Feminism

[Pudgimelon]

Before you reply to this topic, please state your age. I have a theory that opinions about the good/evilness of feminism are largely influenced by generation and I'd like to see if that's the case on this forum.

There seems to be a very vocal group of people on this forum who have very negative opinions about feminism.

According to dictionary.com, feminism is:

1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.

2. The movement organized around this belief.

That doesn't seem like such a horrible thing to me. In fact, it seems like common sense that individuals should be treated equally in legal, social, political, and economic terms, irregardless of gender.

But perhaps the word "feminism" is a bad way to describe this belief, since it kind of connotes a "role-reversal" from generations of patriarchy to a new matriarchy social model. But as you can see from the definition, that is NOT what feminism SHOULD be about.

There are definitely men AND women who see it in those terms. And I would have to go on record here and state that I am NOT in favor of any situation where men are reverse-discriminated against in the name of female empowerment. Anti-male laws would, in fact, be anti-feminist laws, since they perpetuate a system of gender-based bias.

Perhaps "Genderism" would be a better word to describe a belief that the genders should be equal. I don't consider myself a feminist in the way it's currently being applied in Western countries. I just can't get behind any notion that treats me poorly simply because some people's male ancesters were royal bastards to the women in their lives.

But I definitely would consider myself a "Genderist", since the notion of gender equality seems like a win-win situation to me.

Oh, and by the way, before the whiners get on here and complain about "why is this topic in a forum about Thailand", I'd like to point out a few things:

a) This is a GENERAL TOPIC forum. Hence the existence of the occassional general topic.

There seems to be a lot of bitter, anti-female posters on these forums, and they have no qualms about making their opinions known at every opportunity. This is a rebuttal of opinions stated in this forum, and therefore belongs in this forum.

c) There's a good number of bitter, anti-female divorcees in Thailand. Many come under the mistaken belief that they can find a more "womanly" woman here. Therefore, this is, in a sense, a Thai-related topic, since many men would say that feminism drove them out of their home countries.

d) These same men, who are seeking more "womanly" women here, base their definition of "womanly" on out-dated WESTERN generational notions. They are often quite disappointed (after a while) to discover that Thai women are not really "more womanly women" in the Western sense of the word. They are in fact, "womanly" in a Thai way, which is not the same thing. This often leads many men to be disillusioned when their Thai girlfriend/wife doesn't act like a 1950's housewife.

So there are lots of good reasons to have this discussion on this board. So let's get to it!

[Axel]

Pudgimelon, you got me on the wrong foot!

First time I heard about feminism, I thought it is another version of sex, you know, something different from hetero, homo, bi or sleep.

Sorry, no need to post my age, I pass on to Yohan in Tokyo, who is an expert for feminism, agressive or sub.

[meom]

Sorry, not my hang-up.

[meemiathai]

Dr Yohan is on his way!

[RDN]

Dr Yohan is on his way!

I don't think Yohan will be coming to the party...

[Pudgimelon]

Given the anti-feminist tone of a lot of posts I've read on this forum, I thought there would be more people willing to state their actual opinions on the topic.

But it seems that most of those posters don't want to take an obviously wrong position, so they'd rather just conceal sarcastic pot-shots in their other posts.

[Girlfrombar]

*y a w n********

i myself am female

yet i hate this word 'feminism'

when Eve met Adam, 'feminism' would be kept somewhere inside the drawer

and what 'female' dog would think about her 'male' mate who always just only wanna doggystyle her(?)

what if 'female' pollen anti-mix with 'male' pollen

" รักสงบ"

รักสงบ จงลืมซึ่ง "ตัวกู"

และลืมทั้ง "ตัวสู" อย่างเต็มที่

มีสติ ปัญญา และปรานี

หน้าที่ใคร ทำให้ดี เท่านี้เอย ....

--ท่าน พุทธทาส ภิกขุ

[Axel]

Sounds interesting, surprised Yohan did not come to the rescue.

Sent him a PM, this is his field of expertise.

[Boon Mee]

Thank Buddha I've never met a Feminazi in LOS or I might do a Pattaya balcony number...

[Ijustwannateach]

I like the Gloria Steinem bit about feminism being promoting the right of women to stop being "female impersonators" doing and being what men expect them to- playing the "role" of a woman.

Now, if only we could get men to stop being "male impersonators," as too many are- macho, homophobic, arrogant, swaggering, insensitive, repressed, etc., etc....

"Steven"

[Peabo]

In Thailand, feminism has nothing to do with men's problems or opinions of women. Read the book; "Money Number One!"

[medicinebox]

Before you reply to this topic, please state your age.  I have a theory that opinions about the good/evilness of feminism are largely influenced by generation and I'd like to see if that's the case on this forum.

There seems to be a very vocal group of people on this forum who have very negative opinions about feminism.

According to dictionary.com,  feminism is:

   1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.

   2. The movement organized around this belief.

That doesn't seem like such a horrible thing to me.  In fact, it seems like common sense that individuals should be treated equally in legal, social, political, and economic terms, irregardless of gender.

