Dowry In Rural Issan

[Irish]

In Thailand the dowry is not a purchase situation - how much for your daughter - altho go to a poor enough family... For most Thais it is a show of wealth from a particular suiter. It is a show that he can take care of the daughter. It is also peace of mind for the father and shows a willing to help the daughter's family which is deep rooted in Thai culture.

This was how it was explained to me once upon a time. You are not buying your bride it is to show that you can take care of the daughter. Being Irish a dowry is not an alien concept. It was practised in rural Ireland circa 18-1900's... Only it was t'other way around and the bride brought the spré (dowry) to the groom's family.

[MISTERBONK]

In Thailand the dowry is not a purchase situation - how much for your daughter - altho go to a poor enough family... For most Thais it is a show of wealth from a particular suiter. It is a show that he can take care of the daughter. It is also peace of mind for the father and shows a willing to help the daughter's family which is deep rooted in Thai culture.

This was how it was explained to me once upon a time. You are not buying your bride it is to show that you can take care of the daughter. Being Irish a dowry is not an alien concept. It was practised in rural Ireland circa 18-1900's... Only it was t'other way around and the bride brought the spré (dowry) to the groom's family.

How the <deleted> can he take care of the daughter adequately, when all his money has been taken by the the family, and he is left with huge debts..

Don't believe me? This is exactly what happens in Thai villages!

[MJP]

When me and the wife got married . . . I paid a big round number!

0

The wedding came to 20 . . . Baht

We had been together 4 years and both of us are tight as hel_l when it comes to spending on 'unecessary' outgoings.

Anything beyond, houses, the farms, food, transport, clothing, school fees, utility bills, just doesn't get a look in. In fact nearly all spending is investment grade. We both know it brings stability and thus happiness.

For our wedding present we bought ourselves a set of matching plates and mugs (rustic looking stuff) for 150 Baht at Phontong market.

Edited May 16, 2008 by MJP

[MISTERBONK]

When me and the wife got married . . . I paid a big round number!

0

The wedding came to 20 . . . Baht

We had been together 4 years and both of us are tight as hel_l when it comes to spending on 'unecessary' outgoings.

Anything beyond, houses, the farms, food, transport, clothing, school fees, utility bills, just doesn't get a look in. In fact nearly all spending is investment grade. We both know it brings stability and thus happiness.

For our wedding present we bought ourselves a set of matching plates and mugs (rustic looking stuff) for 150 Baht at Phontong market.

Absolutely correct - that's the way to go.

If a newly married couple (Thai or farang) don't have enough money going forward, there will be instability followed by discontentment, unhappiness and finally separation. There is enough to contend with, without starting married life heavily in debt.

[Dave the Dude]

Thoroughly agree with MJP & MrBonk. I did same and all my money went to build house (on land given by Maa) & small business which THE WHOLE family benifit from including us two. I respect Thai traditions but (un)fortunetly have been brought up in UK to NOT spend what I hav'nt got and to also not worry about what others think of you.

I paid a huge amount for a wonderful 'House party' with over 600 guests and looked upon that as an investment for our future/my intergration with friends&family and after 2 years, I still believe I made the right choices. My 'investment' has been recipricated many,many times since in invitations to hundreds of happy occasions/parties. We only did the paperwork marriage at the Amphur, just as I did a Registory Office one in the UK in a previous life. I suppose its the tight@rse ex-Bankmanager in me coming out , but HayHo< Im happy

Dave

BTW to MJP, it sound like you will get on fine on this forum>

[corkman]

Haven't read this entire post - but I'll jsut add by bit, for the sake of it.

I told my wife (we are married comming up 6yrs) that I was not paying anything to anyone - if she wanted to marry me, then marry me, if not - well it wasn't going to happen. I explained to her that in my view, marriage meant the coming together of two people and two families, and in our case, two cultures. As much as I would have to learn to live with certain elements of her culture she would have to learn to live with mine - we were both going to have to make serious allowances if we are to be as equals - not supressing each others.

