Crackdown On Smoking At Pubs, Enteratinment Venues

[morejunk]

dannyman: What do you non-smokers think your breathing in the street's of Bangkok or ant other place in Thailand? Fresh Tuk-Tuk air!I espeacialy love when you come back, from a walk outside and blow that healthy black stuff out of your nose. Breathe On!

I conclude that the stupid point you are trying to make is that justifies cigarettes. What about burning tires or yard waste? How about piles of smelly dog sh!te on the street? Does that justify a rude inconsiderate jerk smoking cigarettes and even worse, cigars in a restaurant or a bar? My f@rts are certainly better smelling. Would you consider it acceptable if I f@rted next to you? Your argument does not make any sense. Why do you fools think smoking is a "right"? Smoking is totally disgusting habit. It is just a selfish and rude thing to do to others that don't share you rediculous addiction.

Edited January 14, 2008 by morejunk

[Prakanong]

What do you non-smokers think your breathing in the street's of Bangkok or ant other place in Thailand? Fresh Tuk-Tuk air!I espeacialy love when you come back, from a walk outside and blow that healthy black stuff out of your nose. Breathe On!

As straw men go this is piss poor - next!

[TAWP]

Why is it that that I get the feeling some people here has completely misunderstood what personal freedom means?

It's not the right to piss on the floor in a bar, it's the right to piss on he floor of your home. Or your own bar.

Which leaves the rest of your arguments in the gutter.

[mrbojangles]

I am a sinner and i smoke. Forgive me

I'm in the Uk and my view on the ban in the UK is this. It has helped me cut back enormously, as i can't be ar5ed to go outside in the freezing cold to have a ciggie. I may have one or two in a whole night. As opposed to about 10-15 before the ban. So actually, i've got used to the ban pretty quickly and i don't mind it.

However, (this isn't scientific, just my observations) talking to some landlords, they have seen a massive downturn in trade, especially mid-week. Alot of smokers are staying at home and as such alot of their non-smoking mates are doing similar as they don't have someone to have a pint with. I know this isn't the case with everyone but it is something i've noticed at my local pub and what is happening at several watering holes in my local area.

Prior to the ban, i was against it and wanted us to have the choice but now i think, well i'm cutting back and saving money. The Government will now have to start getting the Tax back some other way and non-smokers will also be coughing (sorry for the pun) up more money.

[Jockstar]

I am a sinner and i smoke. Forgive me

I'm in the Uk and my view on the ban in the UK is this. It has helped me cut back enormously, as i can't be ar5ed to go outside in the freezing cold to have a ciggie. I may have one or two in a whole night. As opposed to about 10-15 before the ban. So actually, i've got used to the ban pretty quickly and i don't mind it.

However, (this isn't scientific, just my observations) talking to some landlords, they have seen a massive downturn in trade, especially mid-week. Alot of smokers are staying at home and as such alot of their non-smoking mates are doing similar as they don't have someone to have a pint with. I know this isn't the case with everyone but it is something i've noticed at my local pub and what is happening at several watering holes in my local area.

Prior to the ban, i was against it and wanted us to have the choice but now i think, well i'm cutting back and saving money. The Government will now have to start getting the Tax back some other way and non-smokers will also be coughing (sorry for the pun) up more money.

In Scotland when th ban came in before England. The land lords were reporting takings were up.

[morejunk]

Tawp: Why is it that that I get the feeling some people here has completely misunderstood what personal freedom means?

It's not the right to piss on the floor in a bar, it's the right to piss on he floor of your home. Or your own bar.

Which leaves the rest of your arguments in the gutter.

Please explain what the difference is between pissing, f@rting and smoking in public place areas. There are all equally disgusting, except my f@rts are better smelling than your smoke and smoke satuarated body and clothes.

I like your concept on personal freedom. I will be more than happy to go to your home and piss on your floor.

Edited January 14, 2008 by morejunk

[Prakanong]

Why is it that that I get the feeling some people here has completely misunderstood what personal freedom means?

