Trouble On The Dancefloor At Spasso

[backflip]

A guy walks between your friend and a local pro, and he gives a guy shove? He's lucky he didn't get the snot knocked out of him. The Thai guy was rude, and your friend sounds just as bad.

[suricate]

So often people miss the big picture in life. This is not a Thai thing or a western thing. This can happen in any country no matter were your at.

[Travel2003]

99.99% of Thai's will do anything to avoid walking between two people talking to each other, and when there is no way to avoid doing so, will stoop low so as to avoid getting in their faces. Manners are everything.

interesting! but how are we western barbarians supposed to know that Samran? i have read (and memorized) a number of thai "dos and donts" but never came across this one.

Seriously? You have noticed that even if you are sat down people will duck their heads and hurry past, an effort not to be "head higher" or "in your face" to use the western idiom?

Correct.

I see it again and again.

All over Thailand, and many of the other SEA-nations as well.

[chiang mai]

As far as your 99.99% figure is concerned: sadly my experience, during my time in Thailand (and other parts of Asia) is concerned, shows that number to be hugely incorrect. Certainly in many business environments it is true but in social gatherings, formal and otherwise, that is not the case. Walk down any street in any area of any town or city and see what happens when two people are walking together and are faced with oncoming pedestrian traffic, I think we both understand that as does everyone else. I don't mean to suggest that Thai's (or Asians in general) are bad mannered or disrespectful it's just the way the culture is in this region. The need to be first, the need to not give way is massively evident as a pedestrian, as a motorist, as a shop customer waiting for service in a queue, as a passenger boarding a plane and everywhere else you care to think of.

Perhaps you're thinking of Hong Kong, where rudeness is a way of life. Or Singapore, where "kiasu" (afraid of losing) is a way of life.

In Thailand, most people - not 99.99%, but a significant majority, do indeed go out of their way to avoid disturbing you.

If you live in Chiang Mai, and this is your experience, you must live near the Night Bazaar. The rest of Chiang Mai is full of polite people. And it is clear that you do not understand that Asia is not one culture - it's many different cultures as well as many different blends of these cultures. What you're implying is that Asia is like Europe - are all Europeans belligerent?

Perhaps I am confusing aspects of Thai culture with that of HK & Singapore, my homes for many years. Actually I live in Phuket and not Chiang Mai and I have also come to appreciate that Asia is a series of cultures etc etc etc!

Given however that I now accept that "ducking" is practiced by some in Thailand and now I think about it more carefully, it is a little odd that Thai's like many other Asians do not have a sense of priority when it comes to queuing or a sense of precedence when it comes to say, driving. No doubt the experts here will set me straight on this in short order.

[thaiman]

My friend turns and clips Thai man's shoulder in a 'hey don't be so rude' gesture.

This is so western like in the movies, "hey you! how dare you! You should not do that! That is wrong" Thais will never listen to what comes out of a foreigners mouth, especially in the middle of a fight. If you touch a thai in an aggressive manner be sure your intention is to crush him down, not teach him a lesson with words. You friend got what he deserved in LOS. Consider it a learning lesson and move on.

[onethailand]

Perhaps I am confusing aspects of Thai culture with that of HK & Singapore, my homes for many years. Actually I live in Phuket and not Chiang Mai and I have also come to appreciate that Asia is a series of cultures etc etc etc!

That kind of explains it. Phuket is different, and the culture in Phuket is a bit different from Bangkok or Chiang Mai. I'll let the Phuket experts handle this one but suffice it to say they have a bit of a different attitude, as do people in Pattaya and Samui. But they are still not as bad as HK and Singapore

[meemiathai]

Western friend of mine was spending a weekend in Thailand and was in Spasso.

A smallish Thai man barges his way between my friend and the woman he was talking to.

My friend turns and clips Thai man's shoulder in a 'hey don't be so rude' gesture.

Suddenly he's being strangled from behind by some gigantic goon.

Questions:

Is this a real gangster, or just some pillock who can afford to hire protection?

Anyone else had problems with bullies in posh clubs?

He could be a gangster. But most likely not of very high status and is trying to show off power to his peers to get up to higher positions. Those of high status tend to go a little more low profile in my experience. Or he could be just a rich guy who has bodyguards. He was showing off his power by behaving in a way like he is afraid of no one and can do anything there without fear so "don't <deleted> with me".