To that end, I explained that the idea of "paying" to marry her is offensive to me, my family, and my culture. I explained how it is Taboo, and that it is simply not going to happen. Similarly, I explained that I had no intention of paying a disproportionately large contribution to her parents every month. For example, if her brother pays a 1000 baht a month - I would pay a 1000 baht a month. I put it this way, if I were very poor, and had no money, would it be acceptable to take 10baht a month..... which would be ridiculous - so because I am "rich" why whould I be nailed for it. So, I either pay a 1000 baht a month, like everyone else, OR if she lets me save face I will pay alot more, but on my terms, no theirs. So, the long and short of it is this - I did not pay anything to her parents, and I do not pay a monthly contribution, but I do give generously to the family, and this is something that I explained and agreed to at the time. I contribute more in a year than all the other 5 brothers and sisters do - more than double actually. I buy them things like tractors - I paid for a new roof on the house recently - I built them a boundardy wall last year..... I;ve lost count of the number of deposits I have on motorbikes - or outright bought - that sort of thing.... it adds up - probably to alot more than any monthly payment would - but it rests easier on my shoulders, I am more comforatble with it and I am happy with it, and it hammers home on a continuous basis that I AM FARANGE and I HAVE A CULTURE TOO........ Lets face it, I am an engineer on a slgihtly above average engineers salary - if my wife had married a thai engineer and took a 300k Baht dowry, then that dowry would have since been long gone, and the fmaily wouldn't be seeing much of his 20,000baht a month salary.... I earn in a day what these guys do in a week - and while the thai family are only getting a small slice of a big pie, that small slice is still alot more pie, in terms of how much wealth they ultimately receive. So all in, they have got a pretty good deal - the problem is, as I see it, that alot of thai fmailies want to have their cake AND eat it.... and Farangs are too easy to just accept it. I say accept it on thai terms, and after that be ruthless with money - or accept it on your own terms, and later be generous in different ways. allow me to make an anology - "a puppy is for life, not just for xmas".... similarly "a farang is for life, not just for a dowry" - impress that point home - your wealth will continuouisly support the family on an ongoing basis - if they wish to enjoy this wealth on an ongoing basis, they have to accept it will not always be done their way.

A funny twist to all this is that the tradition in Ireland (all be it a long dead tradition) is that the woman brings a Dowry into the marriage, and that her farther pays for the wedding..... the lot. How would they feel if I imposed my tradition on them?

Our wedding was a simple affair - it was billed as a THAI-FARANG wedding - everyone was told it would be different - everyone was told that my point of view and my culture was different from Thai culture, and that I was more than happy to meet them more than half way. A problem I find / think about the Farang in Isaan or where ever is that they too easily and readily give up their cultural identity in an effort to fit it - in doing so they show weakness and quite often fail to fit in 100%. Then once in a while Mr. Farang decides to put his opinion forward, from which point onward he is ridiculed at every opertunity "people are not supposed to do like that" and all that malarkey. I make it a point to correct them, and say "THAI PEOPLE are not supposed to do like that" - and point out if they want me to be a "THAI MAN" then (a) they better start treating me with an equal amount of respect and (b.) once I am then a respected that man I will then conduct my financial affairs as a Thai man would. In essence, I make every effort to fit into the Thai social scene, and try my best to do things their way - when in rome do as the romans and all that - but I will never be truly Thai, I will never be fully accepted as a true Thai person - and I point blank refuse to be gauged by two measuring sticks.

My wife and I have a very good relationship when it comes to cultural integration - there are certain things that are "engraved on our souls" as it were, and to try and remove it would be both soul destroying and wrong - for either of us. Some things can be compromised on, others cannot. Anyone in the village can see my wifes family are doing well for themselves, couple of brand new bikes parked out front, brand new tractor, nice house, getting more and more land year in year out...... they have saved face and so have I - an acceptable compromise has been reached. Other things there is no compromise - I just accept some things of hers, and she just accepts things of mine.

THats my thoughts and experience on the matter. Just remember, the benchmark you set now is that which you will be judged against forwever - start off as you mean to go on - sit down, with just her, or her fmaily if need be, and explain your thoughts and your proposals, and agree to something that you are happy with - and remember that you are going to have to live with it for a long time.......