It's not the right to piss on the floor in a bar, it's the right to piss on he floor of your home. Or your own bar.

Which leaves the rest of your arguments in the gutter.

And you can smoke in your own bar or your own home too - nobody says any different.

you misunderstand what personal freedom means - what about my freedom not to smell your smoke.

not to worry its public places including outside on the street next ;-)))

[rgs2001uk]

dont know the last time you were in scotland jockstar, however the latest from there is the scottish parliament was trying to prevent supermarkets from selling cheap drink, this is because so many have now stopped going to pubs and are drinking at home/elsewhere.

another by product of this ban is that residents of houses near by are now complaining of people standing in the streets smoking and drinking and all that that entails, not to mention people waiting at bus stops etc being subjected to the flowery language.

at the end of the day its a joke, why not just go the whole hog and ban it completley in public places, or give the landlords the choice as to whether his premises are smoke free or not, that way the non smokers can choose to enter or not.

on a completley different topic, i remember years ago the laws were changed to allow women to enter public bars, i know establishments which still do not conform.

[Prakanong]

I am a sinner and i smoke. Forgive me

I'm in the Uk and my view on the ban in the UK is this. It has helped me cut back enormously, as i can't be ar5ed to go outside in the freezing cold to have a ciggie. I may have one or two in a whole night. As opposed to about 10-15 before the ban. So actually, i've got used to the ban pretty quickly and i don't mind it.

However, (this isn't scientific, just my observations) talking to some landlords, they have seen a massive downturn in trade, especially mid-week. Alot of smokers are staying at home and as such alot of their non-smoking mates are doing similar as they don't have someone to have a pint with. I know this isn't the case with everyone but it is something i've noticed at my local pub and what is happening at several watering holes in my local area.

Prior to the ban, i was against it and wanted us to have the choice but now i think, well i'm cutting back and saving money. The Government will now have to start getting the Tax back some other way and non-smokers will also be coughing (sorry for the pun) up more money.

Bingo halls are reporting takings well down too.

As for taxes - is there a definitive independent study which shows the taxes collected are more than the costs to society, ie cleaning, health etc etc?

Anyway - raise the tax on fag's first to make up the money

[Prakanong]

dont know the last time you were in scotland jockstar, however the latest from there is the scottish parliament was trying to prevent supermarkets from selling cheap drink, this is because so many have now stopped going to pubs and are drinking at home/elsewhere.

another by product of this ban is that residents of houses near by are now complaining of people standing in the streets smoking and drinking and all that that entails, not to mention people waiting at bus stops etc being subjected to the flowery language.

at the end of the day its a joke, why not just go the whole hog and ban it completley in public places, or give the landlords the choice as to whether his premises are smoke free or not, that way the non smokers can choose to enter or not.

on a completley different topic, i remember years ago the laws were changed to allow women to enter public bars, i know establishments which still do not conform.

I bet a pound to a penny not all establishments in Thailand conform to a smoking ban.

The plod might use it to extract more cash either as a regular payment or one off's from certain bar types.

They just do not care about more serious issues so this will only appear on their radar if they can screw some cash.

[jackspratt]

Why is it that that I get the feeling some people here has completely misunderstood what personal freedom means?

It's not the right to piss on the floor in a bar, it's the right to piss on he floor of your home. Or your own bar.

Or kill others while you are driving pissed?

How do you force somebody to take responsibility for that? And how does it help the dead person(s)?

[Prakanong]

Why is it that that I get the feeling some people here has completely misunderstood what personal freedom means?

It's not the right to piss on the floor in a bar, it's the right to piss on he floor of your home. Or your own bar.

Or kill others while you are driving pissed?

How do you force somebody to take responsibility for that? And how does it help the dead person(s)?

He lost the personal freedom argument when he advocated the personal freedom to drink and drive

If there was no-one on the road or crossing the road except drunk drivers then fine as long as they did not damage and did not expect emergency service help or health care - it would be Darwin in action.