These things happen a lot in dodgy discos where I used to frequent here in HK.

[Arkady]

In answer to the OP's original question the Thai in question could have been anything: a gangster, a businessman, a military or police officer, a politician or the son of any of the above. What is the difference in Thailand? Anyway his behavious and that of his bodyguard put them squarely in the gangster or gangster wannabe bracket. These people like to show off that they can do whatever they like and, if the worse comes to the worst, they expect their money and connections to sort things out for them and they will be all the more respected and feared for it afterwards.

As part of Western managed 5-star hotel Spassos provides a false sense of security to foreigners. The reality is that the Grand Hyatt staff are thrilled to welcome high spending gangster types with their entourages and bodyguards and couldn't care less about the potential dangers this presents to the lives and limbs of their other guests. It wouldn't occur to them to ask one of these characters or their goons not to come back again for the trifling offence of trying to strangle an ordinary patron and they are certainly more than happy to let them bring their guns in with them.

A couple of years again I was going there fairly often. On one occasion I noticed a group arrive to sit at tables that had been specially set out for them on the edge of the dance floor, even though the dance floor is normally totally cleared of tables and chairs at 10 p.m. At the center of the group was a short dumpy man in his mid 50s with a pony tail and a pock marked face. The rest were a couple of young guys and some pretty girls who looked like rentals. The staff made a big display of opening bottles of red wine for them but I couldn't get close enough to see if it was really anything decent.

All the while several hotel security staff in suits, including a young farang, were fussing around them adjusting ear pieces and making a show of talking into microphones and fantasisiing that the fat pock marked dude was really President Bush. About half an hour later my girlfriend and I were having fun dancing and some goon grabs her shoulder and tells her to dance somewhere else because she was too close to one of the young guys in the group who was dancing with his limbs flailing out in all directions. Luckily she didn't make a fuss or get strangled. So we just paid our bill and left as the fun had been taken out of the evening. A couple of weeks later we saw the same bunch of jerks arrive and got the bill immediately. The next time we left as soon as we saw the waiters setting out the tables and chairs without waiting for them to arrive and we have hardly been back since then.

[Briggsy]

So, Arkady, who was the guy????

[sbk]

He didn't look anything like the young man on the left did he?

if so, I'd keep my distance... and my temper.

[Jimmy in Bangkok]

So often people miss the big picture in life. This is not a Thai thing or a western thing. This can happen in any country no matter were your at.

Exactly suricate! Try doing the same in any night club in any part of the world and it would probably end up with the same result. If someone is rude why do others feel the necessity to return the favour? This is how things escalate out of control very quickly. As for for pushing, shoving, clipping etc someone else then if you do this be prepared for the consequences and don't whinge when you get them.

Cheers

Jimmy

[Amethyst]

My friend turns and clips Thai man's shoulder in a 'hey don't be so rude' gesture.

An Advice to non asian friends in thaivisa.com ''Dont ever clips an asian man's shoulder and say 'hey don't be so rude' gesture.''

Try watch Chinese Gangster movie and you will know the rest lol

[Arkady]

A selection of famous night club incidents springs to mind for those interested in this topic.

1) A Thai architect was brutally beaten unconscious and then shot several times in the head "allegedly" by body guards of a property developer in the karoake of the Montien Hotel.

Ostensible reason: he was hogging the microphone as other tables had offered him their turns and refused to hand over the microphone to the suspects' table after two requests.

Result: acquittal of all the accused, although one of the goons was arrested some time later for illegal possession of a loaded gun in a car and did a short jail sentence of a few months. No one else was ever charged with the murder.

Interesting circumstances: the murder was witnessed by a whole room full of customers, including an off duty police major-general who refused to testify against the suspects. The entire group of suspects was allowed to leave the hotel without anyone calling police to arrest them and they disappeared for a few days. The attorney-general received death threats before the trial.

2) The nephew of a senior Thai diplomat was shot through the face but survived in a now closed hi-so disco called Taurus in Sukhumvit Soi 26. The suspect was the son of a notorious gangster who runs gambling dens in Pratunam.

Ostensible reason: the victim stepped on the suspect's toe.

Result: the suspect was acquitted. No one else was ever charged over the shooting.

Interesting circumstances: a key witnesses for the prosecution was murdered before the trial. No one was ever arrested for his murder.