Hope that helps some.....

As an addendum - recently, my brother-in-law got married. We gave him 50,000 Baht towards what he paid to his new wifes family. In pricniple, I do not have a problem with the whole concept - its works fine - far be it for me to judge a cultural practice - I am not qualified to do so....... it is just not MY culture, and I personally would not subscribe to it.

Edited May 16, 2008 by corkman

[rick75]

So let me get this right Corkman, you don't pay a little money on there terms, but you pay a crap load on "your" terms I am sure the family is terribly upset with you, good on you for standing up for yourself.

Edited May 16, 2008 by rick75

[Sapillyder]

A most interesting and informative thread, but without wishing to be pedantic, it's not a dowry we're talking about here, it's a "Bride Price".

A dowry is paid by the Bride's family to the groom. For further explanation of the tradition see...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_price

[jaede]

It is not a "paying" issue, it is not a buying a wife issue.

For most modern Thai/Thai weddings I know of, the dowry is still there, as part of tradition (which I view as a gesture of gratitude to the bride's parents). However, in most of these situations, the couple is from similar socio-economic backgrounds, and neither party (bride's parents or groom's parents) want to keep the money; rather, they give it to the couple to help them in their new family.

Even so called Thai 'Supstars" pay obscene amounts of money and gold as a sinsod.... so not just the low classes.

[corkman]

So let me get this right Corkman, you don't pay a little money on there terms, but you pay a crap load on "your" terms I am sure the family is terribly upset with you, good on you for standing up for yourself.

I supposed I came off that way alright - but in real terms, my understanding is that a typical "payment" which most subscribe to on a monthly basis is about 5,000 - 10,000 baht......... which is madness in my view, but hey....... that amounts to anywhere from 60,000 baht a year. And most of these guys get the "sick buffaloe" routine...... When I add it up in my head properly, I suppose I personally contribute about 50,000baht a year - max - including the "going home" money.

But to me, its not about the actual amount, but rather the demanding attitude that would get to me - I'm just stubborn - but if its put to me "you MUST pay x this month, and every month" - well I just don't like being told what to do. I much prefer the idea that I give what I can, when I can - I don't see it as a duty but rather a pleasure to help. In fairness to my wife, she is part of a partnership called marriage - if we propser (as in my wife and I) then of course she would like to bring her family up with her - I know I would - I know if I won the lottery or suddenly became a millionaire that I would help out my close family, and treat them to things, and try to make their life easier - in what ever way I can. So why shoudl it be any different going in the Thai direction - a knife cuts both ways as far as I'm concerned.

But I do things on my terms my terms. When you go to the bank for a loan, you do it on their terms. When you go to work, you do it on their terms. When you want or need something, typically you do it on other peoples terms. Conversely, if people want things from me, I do it on mine. There are lots of Farangs out there that really are taunted as "bufallo" behind their back - without ever knowing..... maybe I am one two, I dunno. But I am not trying to upset anyone, or stamp my authority, or be a hard man standing up or whatever - my motives for wanting to do things my own way are to make my Thai family "terribly upset" with me - what would the point in that be? The point that I have sucessfully made with my Thai family is that I AM NOT THAI. I do not have to do things "because it is the Thai Way". My wife doesn't give half her wages to my mother does she? Its is a case, in most cases, of hunting with the hound and running with the fox. Farang money - Thai culture...... I am afraid for me, I am not willing to give up who I am, what I stand for, what my parents worked so hard to teach me - that is me, who I am, and what I am....... part of that "upbrigning" was to recognise the need for compromise and fairness - what I have, I feel, is a fair compromise between helping out without breaking my own back, doing my bit which keeps my wife happy, and saving face by not lying down and taking it - appearing as a "golden goose".

[egg6447]

ive just come to the conclution that all the sinsot threads are in/on issan foram. why is that. hey corkman i do understand where your comeing from. you should be a novalist.

