tried, as best I could, to bring this debate to a discussion on facts but if it keeps on getting dragged down into paranoia and Thai-bashing at all costs... Well what's the point of discussing things? There's nothing to contribute anymore. I'll just read the thread for Sabaijai's posts and try my best to gloss quickly over the rest.

Stating well-documented cases and facts, is not Thai bashing or paranoia, but simply stating reality as it exists and has existed previously. There is no need to rely solely on the opinion of "guides" or "writers" of Thai newspapers, because if you have the facts of what has occurred before hand, you can arrive at your own conclusions without a guided "tour" of the facts. you can read accounts of recent stories for yourself. Unfortunately, it seems that many of these stories are much harder to find now through an independent search on the internet; they may have been removed. Somehow, they have disappeared from the newspaper archives as well. There is still some mention of them in other forums, which will give you an idea to look further. If anyone can find the original story links to these cases, all the better. This is just a smattering; does anyone have examples of others?:

http://matrix.bangkokpost.co.th/forums/thr...p?Thread_ID=405

Sherry Anne Duncan Case http://www.geocities.com/changnoi2/cases.htm

Hangthon investigation

Kirsty Jones http://www.thailandqa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9287

Vanessa Arscott and Adam Lloyd http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3640188.stm

[kat]

"They are rightly ignored by mainstream Thais."

It would also be wise to research exactly what the mainstream Thai outlook would entail when it comes to perceptions of justice. You could research the "mainstream Thai" outlook on the extra judicial drug killings under Thaksin, among other things. You could also research:

http://www.bangkokpost.net/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=114443

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/08/15...on_30045063.php

http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2003...burmese_dvb.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa36...311/ai_n9325066

http://hrw.org/englishwr2k7/docs/2007/01/11/thaila14839.htm

[Arkady]

You cannot have it both ways: Stating that the deceased and injured subjects have been smeared and yet engaging in the same conduct of those that you have previously accused. Have a look at your biased rhetoric;

1.The policeman pulled out a gun while off duty, out of uniform and drunk when it is highly unlikely that there was any possible threat to his life or any one else's, even if he was in fact hit by Reisig.

2. There is no information about trajectory of the shots.

I would assume that at that point he was definitely trying to kill both of them,

3.fired with intent to kill and he left the scene believing that both victims were dead and not in a position to dispute whatever story he would come up with.

1. How do you know he was drunk? Do you have access to his blood alcohol levels or the results of a sobriety exam? One can no more state as fact that the police man was drunk, than one can say the deceased and injured were either doped up or drunk. Until one has definitive evidence it is wrong to label any party as drunk.

You state the policeman had no likely threat. How can any judgement be rendered when the investigation is not complete? The injured female has stated that the deceased had physical contact with the police officer. Unfortunately, this can be grounds for a police officer to discharge a weapon. One will not know for sure if the justification was there, until the investigation is complete, but the threshold test was met.

2. First you acknowledge there is no knowledge of the trajectory (or the discharge distance for that matter) but then you make an assumption of the intent. Just as you claim to want justice for the deceased and injured, you too have an obligation to ensure justice is allowed for the accused. Fortunately, the law does not convict on the basis of assumptions alone but on credible, demonstrable evidence, of which none has been assembled that meets the conviction requirements.

3. How can you again make such an unsubstantiated wild statement indicating that you are aware of what the police officer was thinking? You can't prove in any way that the policeman believed the subjects were both dead. If anything, the extent of the female's wounds would have left her in an painful state and she'd have been thrashing about. Had the officer gone up and fired off a couple rounds into the craniums, yes I could see your point. However, there is no evidence whatsoever to show that he believed that both were dead.

Making outlandish claims or statements as to what the policeman's was thinking puts you on the same footing of those that would claim the subjects "got what they deserved" or other insensitive assertions. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. We have a duty not to rush to hasty conclusions and to convict without a clear showing of all material facts. As it is unlikely the full evidence will be made public until the court dates we will not have a definitive answer. Painful for those that want their answers now, but cases like this take time to resolve.