3) A sergeant in the crime suppression division who had won a national award for crime busting was shot dead at point blank range through the forehead at the disco of the Emerald Hotel in Ratchadpisek. The suspect was Duangchalerm (now plain Duang), son of the politician Chalerm Yoobamrung who was allowed to leave the scene of the crime and disappeared for 10 months before giving himself up.

Ostensible reason: his colleague had stepped on Duangchalerm's toe. The sergeant tried to intervene to break up a row between his colleague and the highly aggrieved owner of the injured toe.

Result: the suspect was acquitted. No one else was ever charged with the murder, although the defense arged that a man believed to be called Puen had slipped into the club, murdered the victim and slipped out again without being seen by anyone else.

Interesting features: Many. Find them in Google.

Do you need any more evidence that "hi-so" nightclubs in Thailand are dangerous places? All them welcome groups of high spending, gun toting gangsters. The few places that have metal detectors are paid to switch them off when the big boys come through. The victims in all these cases were all Thai and none were nobodies without connections by any means. The bullies see it like a game of high stakes poker. If they or their daddies have enough money and influence, they feel confident that are always going to be able to show a better hand than all other gamblers that come up against them whether intentionally or otherwise. Every time they win a high stakes game high their reputation sores amongst the people that matter and their ability to make money, get more power, girls etc is enhanced. Some times their luck runs out like Kamnan Po who is on the lam, sentenced to prison for corruption and wanted for murder. But he had a good run for decades and the story isn't over yet.

There is not enough time to cover lo-so or provincial discos here but suffice it to say that there are shootings in these places every week in Thailand which don't usualy make the English language media. You might not have the distinction of being shot by some one very distinguished in such venues but you could end up just as dead, if you step on the wrong toe or some one is jealous of your girlfriend and demands that she should sleep with him. In a provincial town it will be easier for even a lowly character like a police sergeant or his son to get away with killing you.

[kiakaha]

Western friend of mine was spending a weekend in Thailand and was in Spasso.

A smallish Thai man barges his way between my friend and the woman he was talking to.

My friend turns and clips Thai man's shoulder in a 'hey don't be so rude' gesture.

Suddenly he's being strangled from behind by some gigantic goon.

Questions:

Is this a real gangster, or just some pillock who can afford to hire protection?

Anyone else had problems with bullies in posh clubs?

Spasso posh ? gimme a break. the place is a glorified whore house.

[Arkady]

So, Arkady, who was the guy????

I never found out who he was. My girlfriend didn't recognize him or any one else in the group. I didn't want to ask the staff who were fawningly bringing such filth into the hotel, as I didn't want either to complain or to appear excited about being in the presence of a celeb. I preferred just to stop spending my money there and leave.

[Arkady]

He didn't look anything like the young man on the left did he?

if so, I'd keep my distance... and my temper.

Me too. I would have recognized both of those gentlemen.

[Arkady]

Western friend of mine was spending a weekend in Thailand and was in Spasso.

A smallish Thai man barges his way between my friend and the woman he was talking to.

My friend turns and clips Thai man's shoulder in a 'hey don't be so rude' gesture.

Suddenly he's being strangled from behind by some gigantic goon.

Questions:

Is this a real gangster, or just some pillock who can afford to hire protection?

Anyone else had problems with bullies in posh clubs?

Spasso posh ? gimme a break. the place is a glorified whore house.

Not just Thai hookers either. A friend of mine was once trying to chat up a black girl there who could only speak Spanish which he can't. In my broken Spanish I learned that she was a Colombian on a visa run from some kind of whore house in Macao and had been told by other girls to go to Spassos to turn tricks.

[Arkady]

I seem to once remember hearing a story about a small fight breaking out in a British nightclub. What does this tell us about Western culture?

The Wanchai discos in Hong Kong became much safer after the British forces left. The British squaddies were obnoxious and often looked for trouble and beat people up. The difference is that British thugs are much less likely to carry guns and there is rule of law in the UK (and Hong Kong) which makes it very hard for the guilty to get off. Maybe this is a cultural thing because going back hundreds of years there are many cases of wealthy and influential Brits who have been found guilty of murder and hanged - something unthinkable even in 21st century Thailand.

[siam-i-am]

The title "blood on the dance floor" wrongly gives the impression that someone was seriously injured.