[blueandbrown]

I'm starting to feel guilty, I paid nothing to marry my wife (of 6years now) she loves me for who I am, not how much money I can give her family. They have not asked for a baht in the 8 years I've known her.

I'd be flamed by saying this, but you marry for love right? What the hel_l has money got to do with it?

Sure you would want to be financially stable, but it's both your future to look to, in my opinion, families that want money from a prospective husband for their siblings, are just out right con artists.

To the OP, depending on the family, you should not have to pay, they should want to see their daughter happy, with or without money.

I might be late replying to this but i agree I have never paid anything to marry my wife and was never asked to! all they wanted is that i take care of her forever and this i am doing. she is a diamond to me and i am honoured to have her for my wife. good luck to you and your wife.

[raybingham]

So let me get this right Corkman, you don't pay a little money on there terms, but you pay a crap load on "your" terms I am sure the family is terribly upset with you, good on you for standing up for yourself.

I supposed I came off that way alright - but in real terms, my understanding is that a typical "payment" which most subscribe to on a monthly basis is about 5,000 - 10,000 baht......... which is madness in my view, but hey....... that amounts to anywhere from 60,000 baht a year. And most of these guys get the "sick buffaloe" routine...... When I add it up in my head properly, I suppose I personally contribute about 50,000baht a year - max - including the "going home" money.

But to me, its not about the actual amount, but rather the demanding attitude that would get to me - I'm just stubborn - but if its put to me "you MUST pay x this month, and every month" - well I just don't like being told what to do. I much prefer the idea that I give what I can, when I can - I don't see it as a duty but rather a pleasure to help. In fairness to my wife, she is part of a partnership called marriage - if we propser (as in my wife and I) then of course she would like to bring her family up with her - I know I would - I know if I won the lottery or suddenly became a millionaire that I would help out my close family, and treat them to things, and try to make their life easier - in what ever way I can. So why shoudl it be any different going in the Thai direction - a knife cuts both ways as far as I'm concerned.

But I do things on my terms my terms. When you go to the bank for a loan, you do it on their terms. When you go to work, you do it on their terms. When you want or need something, typically you do it on other peoples terms. Conversely, if people want things from me, I do it on mine. There are lots of Farangs out there that really are taunted as "bufallo" behind their back - without ever knowing..... maybe I am one two, I dunno. But I am not trying to upset anyone, or stamp my authority, or be a hard man standing up or whatever - my motives for wanting to do things my own way are to make my Thai family "terribly upset" with me - what would the point in that be? The point that I have sucessfully made with my Thai family is that I AM NOT THAI. I do not have to do things "because it is the Thai Way". My wife doesn't give half her wages to my mother does she? Its is a case, in most cases, of hunting with the hound and running with the fox. Farang money - Thai culture...... I am afraid for me, I am not willing to give up who I am, what I stand for, what my parents worked so hard to teach me - that is me, who I am, and what I am....... part of that "upbrigning" was to recognise the need for compromise and fairness - what I have, I feel, is a fair compromise between helping out without breaking my own back, doing my bit which keeps my wife happy, and saving face by not lying down and taking it - appearing as a "golden goose".

I have to say that I agree with a lot of what Corkman says - although I think some of his comments can be viewed as having a degree of arrogance. I doubt that was the intention.

The reality is that, usually, we all do what we want to do or are prepared to do. The Thai principle of nam jai is commendable (and very rewarding when you do it for a genuine reason) - that is "giving" willingly and voluntarily. However, we should also be prepared to say "no" if we feel that it is simply a case of "Farang pays".

I believe that "we" have to give more in the compromise stakes because we have chosen to spend time in their country and the Thai culture should prevail. Equally, just because the Thais eat chicken bones doesn't make it right !

[siamesekitty]

It is not a "paying" issue, it is not a buying a wife issue.

For most modern Thai/Thai weddings I know of, the dowry is still there, as part of tradition (which I view as a gesture of gratitude to the bride's parents). However, in most of these situations, the couple is from similar socio-economic backgrounds, and neither party (bride's parents or groom's parents) want to keep the money; rather, they give it to the couple to help them in their new family.