But perhaps the word "feminism" is a bad way to describe this belief, since it kind of connotes a "role-reversal" from generations of patriarchy to a new matriarchy social model.  But as you can see from the definition, that is NOT what feminism SHOULD be about.

There are definitely men AND women who see it in those terms.  And I would have to go on record here and state that I am NOT in favor of any situation where men are reverse-discriminated against in the name of female empowerment.  Anti-male laws would, in fact, be anti-feminist laws, since they perpetuate a system of gender-based bias.

Perhaps "Genderism" would be a better word to describe a belief that the genders should be equal.  I don't consider myself a feminist in the way it's currently being applied in Western countries.  I just can't get behind any notion that treats me poorly simply because some people's male ancesters were royal bastards to the women in their lives.

But I definitely would consider myself a "Genderist", since the notion of gender equality seems like a win-win situation to me.

Oh, and by the way, before the whiners get on here and complain about "why is this topic in a forum about Thailand", I'd like to point out a few things:

a)  This is a GENERAL TOPIC forum.  Hence the existence of the occassional general topic.

  There seems to be a lot of bitter, anti-female posters on these forums, and they have no qualms about making their opinions known at every opportunity.  This is a rebuttal of opinions stated in this forum, and therefore belongs in this forum.

c)  There's a good number of bitter, anti-female divorcees in Thailand.  Many come under the mistaken belief that they can find a more "womanly" woman here.  Therefore, this is, in a sense, a Thai-related topic, since many men would say that feminism drove them out of their home countries.

d) These same men, who are seeking more "womanly" women here, base their definition of "womanly" on out-dated WESTERN generational notions.  They are often quite disappointed (after a while) to discover that Thai women are not really "more womanly women" in the Western sense of the word.  They are in fact, "womanly" in a Thai way, which is not the same thing.  This often leads many men to be disillusioned when their Thai girlfriend/wife doesn't act like a 1950's housewife.

So there are lots of good reasons to have this discussion on this board.  So let's get to it!

My age is 33.5

I am in the UK.

I am what you may call old fashioned. I see my mothers generation and I see todays generation, and that gives me a clear picture of the degenaration.

When my Mother was married, she was a house wife. She looked after 3 children. She cooked, cleaned, shopped, washed etc etc etc.

My Father worked his balls off, brought the money home, drank beer and give us a clip if we ever misbehaved. Believe me I use the word clip lightly. But he was there as a strong father figure. And woe betide us if we stepped out of line. We all had tasks to do on a rota basis. I would shovel coal from the coalhouse outside in the winter snow at age 8, then carry it back to the house, where my brother would be making kindle for the coal fire. We had dozens of chores to do.

Now you can come back at me with all your fancy phrases and ideas, but I am telling you the facts of today.

Girls start to go out drinking at age 13-15. They are all getting shagged off older blokes some get pregnant, some get a dose, others just keep on going out. These are the children who were created by children. They have no father figure, no one to keep them in line and no one to answer to. Mother dosen't care because Mother has just woke up in someone elses bed for the 3rd time that week, so she dosen't even know where her daughter is.

If mother has boys, no doubt they will be into drugs or crime, because she never bothered much when the truancey officer called round. Besides her son would probably give her a mouthful or a bat if she said something to him. Father if he exists will probably have moved on after he found out she was sleeping about. A fastrack divorce and a nice settlement for her.

So who's fault is it. The Government, the welfare, the schools, ???

It is the man's fault. It is the mans fault for allowing women to have equal rights. Gasp, shock horror. Ok I will rephrase it. It is the man's fault for allowing them to think that they are equal in the first place.

Years ago a woman would work hard to keep a marriage together. Because the word DIVORCE would bring shame on them. Now if they have a <deleted> argument they file for divorce. Guess who is usually the one who comes out of it better off.

Once the home is broken, there is no control in it. The father figure has gone and the family unit has collapsed. No discipline, wild children, society suffers. Think what you want, but women are generally weaker than men. We used to laugh at my mum when she tried to discipline us. But as soon as she said, "right thats it, i'm telling your dad" we would turn into obediant soldiers.

I am not saying women are useless and weak etc, they just have different qualities, and should accept that. They can take care of a home better than a man, they can give an infant more love than a man. They are better at shopping and cooking on a domestic level than a man. Nurses, teachers, hair dressers, flower arrangers, fashion designers etc... are all acceptable jobs. But when they get married they should take care of the family.

That's why in the olden days as we say, society was far nicer. I often talk to my grandma and she is 97 now. She tells me about the days when you could leave your front door open, and how a woman wouldn't swear, or drink alcohol, answer back. Family values, falling pregnant and doing the right thing by getting married. That was back when the UK was a real society.

Yeah, times move on, soap opera's brain wash women and men alike and portray how women should yell at men and sleep about. Papers telling about steamy affairs and raunchy nights out. But it don't make it right.

Men have shagged about for 1000's of years, now women are at it as well, justifying if man can we can. And they do. When two are at it, divorce or breakup shortly follow. A woman used to accept a man having a bit on the side, as long as he looks after his family and comes home every night. Women don't try to understand it, you don't have a pair of balls.