I was trying to work out how the title 'Trouble on the dance floor' could turn into 'Blood on the dance floor' Then noticed you are a SUPER moderator. Says it all.

[CarlBkk]

Arkady, I remember all those incidents you mentioned. I used to go to the Emerald hotel disco, Phuture at the Chao Phraya Park, Taurus, Morgan, NASA etc. On my second ever visit to Bangkok I was taken out as a token farang with a very rich and showy Thai guy and his two Indian friends with drunk driving, tables cleared for them, any girls they wanted, a bodyguard and (i think) drugs on tap. On one occasion the bodyguard refused to let me walk past him and I got freaked out and never went out with the group again. The Emerald hotel, Grand hotel club and most other discos on Ratchada where older men went and white-skinned massage girls (wannabe mia-nois) were places where tension was sometimes felt. Plenty of tables of gangster-looking types there.

However, let's be clear that these hi-so places where sons of so-and-so and bodyguards have nearly been confined to the past, together with deadly incidents. Of course they can occasionally happen and do (the last ones being Duangchalerm at RCA with a farang who then bottled him, and the son of a sergeant at a Ratchada club clashing with security). You just don't see these types with bodyguards at Bed, Qbar, Met, 87 or Baryan Tree nowadays.

I know the guy you're talking about at Spasso. It's the same guy I was talking about who drives a yellow ferrari. He has a goodlooking 40-something partner (plus all the show girls and some invited friends) and used to get his table at Spasso every weekend. When 87 at Conrad opened he moved to there. Now I don't know where he goes, but apparently he's an ex-artist and connected gangster who likes to show off. He's been involved in several incidents on the dancefloor where he gets angry at people mocking his grandad dancing or moving too close, and his bodyguards (who do apparently carry weapons) are close at hand to step in. In a busy 87 I once put my empty bottle on his table while I was standing next to it, while he was on the dancefloor. The bodyguard immediately picked it up and glared at me, and got incredibly frustrated but didn't hand it back to me.

It might be worth asking the farang managers of Spasso and 87 why indeed they kiss ass and ensure this old chap had the prime table and had the full VIP treatment.

[Prakanong]

Arkady, I remember all those incidents you mentioned. I used to go to the Emerald hotel disco, Phuture at the Chao Phraya Park, Taurus, Morgan, NASA etc. On my second ever visit to Bangkok I was taken out as a token farang with a very rich and showy Thai guy and his two Indian friends with drunk driving, tables cleared for them, any girls they wanted, a bodyguard and (i think) drugs on tap. On one occasion the bodyguard refused to let me walk past him and I got freaked out and never went out with the group again. The Emerald hotel, Grand hotel club and most other discos on Ratchada where older men went and white-skinned massage girls (wannabe mia-nois) were places where tension was sometimes felt. Plenty of tables of gangster-looking types there.

However, let's be clear that these hi-so places where sons of so-and-so and bodyguards have nearly been confined to the past, together with deadly incidents. Of course they can occasionally happen and do (the last ones being Duangchalerm at RCA with a farang who then bottled him, and the son of a sergeant at a Ratchada club clashing with security). You just don't see these types with bodyguards at Bed, Qbar, Met, 87 or Baryan Tree nowadays.

I know the guy you're talking about at Spasso. It's the same guy I was talking about who drives a yellow ferrari. He has a goodlooking 40-something partner (plus all the show girls and some invited friends) and used to get his table at Spasso every weekend. When 87 at Conrad opened he moved to there. Now I don't know where he goes, but apparently he's an ex-artist and connected gangster who likes to show off. He's been involved in several incidents on the dancefloor where he gets angry at people mocking his grandad dancing or moving too close, and his bodyguards (who do apparently carry weapons) are close at hand to step in. In a busy 87 I once put my empty bottle on his table while I was standing next to it, while he was on the dancefloor. The bodyguard immediately picked it up and glared at me, and got incredibly frustrated but didn't hand it back to me.

It might be worth asking the farang managers of Spasso and 87 why indeed they kiss ass and ensure this old chap had the prime table and had the full VIP treatment.

Sorry - who bottled who, "the last ones being Duangchalerm at RCA with a farang who then bottled him"?

I also thought there was an incident with him or one of his brothers at Q Club a couple of years ago with a farang?