Even so called Thai 'Supstars" pay obscene amounts of money and gold as a sinsod.... so not just the low classes.

yes, that's right.

[rick75]

Corkman I know what you are saying and agree 100%, I was taking the piss a little with my previous comment, just one question what is the deal with "going home" money, what is the idea behind that I am currently being subjected to this and can't get a reason from the TGF. Cheers

[Thaddeus]

just one question what is the deal with "going home" money, what is the idea behind that I am currently being subjected to this and can't get a reason from the TGF. Cheers

More detail required, who is going home, you or the girlfriend, or both.

[rick75]

I am going home to her village with her to meet the parents and have a look around, she says will you be prepared to give 10k baht to my parents, I say why, she says its tradition, if you are not happy to, that is Ok, but I will still have to give my parents some money it is "Thai tradition", I am not married to this girl and I have only known her intimatly for a few months, she works in Bkk, we did not meet in a bar I have not paid her for here services or given her any money thus far (apart from 4k baht for her birthday, I was to lazy to buy a present). At first I did the whole I am not an ATM machine it is important that your parents not treat me like one bla bla, but in the end think it only 10k I am not going to loose sleep over it, I am heading up there next week so I guess I will find out, but I am interested to hear what everyone thinks.

Edited May 20, 2008 by rick75

[coventry]

I am going home to her village with her to meet the parents and have a look around, she says will you be prepared to give 10k baht to my parents, I say why, she says its tradition, if you are not happy to, that is Ok, but I will still have to give my parents some money it is "Thai tradition", I am not married to this girl and I have only known her intimatly for a few months, she works in Bkk, we did not meet in a bar I have not paid her for here services or given her any money thus far (apart from 4k baht for her birthday, I was to lazy to buy a present). At first I did the whole I am not an ATM machine it is important that your parents not treat me like one bla bla, but in the end think it only 10k I am not going to loose sleep over it, I am heading up there next week so I guess I will find out, but I am interested to hear what everyone thinks.

10,000 Baht for saying hello. I'll take less. Buy them drink or food etc, that's what a Thai boyfriend would give, that's the tradition. The money is a way of your g/f to show her family that she has a rich farang.

[Thaddeus]

I am going home to her village with her to meet the parents and have a look around, she says will you be prepared to give 10k baht to my parents, I say why, she says its tradition,

First I've heard of it.

It is tradition for the guest to be made welcome with a meal, no exchange of money. Sometimes a guest may take small gifts of items from his local area that may not be available elsewhere (a Tambon thing)

If there is such a tradition of money giving in any part of Thailand, I sincerely doubt that it was started by the Thais.

//edit/coventry beat me to it.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Thaddeus

[rick75]

OK so that is what I thought, she has a friend who has a farang husband and after my asking about what is this cash for etc and getting a little pissed off she gets him to send me an email trying to clear things up, he mentions the words sin sod, so this has me a little scared he says don't worry its only tradition buddhist ceromony not western legal marriage and that because we have already been "intimate" she already thinks of me as her husband anyway. So guys this not your typical Thailand thing, I am 32 and she is actually a couple of years older than me, so from what I have told you above should alarm bells be ringing or is this just a case of go with the flow, my idea on the situation is just go with the flow but when you talk about the situation outload well I find myself wondering.

Should also add as above never given her cash apart from a small amount for her birthday. Money is never spoken about this is the first time.

Edited May 20, 2008 by rick75

[Thaddeus]

If that is the situation and they are going to welcome you into the household, make some larb and tie a load of string round your wrists while an old, probably ex-monks, chants over the pair of you, then that is fine IMO (wait for the screaming hordes chanting 'she's not a virgin, pay nothing')

This has no legal significance, but it does have a very important moral one, you are currently 'living in sin' .... this is not good in the eyes of the family, not good at all, and it is giving the rest of the village something to gossip about, villagers love gossiping about other people, but don't like it happening to themselves. Do that small celebration and the gossip stops.