Just as smokers do not give a shit about what they impose on others this guy is supporting a group of people who areresponsible for the deaths of women and children - like a cheerleader for the Taliban

[mrbojangles]

I am a sinner and i smoke. Forgive me

I'm in the Uk and my view on the ban in the UK is this. It has helped me cut back enormously, as i can't be ar5ed to go outside in the freezing cold to have a ciggie. I may have one or two in a whole night. As opposed to about 10-15 before the ban. So actually, i've got used to the ban pretty quickly and i don't mind it.

However, (this isn't scientific, just my observations) talking to some landlords, they have seen a massive downturn in trade, especially mid-week. Alot of smokers are staying at home and as such alot of their non-smoking mates are doing similar as they don't have someone to have a pint with. I know this isn't the case with everyone but it is something i've noticed at my local pub and what is happening at several watering holes in my local area.

Prior to the ban, i was against it and wanted us to have the choice but now i think, well i'm cutting back and saving money. The Government will now have to start getting the Tax back some other way and non-smokers will also be coughing (sorry for the pun) up more money.

In Scotland when th ban came in before England. The land lords were reporting takings were up.

Not according to this. Scotland's smoking ban 'drives away regulars' http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2325407,00.html

And according to the Scottish Licensed Trade Association, they cited a 15 per cent drop

In Wales, according to the LVA (Licensed Victuallers Association) 6 months after the ban, they are reporting trade down by 20%. http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/wales-...91466-19938086/

Trade down in England by 10% in the first couple of months and could nose dive even further. Thousands of pubs could close. http://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/news_de...articleid=54382

In Ireland, the first to introduce the ban, hundreds of pubs have closed. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/portal/main.jht...tsmoking123.xml

I haven't been able to find anything about an increase in trade anywhere except that these are mainly traditional pubs but pubs focussing on family and food etc haven't seen much in a downturn.

And apparently, tobacco sales fell by 7% in the first month of the ban in England.

[TAWP]

Tawp: Why is it that that I get the feeling some people here has completely misunderstood what personal freedom means?

It's not the right to piss on the floor in a bar, it's the right to piss on he floor of your home. Or your own bar.

Which leaves the rest of your arguments in the gutter.

Please explain what the difference is between pissing, f@rting and smoking in public place areas. There are all equally disgusting, except my f@rts are better smelling than your smoke and smoke satuarated body and clothes.

I like your concept on personal freedom. I will be more than happy to go to your home and piss on your floor.

You also have the freedom to take a course in 'reading comprehension', you need it.

And you can smoke in your own bar or your own home too - nobody says any different.

you misunderstand what personal freedom means - what about my freedom not to smell your smoke.

not to worry its public places including outside on the street next ;-)))

No, you cannot smoke in your own bar.

Why do you use lies as arguments all the time?

[TAWP]

Why is it that that I get the feeling some people here has completely misunderstood what personal freedom means?

It's not the right to piss on the floor in a bar, it's the right to piss on he floor of your home. Or your own bar.

Or kill others while you are driving pissed?

How do you force somebody to take responsibility for that? And how does it help the dead person(s)?

Don't confuse an ideological standpoint with a decision based on realpolitik.

I would never propose that it would be legal in Thailand, if you catch my drift...

[ketting00]

Someone must have benefit from this law.

[morejunk]

Tawp:

Smoker arguments are simply justifications to impose their disgusting, smelly addiction on others. Smokers have my blessing if they place a plastic bag over their heads and keep their wonderful pleasure to themselves. Smokers should also have to eat the butt when they finish the smoking. Better for the environment. The argument for smoking if exactly the same as my argument for wanting to f@rt very near your face when you are eating in restaurant or drinking in bar. Only a rude jerk would think his offensive and disgusting habits need to forced AND ACCEPTED BY OTHERS.

[TAWP]

Tawp:

Smoker arguments are simply justifications to impose their disgusting, smelly addiction on others. Smokers have my blessing if they place a plastic bag over their heads and keep their wonderful pleasure to themselves. Smokers should also have to eat the butt when they finish the smoking. Better for the environment. The argument for smoking if exactly the same as my argument for wanting to f@rt very near your face when you are eating in restaurant or drinking in bar. Only a rude jerk would think his offensive and disgusting habits need to forced AND ACCEPTED BY OTHERS.