I am saying what I surmise might have happened in the light of latest evidence from the Canadian coroner. This is patchy but we will probably not get any more meaningful details of the forensic evidence. Yes, the suspect's drunkeness is not proven and in fact compelling evidence will almost certainly be produced in court to prove that he was stone cold sober and had just arrived from his shift defending the nation against dangerous smugglers in a remote corner of the district. The witnesses who have said that they saw him drinking all night in Pai before the killing will certainly not testify in court. I don't really mind whether you think this is wild deduction or unfair to the suspect because, whatever actually happened, the system is functioning efficiently to ensure that he will not be punished in any way. I would love to share your confidence that the full evidence will be made public in court and will comprise a clear showing of all material facts.

[kat]

More "paranoia" on the unsolved murder of Kirsty Jones:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journa...,398076,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/mid_/4580492.stm

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.php?id=1233

[Arkady]

Rather than speculate about whether the individuals involved in this tragic incident were under the influence of drugs or alcohol, I would rather wait for the toxicology reports to come in. In Unthai's case, this will definitely have a bearing on how the prosecution will proceed. And for those skeptics out there that claim that the toxicology results will be fudged, I'm not convinced. Saving one lowly cop's ass from prison is not worth the shitstorm that would be created if the toxicology report is found to be cooked.

This is how it should be. There will definitely be a toxicology report on Del Pinto and there might be one on Reisig from the Chiang Mai hospital, although it would have taken some time for her to get from Pai to Chiang Mai and, since she was near death with a bullet in the lung, checking her blood alcohol and drug levels may not have been the first priority of the emergency room staff who obviously did a great job to save her life. I am not sure that Thai hospitals have fixed procedures on these matters or, if they have, they may not bother to follow them strictly. As for Uthai, he fled the scene and gave himself up some time later. The reports don't say how long this took but I doubt that he turned himself in bright and early the next morning and was immediately sent to have blood drawn for toxicology reports. It will probably not be necessary to cook the report in his case. You are very knowledgable but I think you still see it all from a US perspective. I would also not agree that he is a lowly cop in the context of Pai or that the police would not consider it worth saving his ass from prison. As a Senior Sgt-Maj, the highest non-commissioned rank, who had been at the Pai station for a number of years, he would have detailed knowledge of nearly all the criminal activities that are going on under the nose of the police station and may also have non-police protection from local influential figures he might have moonlighted for. Remember the lowly Pol. Sgt. Somchai in Kanchanaburi who was sheltered for months by influential figures while on the run and after he reappeared the provincial police establishment closed ranks to support him?

[keyman]

I said it before, he's not going to be punished at all, not even a transfer. The only thing that can be done is the Canadian government using pressure to get results but they are too weak and timid... makes me ashamed.

Get over it. No western government is going to rock the boat over this incident, or any similar tourist incident in places like Koh Phangan, Bali, Goa, ....the list goes on. The people involved were young tourists and not part of the business community. There are enough unknowns, and unknowables, that government pressure is just not going to happen. The story might make for sensationalist speculation on this forum ad naseum, and some journalists might jump on board to sell a few articles to the international press, but government pressure is simply not now, nor will it ever be, in the cards here.

According to Canadian news though, Canada government has sent people to Pai to talk to police, has visited the young lady in hospital and help her do communication with family, has talk their police with Thai police (but no request from Thai side to help), and sent angry letter from Minister to Thai govt demanding "thorough, transparent and timely investigation be conducted into the shooting," What should we ask Canada government to do now for more action?

[DamianMavis]

Barry Barry Barry.... what are we going to do with you hmm?! There are more police shootings of falangs than you think, and you really need to ask Thai people what they think of police... I do and not one has ever said anything nice if they said anything at all. I dont know what you keep basing your opinions on but they arent based in reality. I also feel its pretty tactless of you to talk to Danielle like that when you haven been actively working against her interests.