Why your GF couldn't tell you that is beyond me, and it's one of the few things that still irritates me somewhat...... can't be bothered to explain - make some crap up.

[rick75]

Thadeus, thank you my friend, I look at the situation pretty much the same as you, I am not sure why they find it hard to explain things but maybe they know the words sin sod have very negative connotations to farang. Either way I will go with the flow and see where it takes me over the next couple of weeks. Cheers

[coventry]

Go with the flow Rick75 but keep your hard earned cash in you pockets. But why did the farang send you an email to clear things up, aint she capable ? You're more inclined to believe a farang so they get them to talk to you.

I get similar things happen to me where I live, in that the girl brings the new farang to the village and then tries to get me to lie to the farang. They don't want me to mention all the other boyfriends, who have given money to ma and pa, that have preceded them. Puts me in a no win situation every time.

Edited May 20, 2008 by coventry

[rick75]

Her English is not so good and my Thai is not great, I don't think there was any misleading going on as he did say if I ever have any questions off the record to email him direct and not through his partners email, the girl was met by my mate who has been traveling to Thailand for 20 odd years and his Thai business partner, they both gave her the all clear, she seems Ok and at this stage I have no reason to doubt anything she has said. As I said we did not meet through a bar, she worked at a hotel I was staying at and it took a bit of coaxing to get her to go out to dinner. I spent many hours reading horror stories on this site and definatly have my eyes open.

[MISTERBONK]

I had the "living in sin" ceremony some years ago. Knew nothing about it until it was actually happening!

It is not a marriage nor an engagement, and does not require a cash payment. A bottle of Johnnie Walker for Dad (although he would probably be happier with a couple of bottles of lao cow) and perhaps some fruits for Mum including durian should suffice. Maybe in addition just the 4 of you go out for a meal - no extended family or other hangers on!

Once you start the money thing, it doesn't stop - just gets bigger.

[corkman]

I have to say that I agree with a lot of what Corkman says - although I think some of his comments can be viewed as having a degree of arrogance. I doubt that was the intention.

Correct - its not my intention to come off as arrogant. In the flesh, I am anything but arogant (I hope!) - if its once thing that rubs me up the wrong way its arrogance - so sorry if I came off that way to anyone. I aspire to be, and hope I am viewed by my peers as a man of humility and thought - not as retentious or arrogant - so my appoliges to anyone, if I have come accross that way.

Rick75

The going home money and the ceremony etc. > honestly, I would view this whole thing in a positive light. If she is doing this, it is her way of showing commitment to you. It says to her family and peers "this is my man" and really that is a big thing to Thai's. She's not going to dump you and go up there with a different boyfriend in 6 months times…. It would mean her and her family loosing face big time. The sceptics will say that she's just grabbing a "golden" opportunity with both hands – that could be said for practically every Thai – Farang relationship. I would view this as a positive step, all round, and just go along with it.

Explain to her you don't understand, but you are interested and happy to do whatever is needed. You'll probably get the usual "don't worry" line, which basically masks the fact that she cannot explain properly - and she probably knows as much about our customs in such regards as you do about hers. Try not to get frustrated if she can't or seemingly won't explain things in detail, just offer to help, and remind her that she will have to "help" you and show you what to do – and most of all, be "happy" to go along with it. Bascially, all you will have to do is sit there and look pretty – nothing is required of you. There is no "negative" side to this whole thing, as far as I'm concern. In essence, for a Thai to bring you home and say "this is my BF" is akin to saying this is my fiancée. This whole thing is about lending legitimacy to your relationship – in her parents eyes it shows commitment on both your parts and gives them reassurance that your intentions are honourable. This in turn will make her happy, knowing that her family and parents approve.

The actual "money" – well that serves two purposes:

1. Something to remember here is that in all likelihood you are giving this money to your GF – not to her parents. This is "her" money, to spend as she sees fit, as it were. When Thai's go home, they don't like to go home empty handed. The attitude is if you are empty handed, then why did you go away to work in the first place – to return empty handed is to return in shame and defeat. They like to go how as conquerors and victors with the spoils of war to show for it. It's a positive attribute as far as I'm concern – a bit of self pride and dignity – not wanting to be, or appear to be "bums". So, she wants to go home, head high, chin up, proclaiming to all "look, I'm doing ok for myself".