What is the point of posting in the forum if you refuse the read other peoples posts? Is it some form of attention-masturbation?

I'm not a smoker, but I would never force a bar to be smokefree - I would propose they have smoking and non-smoking sections or work for other owners, if the one approached cannot understand the reason, to go smoke-free on their own.

if you want to open a 'fart and burp'-club you are welcome to do so. And it's legal. So far. Just please post a sign on the outside so customers can make an educated choice on where to take their business.

[morejunk]

ketting00: Someone must have benefit from this law.

Daahhh, maybe the non smoking people, who have a "right" to natural smoke free air.

Edited January 14, 2008 by morejunk

[morejunk]

Tawp: clue - air does not naturally contain a significant qauntity of cigarette/cigar smoke. Cigarette smoke is totally un-natural.Why should we be forced to accept the un-natural?

You don't seem to have one, so I gave you one. Please find above.

Edited January 14, 2008 by morejunk

[TAWP]

Tawp: clue - air does not naturally contain a significant qauntity of cigarette/cigar smoke. Cigarette smoke is totally un-natural.Why should we be forced to accept the un-natural?

You don't seem to have one, so I gave you one. Please find above.

Again, you fail to grasp some basic principles.

With your logic it would be alright to outlaw you from having kids since I think you aren't clever enough...

[morejunk]

Tawp: What makes you believe that anyone cares what you think? Your posts read like you are high from smoking marajuana.

I'm out of here. No point in wasting more of my time on you.

[AjarnUan]

I thought that Tawp made it quite clear what exactly "personal freedoms" entail, but a few posters seem unable, or unwilling, to understand.

They do not allow people to roam the streets demanding a random set of rights, and excoriating all those who dare impinge on the sanctity of their personal bubbles.

They do, or should, allow people to engage in legal activities within the confines of their own property, and to grant others those same privileges. Cigarettes are legally sold, and their purpose is to be smoked, and so any bar owner should have the choice of whether or not to allow smoking on the premises, or the choice to segregate smoking smokers from non-smokers.

If morejunk would like to urinate on others or furniture, as he seems so keen to do, he may also open a bar where such behaviour is encouraged.

Similarly, currently people open bars with the understanding that they will have the choice as to whether or not they can serve alcohol (apart from holidays, elections, etc.). Alcohol consumption, like smoking, does not just affect the person ingesting. If I go to a bar that serves alcoholic beverages, I will be subjected to a great deal of noise pollution -- much more so than if the bar did not serve alcohol. Even if I myself was not drinking alcohol, I would be more likely to be drawn into a fight or brawl, due to the relatively bellicose nature of drunken people. A woman going to a bar serving alcohol would be more likely to be subjected to sexual harassment, again, due to the effects of other people drinking alcohol.

And finally, of course, there is drunk driving, which is a much more efficient means of dispatching non-drinkers, than smoking is to killing non-smokers.

Demanding your "personal freedom" to breathe clean air should not, and likely will not, effect a ban on all automobiles. Nor should it do so for the act of smoking on properties that don't belong to you, yet which you voluntarily choose to patronise.

[Prakanong]

Tawp: Why is it that that I get the feeling some people here has completely misunderstood what personal freedom means?

It's not the right to piss on the floor in a bar, it's the right to piss on he floor of your home. Or your own bar.

Which leaves the rest of your arguments in the gutter.

Please explain what the difference is between pissing, f@rting and smoking in public place areas. There are all equally disgusting, except my f@rts are better smelling than your smoke and smoke satuarated body and clothes.

I like your concept on personal freedom. I will be more than happy to go to your home and piss on your floor.

You also have the freedom to take a course in 'reading comprehension', you need it.

And you can smoke in your own bar or your own home too - nobody says any different.

you misunderstand what personal freedom means - what about my freedom not to smell your smoke.

not to worry its public places including outside on the street next ;-)))

No, you cannot smoke in your own bar.