Maybe us men should start staying in and iron their skirts so they can go out drinking and shagging. Yeah, if we play their role it ought to work. Won't it?

There Pudg, I've given you a huge bone to tear apart. Don't matter to me, I know how it is, and I see where its going.

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened.

--Sir Winston Churchill

[sleir]

tend to agree with you pudgi, that it is quite a generation based thing.

i am 21 years young, seen a bit of the world myself, and tend to view both radical feminists and anti-feminists as a relic of a time when the conflict was both actual and very much needed in our western world.

the chance of meeting a radical feminist of my age is quite small i'd say. and despite the fact that we like to tell sexist jokes, preferably in the presence of female friends (no fun without a reaction ) we're far from being sexists. the generations before me had to fight for the rights we now possess and regard as very normal. and that generation fails to convince us of the necessity of keeping that conflict alive. Of course we still have some remaining issues, state and social laws which favor either male or female, but time will slowly change that with the fading of the older generation. that's what i'm convinced of. sure, some divorce laws and in general education may be in favor of the prettier sex, but hey, i wouldn't want to miss the freedom i enjoy as a man, being able to go everywhere i want, being accepted as the better driver no matter how many accidents i have, getting pissed without the fear of having some ugly females jumping on me.

sorry for my bad english, but these were my 2 cents

sleir

[Darknight]

booring topic, very booooorrriiiing

Leave the feminists in europe and the US !!!!

[sleir]

Hm... i find it quite hard to accept your arguments medicinebox.

I do know a lot of families where the father has a lot less authority in the family than the mother. in a subtle way of course... for these families seem oldfashioned, as are still many many middle class environments. it's something about integrity.

let me try to explain, it's not an easy thought and i never tried to articulate it, even in swiss-german, my mother language.

many or most fathers, whatever you prefer, go to work, go out for a beer at night or spend the night at the tellie, expecting a nice treatment at home for they are tired of work. despite the fact that some mums work as well i hardly know a home where the man cares about the household. most of the times a father doesn't exactly know about the real problems of his kids, what marks they got in the last tests, when their summer camp will be. all they do is ask at dinner how the day has been, expecting a pleasant answer, otherwise he'll get angry. that's the continental european reality i see.

kids may have respect of the father, because he may be more strict, worse in his anger and penalties.

so everyone tries to keep him in his opinion that everything is ok at his home, his only pride and what he works so hard for, as he often mentions.

i am not sure if there are many families where kids tell their secrets, their problems to their dads or where it is dad of who, they get more love from.

i grew up in one of these families, we did respect him, fear him maybe, but

in a right matter ? he didn't know much, he didn't want to know, he was quick in his judgement.

kids notice when they get treated unfair, and my mum was much more sensible, knew what was the real problem, and after father was gone she settled it in the right way, but never in his presence, cause he was chief of the house.

in a "right" way we respected mother much more, in a "right" way she was much stronger. senseless discipline, strenght out of anger and rage, quick judgement are no qualities any kid needs to be taught.

so i think we don't need these old figures, these strong men and fathers anymore.

for few of them actually have the natural authority and wisdom to be a good, yet strong father. and who'd admit that ? as long as society expects you to be that way you'll mess up your familiy, create a broken home, like there are so many out there.

let me tell you something, most of the youth suicides we have here aren't because of a maniac mum... very few are indeed.

familiy, root of so many problems that haunt people thru all their life if they're unlucky. most sons of these fathers will unfortunately raise their kids exactly the same way, idolizing their father after his death, creating more ######ed up kids.

really... i am convinced the world has no more need of false pride, of so-called strong men (neither women) who are only called so out of fearful respect.

hope my post made some sense, sorry again for my bad english.

thou shalt not give your 2 cents without speaking proper english

[Boo]

As a woman I think sleirs views are about spot on for my generation. All the views expressed about feminists from older men usually refer to the fighting days of the 60's & 70's when women & some men were fighting hard for laws to be changed & rights to be upheld for women (pretty much the same idea as the civil rights movement, equal pay for equal work, the right to live without predjudice etc etc) They were necessary battles & people got caught in the cross fire but the feminists & women of the 60's & 70's bear little or no resemblence to the modern women of today, pretty much the same way that the feminists of the 60's or 70's didn't resembled the suffragettes of the earlier generations.

I laugh at sexist jokes & am not offended by them, I make some about men myself, I am a wife, hope to be a mother some day soon, have a good career & earn more than my husband. I cook & so does he & we try to share the household chores as equally as possible, he is a strong man with strong views, I defer to him but he also defers to me too. Some of the laws in the west ARE laughable & sometimes the few militant types take it too far, but like a kid thats playing up, ignoring them ensures that they shut up pretty fast & thats what happening to most of these types & their crazy ideas.

I don't want any more rights than the next person but I expect to have the same & if I know I'm not getting them, then I fight until I do, does that make me a feminist, I really don't care if it does, to me thats human & hopefully one day everyone can have the same right all over the world.