2. It will be obvious, and it is intended to be obvious, that you gave her this money. This shows her family and peers that you offer financial security, and that you have the means as well as the intention to look after her – both financially and lovingly.

It is important sometime to differentiate our two cultures – and this is one of those times. In the west, the romantic notion that you should only marry for love, and as long as you love each other, then everything will be ok, and nothing else matters. In Thailand, that notion is absurd. If you have no money, then you have no food, no shelter, and so on….. it is a reality that Thai's live with, and it is something that most westerns can never fully understand, because the prospect of it happening to us is so slim. The ethic is something like "If you love someone, then you would not wish to marry them unless you can look after them. If you cannot look after them, then why would you marry them?". Money does not matter – of course there is a materialistic element to it, but there is a deeper seeded fear of poverty too. To show that you are financially strong is a requirement to Thai's, not a "bonus".

You also have to be careful not to fall into the paranoid trap. Some Farang get it into their head that they are being ripped off at every opportunity. Some are, and bigger fool them. But in this instance, you GF is being a typical girl – all girls (Thai, Western, or otherwise) like to brag about how their man is the best – at least when the relationship is young anyway…… she will take pleasure and delight and pride in giggling with her friends that you spoil her and you can give her all the things she wants. This is only natural, in my view.

The only thing I would be saying to you at this stage is that you are entering a phase where you will soon be living as "man and wife" in their eyes – whether you are married or not, and this is where the money train will start – I would say indulge her at this time, but make it absolutely clear that you must talk about money and her and how it effects her family – if you don't give direction, it will quickly fall to assumption – once it is assumed, it will be promised – once its is promised it must be given, and it is only then that you will find out about it – and to take it back is very, very difficult. Even if it upsets her, and it probably will, tell her, and make it absolutely clear that she is not to promise or discuss money to anyone, ever, without talking to you first! At the same time, try to remember she has a responsibility to her family to look after them. She will have a desire to try and share a bit of the "wealth" that your relationship affords her. Again – this is natural and perfectly normal. The tricky part for you, in the coming months will be to establish how you can facilitate your GF in this way. As per my previous post, I believe this needs to be a compromise – I believe you need to be strong and show leadership in financial matters and at the same time be fair in allowing her to indulge a little. I personally have worked hard, and succeeded in ensuring that I am not viewed as an ATM or a paycheck….. others are happy and comfortable with that – I am not. Most people in the Isaan have no idea where our money comes from – they think we just "have" it…… to you and me, 20,000 baht is not a lot of money – to them it is A LOT…… I believe I show respect to them and their culture, and my wifes family by maintaining the pretence that is a lot of money to me too….. I often wonder how arrogant and condescending it must seem to Thai men in particular to see young men such as myself throw 5,000 baht about like it was nothing when it takes them a month of hard graft to earn it………. so that if they want 10,000 baht for something I feel it is a matter of respect to show that it is not simply a matter of going to the ATM and by magic it appears – that the money does come from somewhere, that it was earned, and that it does have value. If not, what are you saying about them? I put it to you this way, if your 7yr old nephew saved up his pocket money for a year and bought you a CD and always remembers your birthday right up into adulthood, but your millionaire uncle just throws you 50 or 100 quid whenever he thinks of it – who is demonstrating more sincerity, and over the test of time who do you think you will be closer with and have more love & respect for? It is my belief that if Thai people know no respect for where your money comes from, and see no sacrifice in you giving it to them, then they will have no appreciation for it, and quickly take you and your money for granted, with a "so what, he can afford it" attitude. It takes a bit of thought, and it is important to get right, lest it become a bone of contention between you in years to come. For me, the set up is that I will give what I can, when I can…. More when I have it, less when I don't. But it always appears generous, and genuine, and hence when it is received it is appreciated, rather than squandered like the money came from the money tree in the back garden……… this works for me, my wife, and her family. It is to a certain extend patronising, I reliase this, BUT it maintains things in a way that we are all happy and no one feels hard done by, exploited, or taken for granted – so for me that little bit of behind the scenes patronisation pays us all with a hugely positive relationship.