[mikethevigoman]

Western friend of mine was spending a weekend in Thailand and was in Spasso.

A smallish Thai man barges his way between my friend and the woman he was talking to.

My friend turns and clips Thai man's shoulder in a 'hey don't be so rude' gesture.

Suddenly he's being strangled from behind by some gigantic goon.

Questions:

Is this a real gangster, or just some pillock who can afford to hire protection?

Anyone else had problems with bullies in posh clubs?

Spasso posh ? gimme a break. the place is a glorified whore house.

Not just Thai hookers either. A friend of mine was once trying to chat up a black girl there who could only speak Spanish which he can't. In my broken Spanish I learned that she was a Colombian on a visa run from some kind of whore house in Macao and had been told by other girls to go to Spassos to turn tricks.

A friend of mine befriended a big winnie mandella of a girl in there ,she said she was on holiday with a friend from libya, but asked him for 2000 baht and 20 baht for the taxi in the morning, how strange

[tattoodrob]

Arkady, I remember all those incidents you mentioned. I used to go to the Emerald hotel disco, Phuture at the Chao Phraya Park, Taurus, Morgan, NASA etc. On my second ever visit to Bangkok I was taken out as a token farang with a very rich and showy Thai guy and his two Indian friends with drunk driving, tables cleared for them, any girls they wanted, a bodyguard and (i think) drugs on tap. On one occasion the bodyguard refused to let me walk past him and I got freaked out and never went out with the group again. The Emerald hotel, Grand hotel club and most other discos on Ratchada where older men went and white-skinned massage girls (wannabe mia-nois) were places where tension was sometimes felt. Plenty of tables of gangster-looking types there.

However, let's be clear that these hi-so places where sons of so-and-so and bodyguards have nearly been confined to the past, together with deadly incidents. Of course they can occasionally happen and do (the last ones being Duangchalerm at RCA with a farang who then bottled him, and the son of a sergeant at a Ratchada club clashing with security). You just don't see these types with bodyguards at Bed, Qbar, Met, 87 or Baryan Tree nowadays.

I know the guy you're talking about at Spasso. It's the same guy I was talking about who drives a yellow ferrari. He has a goodlooking 40-something partner (plus all the show girls and some invited friends) and used to get his table at Spasso every weekend. When 87 at Conrad opened he moved to there. Now I don't know where he goes, but apparently he's an ex-artist and connected gangster who likes to show off. He's been involved in several incidents on the dancefloor where he gets angry at people mocking his grandad dancing or moving too close, and his bodyguards (who do apparently carry weapons) are close at hand to step in. In a busy 87 I once put my empty bottle on his table while I was standing next to it, while he was on the dancefloor. The bodyguard immediately picked it up and glared at me, and got incredibly frustrated but didn't hand it back to me.

It might be worth asking the farang managers of Spasso and 87 why indeed they kiss ass and ensure this old chap had the prime table and had the full VIP treatment.

i presume they(farangs) "kiss ass" because they have a business to make money and this guy probabaly spends a lot so he gets the so called vip treatment and the thai managers/staff will get good tips so they will ensure he is looked after regardless .................its all a load of showy b o l l o cks......which is what thais with money like!!!

he probably dont go there anymore coz he didnt get his table one night or run out of money!!!

its funny you say ex-artist and gangsta in same sentance.....as the two dont normally go hand in hand but hey this is thailand...more like the wild west if you ask me.

[CarlBkk]

Prakanong, at RCA a luk kreung model tried to befriend Chalerm by talking about a football match. Chalerm didn't feel very friendly and later came to the guy's table and slapped his head a few times. One of the model's friends thought this was a bit rude and therefore managed to hit him with a bottle whilst the rest of the groups struggled with each other. I wasn't there, but this was how it was reported.

I did hear about an incident with him at Qbar too a couple of years back, but didn't hear of anyone who actually saw it happen in person: some quarrel over flirting with a girl I think inside, which then went outside with the carpark attendant beating the farang. The farang and his friends then got in their car and drove at Chalerm's group, apparently jamming him against a wall, before speeding off. Again...a friend of a friend of a friend's account.

[meemiathai]

So are people here saying that there are no such things in farangland? There seems to be a lot of shootings in nightclubs in the west showing on youtube.