Damian

[Arkady]

Barry Barry Barry.... what are we going to do with you hmm?! There are more police shootings of falangs than you think, and you really need to ask Thai people what they think of police... I do and not one has ever said anything nice if they said anything at all. I dont know what you keep basing your opinions on but they arent based in reality. I also feel its pretty tactless of you to talk to Danielle like that when you haven been actively working against her interests.

Damian

More to the point is that there are a large number of police shootings of Thais, illegal Burmese immigrants and stateless hill tribe people, many of which are never reported, not to mention disappearances. There are established procedures for processing these cases, some elements of which we may be seeing in action in this case. Not all of these procedures would be considered orthodox in the West.

[sabaijai]

Not particularly connected to the case but I was interested in what Bulmerke (post 1172 I think) about the male victims eyes - very true. Unfortunately I can't say the same about Reisig... sorry but I see something else there...

Yes, she does look a bit 'hard' doesn't she.

As I said before though, dealing with drunks is a big part of a cop's job description. At the point he gained control of the gun this tiny man could have simply run away and called for backup instead of shooting. So many people in history killed over ego.

Or fear.

[TAWP]

Both cases make him unsuitable to be a police officer.

[sabaijai]

You cannot have it both ways: Stating that the deceased and injured subjects have been smeared and yet engaging in the same conduct of those that you have previously accused.

My thoughts exactly.

[sabaijai]

Both cases make him unsuitable to be a police officer.

Agreed, and not a single person in this thread is disputing that, as far as I can tell.

[TAWP]

But I'm very much disputing that his second (and without a doubt not the third) shot was due to fear.

[sabaijai]

Both victims were shot ruthlessly and unmercifully in the chest -

He wanted them to die - this was a calculated shooting -

Care to cite your source(s) for this information?

Can you please state, once and for all, your self-interest in the opposing view point?

Opposed to what? My self interest is in learning the truth. And yours?

I want to know the truth - but the Thai police officer's story just doesn't cut it.

Neither does Reisig's. Uthai's account, so far, runs closer to that stated by independent witnesses. Not so for Reisig's. Obviously both have something to gain from presenting the events as they have. But it's too early to draw conclusions.

It may well turn out that the charges are downgraded to manslaughter and criminal negligence...whatever. He did it.

No one's disputing that. No one I know thinks Uthai should get off scot-free.

You, on the other hand, seem to be a chronic apologist for the actions of a drunken off-duty cop, with a history of firing his gun whilst drunk, and who pumped three shots into two unarmed toursits. Fight or no fight, insults or no insults, - so what?

Is your main message "dear backpackers and others, don't cancel your holiday plans for northern Thailand?"

Tourism will best be served by transparency and justice. And tourists themselves will be best served by having all the facts of the case, and understanding what risks an assault on police officers (I'm referring to the previous occasion, undisputed by anyone, including Reisig herself) might entail in Thai society, rightly or wrongly.

If I were to pull a message out from this, it would be 'be careful; avoid insulting and/or assaulting the police, and avoid fighting in public'. Such behaviour does not deserve bullets, but it's obvious that in Thailand the risk is there (more for Thais than for foreigners, in fact). To deny that potential risk, and to behave as if you're in a country where law enforcement personnel are well recruited and well trained, is irresponsible.

The more the facts are aired and discussed - especially among the Thais themselves - the more chance there is that the system will gradually change for the better. When speaking about this case, I've overheard several Thais expressing their disgust for the alleged crime, and expressing shock that an off-duty police officer would be carrying a weapon at all.

So what's your message? 'Please stay away from Thailand, you'll be shot at by drunk cops?' Or 'Do whatever you want, and if you get shot, we'll rally behind you with lots of indignant posts on ThaiVisa.com!'