The way I see it all is this. By Thai standards my wife is doing well for herself – rich beyond her peers wildest dreams. She naturally wants to share her wealth with her family – I know I would. I see no harm in this, and I do not want to suppress her, and prevent her from doing this – at the same time, I am not writing any blank cheques. If you married Jane Smith from Manchester, how much would you spend a year on her nieces and nephews, brothers and sisters, parents, grandparents and extended family on xmas & birthday presents etc. I personally do not spend any more than that, but my money goes so much further and does so much more good…… that is how I see it. To conclude, my Thai family does nice things for me – they seek to please me, as I do my own family, and as my family do for me…… they try and surprise me with things. For example, when they hear I'm coming to visit they plant vegetables for me for when I arrive – they know I can just go to the market and buy them, and that the money (relatively) doesn't matter – they just do it because they want to….. and these little things say to me "welcome" they say "we are glad to see you"…. Not just "oh great, excuse for a p i s s up, and payday after that"….. it's the little things that count…..

Sorry if this post seems fragmented, incoherent, or repetitive – I've typed it is sections.

Edited May 20, 2008 by corkman

[coventry]

Corkman absolutely brilliant post.

[rick75]

Corkman great post thanks for taking the time to write it, I think it is one of the best written posts on this site, in regards to showing an understanding of what is going on around Us in Thailand. I am looking forward to going up country and being exposed to the culture of Issan, I am not paranoid but I have learnt that you have to be firm at the start or you will be swimming against the current for as long as you are together, this goes for girls in the west also I might add. Thanks again

[corkman]

...I am looking forward to going up country and being exposed to the culture of Issan..... Thanks again

Your more than welcome - just remember that anything you "read" about Isaan is after all only 1 person opinions, and hence their opinions, along with my own shoud be taken with a bag, not a pinch of salt. No-one knows your situation better than yourself, and at the end of the day it is you that will have to live by your decisions. Alot of opinionated people will rant about what is right, what is not, what they would do if they were you and so on...... personally, if faced with any decisions that I felt unreasonable I have govourned my decisions and thoughts by trying to imagine myself in a visa-versa situation, and trying to maintain a bit of consistency in my comments. e.g. Your other half asks for 10,000baht for "going home money" and you throw a wobbly saying its too much, and you can't afford to be splashing money out like that - but 2 days previous you were staying in the Landmark or JW Mariott (at 8,000B per night)..... But you see some farang get the God complex here, and retort with the comment "You want me to imagine I woz her - I tell ya mate, I'd be bleedin' grateful for wot I'd got mate, if some geezer wiv got that much dosh woz lookin' pickin' up ve bill for every-fing - WOT - she's livin' in ve lap-o-luxury - got hot runnin' water and every-fing mate, and all she does is complain mate"...... so my idea of imagining how I would feel in the Mrs. position isn't for everyone - and I am not saying that is right or wrong, its just the way it is.

Spending time in Isaan - Well I love the time I spend there - it is so "different" and with the majority of people not speaking English you really have no other option than to just relax. You really do feel a world away. some of my buddies can't stand the place - they just want to get back to the Islands etc. Fine if you have the dosh - or a busniness - or whatever, but me personally, like all other things in life - I like a bit of balance..... I work hard and I party hard, so when I relax, I like to relax totally I find the palce is kind of like a detox camp for the soul ............... but jokes aside, its nice, and its different - hope you enjoy it too. Where abouts in Isaan are you heading? Is it "proper jungle" or "urban sprawl".....

Good luck, and hope everything works out - let us know how you get on.

[rick75]

Just outside Rattanaburi, Her parents are farmers, we are staying at a Guesthouse about 15 minutes away, so all in all looking forward to it immensely, I will only be up there for a few days so no doubt will be a fun time. Cheers Rick