I was once in a nightclub in London. A young guy was chatting with my sister when I walked up to them. The moment he saw me coming he started looking very nervous. My sister told him that I was his brother, within seconds he disappeared like a mouse having seen a cat. That made me wonder if it was that dangerous there.

[meemiathai]

In answer to the OP's original question the Thai in question could have been anything: a gangster, a businessman, a military or police officer, a politician or the son of any of the above. What is the difference in Thailand? Anyway his behavious and that of his bodyguard put them squarely in the gangster or gangster wannabe bracket. These people like to show off that they can do whatever they like and, if the worse comes to the worst, they expect their money and connections to sort things out for them and they will be all the more respected and feared for it afterwards.

As part of Western managed 5-star hotel Spassos provides a false sense of security to foreigners. The reality is that the Grand Hyatt staff are thrilled to welcome high spending gangster types with their entourages and bodyguards and couldn't care less about the potential dangers this presents to the lives and limbs of their other guests. It wouldn't occur to them to ask one of these characters or their goons not to come back again for the trifling offence of trying to strangle an ordinary patron and they are certainly more than happy to let them bring their guns in with them.

A couple of years again I was going there fairly often. On one occasion I noticed a group arrive to sit at tables that had been specially set out for them on the edge of the dance floor, even though the dance floor is normally totally cleared of tables and chairs at 10 p.m. At the center of the group was a short dumpy man in his mid 50s with a pony tail and a pock marked face. The rest were a couple of young guys and some pretty girls who looked like rentals. The staff made a big display of opening bottles of red wine for them but I couldn't get close enough to see if it was really anything decent.

All the while several hotel security staff in suits, including a young farang, were fussing around them adjusting ear pieces and making a show of talking into microphones and fantasisiing that the fat pock marked dude was really President Bush. About half an hour later my girlfriend and I were having fun dancing and some goon grabs her shoulder and tells her to dance somewhere else because she was too close to one of the young guys in the group who was dancing with his limbs flailing out in all directions. Luckily she didn't make a fuss or get strangled. So we just paid our bill and left as the fun had been taken out of the evening. A couple of weeks later we saw the same bunch of jerks arrive and got the bill immediately. The next time we left as soon as we saw the waiters setting out the tables and chairs without waiting for them to arrive and we have hardly been back since then.

I feel you have made it sound like more dangerous it actually is. Of course it is important how one behaves though.

[Prakanong]

Prakanong, at RCA a luk kreung model tried to befriend Chalerm by talking about a football match. Chalerm didn't feel very friendly and later came to the guy's table and slapped his head a few times. One of the model's friends thought this was a bit rude and therefore managed to hit him with a bottle whilst the rest of the groups struggled with each other. I wasn't there, but this was how it was reported.

I did hear about an incident with him at Qbar too a couple of years back, but didn't hear of anyone who actually saw it happen in person: some quarrel over flirting with a girl I think inside, which then went outside with the carpark attendant beating the farang. The farang and his friends then got in their car and drove at Chalerm's group, apparently jamming him against a wall, before speeding off. Again...a friend of a friend of a friend's account.

Thanls - I have some vague reccolection of the RCA one - it was a thread on one Thai board with someone who had been there.

[CarlBkk]

You're right, in the West if you want to show off you still have to book your table and pay the money. If you don't someone else will get it. In this situation there was no chance of anyone else getting his table or the same service...not the manager's best friend, the DJ or the CEO with an expense account. I think it had more to do with the managers getting scared of keeping "in" with people like this, which is fine if he's managing a small restaurant..but it's a hotel club. It's always going to be busy. Quite shameful I think, and only feeds the egos further of guys like this.

He considered 87 to be "trendier" than Spasso so moved there apparently. He wanted to be known. A friend who knew him slightly gave me the information that he used to be a famous artist doing work for important people, and was therefore "looked after". Very strange how an artist can turn out like that.

[ignoramus]

I don't recall seeing the phrase 'blood on the dancefloor' anywhere in the OP. Was the title changed?

May I assume that I may call a poster a 'goon' and an 'idiot' with impunity or without censure?

[sbk]

I don't recall seeing the phrase 'blood on the dancefloor' anywhere in the OP. Was the title changed?

May I assume that I may call a poster a 'goon' and an 'idiot' with impunity or without censure?

Yes, the original title was "Blood on the dance floor" and no, you may not call a poster a goon or an idiot...