Why do you use lies as arguments all the time?

your own private bar -do I have to spell everything out?

Now go off and drink and drive and do not hold back on the accelorator but with a clear road please.

The fact is smokers are losing the argument on every front - the health front, the freedom for non-smokers not to have to ingest the <deleted> smokers do or their waste

Not to worry though - those basket case states like Afghan, etc will always allow you to smoke - enjoy the air.

[morejunk]

It really scares me that you are a teacher. You rambling reminds me of some teachers that I had in the past. Narrow minded and short sighted with rediculous arguments. You only understand "rights" as defined to fill your own requirements. Smokers are the only ones that have "personal freedoms". Don't non smokers have any rights? What differences does it make that cigarettes are legal. You are still infringing on other people's rights by smoking in confined spaces. Why is it that smokers can't grasp that very simple concept. No different that f@rting in your face while you eat in a restaurant. It is legal, isn't it? It is my right, isn't it? Please, by all means smoke yourself to an early death for I care. Just don't do it in my presence.

Edited January 14, 2008 by morejunk

[TAWP]

prakanong>> When we write 'bar' we don't mean your fridge, we mean a legal entity, a place of business. A company that in many countries needs a liquire license to serve alcohol. These establishments, albeit privately owned, are subject the these laws.

Are you just trolling?

Edited January 14, 2008 by TAWP

[TAWP]

It really scares me that you are a teacher. You rambling reminds me of some teachers that I had in the past. Narrow minded and short sighted with rediculous arguments. You only understand "rights" as defined to fill your own requirements. Smkoers are the only ones that have "personal freedoms". Don't non smokers have any rights? What differences does it make that cigarettes are legal. You are still infringing on other people's rights by smoking in confined spaces. Why is it that smokers can't grasp that very simple concept. No different that f@rting in your face while you eat in a restaurant. It is legal, isn't it? It is my right, isn't it? Please, by all means smoke yourself to an early death for I care. Just don't do it in my presence.

Wasn't you supposed to leave?

But you are again wrong. You aren't infringing on anyones right by smoking, with permission, in a private property.

Just as you are not violating your own mother by farting in her face during dinner, with permission. As must be custom in your family since you bring it up all the time.

In my house it's not allowed and you would be thrown out. And it's my right to throw you out since it's on private property.

Getting it soon?

[dannyman]

You sound to me like a bunch of old fag"s that smell each other"s butts.

[Prakanong]

It really scares me that you are a teacher. You rambling reminds me of some teachers that I had in the past. Narrow minded and short sighted with rediculous arguments. You only understand "rights" as defined to fill your own requirements. Smkoers are the only ones that have "personal freedoms". Don't non smokers have any rights? What differences does it make that cigarettes are legal. You are still infringing on other people's rights by smoking in confined spaces. Why is it that smokers can't grasp that very simple concept. No different that f@rting in your face while you eat in a restaurant. It is legal, isn't it? It is my right, isn't it? Please, by all means smoke yourself to an early death for I care. Just don't do it in my presence.

Wasn't you supposed to leave?

But you are again wrong. You aren't infringing on anyones right by smoking, with permission, in a private property.

Just as you are not violating your own mother by farting in her face during dinner, with permission. As must be custom in your family since you bring it up all the time.

In my house it's not allowed and you would be thrown out. And it's my right to throw you out since it's on private property.

Getting it soon?

The debate boils down to definitions of private property does it not.

You say the owner of a bar should be able to decide if patrons can smoke

I would say that because it is open to the public ie a public place he should have to follow the rules for smoking in a public place.

This argument seems to be followed in the more civilised countries and it a rational approach now accepted buy all but the most obtuse.

[jackspratt]

I thought that Tawp made it quite clear what exactly "personal freedoms" entail, but a few posters seem unable, or unwilling, to understand.

They do not allow people to roam the streets demanding a random set of rights, and excoriating all those who dare impinge on the sanctity of their personal bubbles.

But, in TAWP's world, they apparently do allow people the right to get drunk as a skunk and drive